25 Resort Owners Told To Demolish Their Structures; Thai National Park Chief

[whybother]

Especially I don't think the current action from the RFD is politically motivated. The recently elected PM is BJT so people talked of retaliation from PT, but the timing is not right.

I think it's more the case of an administration taking advantage of the political vacuum between two governments to consolidating its influence over a cash cow. Like B Clinton used to say, it's about the economy, stupid !

"The recently elected PM is BJT so people talked of retaliation from PT"

Clarification please???

[JurgenG]

Especially I don't think the current action from the RFD is politically motivated. The recently elected PM is BJT so people talked of retaliation from PT, but the timing is not right.

I think it's more the case of an administration taking advantage of the political vacuum between two governments to consolidating its influence over a cash cow. Like B Clinton used to say, it's about the economy, stupid !

"The recently elected PM is BJT so people talked of retaliation from PT"

Clarification please???

Sorry, typing mistake. The recently elected local MP (not PM) is BJT.

At least someone is reading my posts, thank you

[gregb]

Interesting that these government officials have found their voice now that the Democrats were defeated in the election.

I hope these people stick to their demands and restore the national parks. If the polluters and encroachers incur a loss, too bad.

Actually I suspect what set this whole thing off was the destruction of Surayud's vacation home. Once you've done that, it is hard to justify giving special privileges to everyone else.

Probably about the only thing the red shirts ever did that could be considered a good thing.

But I do at least wish the media would point this out so those who feel it is unfair to enforce the law can understand exactly how this whole thing came to pass.

[EyesWideOpen]

This is such a classic look at Thailand, and what is fundamentally wrong with this country......... The government officials that have let all this development occur suddenly look like they are fighting for the good of the Thai people by protecting the forest areas. The reality is that the officials will be able to extract more money from the resorts. I already stated in an earlier post that not ONE brick will be removed. Now I see that instead of the usual Thai solution of letting these problems quietly go away, the new solution is to redraw the forest preserve line.....

I am always amazed that a country that prizes face so much on a personal level, loses face at the governmental level on a massive and ongoing level. Guess I will have to file that concept under Mysterious Thailand.....

[hehehoho]

asked to show their Sor Por Kor title deeds to RFD officials to prove their ownership of the land

A nice little earner for the boys down the deed's office.

No doubt split with the boys demanding them.

[hammered]

The identities of the encroachers and names of the resorts should be made fully public.

Yes, please.

Yes who are they? Cant see it being a bunch of poor Somchais

[moe666]

Redraw the boundaries to allow encroachers to stay. Then in 10 years time redraw boundaries again in a few years no more national park and a poster or two will be happy with the out come. The government will have understood the needs of rich Bankokians who bought the land from a poor farmer who spent the money on lao khow many years ago.

[webfact]

Authorities Wait for Court Orders to Help End Forest Encroachment

Officials have vowed to inspect resorts and residences accused of national forest encroachment in Nakhon Ratchasima Province once the court issues warrants.

Region 8 Forest Office Director Suthep Porawetwittayalan said that officials are waiting for court orders to search 22 resorts and vacation homes allegedly encroaching on forest reserve areas in Wang Nam Kiao District of Nakon Ratchasima Province.

He said once the court issues the orders, officials will immediately carry out the orders in the Kao Pu Luang National Park.

The director added that officials will not be armed and will first visit large resorts, followed by medium and smaller ones.

Tab Lan national park head Tewin Meesap said he will have to be more careful, after a rumor that resort owners have colluded to hire a gunman to kill him.

Tewin believes the news may have been publicized by a third party who wishes to cause chaos.

Despite this, Tewin said he has promised to work his hardest to protect the nation's forests and will ask public prosecutors to step up law enforcement, after many resorts have refused to demolish buildings even after verdicts were handed out.

The park's head assistant, Nuwat Leelapata, disclosed that officials will display court orders today to remove eight addititional resorts found guilty of encroachment in Nakhon Ratchasima and Prachin Buri provinces.

Orders have been placed at 25 unlawful resorts to date.

All announcements are expected to be posted by the end of the month.

The Office of the Public Sector Anti-Corruption Commission Secretary-General, Ampol Wongsiri, said officials will inspect a piece of land in Sungnern District of Nakhon Ratchasima Province, as residents have complained that businessman have occupied 6,000 rais of public land and are charging a leasing fee each year.

-- Tan Network 2011-08-09

[JurgenG]

This is such a classic look at Thailand, and what is fundamentally wrong with this country......... The government officials that have let all this development occur suddenly look like they are fighting for the good of the Thai people by protecting the forest areas. The reality is that the officials will be able to extract more money from the resorts. I already stated in an earlier post that not ONE brick will be removed. Now I see that instead of the usual Thai solution of letting these problems quietly go away, the new solution is to redraw the forest preserve line

That's actually the smart way to go.

You're right, the old way would have been to let the problem quietly goes away. Nothing is solved, the foxes (local officials) stay in charge of the henhouse, "rents" are raised, back to business as usual.

By making the resorts "legals", you can regulate them. And there is a lot that needs to be done : noise pollution, water management, waste management ....

Some self regulation was already in place , especially regarding noise pollution, but some more serious problems, especially regarding water and waste management, should be handle at a highest level. It's not that people are not aware of the problem, it's just it's too complicated to be solved at a "village" level.

Also, when people talk about redrawing the boundaries, it's not letting people encroaching in forest area, it's about deciding which lands should be managed by the RFD and which lands should be managed by other departments. It has already been made clear that people without official land titles (people on forest ground) will be evicted), they're only talking about upgrading land usage from farming to tourism.

[ginjag]

This is such a classic look at Thailand, and what is fundamentally wrong with this country......... The government officials that have let all this development occur suddenly look like they are fighting for the good of the Thai people by protecting the forest areas. The reality is that the officials will be able to extract more money from the resorts. I already stated in an earlier post that not ONE brick will be removed. Now I see that instead of the usual Thai solution of letting these problems quietly go away, the new solution is to redraw the forest preserve line

That's actually the smart way to go.

You're right, the old way would have been to let the problem quietly goes away. Nothing is solved, the foxes (local officials) stay in charge of the henhouse, "rents" are raised, back to business as usual.

By making the resorts "legals", you can regulate them. And there is a lot that needs to be done : noise pollution, water management, waste management ....

Some self regulation was already in place , especially regarding noise pollution, but some more serious problems, especially regarding water and waste management, should be handle at a highest level. It's not that people are not aware of the problem, it's just it's too complicated to be solved at a "village" level.

Also, when people talk about redrawing the boundaries, it's not letting people encroaching in forest area, it's about deciding which lands should be managed by the RFD and which lands should be managed by other departments. It has already been made clear that people without official land titles (people on forest ground) will be evicted), they're only talking about upgrading land usage from farming to tourism.

If you have a national park the law is you cannot build houses or businesses there ??? so how can anyone produce a deed paper to say the place is legit. Sick corrupt lot is all I can say......

But is there any questions to be asked on the Island KOH CHANG===KOH SAMET and all other areas, indeed ask questions about Khorat, this National park scandal is a complete joke.

[BigFishEatLittleFish]

My guess is this guy won't be in charge by the end of the week. Some sort of arrangement will be made so that the developers will be made whole and then some before they lose their rice bowl.

The unasked question here: What were these park officials doing when these encroachments were occuring? Oh, I forgot. Their job is not to enforce these laws, it's to use their official positions for private gain. Enforcing the law? Where is the profit potential in that?

Besides, most of the parks that I've been to in Thailand are already trashed.

Yes, you are cynical but I see you know how things work. It's rare that structures are demolished (even in the USA) for zone violations. Typically the remedy is to pay a fine, maybe even a heavy fine that if not paid means the building is seized, then the structure is "grandfathered" so it can remain on park land. In this case, it could be the structures are cheap shacks and shoddy, so tearing them down is no big deal. But if multi-story concrete buildings I'm sure some very upset people will be applying pressure behind the scenes to reverse this decision.

Even in south Europe, where I live part of the year, and is a developed country, there is illegal building on park lands. Again, a heavy fine is paid and life goes on.

But I applaud Thailand for making such a statement--we'll see if it lasts. Typically decisions such as these that are reversed are not really reported much, since it's bad publicity. The good publicity is the reporting of these stories, which temporarily scares away some marginal developers who are thinking of building on public lands.

[JurgenG]

If you have a national park the law is you cannot build houses or businesses there ??? so how can anyone produce a deed paper to say the place is legit. Sick corrupt lot is all I can say......

Thank you for your post.

People who follow this thread should be able to answer your question.

But what I like more about this post is it shows a typical poster, with absolutely no knowledge and no understanding of the problem at hand, making a definitive, and usually very negative, judgement about Thailand and Thai people.

But there is optimistic moral to that. Educate yourself and you will definitely learn to enjoy Thailand and its people.

[Galong]

It would be nice to see a list of illegally-built resorts. It would be very nice to see them exposed on travel guides. In other words, even if the Thai government doesn't care about the ethics of this, us walking wallets can affect chance by not throwing money at them.

[JurgenG]

It would be nice to see a list of illegally-built resorts. It would be very nice to see them exposed on travel guides. In other words, even if the Thai government doesn't care about the ethics of this, us walking wallets can affect chance by not throwing money at them.

Just to make it simple, there are all illegals !

But I like your suggestion.

No foreign tourists (and Wang Nam Khieo is doing very well without them so far) = no double pricing , no go-go bar ...

A win-win situation

[Galong]

It would be nice to see a list of illegally-built resorts. It would be very nice to see them exposed on travel guides. In other words, even if the Thai government doesn't care about the ethics of this, us walking wallets can affect chance by not throwing money at them.

Just to make it simple, there are all illegals !

But I like your suggestion.

No foreign tourists (and Wang Nam Khieo is doing very well without them so far) = no double pricing , no go-go bar ...

A win-win situation

OK, I can work under that assumption.

I basically only go to Khao Sok and I can say that the way to tell the park-run bungalows from the private ones is that there is almost no maintenance on the park bungalows. The staff speak very little English and don't seem at all interested in their jobs. Fair enough as I guess they make almost no money.

When Thais visit the Khao Sok park bungalows, they tend to bring their own food, drink and anything else that they can get away with bringing in.

[ginjag]

If you have a national park the law is you cannot build houses or businesses there ??? so how can anyone produce a deed paper to say the place is legit. Sick corrupt lot is all I can say......

Thank you for your post.

People who follow this thread should be able to answer your question.

But what I like more about this post is it shows a typical poster, with absolutely no knowledge and no understanding of the problem at hand, making a definitive, and usually very negative, judgement about Thailand and Thai people.

But there is optimistic moral to that. Educate yourself and you will definitely learn to enjoy Thailand and its people.

My apologies--KNOW ALL i'm just a poster airing my bit--better you take over the thread as you know the answers. I've been here educating myself for 30 years and still know nowt. Where were you highly educated ??

[ginjag]

If you have a national park the law is you cannot build houses or businesses there ??? so how can anyone produce a deed paper to say the place is legit. Sick corrupt lot is all I can say......

Thank you for your post.

People who follow this thread should be able to answer your question.

But what I like more about this post is it shows a typical poster, with absolutely no knowledge and no understanding of the problem at hand, making a definitive, and usually very negative, judgement about Thailand and Thai people.

But there is optimistic moral to that. Educate yourself and you will definitely learn to enjoy Thailand and its people.

On this topic I must apologise to posters, as Jurgeng stated above I must educate myself more, and sorry for posting a stupid post. All yours Jurgen

[MAJIC]

Interesting that these government officials have found their voice now that the Democrats were defeated in the election.

I hope these people stick to their demands and restore the national parks. If the polluters and encroachers incur a loss, too bad.

Hardly a Political decision,since Legal action has been in progress since 2000,

and the Democrats have only been in power for just over 2 years of that period.

So obviously the Government officials didnt find their voice under previous governments either,

so no point in pinning this one on the Democrats,and nothing to do with them losing the Election.

[Gary A]

I'd be more interested to see the government officials who profited from the sale of this land put in jail. Corrupt officials are rarely if ever prosecuted. Corrupt police and other corrupt officials are usually promoted and moved elsewhere.

[dinooz]

If you have a national park the law is you cannot build houses or businesses there ??? so how can anyone produce a deed paper to say the place is legit. Sick corrupt lot is all I can say......

Thank you for your post.

People who follow this thread should be able to answer your question.

But what I like more about this post is it shows a typical poster, with absolutely no knowledge and no understanding of the problem at hand, making a definitive, and usually very negative, judgement about Thailand and Thai people.

But there is optimistic moral to that. Educate yourself and you will definitely learn to enjoy Thailand and its people.

On this topic I must apologise to posters, as Jurgeng stated above I must educate myself more, and sorry for posting a stupid post. All yours Jurgen

Awwwwww Ginjag dont get pissed off with Jurgen G, you were quite correct in assuming sick corrupt people is how they got thier paperwork, Jurgs obviously felt a need to belittle you as he feels there should be no negativity about the saga unfolding.Blatant encroachment of any National Park is negative in my view.Pssst..... maybe Jurgs "owns" a lil holiday cottage up in the hills.

[ginjag]

If you have a national park the law is you cannot build houses or businesses there ??? so how can anyone produce a deed paper to say the place is legit. Sick corrupt lot is all I can say......

Thank you for your post.

People who follow this thread should be able to answer your question.

But what I like more about this post is it shows a typical poster, with absolutely no knowledge and no understanding of the problem at hand, making a definitive, and usually very negative, judgement about Thailand and Thai people.

But there is optimistic moral to that. Educate yourself and you will definitely learn to enjoy Thailand and its people.

On this topic I must apologise to posters, as Jurgeng stated above I must educate myself more, and sorry for posting a stupid post. All yours Jurgen

Awwwwww Ginjag dont get pissed off with Jurgen G, you were quite correct in assuming sick corrupt people is how they got thier paperwork, Jurgs obviously felt a need to belittle you as he feels there should be no negativity about the saga unfolding.Blatant encroachment of any National Park is negative in my view.Pssst..... maybe Jurgs "owns" a lil holiday cottage up in the hills.

Thanks mate I feel better for that, pay you later

[jfchandler]

I was doing some reading on a different subject and just happened to stumble across this interesting article on the Thailand Law Forum web site talking about a particular famous forest encroachment case as part of a longer article about fraud in Thailand:

One of the most infamous cases of fraud in Thailand occurred on Koh Samui in 2006. It involved not only land fraud, but allegations of gang activity, drug smuggling, extortion and money laundering. This hornet's nest was shaken by ads placed by a foreign run sales agency, in local trade magazines and on the web selling land in The Peak development. They were offering 514 rai of land on Khao Dang Mountain at 8 million baht per rai.

The subsequent outcry by locals who suspected that the land may have been obtained illegally, combined with the fact that hundreds of real estate companies, including some owned by reputed gang members, had been established in Samui since the middle of 2005, led to an investigation by the Department of Special Investigations (DSI) into the legality of title deeds for land owned by all land holding property companies on the island. The shareholding structure of these companies was also investigated, as companies must have a majority of their shares owned by Thais or Thai juristic persons to purchase land in Thailand.

These investigations opened a Pandora's Box of fraud throughout the island. Thousands of plots were found to have illegally issued title deeds and a number of officials were investigated for accepting bribes and falsifying land documents. It was also discovered that while Koh Samui is comprised of only 150,000 rai, there were deeds issued for 200,000 rai. Encroachment on protected forest reserves was found to be a related problem, as thousands of rai of protected forest had been illegally issued titles and cleared for development. One of these plots housed a small resort owned by a Swiss businessman. Although he claimed to have gained legal title to the land in 2003, he was arrested and fined 30,000 baht. It was ruled that the titles were illegally issued and his land was reclaimed as part of a national park.

As for The Peak project, it was found that part of the development encroached on public lands and as a result, foreign clients were loath to lease plots. The project was later abandoned.

http://thailawforum....Thailand-2.html

Gotta love this place....

If the above account is correct, nice to see they arrested the farang... Haven't heard the authorities have arrested any of the Thai folks involved in the current ruckus.... Wonder why?

And here's some ancient history on the Koh Samui deal courtesy of ThaiVisa:

Edited August 10, 2011 by jfchandler

[webfact]

Empowered by court forest officials on scouring mission

By Prasit Tangprasert

The Nation

Nakhon Ratchasima

Six teams of 50 forestry officials yesterday panned out over Tambon Wang Nam Kheow to inspect the 22 resorts suspected of occupying forestland after the court here said they did not need search warrants.

The Nakhon Ratchasima court dismissed the Forestry Department's request for search warrants, saying the department was already authorised to do so by Article 25 of the National Forest Reserve Act.

After the meeting of Suthep Pawaredwittayalan, chief of Provincial Forest Resources Management Division 8, and Pol Col Wachirawit Kritrittisak, deputy Provincial Police chief, at the Sakaerat Sericulture Research Station to prepare for the operation, the six official teams at 4pm went to inspect the 22 resorts.

The teams were tasked with confirming the ownership of the resorts and the evidence including maps and aerial photographs showing that they were encroaching on the Khao Phu Luang forest reserve.

Suthep said the officials would ask for a landowner's consent to survey the land and also to see the title deed.

If the landowners do not give their consent to the search, the officials would ask the court to issue search warrants first while requesting police to investigate the facts.

If the officials couldn't find the land ownership documents when they visited the property, they would give the landowner a chance to submit the documents affirming land ownership to the authority within 15 days.

If the landowners failed to prove proper ownership, they would be ordered to leave and dismantle all improvements on their site within 45 days. If the landowners resisted, officials would demolish the buildings themselves.

The department has already filed complaints against the owners of the 22 resorts with the Wang Nam Kheow Police Station for trespassing, he said.

The teams found that most resorts were tightly locked and the landlords absent while some had caretakers presenting papers to the officials.

The checks would be completed this week and the existing evidence should be sufficient to take legal action against the alleged offenders, he added.

-- The Nation 2011-08-11

[dcutman]

Why stop at 25 to be demolished? What about the other 33?

If you walked through a patch of thorns and got 25 in one foot and 33 in the other foot, would you just pull out the 25 in one foot and leave the thorns in the other foot until later?

[longtom]

I was doing some reading on a different subject and just happened to stumble across this interesting article on the Thailand Law Forum web site talking about a particular famous forest encroachment case as part of a longer article about fraud in Thailand:

One of the most infamous cases of fraud in Thailand occurred on Koh Samui in 2006. It involved not only land fraud, but allegations of gang activity, drug smuggling, extortion and money laundering. This hornet's nest was shaken by ads placed by a foreign run sales agency, in local trade magazines and on the web selling land in The Peak development. They were offering 514 rai of land on Khao Dang Mountain at 8 million baht per rai.

The subsequent outcry by locals who suspected that the land may have been obtained illegally, combined with the fact that hundreds of real estate companies, including some owned by reputed gang members, had been established in Samui since the middle of 2005, led to an investigation by the Department of Special Investigations (DSI) into the legality of title deeds for land owned by all land holding property companies on the island. The shareholding structure of these companies was also investigated, as companies must have a majority of their shares owned by Thais or Thai juristic persons to purchase land in Thailand.

These investigations opened a Pandora's Box of fraud throughout the island. Thousands of plots were found to have illegally issued title deeds and a number of officials were investigated for accepting bribes and falsifying land documents. It was also discovered that while Koh Samui is comprised of only 150,000 rai, there were deeds issued for 200,000 rai. Encroachment on protected forest reserves was found to be a related problem, as thousands of rai of protected forest had been illegally issued titles and cleared for development. One of these plots housed a small resort owned by a Swiss businessman. Although he claimed to have gained legal title to the land in 2003, he was arrested and fined 30,000 baht. It was ruled that the titles were illegally issued and his land was reclaimed as part of a national park.

As for The Peak project, it was found that part of the development encroached on public lands and as a result, foreign clients were loath to lease plots. The project was later abandoned.

http://thailawforum....Thailand-2.html

Gotta love this place....

If the above account is correct, nice to see they arrested the farang... Haven't heard the authorities have arrested any of the Thai folks involved in the current ruckus.... Wonder why?

And here's some ancient history on the Koh Samui deal courtesy of ThaiVisa:

http://www.thaivisa....-land-concerns/

When I remember correctly, of all these thousands of illegally issued title deeds none were revoked at the end. All these shady companies still exist, maybe less a scapegoat or two. Business as usual.

[maidu]

Why the hurry to demolish structures? Each should be looked at for its individual merits. A lot of resources must have gone in to such buildings and grounds. Wanton destruction may not be the smart way out. What about summer camp facility for youngsters? ......or a science museum or art gallery? I know people living near me in thatched huts that leak every square meter - with dirt floors and no bathrooms. The only shower for a group of huts is one black plastic bowl in an open mud area. I jest not.

I think people reading this should be made aware that the troubles mentioned in these articles are generally in one area. Where is it on the map? I picture it as NE of Bkk between and hour and 2 hours drive, but am just guessing.

Just in my immediate region in northern Thailand, there are tens of thousands of families on land with no title, some of it may be Forestry land. The larger parcels are usually owned either by police or by absentee folks from Bkk. If this trend (of confiscating parcels and destroying improvements) spreads, it could directly affect a significant portion of families in Thailand.