Political Debate

[Axel]

Membrane, I do like your last post.

This is the way it should be. "how people from other parts of the world see things,"

is one reason why I spent my time in this board. The feedback is by far more interesting than anything else.

I know, I repeat myself, I do not want to do bashing. I have an opinion which I am willing to share and to discuss. If finally we cannot agree, OK, fine with me, but both sides should try to explain their feeelings. No hate, no 'idiots' just because of another opinion.

BTW, I do like your new (old) avatar by far better than the 'flag'.

[the gentleman]

see what I mean IT..........

[Membrane]

Membrane, I do like your last post.

This is the way it should be. "how people from other parts of the world see things,"

is one reason why I spent my time in this board. The feedback is by far more interesting than anything else.

I know, I repeat myself, I do not want to do bashing. I have an opinion which I am willing to share and to discuss. If finally we cannot agree, OK, fine with me, but both sides should try to explain their feeelings. No hate, no 'idiots' just because of another opinion.

BTW, I do like your new (old) avatar by far better than the 'flag'.

Thanks Axel and yes, I agree with you about being able to share opinions, discussing and if we don't agree, that's OK, as long as we've tried to really communicate. Even though you and I disagree on some things, I would like to be able to have a rational conversation with you and others, without all the inflammatory remarks (not coming from you, coming from someone else and we all know who it is). Maybe we can get there, but I don't see any way it's possible with the one primary trouble maker who keeps stirring things up.

[Membrane]

Just in case... just in case there is any thought of perceiving this as only between Butterfly and myself, let me first say it's not. There are many others who have been insulted and offended: SoCal, Boon Mee, Georgie-Porgie, etc. So if there's any thought of kicking me and Butterfly off, it would have to also include more than myself.

Yeah, it gets under my skin and someone needs to counter his remarks. It's a little difficult when, like I said, Butterfly consistently resorts to name calling, stupid one-liners and baiting, calling anyone who doesn't agree with him a "NeoCon" (an American who wants to take over the world with the help of the Jews), a "coward", "Right Wing Facist", a "Bush ass kisser", a "Redneck", or a "Neo-nazi"... (All those come from Butterfly's previous posts--anyone who wants to read them, can).

One more time: here is (verbatim) my post from December 23rd, in the "you're Asian" thread, which sums up everything I'd like to say on this topic:

"I had actually suggested, quite some time ago, that a entirely separate area be created for political discussions. That way, if someone makes an extremely offensive and/or a stupid remark (like Bush should be killed) then that is at least contained in an area where you would at least you might expect it. It would quarantine it and it would not be in an area necessarily frequented by those who are planning a vacation in Thailand.

I can certainly "behave" myself--if everyone else does too. But to be fair, that should include everyone, not just the little guys but everyone, regular users, admins, everyone. (In fact, especially the admins. They have a responsiblity not to "lower" themselves to such remarks). I can do without having my country slammed at every turn and I can certainly be happy with not discussing politics at all.

Thanks,

Membrane "

[dr_Pat_Pong]

There is possibly a chance IT ...this topic was cogently argued, remained on topic, and didn't deteriorate into the usual kack fight associated with the word politics. We can do it I think.

[Guest IT Manager]

see what I mean IT..........

In fact I haven't had a problem with anything said so far. I am seeing reasonable points being raised and dealt with on several levels.

There certainly have been times when Membrane and Butterfly get into their respective corners and slog out, now all they are doing is exercising their views in public, but so far no name calling..

We are actully considering doing this by the way, Including Thai Politics, with certain embedded rules which will be strictly enforced, but essentially using the forum to extend users political viewpoints into the open, where perhaps the powers that be can see them, read and reply even, and maybe get a handle on what people see as the reasons we live here.

It's not a done deal, but the idea is certainly being bandied about.

[Candyflip]

If we can discuss about expat life,nightscene,scam,etc in this forum, why not politic?

Politic might be easy to lead posters fighting among eachother because the answers mostly come from personal opinion, not base on (purely) fact like visa issues and so on. Too often, people try to make themseves ( look) better than others by insulting.

In my humble opinion, the politic can be discussed here but personal attrack and insulting please use PM!

[Guest ka1234]

Uncensored Thai politics: yes.

World / other countries: there are other forums for that.

[francois]

hi' all

sure we should be able to talk about almost everything, but a fact remains, when the thread is a little hot, it always turn to a word fight, and as I said one day, it's so easy behind a screen ...

in any other place, we could discuss anything, with some reserve, that I guess we all have, at least a bit ...

but here, it seems to me it's far too hot, and we have seen about US and irak already.

don't you think, it's enough?

we have so many other things to talk about, and surely more interesting than politics ... even thai's one

francois

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Uncensored Thai politics: yes.

Because of the tendency for members to flame and make wild allegations, I cannot accept uncensored political comment as the way to go. Altogether too

dangerous. Besides freedom of speech, one has to consider just who from tv runs the risk of prison

[Pink Mist]

I can see where you are coming from Francois as I cant remember seeing a derogatory post from you but let them slog it out within reason it is amusing no!

[Guest IT Manager]

I disagree Francois. I thik politics is a subject to be discussed in an informed and mature way. Membrane and Butterfly both have reasoned responses to the questions asked and the suggestion made, to a point where Doc and I both think it's a viable idea.

[marquess]

I am not suprised that the "pro-Bush" of the board want the political debate shutdown. After all, they are only following what their beloved leader is doing at home with the opposition. They are very logic in that sense. See, no debate, no opposition, no problem. This is the typical "coward" attitude of people who can't debate properly because they know they have little arguments.

I fully agree with the above comments

It seems to me that this debate has largely come about because of the increasingly polorised world in which we live in. Mainly brought about by the Right Wing foreign policy of Bush and company. As he said," you either with us or against us". There seems to be alot of people who don't like the against us part. This is a dicussion forum and I see no reason why these matters should not be discussed here; as they are having an effect on all of us, whether we like it or not.

Should the board decide against such debate, this forum will be much POORER for it.

[Thaiquila]

I've been quite for awhile but now I can't help myself. I find it a little odd and distressing that the bulk of the opposition to open political debate on this Thailand related board is from PRO BUSH Americans. Well, this board certainly isn't only for Americans, and I think overly sensitive Americans should get over themselves, and try to understand why there is so much anti-Americanism in the world. Ironic, isn't it, from the so called freedom fighters and liberators.

To understand my politcal context, I am a pro American, ANTI BUSH American who thinks Bush is the most distastrous president in American history.

[Guest IT Manager]

Uncensored Thai politics: yes.

Because of the tendency for members to flame and make wild allegations, I cannot accept uncensored political comment as the way to go. Altogether too

dangerous. Besides freedom of speech, one has to consider just who from tv runs the risk of prison

This is the actual nub of the issue. You guys as members have been saying you either want no debate, reasoned debate, or open flaming. Therein lies anarchy first, and comeuppance second. The comeuppance however goes to George and in a less obvious way, to advertisers and/or admins.

I personally enjoy political debate immensely. I have won and lost more arguments over politics and religion than anything else. (including whether Singapore is actually part of Malaysia, believe it or not).

The decision to go with a political thread will be made at some stage this weekend. The issue is currently under discussion, and when the decision is reached a set of terms will be posted, and will be very, very strictly enforced. This is our means of protection.

Far Eastern Economic Review, you may remember felt the ire of the powers that be over one article. This is a silly little forum in an out of the way part of the Internet, but it is well looked after and we try to keep it on track.

I have been really stupid a few times with things I have said, and to those who were addressed in them, you have my apologies. It won't re-occur. I have some people I do not get on well with and they know who they are and why I dislike them, but they will tell you, they don't suffer forever for annoying me, and usually if they have annoyed me, they have annoyed others, both admins and users.

My view is, for the record, go ahead and get political. Don't name names in Thailand, at all, unless it is relevant and is not a personal abuse of the person.

Discuss political issues of concern, not cultural issues that don't change, don't commit lese majeste, and don't flame the PM. Address policies not personalities. Let's see how it goes. Get personal, get moderated. Get really silly and get banned.

[george]

Uncensored Thai politics: yes.

Because of the tendency for members to flame and make wild allegations, I cannot accept uncensored political comment as the way to go. Altogether too

dangerous. Besides freedom of speech, one has to consider just who from tv runs the risk of prison

This is the actual nub of the issue. You guys as members have been saying you either want no debate, reasoned debate, or open flaming. Therein lies anarchy first, and comeuppance second. The comeuppance however goes to George and in a less obvious way, to advertisers and/or admins.

I personally enjoy political debate immensely. I have won and lost more arguments over politics and religion than anything else. (including whether Singapore is actually part of Malaysia, believe it or not).

The decision to go with a political thread will be made at some stage this weekend. The issue is currently under discussion, and when the decision is reached a set of terms will be posted, and will be very, very strictly enforced. This is our means of protection.

Far Eastern Economic Review, you may remember felt the ire of the powers that be over one article. This is a silly little forum in an out of the way part of the Internet, but it is well looked after and we try to keep it on track.

I have been really stupid a few times with things I have said, and to those who were addressed in them, you have my apologies. It won't re-occur. I have some people I do not get on well with and they know who they are and why I dislike them, but they will tell you, they don't suffer forever for annoying me, and usually if they have annoyed me, they have annoyed others, both admins and users.

My view is, for the record, go ahead and get political. Don't name names in Thailand, at all, unless it is relevant and is not a personal abuse of the person.

Discuss political issues of concern, not cultural issues that don't change, don't commit lese majeste, and don't flame the PM. Address policies not personalities. Let's see how it goes. Get personal, get moderated. Get really silly and get banned.

This actually summarize my views of this issue as well. We will discuss it and revert to you here.

[Adjan]

Now, in that world, everything is linked more than ever. Politic, economy, tourism... everything is linked even shrimps and planes... Often because main actors of those different parts are the same people.

Discuss about any subject exepting politic (or any other aspect) will be frustrating and inexact, like to try to talk about politic exepting economic aspect or other matters.

As for me, you can insult me or bash me. It will be a good indicator for me to know with who I'm talking.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Well put IT

[Georgie-Porgie]

Thaiquila, you claim, "I find it a little odd and distressing that the bulk of the opposition to open political debate on this Thailand related board is from PRO BUSH Americans".

That is simply not true.

I, for one, have mentioned that I am not particularly pro-Bush. My parents were Massachusetts (Kennedy) Democrats and I have voted that way all my life. However, I would find it incredibly stupid to condemn a good President, simply because he is a Republican, or simply because he is conservative. As I've also said, I think that, so far, Bush has risen to the job and is doing a good job under incredibly difficult and unusual circumstances.

I've gone back and read all of Membrane's posts and I do not get the idea that he is particularly pro-Bush either. All I see is a very articulate, thinking person who knows very well that the U.S. is not perfect, but thinks that, in general, our leaders are trying to do the right thing.

In fact, I see very few posts from "Love it or leave it" types, so it is rather self-defeating to try painting us that way.

The reason that I find most of the Anti-American posts on this board so offensive is the lack of thinking that went into them. Your advice, that "I try to understand the anti-American point of view" would be sensible, if the posters ever had anything to new say, something that I hadn't heard parroted 1,000 times before, but they never do.

As it is, I find most of what these types have to say to be already common knowledge, blatant B.S., or, most often, grammatically incomprehensible (Butterfly, kwiz117).

[Guest IT Manager]

As it is, I find most of what these types have to say to be already common knowledge, blatant B.S., or, most often, grammatically incomprehensible (Butterfly, kwiz117).

Good points except for that. Kwiz does alright with what is at best his second and more likely third language.

How is your Thai after all the years you have lived here?

Delve through 90% of Kwiz's stuff he asks appropriate questions that tend to seek answers specific to his situation in the world, and particularly Thailand.

At the end of the day, as others have said, the nature of Politics in a global view is, we are all effected by the actions of a very few people. Surely it is reasonable to seek some sort of "big picture" view of how it effects us living here.

Remember APEC? Just having the conference here affected our lives in various ways.

The posts that have got up my nose on occasion have been dealt with in a thoughtful way, by all admins. Thats why I have tried to get the political thread up.

A few thoughts though, it has meant rewriting the ToS for the whole board. It has meant saying this will be stuck to like glue, to protect the Forum. No crying foul. You post something that goes against it, it's gone. Simple as that.

[Membrane]

I've been quite for awhile but now I can't help myself. I find it a little odd and distressing that the bulk of the opposition to open political debate on this Thailand related board is from PRO BUSH Americans.  Well, this board certainly isn't only for Americans, and I think overly sensitive Americans should get over themselves, and try to understand why there is so much anti-Americanism in the world. Ironic, isn't it, from the so called freedom fighters and liberators.

To understand my politcal context, I am a pro American, ANTI BUSH American who thinks Bush is the most distastrous president in American history.

Thaiquila, I find it distressing that you still don't understand what my beef is... So again, allow me to clarify:

1) I'm not PRO-BUSH. I'm not ANTI-Bush. I switched from lurking to posting because there was such a strongly skewed and one-sided perception of what America was trying to do in the world, that I thought I would step in and try to present what I percieve my government to be doing. Did I say I necessarily agreed with everything the Bush administration is doing? No. The perception of me being pro-Bush was promulgated by Butterfly, so he could try to dodge my (very valid) arguments I was making against him and so he could try to paint me in a light that he thought would discredit me (maybe because he just didn't know how else to counter what I was saying and he had little or no come back)? As I've said before, I don't belong to any particular party (Democrat or Republican) and I didn't vote for Bush. That's not to say I don't agree with some of the things he has done though.

2) How can you (or anyone else) possibly keep a straight face and say I'm an "over-sensitive American" or that Butterfly has not "gotten personal" with the attacks, when he has repeatedly said things like "America deserves another 9-11 attack" or that "Bush ought to be shot" or that "America is a shit hole" or that "all Americans are ignorant red-necks"? If I said those sort of things to you, wouldn't you be offended?? Of course you would. And why is it, that not one of you, who disagrees with Mr. Bush, has ever "called" Butterfly on remarks like this? Is it because you actually agree with such outrageous remarks like this? Or is it that (for whatever reason) you don't mind simply sitting quietly and idly by, not worrying about coming to the defense of an American?

And... wouldn't you be just a little sensitive, if it was your country always being picked on? OK, I understand you don't like what Bush is doing. OK. I GOT IT. Now, how about the rest of the country? Don't you realize we're more than Mr. Bush? Can't you acknowledge the good things we've done for the world? Why categorize the entire country, isn't that a form of bigotry? Why allow someone like Butterfly to continue to rant and rave, saying we should be destroyed and attacked by terrorists?

And how about if, anytime you tried to counter a point in an argument or discuss anything new, the best you would get would be to be called a "NeoCon" (an American who wants to take over the world with the help of the Jews), a "coward", a "Right Wing Facist", a "Bush ass kisser", a "Redneck", or a "Neo-nazi"? (All those come from Butterfly's previous posts--anyone who wants to read them, can). Would you like to be called similar names? Why is it you've never "called" Butterfly on remarks like this? Is it because you actually agree with such outrageous remarks like this? Or is it that (for whatever reason) you don't mind simply sitting quietly and idly by, not worrying about coming to the defense of an American?

In case you hadn't noticed, yes, I'm repeating parts of my earlier posts, because--for whatever reason--I don't seem to be getting my point through. (If you aren't referring to me in your earlier post, then excuse me and forgive me! But I am the loudest voice here, protesting all this, so I have to assume...)

Again, all I've been saying is we either 1) ban all political talk altogether or 2) allow it but isolate it to it's own section (and with a warning label, something like "Enter at Your Own Risk"), so the ugly shit fights don't bloody up the rest of the forum and make it look like we're all a bunch of lunatics here. I also think we should try to discuss world politics without the nasty, hate-filled remarks like I've listed above.

[Georgie-Porgie]

MR. ######, I am sorry, but I respectfully disagree. MY Thai is pretty good, but that is not the point. The truth is that I would be a fool, insulting a bunch of Thai native speakers concerning their country. One thing that I have learned here, is that no matter how good my Thai gets, I'll never be a native speaker. Consequently, as far as I am concerned, anyone silly enough to crawl into the ring and insult both me and my country, better be prepared to take what is coming.

In other words, kwiz117 made his bed, so he has to lie in it.

But the main thing is that much of the time, I can not make out what kwiz117 is saying, at all. He's jumping up and down like he scored a point, and what he said is not comprehensible to anyone but him. I'm sorry, but again, he crawled into the ring. I am perfectly willing to point out his inadequacies in the English language if it is hindering a fair debate, and if I have no idea what he is trying to say, otherwise, how can I respond logically? If one wants to debate, one better have the tools, or keep a very low profile.

[Guest IT Manager]

I will give 2 specific points: 1) Kwiz does make rather a hash of English Grammar, quite regularly, 2) He did on occasion lash out at Mr Bush.

He lashed out particularly at the effects the actions of Mr Bush were having on THE WORLD, a large round object in the sky, which contains about 6 billion folks, of whom Mr Bush is President of about 240 million. Also the USA covers what, 8% of the worlds surface? Roughly?

Mr Bush decides on a picnic in a playground which was not his because he said it had something he didn't feel they should have. WMD. He knew they had them, because his friends had shown him the invoices for their sale.

If Mr Bush had said "we are really sick of Mr Hussein sop we are going to send a lot of young chaps to kill him and his sons", he would have had quite a bit more support in my opinion. Certainly more than he eventually got. In fact what he did was use a bare faced lie to go in and try to kill Mr Hussein.

Kwiz felt that the aforementioned actions had or will have wider consequences. I agree. I also feel that reasoned debate on this issue has been a long time coming. I don't mean prancing around, I mean serious bilateral (both ways) debate, without handwringing or mudslinging.

This is my opinion on the matter. Mr Bush did a thing which his fathers friends saw was good. The Friends are now doing the thing they are noted for most: living off the interest accruing to the deed.

In the long run, it is not Mr Bush who will pay, nor his fathers' friends. It is the man on the street, who travels, and further, he will pay dearly.

[Butterfly]

In case you hadn't noticed, yes, I'm repeating parts of my earlier posts, because--for whatever reason--I don't seem to be getting my point through to you.  (If you aren't referring to me, in your earlier post, then excuse me and forgive me!  But I am the loudest voice here, protesting all this, so I have to assume...)

Yeah, we have noticed but you are not convincing anyone. I like it when you say "I am not Pro-Bush" but still you recite his propaganda like it was the bible. Is this not total "dishonesty" then I don't know what it is. Your attitude is "hypocrite", nothing else. Claim one thing, do another. Nice try. At least I call a cat a cat, not something else. You are "Pro-Bush", why don't you like that label ? nothing to be ashamed of, right ?

Let me give you a small analogy below of our exchange of ideas during our political debates and you might see what's wrong with you and your arguments.

YOU: Raping women and children is fun. Btw I am American.

ME: No it's not. I can't believe you are saying this. Are you a total idiot ?

YOU: What ? what's wrong ? why is it not fun to rape women and children ? If I can do it, why shouldn't I ?

ME: Because "morality" and "social behaviors" in a "civilized" society does not allow such things. Need a link ? It's not because you can do it that you have to do it.

YOU: you are just saying this because you are Anti-American and you don't like me. Americans have the rights to do whatever they want.

ME: No you don't have that right and you are an idiot if you think you do

YOU: You are definitely anti-American and I am tired of people like you who don't understand us or don't want to support us. For God sake, we had 911. We are "good" guys and we are doing "good" things (reminder: raping children and women)

ME: Sure you are. What world do you live in ? War is Peace ? 911 ? what that got to do with it ?

Now keep reading this in a loop Membrane & Co. until you get it, then you can get back to me.

[Butterfly]

Mr Bush decides on a picnic in a playground which was not his because  he said it had something he didn't feel they should have. WMD. He knew they had them, because his friends had shown him the invoices for their sale.

hahahaha !!! this is pretty funny. And this is exactly it. Remember the UN incident in the begining of January last year when the US Defense Department seize ALL the Iraq Compliance Reports from the UN security council because it had the address and "special" contact info of all the US companies that provided all kind of "Chemical weapons" and war machinery to Iraq ? I think Cheney company was mentioned with some other more embarassing things.

Gotta love Saddam for his sense of humor

[Pink Mist]

here we go again

[Georgie-Porgie]

Mr. ######, sorry to disagree once again, but, you are not telling me what kwiz117 thinks. You are telling me what YOU think. However it is informative for all of us to know your true feelings on the subject.

If you want to add your 2 cents, that is fine, but since you are also an administrator, don't you think that kwiz117 should be covering his own butt?

As to your opinions on the matter, I have been putting off lunch for 2 hours, but, if you want, I will quite happily cover your points after I've dined!

Snipped..personal insult... welcome the new day

[Khun ?]

Just ruffle some feathers and you will see what comes out and most of the time

is if you seem to be a hint of american it will be immediately dispensed. I wouldn't drink with a soldier to whatever snide remark that can tie you to the flavor.

Who really cares, just fire back. We have people that can barely tend their own

life let alone millions of others. Armchair politics is just that, mean spirted and derogitory. How many of these same people wouldn't do <deleted> for their own families back home but will run off and be a saviour to these poor thais. I think we are all guilty of our own systematic bigotry in some form. You do not like my english to being pro american let me have it. I like cold beer just like the rest and that is probably the only thing most of us will agree on. It has been a great holiday anyway and I hope some enjoyed their trips to Land of stupid, as we are. I am surprised some of the people on this board would even go to a foreign country let alone a foreign chat site then expect perfect english. After this they tell you they have lived in Thailand for years. The jokes on all of us so lets enjoy it if it gets personal get a little tougher skin. I like to see the scrambling of know it all's that can only relate their experience to tv and newspapers. Look at what we have here.

How many people a week are trying to get info on how they can move to foreign country when they cannot afford their own country. We are mess and an accident waiting to happen in most cases. Then we are going to lead Thailand to prosperity, yeah right. We may make the local bar or a few days easier for the locals but we definetly are not the saviour of all man kind regardles of how many years we have been reading books and judging others to our own standards. I guess we just continue to blame others and make our own failures appear to be because of someone else. What do we actually expect from some of the dialogue we get into. I am guilty as charged. Have a nice life anyway.

[the gentleman]

lets get ready to rumble!

[Thaiquila]

Well here goes the political discussion again ...

I actually think this should be in another string, so I want to keep my reaction sort of brief.

The only thing that I have approved of in Bush's leadership is his going after Al Queda after 911.

Otherwise, I really can't think of one of his actions, foreign or domestic, that I approve of.

So from my point of view, any American who does not clearly see that Bush's leadership has been a disaster is pro Bush.

When I hear unreasonable America bashing, I don't feel any need to respond. We are still the world's largest economy with the world's strongest military, so we can take the criticism. To my mind, the American voters brought this on themselves by the mistake they made by electing Bush. I can only hope they fix this error.

Speaking of 911. There is no justification for 911 and it deserved to be avenged.

However, Bush and his neoconservative, neo-fascist cronies have cynically used 911 as an EXCUSE to start a war, repress domestic freedoms, ignore domestic social issues, and to try to bamboozle their way into a second term.

And by the way, the term neoconservative is descriptive and I don't agree that there is any connection to Jewish issues, just because some of the thinkers behind this ideology happen to be Jewish. Is communism Jewish because Marx was? Please.