Atm/Debit Cards. Is This True?

[mike_rad]

Hello,

A guy I met was telling me how he got pickpoketed on Pattaya beach at night. He thought he was actually doing well with the two Chinese girls he had just met. But while he thought they were feeling him up, they were actually trying to get his wallet. They couldn't as it was secured to his pocket with a loop. They did manage to get his ATM card out however. When he realized what had happened he tried calling his bank but no luck there.

So he turned up first thing the next morning to get the card cancelled - Thai Military bank. His worry was that they would take the card to a gold shop and purchase as much as they could - his balance was about 200,000 baht. I said, don't they have to know the PIN for that. He said no. Even for such amounts? He also said no.

This came as a surprise to me. Is this true? Or is it just some banks like the Thai Military. TIA.

[chuppachops]

i worry about this also when i buy shopping or anything on my thai debit card the cashier never ever checks the signiture, and yes your right you never need any pin number just simply hand it over. You do get a sms from the bank when ever a purchace has been made not that would mke any difference! You should really keep an account with most of ur money in, anbd snap the card up..

[Familyonthemove]

Yes ... that's right. it is a worry. The Chip and PIN system is not normally used here, (although the terminals are able to cope with foreign card Chips and PINs, but you need to explain to the shop assistance how it works). ATM PINs are a separate system and they are not used in the shops.

Local cards just work on the signature. My wife used my card for a year with 'Mr .... ' written on the card.

[lovenut]

When you buy a new wallet , make sure the slots for ATM cards are a tight fit. This would have prevented these experts from sliding the card from your secured wallet. I learned the hard way in Manilla some years ago.

[Darrel]

You may be able to get an ATM-only card from your Thai bank.

I have one. No one can use it for shopping, including me.

[jacknorman]

Yes ... that's right. it is a worry. The Chip and PIN system is not normally used here, (although the terminals are able to cope with foreign card Chips and PINs, but you need to explain to the shop assistance how it works). ATM PINs are a separate system and they are not used in the shops.

Local cards just work on the signature. My wife used my card for a year with 'Mr .... ' written on the card.

In Paragon shopping in Bkk all the shops i been to ask for ID card or Passport no matter if it is Foreign card or Thai card, but then again i been places where they not ask

[Pib]

Yeap, in Thailand when using my debit card or credit cards to purchase items they have never checked/compared the signature on the cards to some form of ID, regardless of whether it's a card issued by a Thai bank or foreign bank.. Now you will see some checkout clerks look at the back of the card to maybe see that it's signed, but I have never, ever been asked for signature verification after hundreds and hundreds of buys in all kinds of Thai stores. I could have been using anyone's card....and so could a crook.

There are no consumer laws to speak of in Thailand that offer any real protection when it comes to Thai ATM/debit/credit cards...it's pretty much the policies of the Thai bank that issued the card and those policies are all in their favor.

So user beware with Thai ATM/debit/credit cards.....you don't have the consumer protection you are probably use to with your home country cards. And of course realize even your home country cards would still get used without signature/PIN verification, although your home country consumer protection laws may limit your liability/loss.

[Chivas]

Nothing should surprise readers with Thai ATM cards.

In a previous post I commented that I had a SCB card from 2004 which specifically says on it (still have-valid 2014) for use ONLY in SCB atm's.

Earlier this year I couldn't log into my online banking as hadn't used for couple years and as I'd had numerous 3rd party payments in just as an afterthought put the card into a Barclays ATM in the UK with the unlikely request that it would show Thai Balance-It didn't.

What it did do though was ask me how much I wanted to withdraw !! Assuming it was automated and everyone got same screen pressed £100 and out it came !! Just stood there laughing !!

When I got back online the rate was VERY high in my favour and they had charged a fee of 100 baht for overseas withdrawal.

Card had been used twice in 2005 in Pattaya but never since until 6 years later in UK-NO security whatsoever not withstanding it shouldn't have worked in the first place.

[nong38]

Chip and Pin what on earth could that be? Sounds like more work, forget that one then. Security thats a nice word but what does it mean, I look after myself and you look after yourself? I have not got time to look after your security and I am tired and its nearly time to go home. What does dilligent mean in Thailand do you think?

[BEENTHEREDONETHAT]

I'm in the USA and no one ask for identification or checks the signature or the card. Anyone could be using it.. Never let the card out of your sight.

[jfchandler]

I'm in the USA and no one ask for identification or checks the signature or the card. Anyone could be using it.. Never let the card out of your sight.

The difference is in the U.S., under federal laws, you're liable for little or none of anything that occurs with fraudulent charges to your credit cards and debit cards... The laws are a bit different for the two... But as long as you report any fraud as soon as discovering it, you'll be liable for little or none.

In Thailand, I've yet to find any reference to any consumer protection laws relating to fraudulent bank card use, whether due to loss, theft or fraud. The general policy of Thai banks seems to be you're responsible for everything and anything that occurs with your card until FIVE MINUTES AFTER you report something to the bank--up to whatever the daily limit is on the card for ATM and POS use and/or the account balance.

And, although I doubt this is the norm, there have been member posts here on TV in the past saying that some Thai bank or banks wouldn't accept the report over the phone on a weekend and instead required the person to show up in-person on Monday morning with a Thai police report--with the bill running up the entire time.

A year or so back, I had my wallet stolen by the Skytrain by Thais, and within one hour (the time it took me to get home and call my bank after discovering the theft) they had rung up about $1,000 in various purchases at different stores in the Silom complex using a U.S. debit card that was in my wallet.

Now, I don't look remotely Thai, and my name on the card isn't remotely Thai... Yet that didn't stop the thieves from doing 7 or 8 different transactions in one mall in less than an hour.

Clearly, no one in the shops cared about the name on the card, the signature on the back or bothering to check anything.

Because it was a U.S. card covered by U.S. laws and I promptly reported the loss, I had all the funds restored to my account by my bank within two weeks--though I did have to fax them a copy of the Thai police report involved.

Had it been a Thai bank and Thai bank card, I'm pretty certain I would have been out for the entire loss.

Edited August 26, 2011 by jfchandler

[Chivas]

Chip and Pin what on earth could that be? Sounds like more work, forget that one then. Security thats a nice word but what does it mean, I look after myself and you look after yourself? I have not got time to look after your security and I am tired and its nearly time to go home. What does dilligent mean in Thailand do you think?

Which is EXACTLY the reason Thailand will remain a third world country indefinately.

[whybother]

Are you talking about a Credit Card, a Visa Debit card or a plain Debit Card?

If it is a plain debit card, then you can't use it to buy anything anyway. You can only use it to get cash out of an ATM or a money exchange place (and they'll tell you to use the ATM anyway).

[Pib]

Are you talking about a Credit Card, a Visa Debit card or a plain Debit Card?

If it is a plain debit card, then you can't use it to buy anything anyway. You can only use it to get cash out of an ATM or a money exchange place (and they'll tell you to use the ATM anyway).

Debit cards can be used for purchases also....just be sure you have enough money in your bank account to cover the purchase or the transaction will reject....unless your bank provides overdraft protection then the transaction will still clear but you will be charged an overdraft fee by your bank. Now, if you are in Thailand, take your debit card to Lotus, Big C, most anywhere and use it to purchase something....it should work fine.

Can you expand a little on what you mean by a "plain" debit card? An ATM only card will only get you cash at ATMs; a debit card will get you cash at an ATM and also work for purchases.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Pib

[AbeSurd]

An ATM only card will only get you cash at ATMs; a debit card will get you cash at an ATM and also work for purchases.

As a Brit, I'd agree with your distinction (although Brits are perhaps more likely to call ATM cards 'Cashpoint' cards!).

One thing. You say "a debit card will ... work for purchases". As far as Thai debit cards are concerned, I think that's true if the actual card is presented to a seller at the time of purchase in Thailand. But I don't think you can use Thai debit cards to buy stuff on the internet. At any rate, SCB tell me I can't use my SCB debit card for internet purchases. For that, they tell me I would need an SCB credit card.

Another thing about Thai debit cards is this ... I also have a Bangkok Bank debit card. I can use their automated phone service to set what they call the 'daily purchasing limit'. In other words I can set how much can be spent on the card when it is used as a debit card. There is an option for 'zero'. So, if you choose 'zero' you can effectively shut off the debit card side of your ATM/debit card - thus reducing it to a simple ATM card.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I believe there are different flavors of debit cards offering by various Thai banks... Some can be used for online purchases, others cannot...

I also believe there are some Thai bank debit cards that are pretty much targeted at only making online purchases...

Kasikorn Bank's K-Web shopping card is one such example...

http://www.kasikornb...ebShopping.aspx

http://www.kasikornbank.com/EN/PERSONAL/DEBIT/Pages/InternetshoppingbyKDebit.aspx

Edited August 27, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

An ATM only card will only get you cash at ATMs; a debit card will get you cash at an ATM and also work for purchases.

As a Brit, I'd agree with your distinction (although Brits are perhaps more likely to call ATM cards 'Cashpoint' cards!).

One thing. You say "a debit card will ... work for purchases". As far as Thai debit cards are concerned, I think that's true if the actual card is presented to a seller at the time of purchase in Thailand. But I don't think you can use Thai debit cards to buy stuff on the internet. At any rate, SCB tell me I can't use my SCB debit card for internet purchases. For that, they tell me I would need an SCB credit card.

Another thing about Thai debit cards is this ... I also have a Bangkok Bank debit card. I can use their automated phone service to set what they call the 'daily purchasing limit'. In other words I can set how much can be spent on the card when it is used as a debit card. There is an option for 'zero'. So, if you choose 'zero' you can effectively shut off the debit card side of your ATM/debit card - thus reducing it to a simple ATM card.

Before I got my Capital One No Hassles Visa Credit Card (zero percent foreign transaction fee) which pays 2%/1% cash back and I started using it all the time about 8 months ago, I used my Bangkok Bank debit card "a lot" like for purchases at Lotus, Big C, restaurants, HomePro, gas stations, etc. I even had it linked on PayPal and used it once as a source of payment for an Ebay buy using PayPal...the debit card worked fine. The Bangkok Bank debit card has the required CVC code on the back which is required for online purchases; just like using a credit card except you need enough money in your bank account for the debit transaction to clear. Now I pretty much just the Bangkok Bank debit card for ATM cash withdrawals.

Edited August 27, 2011 by Pib

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Bangkok Bank also has a method to use their Be1st debit cards for online purchases...

Skip past the top section on credit cards, and the info on their debit cards is beneath it.

http://www.bangkokbank.com/Bangkok%20Bank/Personal%20Banking/Credit%20Card/Credit%20Cards/Be%20secure/Pages/default.aspx

[AbeSurd]

The Bangkok Bank debit card has the required CVC code on the back which is required for online purchases; just like using a credit card except you need enough money in your bank account for the debit transaction to clear.

Thanks for your reply. Very useful.

My Siam Commercial debit card (which is Mastercard) also has a CVC number on the back.

However this did not help me last week when I tried to book a hotel in Thailand online. The transaction failed and I had to use a UK card in order to complete it.

As I say, later when I asked, Siam Commercial confirmed my SCB debit card cannot be used in this way.

Sounds like Bangkok Bank are a little more user-friendly.

[AbeSurd]

Bangkok Bank also has a method to use their Be1st debit cards for online purchases...

Skip past the top section on credit cards, and the info on their debit cards is beneath it.

http://www.bangkokba...es/default.aspx

That is very useful!

Cheers.

[Xonax]

Don´t keep all your money on the account attached to your debit card. I have two bank accounts and I can, without any fees, transfer money from my savings account to my debit card account, and never keep more money in the account than I can afford to loose.

More worrying is, that I always carry two Thai credit cards (KTC and City Bank) with a total credit of more than THB 500,000. The conditions for both cards is in Thai so I worry about what would happen, if the credit cards were lost or stolen! Could anyone be kind to inform me, how the consumer protection for credit cards in Thailand is?

Edited August 28, 2011 by Xonax

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Generally speaking, with Thai bank credit cards, you're responsible for ANYTHING they're used for...by you or anyone else up to your credit/bank limit.... until 5 minutes AFTER you report any loss or fraud to the bank.

Most of the Thai banks, certainly the bigger ones, do have their terms and conditions for their credit cards in English.... They just don't typically make them easy to find... probably in part because anyone reading them won't like what they see.

Then of course there's also their 20% APR on carried over balances.

[mike_rad]

Don´t keep all your money on the account attached to your debit card. I have two bank accounts and I can, without any fees, transfer money from my savings account to my debit card account, and never keep more money in the account than I can afford to loose.

Which bank is that? With mine, the SCB, they charge commission if it's to another of their branches, though I haven't enquired if that's also for a second account at the same branch.

But yes I agree, that seems to be the best option, apart from having the card set up only for ATM withdrawls. But I don't know if that's possible with SCB???

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

SCB shouldn't charge for any Internet banking funds transfers from one account to another of yours within the same branch...

And generally speaking, AFAIK, they also shouldn't charge for transfers from one branch to another SCB branch in the same area...though I've never had reason to do that, so I'm less sure on that issue.

The other thing to do, of course, is set daily ATM withdrawal limits and POS limits on your cards that are in line with your spending habits, and fear of potential card theft/fraud. Most Thai banks seem to set very high daily limits by default on their cards... But usually you have the option to have the bank reduce those daily limits to various levels.

Also, if the particular bank gives you the option, set up automatic email or SMS alerts anytime you have a card transaction.

[gk10002000]

I'm in the USA and no one ask for identification or checks the signature or the card. Anyone could be using it.. Never let the card out of your sight.

The difference is in the U.S., under federal laws, you're liable for little or none of anything that occurs with fraudulent charges to your credit cards and debit cards... The laws are a bit different for the two... But as long as you report any fraud as soon as discovering it, you'll be liable for little or none.

In Thailand, I've yet to find any reference to any consumer protection laws relating to fraudulent bank card use, whether due to loss, theft or fraud. The general policy of Thai banks seems to be you're responsible for everything and anything that occurs with your card until FIVE MINUTES AFTER you report something to the bank--up to whatever the daily limit is on the card for ATM and POS use and/or the account balance.

And, although I doubt this is the norm, there have been member posts here on TV in the past saying that some Thai bank or banks wouldn't accept the report over the phone on a weekend and instead required the person to show up in-person on Monday morning with a Thai police report--with the bill running up the entire time.

A year or so back, I had my wallet stolen by the Skytrain by Thais, and within one hour (the time it took me to get home and call my bank after discovering the theft) they had rung up about $1,000 in various purchases at different stores in the Silom complex using a U.S. debit card that was in my wallet.

Now, I don't look remotely Thai, and my name on the card isn't remotely Thai... Yet that didn't stop the thieves from doing 7 or 8 different transactions in one mall in less than an hour.

Clearly, no one in the shops cared about the name on the card, the signature on the back or bothering to check anything.

Because it was a U.S. card covered by U.S. laws and I promptly reported the loss, I had all the funds restored to my account by my bank within two weeks--though I did have to fax them a copy of the Thai police report involved.

Had it been a Thai bank and Thai bank card, I'm pretty certain I would have been out for the entire loss.

Actually you have much less protection with an ATM or Debit card than you do with a Credit card. Banks have a lot of leeway. That is why when traveling I keep only a certain amount of money in my Checking account that my ATM card is associated with. If I do lose it or it gets stolen, then I can only lose so much. When I need more money transferred into that checking account, and I am overseas, I resist the ease of the internet to make the online transfer from say my savings account to my checking account and instead call my bank and do it over the phone. I am also somewhat convinced that if I was ever kidnapped or threatened, I could use the ATM card to show them my account balance and say I would be more than cooperative to give it all to them. I might be more stubborn if I had over $6,600 that the original poster seemed to have (200,000 baht)

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

It's true, U.S. debit cards do have somewhat less protection than credit cards, mainly in the fact that the fraudulently obtained funds are actually removed from your account for a week or two until the bank restores them...unlike in the case of a credit card, where the charge is simply removed before you pay.

But with a debit card, as long as you report any fraud stemming from the loss or theft of your actual card within TWO DAYS of DISCOVERING it, then your potential loss is very small, no more than $50. But during the subsequent time it takes the bank to process and restore the fraudulently obtained funds, your account will be missing those funds.

If your bank will let you, that's another good reason to set reasonable daily withdrawal/POS limits on the card, to prevent its rapid use/depletion in the event of a theft.

If just your card number is fraudulently used, but the card itself is not actually stolen or lost, then you're not responsible for those charges at all provided you report the fraud reasonable soon.

I should add, the rules discussed here apply to U.S. issued cards, regardless of where in the world they may be used.

These rules don't apply to Thai bank issued debit cards. For those, basically, you have no protection for any activity prior to you reporting the theft or loss to the bank.

ATM or Debit Card Loss or Fraudulent Transfers (EFTA). Your liability under federal law for unauthorized use of your ATM or debit card depends on how quickly you report the loss. If you report an ATM or debit card missing before it's used without your permission, the EFTA says the card issuer cannot hold you responsible for any unauthorized transfers. If unauthorized use occurs before you report it, your liability under federal law depends on how quickly you report the loss.

For example, if you report the loss within two business days after you realize your card is missing, you will not be responsible for more than $50 for unauthorized use. However, if you don't report the loss within two business days after you discover the loss, you could lose up to $500 because of an unauthorized transfer. You also risk unlimited loss if you fail to report an unauthorized transfer within 60 days after your bank statement containing unauthorized use is mailed to you. That means you could lose all the money in your bank account and the unused portion of your line of credit established for overdrafts. However, for unauthorized transfers involving only your debit card number (not the loss of the card), you are liable only for transfers that occur after 60 days following the mailing of your bank statement containing the unauthorized use and before you report the loss.

If unauthorized transfers show up on your bank statement, report them to the card issuer as quickly as possible. Once you've reported the loss of your ATM or debit card, you cannot be held liable for additional unauthorized transfers that occur after that time.

http://www.ftc.gov/b...edit/cre04.shtm

Edited August 29, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[mike_rad]

SCB shouldn't charge for any Internet banking funds transfers from one account to another of yours within the same branch...

And generally speaking, AFAIK, they also shouldn't charge for transfers from one branch to another SCB branch in the same area...though I've never had reason to do that, so I'm less sure on that issue.

Ah I see. What I did was transfer from Bangkok to Pattaya. I asked them about it today and they said that transfers between branches in the same province incur no commission charges. You only get charged for a branch outside your province.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

What you encountered above is, to me, is one very odd quirk of the Thai banking market...

Within individual banks, doing various things within a region or province can be free, but trying to do the same thing from one region or a province to another incurs a fee. Back in the old days of elephants, perhaps that made sense. How that makes any sense in today's computerized, electronic banking world, I'm at a loss to understand. But that's the way the Thai banks do it...

I will say, I'm not sure the dividing line for that is always provinces... I thought I've seen some references in the past to regions... And I'm not sure if all the different Thai banks follow exactly the same standards on this point.

If someone is planning to do something to another branch outside the area of their home branch, best to check with your home branch about what's involved, especially if it will involve a recurring transaction.

[muchogra]

I have had experience with KBANK and SCB transferring or depositing cash from one province to another, both charged B20 plus 0.1% of the amount. Each deposit was a few hundred thousands. For KBANK, the maximum charge per each transaction is B1,020 which means any amount over 1 million bahts will not be charged.

However, there was one time I deposited B2,000 in BKK into a BBL account in CM they charged me B30 which translates to B20 plus 0.5% of the B2,000. I don't know if this rate applies only to smaller amount or across the board.

Oh, TallGuy, thanks for the links on the KBANK ATM/Debit Card. Last month, I opened an account at KBANK in CM. They gave me an ATM/Debit Card which reads privileged member. They did not tell me what the limit was and whether it could be used for internet shopping or hotel/flight booking. Now after reading up the links you have provided I know now I can use it for such purposes once I apply it via the ATM machine. Good job and thanks!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Make sure you know what the daily limit for ATM withdrawals and such is on your Thai debit card, and that's you're comfortable with that limit.... particularly since the Thai cards have basically no consumer protection.

The Thai banks often set very high default daily limit amounts....sometimes hundreds of thousands of baht per day.... And if the card was compromised in some way, one's losses could become very large very quickly.

Most if not all of the Thai banks should allow you to adjust the daily limits...upon request.