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Within a few hundred meters of my MRT stop:

Newish old high rise first up - full

High rise "1br" - 3.1mln - empty

High rise "1br" - ??? - empty

Mid rise - appears stopped work

Unknown rise - promo signs up ??

Down the street 100m:

High rise new - empty (2-3mln)

Mid rise - some nice units but way overpriced, 2-2.75mln - 40% at best

Across the street:

New large development billboard, large project

Anyone want a crappy 30sqm box with loads of fees for US100k??? HAH!

Far cheaper to rent.

Super fail

Edited by bangkokburning
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I am always amazed at how much land is open or could easily be made vacant in BKK.

True, but it is increasingly difficult to build high-rises in the city. With the new regulations being discussed (no high-rises in sois < 12m large), the vast majority of land plots will be limited to 8 floors.

One of the very few things the city planners are getting right :D !

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Always amazes me when when posters say 'empty'.......I could give 50 examples on condos that are 'empty' but they have already been sold.......another guy cant afford $100K so has to knock something he cant have...stick to renting if that is all that is within your budget :D

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PattayaPhom - Empty. No lights = No life. Ah yes, the condo flippers....worked so well in Pattaya. Perhaps they have been sold - highly doubtful at 2.5-3 million. One bldg price was 3.5 (!) but they "lowered" price to 3.1 ;-)

I never see anyone coming or going so I guess the people that bought all these lovely places on spec are just sitting on them. No need to resell, rent or even show - hell, like gold in the bank them condos!

What a crappy value, sorry of you are a buyer in this market - but its your money. I feel sorry for the Thai's buying these crappy boxes for 2.75mill @5++%. Just stamp stupid on your forehead. This is the sort of turd housing and financial situation that got the US into trouble. Watch everyone walk away from them when the Thai economy goes south in a few years.

There are a bunch of new condos going up around Phra Ram 9 whcih if sold for 3 mill will fare far better, massive amounts of building.

Another dicey development I saw the other day - On Phetchiburi. Two massive high rises. Marginal area. Fairly near the MRT but not close enough given the area one needs to walk through to merit stupid prices.

Edited by bangkokburning
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PattayaPhom - Empty. No lights = No life. Ah yes, the condo flippers....worked so well in Pattaya. Perhaps they have been sold - highly doubtful at 2.5-3 million. One bldg price was 3.5 (!) but they "lowered" price to 3.1 ;-)

I never see anyone coming or going so I guess the people that bought all these lovely places on spec are just sitting on them. No need to resell, rent or even show - hell, like gold in the bank them condos!

What a crappy value, sorry of you are a buyer in this market - but its your money. I feel sorry for the Thai's buying these crappy boxes for 2.75mill @5++%. Just stamp stupid on your forehead. This is the sort of turd housing and financial situation that got the US into trouble. Watch everyone walk away from them when the Thai economy goes south in a few years.

There are a bunch of new condos going up around Phra Ram 9 whcih if sold for 3 mill will fare far better, massive amounts of building.

Another dicey development I saw the other day - On Phetchiburi. Two massive high rises. Marginal area. Fairly near the MRT but not close enough given the area one needs to walk through to merit stupid prices.

and on the other hand ther are the 1 million baht condos close to bts tha Thais will snap up which could be flipped for say 100k profit nearer completion.

Edited by travelmann
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Within a few hundred meters of my MRT stop:

Your location is probably along Rachadapisek road...lol

I've owned a first class condo off Sukhumvit for eight years. The building is beautifully maintained and accessible to the apparently healthy Japanese rental market.

It has not been a good investment. It is difficult to find either buyers or renters for condos. At best appreciation of these properties over several years does not exceed 5% pa net inflation. If you consider vacancy factors and other overhead the rental return on investment is low, you'd be better off with your money in a savings account. If you like Thailand shophouse conversions (see photo) are a much better buy and more interesting in my view. Some data on this at villageinthecity.com. But renting is sounder all around for most people.

swelters

post-25752-0-51217700-1317619862_thumb.j

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Within a few hundred meters of my MRT stop:

Your location is probably along Rachadapisek road...lol

I've owned a first class condo off Sukhumvit for eight years. The building is beautifully maintained and accessible to the apparently healthy Japanese rental market.

It has not been a good investment. It is difficult to find either buyers or renters for condos. At best appreciation of these properties over several years does not exceed 5% pa net inflation. If you consider vacancy factors and other overhead the rental return on investment is low' date=' you'd be better off with your money in a savings account. If you like Thailand shophouse conversions (see photo) are a much better buy and more interesting in my view. Some data on this at villageinthecity.com. But renting is sounder all around for most people.

swelters

[/quote']

And at the opposite end Ive owned cheapish condos bought at the right time 5-6 years ago and made over 10% return a year and no problem finding tenants even now it harder times.

Edited by travelmann
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Peoples perception of the Thai property market cant be changed, there are those that are directly involved and are aware exactly what the market is like....then there are the doomsdayers that havent got two happenies to rub together and can only afford to rent, these people knock the market as it is out of their reach but I just dont understand how their opinions can be taken seriously if they are not involved....looking at a few buildings without many lights on dosnt really make one an expert on the property market..

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Peoples perception of the Thai property market cant be changed, there are those that are directly involved and are aware exactly what the market is like....then there are the doomsdayers that havent got two happenies to rub together and can only afford to rent,.....

You are conveniently forgetting those with plenty of money but who prefer not to get involved, and there are lots of them around.

Thai condo prices are a gigantic bubble. Real South Sea stuff, with a couple of tulip farms thrown in for good measure.

The proof? The countless hundreds of resale condos that have been on the market for years without even a hint of a buyer, and the units that finally sell many months after going on the market for 50% below the average asking price, because the unfortunate owner has died or contracted some terminal illness whilst waiting for a pigeon buyer. No need to look any further. But if anyone wants to look further: just look at the large number of Thai quota units that have never sold from the developer in several quite popular buildings in Pattaya. In Europe a successful developer would expect to sell every single unit, and quickly, and to do otherwise would be considered a failure. But not here, it seems.

Easy rule that applies throughout the known universe: if a thing is advertised correctly yet is still on the market 2 months later it is quite simply overpriced. And that's really all there is to it.

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Peoples perception of the Thai property market cant be changed, there are those that are directly involved and are aware exactly what the market is like....then there are the doomsdayers that havent got two happenies to rub together and can only afford to rent, these people knock the market as it is out of their reach but I just dont understand how their opinions can be taken seriously if they are not involved....looking at a few buildings without many lights on dosnt really make one an expert on the property market..

You missed out another section, those who can afford to buy but dont, those who can invest their money elsewhere for a better return than housing has to offer.

There are those with a vested interest in talking up Thai property, 'but I just dont understand how their opinions can be taken seriously'.

You are obviously more qualified than I to talk on all matters relating to Thai property, please give a rough back of a fag packet % return of Thai property market over say the last 5 years and tell me why I shouldnt have invested in the SET.

I dont lie awake in bed at night worrying about, noisy karaoke bars, barking dogs, lousy neighbours etc etc.

I also dont concern myself with visa regulations, if the time comes I can walk out of here tomorrow with not so much as a backward glance, contrast that to those who were foolish enough to tie up their savings in Thai property.

Lets not forget all the paper profits, its only a profit if you are able to sell, another often not mentioned minor detail is the purchase and selling price in baht.

I could have made similair gains just by having my money in a baht Thai bank account, plus I dont have to pay someone at least 3% to access my money , how many are stuck with property they cant shift?

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Peoples perception of the Thai property market cant be changed, there are those that are directly involved and are aware exactly what the market is like....then there are the doomsdayers that havent got two happenies to rub together and can only afford to rent,.....

You are conveniently forgetting those with plenty of money but who prefer not to get involved, and there are lots of them around.

There are also those with plenty of money for one major reason: they didn't buy everything they could afford in the past. :lol:

I have been to my home country recently and visited new condos at top locations. Priced only slightly higher than those at lower Sukhumvit.

The difference: those condos are of much better build quality, no Burmese workers for 30Bt/hour. Proper kitchen, proper insulation, double glazed windows, no smelly toilets. Those condos also were mostly occupied by owners. Not like in BKK where many are bought only for speculation of higher prices or rent income - which often is a wet dream.

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So many interesting views and opinions....

Apologies before I start for this longish reply !

From my perspective there is quite some truth in PattayaPhom's post. I remember a few years back one member, a constant doomsayer on Thai property whose name I have conveniently forgotten, continually posting negative posts on Thai Visa. So much so, that I finally bet him that his predictions would not come to fruition.....and they didn't.

Thai property didn't collapse, and thankfully too he is no longer posting.

This is NOT to say that the current situation is the same. But more of that later (below).

I do agree too that there are a lot of naysayers who don't own. Why would they? They feel that the market will collapse so there is no logic behind them owning. Some don't have funds, thats for sure, but many do.....and its their choice to rent. They are involved as renters and this gives them grounds for their opinions too.

I will say from my experience, there are NO experts in the Thai property market....just commentators.

Re Darrell's post: Yes, as I mentioned above, there are those with funds who could easily buy but who choose not to, for whatever reason.

I do wonder if there are hundreds of thousands of resale condos. I do think there may be a few thousand, but I doubt if very many have been on the market for years. Sales of 50% below the average asking price? It may be true....I'd like to see some at these discounts !!

Thai quota units are another story altogether. The reasoning for having a 51% Thai quota is something that the government will no doubt one day address and if it is brought into line with other countries, then you will see a lot of activity in the market where suddenly foreign buyers can own he majority of a development. There are benefits to this for everyone.....but this is a topic for another time.

I don't know about the 2 month rule in the current world financial situation. I agree that it was so in the past, but I don't think that it has the same relevance now.

Yes, there's a lot of truth in rgs2001uk's post too, but the SET hasn't been the most standout investment either. These are just different avenues for investment. Nothing more than that. For the record, I do own shares here....and property.

Sure there are places for better returns: even some fixed deposits will get you 7% + capital guaranteed. Also, to lump ALL condos into the same pool and try to get an average is fraught with danger. No two horses are the same.

I have been happy with my property investments here. Always rented. Consistent 7 - 8% NETT return on current figures. Capital gain is around 5% pa.....I'm not complaining. However, I am sure that you could give me at least 10 case studies of empty apartments with zero growth. Its like shares: some are dogs, some are stallions!

IMHO, pkrv's post is 100% correct !! Its a LIFESTYLE choice !!! Simple. We don't have to worry about finding the rent every month....or worrying that the rent may go up. PKRV and I are of the same opinion, I am sure.

Most points in GreenSnapper's post I think i have covered previously, but a couple here I would like to comment on.

I have been watching other markets where I have invested in property. IF I could buy in the majority of those markets for prices twice as high as some on "lower Sukhumvit", I would be laughing! Certainly, in London, Melbourne and Sydney where I have invested, $1 million won't get you much in the better areas. $1 million here would buy you pretty much anything you wanted. London, well, $1.5 million ++ !

Build quality may be better....BUT that said, there are some condos here that were (note past tense) built brilliantly. Overseas architects, engineers and SITE managers. It makes a difference.

The world is changing....things aren't the same as they were even 6 months ago.

For me, Asia as a whole, is a haven. From my perspective, prices are NOT expensive by international standards and could be said to be cheap.

A bubble ? Perhaps it is....but Thais don't sell for a loss....so that artificially holds a market IF worse comes to worse.

If it is a bubble, sadly, all boats rise and fall with the tide. That said, the better buildings may not have anyone prepared to sell for a loss.....so it doesn't matter.

Also, with all the financial wrenching in the US and Europe, I would suggest that many of the expats or investors who may have been vulnerable and who bought here have actually already exited the market.

Sure, the amount of condos now is ridiculous. We all know that. But whether this leads to an overall collapse, well only time will tell.

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I do wonder if there are hundreds of thousands of resale condos. I do think there may be a few thousand, but I doubt if very many have been on the market for years. Sales of 50% below the average asking price? It may be true....I'd like to see some at these discounts !!

I didn't mention "hundreds of thousands" and I dont think the number would be that high (quite).

I can assure you that there are many condos in Pattaya that have been on sale for over 3 years. Study the websites paying special attention to the dates and property reference numbers. They reveal everything.

Thai quota units are another story altogether. The reasoning for having a 51% Thai quota is something that the government will no doubt one day address and if it is brought into line with other countries, then you will see a lot of activity in the market where suddenly foreign buyers can own he majority of a development. There are benefits to this for everyone.....but this is a topic for another time.

This is true, but the large number of unsold Thai quota units serves to indicate that only farangs are stupid motivated enough to buy condos at the prices they are at. Remove the farang buyer and no one else wants them at that price. This cant be right.

I don't know about the 2 month rule in the current world financial situation. I agree that it was so in the past, but I don't think that it has the same relevance now.

I think it does, if you want to sell.

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Dear Darrell,

apologies....should have said "hundreds".

No excuse !!

I really have to get down to Pattaya and check it out. Every market in Thailand tends to have its own peculiarities. Do you know of any very good condos going cheaply or websites I can check them out? I'd really be interested.

Re the Thai quota. Yes, I agree that the Thai's often can't buy them at the prices that Farang pay. Thats another reason why the developers must be stressing out at present. However, whether this in itself causes a collapse, well, we'll no doubt see.

But just quickly on this topic, the issue that I find interesting is that if a development has say 300 apartments: 147 are sold to farang, say 40 are sold to Thai's, the situation re Common Fees is going to be astronomical. Rather than have them split between 300 owners, they are split 187......a very expensive proposition. I am thinking of The River condo...where it is MUCH larger than 300 condos but the Thai ownership I believe is minute !!

Re the 2 month rule: yes, I have been aware of this but I feel that now many sellers are conditioned into thinking that their properties (not just in Thailand) will be on the market for 3 months or possibly more. Its a tougher market out there not necessarily related to over pricing. Its more lack of confidence overall, and lets face it, the press aren't helping this either !!

Regards

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As far as I know the developer is supposed to pay the common fees for unsold units. I have been told that in some buildings in Pattaya they are trying to get out of this. Luckily (for the developers) there is also a significant number of farangs prepared to buy in company name, or wife/GF's name, thus reducing the unsold numbers.

And I dont think that it is a question of Thais being unable to pay the farang price due to lack of funds; I think they just dont want to buy because the prices are too high.

One of the things that makes the Pattaya market unusual is the large percentage of units owned by "investors" with nothing much better to do with the money. Many of them aren't concerned about having property empty and up for sale for months or years, not least because they pay no ownership taxes on the property. So they are prepared to ask high prices and to wait forever. In the West this would be much less practical due to the much higher ownership costs. Also in the West it is much less common to find individuals owning 5, 10, 50 or 150 units as one does here, due not least to things like capital gains tax. I also wonder if many of the farangs buying multiple units here would ever get past the simplest sort of anti money laundering checks that are routinely made in the West, but which dont seem to be a problem here.

Units do come up for sale from motivated vendors (or, often, their inheritors) and these are the ones to look for. To sell a place promptly, large reductions on the average asking price are often needed, to the point that many of these "fire sales" are bought by cronies of the agent without ever really seeing the light of day and then promptly put back up for sale at a higher price. I have seen this happen several times.

Does some of that sound dishonest? I rather think so.

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Peoples perception of the Thai property market cant be changed, there are those that are directly involved and are aware exactly what the market is like....then there are the doomsdayers that havent got two happenies to rub together and can only afford to rent,.....

You are conveniently forgetting those with plenty of money but who prefer not to get involved, and there are lots of them around.

There are also those with plenty of money for one major reason: they didn't buy everything they could afford in the past. :lol:

I have been to my home country recently and visited new condos at top locations. Priced only slightly higher than those at lower Sukhumvit.

The difference: those condos are of much better build quality, no Burmese workers for 30Bt/hour. Proper kitchen, proper insulation, double glazed windows, no smelly toilets. Those condos also were mostly occupied by owners. Not like in BKK where many are bought only for speculation of higher prices or rent income - which often is a wet dream.

"I have been to my home country recently and visited new condos at top locations. Priced only slightly higher than those at lower Sukhumvit.

The difference: those condos are of much better build quality, no Burmese workers for 30Bt/hour. Proper kitchen, proper insulation, double glazed windows, no smelly toilets. Those condos also were mostly occupied by owners. Not like in BKK where many are bought only for speculation of higher prices or rent income - which often is a wet dream. "

Your wet dream is Thailand that's why your here.;)

Im assuming your hometown is USA where there are many bargains to be had but it kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it? I wouldn't recommend purchasing property here to flip, that's fraught with danger, however buying your home to live in is something completely different ..

Thailand has stood up quite well on the global stage and seems to me the "stupid" ones bought in the west where properties have dropped up to 80%

Its important to understand that Thailand has minimal exposure to the sub prime crisis which rocked the western world. BKK may be slow and in the current market its to be expected.

Somebody here , I think Darell mentioned there are many properties for sale at 50% off.

hmm show me a link, sounds like a good deal :rolleyes:

p.s after 5 years the 3.3% transfer is is wiped

Edited by zorro1
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Your wet dream is Thailand that's why your here.;)

Im assuming your hometown is USA where there are many bargains to be had but it kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it?

No, I'm not speaking of USA and I'm not speaking of some other overpriced areas in London or Paris or such.

Europe is big and even at European wages and prices, you can find new condos in top locations which compare favorably with Thai prices. Plus you have much more pleasant surroundings than lower Sukhumvit.

But I acknowledge, this does not play a role in the eyes of a native Thai investor. But it does play a role for a farang investor, who is usually not forced to invest here.

Two more remarks about the growing bubble:

It was mentioned that Thais don't sell under asking price, but just keep the property not to make a loss. Well, taking into account that you pay ~5% to the bank per year plus the regular condo fees - what will be your profit if you sell 5 years later "without a loss"?

And one more: until recently, interest rates at Thai banks were abysmal. That has changed drastically. Without risk, you can get almost 4% on fixed accounts. And you are still flexible with your money.

People will rethink if buying condos is really such a good investment. And that will have a big impact on the bubble. Thais will realistically buy for their own use, but no longer for investment and speculation. Until the situation changes again.

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Peoples perception of the Thai property market cant be changed, there are those that are directly involved and are aware exactly what the market is like....then there are the doomsdayers that havent got two happenies to rub together and can only afford to rent,.....

You are conveniently forgetting those with plenty of money but who prefer not to get involved, and there are lots of them around.

Thai condo prices are a gigantic bubble. Real South Sea stuff, with a couple of tulip farms thrown in for good measure.

The proof? The countless hundreds of resale condos that have been on the market for years without even a hint of a buyer, and the units that finally sell many months after going on the market for 50% below the average asking price, because the unfortunate owner has died or contracted some terminal illness whilst waiting for a pigeon buyer. No need to look any further. But if anyone wants to look further: just look at the large number of Thai quota units that have never sold from the developer in several quite popular buildings in Pattaya. In Europe a successful developer would expect to sell every single unit, and quickly, and to do otherwise would be considered a failure. But not here, it seems.

Easy rule that applies throughout the known universe: if a thing is advertised correctly yet is still on the market 2 months later it is quite simply overpriced. And that's really all there is to it.

Properly priced condos in a good location are snapped up within days.......agree, you get the owners that want a ridiculous price and will never sell. Get an agent to give a fair appraisal and market it correctly and it will sell quickly enough

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Your wet dream is Thailand that's why your here.;)

Im assuming your hometown is USA where there are many bargains to be had but it kind of defeats the purpose doesn't it?

No, I'm not speaking of USA and I'm not speaking of some other overpriced areas in London or Paris or such.

Europe is big and even at European wages and prices, you can find new condos in top locations which compare favorably with Thai prices. Plus you have much more pleasant surroundings than lower Sukhumvit.

But I acknowledge, this does not play a role in the eyes of a native Thai investor. But it does play a role for a farang investor, who is usually not forced to invest here.

Two more remarks about the growing bubble:

It was mentioned that Thais don't sell under asking price, but just keep the property not to make a loss. Well, taking into account that you pay ~5% to the bank per year plus the regular condo fees - what will be your profit if you sell 5 years later "without a loss"?

And one more: until recently, interest rates at Thai banks were abysmal. That has changed drastically. Without risk, you can get almost 4% on fixed accounts. And you are still flexible with your money.

People will rethink if buying condos is really such a good investment. And that will have a big impact on the bubble. Thais will realistically buy for their own use, but no longer for investment and speculation. Until the situation changes again.

"Well, taking into account that you pay ~5% to the bank per year plus the regular condo fees - what will be your profit if you sell 5 years later "without a loss"?"

:huh: what -5%?

what regular condo fees? unless your suggesting thailand has excessive fees or your saying anyone who pays a condo fees is losing . unless your exempt you will pay the normal fees in Any country that you buy Your not making any sense

Edited by zorro1
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You know London, I believe that Thailand and especially Bangkok has now exceeded the financial abilities of many of those who wished to buy in a third world country, which is staggering beautiful.

Maybe they should consider Cambodia, or Outer Mongolia – IMO the world has changed since they dreamed of their aspirations’, and of course reality has, quite brutally set in.

PKRV

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You know London, I believe that Thailand and especially Bangkok has now exceeded the financial abilities of many of those who wished to buy in a third world country, which is staggering beautiful.

Maybe they should consider Cambodia, or Outer Mongolia – IMO the world has changed since they dreamed of their aspirations', and of course reality has, quite brutally set in.

PKRV

Yes PKRV, I do think there is truth in this.

From my experience, the number of foreigners who have come for a "cheap" retirement because they expect Asia to be cheap and then finding it the same, or more costly, as their home is, just staggers me.....and its not just Thailand!

Its just old thinking. No grasp of reality.

Also, many ask how much it costs to live here and are quite staggered (shocked) when you tell them. Some openly dispute it.....thats fine. But they always come back after a while saying that its true.

Sure, there are those who can live here very economically, but my rule is: IF you are going to live in a foreign country, you must have a lifestyle AT LEAST as comfortable and to the same standard as you would in your own country. If not, why would you do it ? I am sure that you would agree.

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....my rule is: IF you are going to live in a foreign country, you must have a lifestyle AT LEAST as comfortable and to the same standard as you would in your own country. If not, why would you do it ?

Comfort and standards are variable.

In Europe I used to have 100+ channels of English-language TV available 24 hrs a day for no charge at all. Several HD channels included, and a free to use PVR.

I had very fast internet that worked, free phone calls wordwide, free router, free phone line, free service within 24 hours, for 1200B/month (equiv.)

I also used to get nice local wine for 70B a litre, and largely free health care, low prices for shop-bought items, and something called consumer protection.

I dont get any of that here, nor did I ever expect to get it, but I'm still glad that I moved.

What I do get here is no income tax, no property tax, cheap transport, cheap dentists, local food for 50B (compared to the 300 - 1000 I would have to have spent back in Europe), no need for central heating, and no need to wear an anorak half the year.

Property is another matter, as is the price of new cars.

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what -5%?

what regular condo fees?

Presumably bank interest (for those with a mortgage) and common fees (for all condo owners).

You must buy a condominium by Foreign Exchange Transaction(s) - Yes you do pay for what you bought..I.e. there are no interest fees. No mortgage whatsoever.

Yes there are communal fees for a condominium, but there is even a pinned thread that discusses this.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/320264-the-condominium-act-and-definition-of-a-condominium-in-thailand/

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....my rule is: IF you are going to live in a foreign country, you must have a lifestyle AT LEAST as comfortable and to the same standard as you would in your own country. If not, why would you do it ?

Comfort and standards are variable.

In Europe I used to have 100+ channels of English-language TV available 24 hrs a day for no charge at all. Several HD channels included, and a free to use PVR.

I had very fast internet that worked, free phone calls wordwide, free router, free phone line, free service within 24 hours, for 1200B/month (equiv.)

I also used to get nice local wine for 70B a litre, and largely free health care, low prices for shop-bought items, and something called consumer protection.

I dont get any of that here, nor did I ever expect to get it, but I'm still glad that I moved.

What I do get here is no income tax, no property tax, cheap transport, cheap dentists, local food for 50B (compared to the 300 - 1000 I would have to have spent back in Europe), no need for central heating, and no need to wear an anorak half the year.

Property is another matter, as is the price of new cars.

Do you have a waterfall?

http://www.theparkresidence.co.th/main.asp

Edited by pkrv
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You must buy a condominium by Foreign Exchange Transaction(s) - Yes you do pay for what you bought..I.e. there are no interest fees. No mortgage whatsoever.

There are probably umpteen thousand farangs with Thai wives/GFs, or Thai-name companies, who would disagree with you there.

The 5% the poster was referring to can only be loan interest. Not everyone with property here also has a loan on it to pay off, but some do.

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