Corporal Punishment In Elementary Schools

[gisele]

My daughter is in grade 5 at a reputable private school in Nakhon.

I was suprised to learn a few nights ago when I told her to go to bed that if she hadn't finished her homework the teacher would hit her if it wasn't done.

Apparently a few days before, about 20 students had had their hands slapped with a ruler by a few different teachers, including my daughter.

I can only guess that this is going on all the time but I wasn't aware of this until now. We just enrolled her in this school.

[kenkannif]

Common practice, although generally farang teachers can't get away with it.

[Ijustwannateach]

It's actually illegal, but the law was only made recently, and enforcement of the law in Thailand is an iffy affair. If you wanted to sue, then you'd probably win if you threw enough money at it, and *that* teacher alone would probably be stopped.

One problem is that most of the teachers now in the system were raised and trained on corporal punishment, and it's the old "it didn't hurt me so why should I stop using it now" effect. That plus the fact that the system has not replaced it with any other form of discipline, such as detention, in-school suspension, or out of school suspension.

A public high school I used to work at still used the practice because all the parents at a PTA meeting unanimously requested that they continue, to keep their kids from running wild!!!

Of course, foreigners would never get away with it even if we wanted to, which personally I don't- there are other, equally effective nonviolent methods of discipline.

As a parent of a child at a private school, however, I'd warn you against closing too many disciplinary doors, even if it is supposedly for the sake of your child- granted, the corporal punishment is over the top. But if you go in to ask the teacher to stop that, make sure you give her an indication of an ACCEPTABLE form of punishment which you won't complain about. Otherwise she's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.

"Steven"

[Plus]

At my school lots of teachers slap kids' hands with rulers. It's a kind of ceremony - first they interrogate the witnesses, then clearly state the charge, then the verdict, then publicly administer the punishment. Sometimes it's just one misbehaving kid, sometimes a group of them lined up with hands stretched out.

Kids usually take it in stride and I never heard of parents complaining.

[makavelithedon]

Have to say in my experience working in elementary school it works pretty well with a slap on the arm or hand, and they certainly don't show any deeply disturbing signs + the latest trendy name for the latest disfunctional disorder that I noticed.

However, if it really bothers you that much I'd suggest an international school where this isn't policy or looking elsewhere to live. Not meaning to be blunt, but a foreigner going into a Thai school in any fashion and criticizing school policy will end in friendly nods and smiles and you noted as a trouble making Farang and nothing more.

Regards

Mak

[gisele]

However, if it really bothers you that much I'd suggest an international school where this isn't policy or looking elsewhere to live.  Not meaning to be blunt, but a foreigner going into a Thai school in any fashion and criticizing school policy will end in friendly nods and smiles and you noted as a trouble making Farang and nothing more.

Exactly for that reason I was apprehensive about going to see the Director of the school however I did go anyway and we had a chat. He said it's not acceptable and he was unaware this occured. We also talked about classroom management and learning outcomes.

I hope it wasn't just friendly nod.

There are no international schools here and moving is out of the question since we have family, land, farms, businesses, and I teach at the university.

I am hoping that the system will improve.

[Bluffer]

As IJWT says, yeh its illegal as of 2 years ago (?) but TIT.

My place does it all the time. Come late - whack with a bamboo pole on the arse, talk back and a slap with a ruler or ont he back of the thigh or press ups or whatever depending on the age.

But as a farang you should never do it.

One rule for them and one rule for us.

[Rhys]

From the seventies: Balif whack his pepe

[Neeranam]

One case in a school I worked for - the farang teacher pushed the kid and was charged 200,000 baht.

Some parents are out to get the farang teachers for money, be very careful.

[gisele]

However, if it really bothers you that much I'd suggest an international school where this isn't policy or looking elsewhere to live.  Not meaning to be blunt, but a foreigner going into a Thai school in any fashion and criticizing school policy will end in friendly nods and smiles and you noted as a trouble making Farang and nothing more.

Exactly for that reason I was apprehensive about going to see the Director of the school however I did go anyway and we had a chat. He said it's not acceptable and he was unaware this occured. We also talked about classroom management and learning outcomes.

I hope it wasn't just friendly nod.

There are no international schools here and moving is out of the question since we have family, land, farms, businesses, and I teach at the university.

I am hoping that the system will improve.

The head of the English department called me to say that the Director held a meeting to talk about the issues I raised. She shared with me some of the resolutions they have agreed to adopt concerning discipline, homework load and learning outcomes.

Maybe there is real hope that the system will change.

[PeaceBlondie]

IJWT raises the very valid point that apart from mild or abusive forms of corporal punishment (and a slap on the fingers is relatively mild), the system needs non-violent alternatives, which it doesn't have in place.

I was at work one day when the assistant principal of my twin girls called to say he had caught them smoking (tobacco or mary jane) and was about to spank them with a paddle when one of the girls said, "You can't do that, because it's against our Daddy's religion." I verified that was true, and asked him what the alternatives were. 3 days suspensions! And, knowing what the attendance rules were, that meant they wouldn't get any credit for their courses all semester; they would surely flunk. I said, "I absolutely forbid you to lay a hand on them. Use an alternative." This very same asst. principal was found guilty of raping a girl in every room of the school, although he boasted that he had given her her first orgasm.

A teacher who uses corporal punishment is in the same broad category as the teacher who rapes their students. In my humble opinion.

[Bobcat]

A teacher who uses corporal punishment is in the same broad category as the teacher who rapes their students

How ridiculous.

[Spit the Dog]

At my school lots of teachers slap kids' hands with rulers. It's a kind of ceremony - first they interrogate the witnesses, then clearly state the charge, then the verdict, then publicly administer the punishment. Sometimes it's just one misbehaving kid, sometimes a group of them lined up with hands stretched out.

Kids usually take it in stride and I never heard of parents complaining.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've seen it plenty of times at my school too. It always seems to the boys on the receiving end and I can't ever recall seeing a girl getting slapped with a ruler.

It is a strange sight watching a little Thai teacher slapping a big motionless lump of a kid. It appears that the kids don't suffer from the pain of the slap, it is more the embarrissment of losing face in front of the rest of the class.

Personally as long as it's nothing more than a little slap, I don't see any harm in it.

[sbk]

My brother-in-law went to a private catholic school growing up (in the 60s) in the US. He has scars on the backs of his hands (to this day) from being whacked with rulers by the nuns.

I'm with Gisele on this one I am afraid. There are other means of punishing unruly children than with a whack. And we must remember, Gisele's daughter wasn't going to get whacked for being unruly, she was going to get hit for being late with her homework.

[awarrumbungle]

I've seen plenty of girls get a wrap over the knuckles.

I've worked at a school that administer corporal punishment and the kids were still monkeys. I work at a school where it doesn't occur and the kids are angels. It's possibly not a fair comparison but it does provide an example of a school run succefully without violence. If you want to humiliate or embarass a kid the are more ways than violence (not that I'm advocating humiliation)

I'm all for inspiration not motivation. A certain element of fear may be necessary but I know personally when I was at school I aced the classes with interesting teachers and flunked the others regardless of any 'punishments'

All in my HMO

[gisele]

I was at work one day when the assistant principal of my twin girls called to say he had caught them smoking (tobacco or mary jane) and was about to spank them with a paddle when one of the girls said, "You can't do that, because it's against our Daddy's religion."  I verified that was true, and asked him what the alternatives were.  3 days suspensions!  And, knowing what the attendance rules were, that meant they wouldn't get any credit for their courses all semester; they would surely flunk.  I said, "I absolutely forbid you to lay a hand on them.  Use an alternative."  This very same asst. principal was found guilty of raping a girl in every room of the school, although he boasted that he had given her her first orgasm.

Did this happen at a school in Thailand?

[Tyree D.]

I've already stated that I am not against this type of punishment and I have done it though not in a few months and I am still around. At my school they also tie strings to the kids and walk them like buffalos. In the 80s the schools I went to in L.A. would hit the kids with yard sticks and paddles. I only got it once. This is how you put bad asses in check.

To the guy whose kids were smoking, you do have to make a compromise. Either they get the stick or flunk the year. They did do something wrong and it's their fault for getting caught.

[PeaceBlondie]

The example I gave happened in Texas. My girls' principal (headmaster) said, after my impassioned speech to the School Board meeting, that he personally didn't believe in corporal punishment after an age such as 6 or 10, but he allowed the vice principals to administer it, under State law and board policy. He agreed that corporal punishment in secondary school was not professional education.

Sorry, Tyree, but I don't compromise on my children being the object of physical, intentional, institutional violence. None of those last four kids completed the 9th grade, anyway. Whipping them would not have affected their stellar lack of academic achievement. I sing with that old Brit rock group, "HEY, TEACHER, LEAVE THOSE KIDS ALONE!"

[gisele]

I am stunned that corporal punishment still occurs in the U.S.

Teachers have other methods to handle problem kids. Classroom management skills are an integral part of the teaching profession, something learned at teacher's college.

Nowadays kids/parents know their rights anyway and wouldn't stand for corporal punishment. This is mostly a good thing, however, abuse of the system has been known to go to extremes, for example:

A few years ago I was teaching at a public elementary school, French immersion, in Ontario Canada. It was my yard duty, the bell rang, I whistled and whistled, still a dozen boys would not stop playing soccer out in the field. Finally, they decided to come in. I lined them up and whistled a foot in front of each kid and asked if they could hear this sound.

A student, angry at this indignity, accused me of pushing him, if it hadn't been for another teacher who had seen the scene, I would have been brought up on charges.

Or another teacher, also doing a yard duty during a slightly rainy day. She had her umbrella opened, turned around to talk to a student and another student was accidently touched by the umbrella. Later, this student went to the principal lamenting that she had hit him, an investigation started, I had witnessed the scene and vouched for her.

Principals often have no choice but to follow up on ludicrous accusations. Waste of time.

[frond]

It's illegal, but common.

I've seen lines of Prathom 2 boys getting swatted in front of a class by a Thai teacher. I also saw one boy put into the trashcan by a Thai teacher. I've also been told by a co-worker that a gay Thai teacher wanted to disrobe a Prathom 1 boy because he was naughty.

Some sickos here.

Kids that get whacked are the ones that get whacked repeatedly. Corporal punishment doesn't seem to be a viable solution at all!

Most schools have rules but they are VERY RARELY enforced by teachers and admin.

[gisele]

It's illegal, but common.

I've seen lines of Prathom 2 boys getting swatted in front of a class by a Thai teacher. I also saw one boy put into the trashcan by a Thai teacher. I've also been told by a co-worker that a gay Thai teacher wanted to disrobe a Prathom 1 boy because he was naughty.

Some sickos here.

Kids that get whacked are the ones that get whacked repeatedly. Corporal punishment doesn't seem to be a viable solution at all!

Most schools have rules but they are VERY RARELY enforced by teachers and admin.

Exactly, corporal punishment doesn't solve anything. In the long run, it creates fear and contempt wich may look like respect to some but it's just a disguise.

What message is this giving to students:

the way to resolve problems is by physical means (i.e. violence)

[Tyree D.]

Some kids were skipping class in the cafeteria. They got locked inside a cage as a result. One old Thai teacher was explaining to me what happened then she said she doesn't think it's right. I guess she thought the westerner would contend but I said I am for it. The kids did something bad to put themselves in that position.

Somebody above said this puts fear into the kids. It's supposed to.

[Ijustwannateach]

<whispering>: don't... feed... the... tr....

"Steven"

[millwall_fan]

I'm a teacher in Uk, where of course to even touch a child would mean instant dismissal and probably a court case. I have always subscribed to this view, however, my (Thai) wife got the ruler in school and if you look at the way kids behave in Thailand compared with Uk or US, maybe, just maybe, the Thais have had it right all these years, and this is just another area where they should stick to their own priciples and not constantly seek to ape the US.

[DUNK Performance-Thailand]

Westerners need to learn that this is a typical practice in our country, and i think that those faraang teachers cannot do the same as the thai teachers, if a faraang teacher would try this to my kid , i would have the teacher removed from the school . westerners are always pushing their views on us , i dont stand for it. Just because its this way where they are frum dont mean its like that here. It's a diffrant country. Let us keep it how its always been for centuries, if they complain so much why do they flock here , try to adapt our ways of living and then complain about our culture.

[BKK90210]

Hands slapping doesn't seem as bad as what I went through.

Lets see....in grade7....didn't finish my homeworks

first they interrogated me without being able to call the witnesses

then....I get whacked at the back of lower legs....red marks will appear in a diagonal pattern, but will go away after 3 days

or....stood the entire period at the back of the class

or....stood with both of your arms spread 180 degree

or...stood with both of your arms spread 180 degree & one of the lower leg up in 90 degree to the upper portion

or....stood at the back of the class after biting/licking into some kind of bitter roots - this was very common

All these were happened in private school!

[DUNK Performance-Thailand]

I knelt on Kao kneeo

was wacked in the back of the legs

or smacked in the palm of my hands wiff a ruler

did the whole standing bit

made meeh a good student tho. Westerners lack discipline in my eyes. All this made meeh a very good student, it was not fear but just that bad things lead to consequences and thats why we were punished, its not about making kids fear, but making them learn there are consequences and better to learn at young then big ones when older.

[astral]

Illegal but can happen.

My son came home with a letter from the school asking me to authorise

corporal punishment. He is Matayom 2.

After discussion with my Thai wife, we said yes.

Some time later he came home from school, removed his shorts, and two more pairs of shorts, and 3 layers of underpants.

The whole class had been threatened with a whacking and he had gone prepared!!!!!!!!!!

Kids are smart.

Mind you, in my book, if the whole class needed the cane then the teacher

had already lost the battle!!

[britmaveric]

I think corporal punishment serves its purpose - kept me and everyone I knew in line. (concentrated on what was important - studies instead of being silly) I believe its why schools have problems today.

[opothai]

I think corporal punishment serves its purpose - kept me and everyone I knew in line. (concentrated on what was important - studies instead of being silly) I believe its why schools have problems today.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

definately with you on that one brit,

i was one of the last generation 11+ students to get a place in the grammer school, thre school had a great record and you were made to learn and if punishment did not work you were sent down a stream or two and that was deemed even worse but the students who wanted to learn were not held back by the numpties who just thought school was pi++ing about, any way the school is still functional and it now has one of the worse reputations of the area, in my way of thinking dicipline speaks for itself through results and school standards.

public schools still have forms of punishment but parents are all to willing to sign up and pay up.