Thai Student Nazi Dress-Up Day Causes Outrage

[george]

UPDATE:

Thai press are picking up on the story, including more pictures:

http://prachatai.com/journal/2011/09/37093

[lounger]

The outrage of german fancy dress is well enough documented and commented upon here.

What appals me is the number of posts about the separate subject of the swastikas in Hindu mythology. Thailand is closer to Hinduism and India than to European history and so should be given some latitude here. If anyone wants to know more about the ancient origins of the swastika including its shape and layout then Wikipedia for one gives an excellent report http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika. The readers will notice that the crosslines traditionally were vertical and horizontal, there appears to be no specific colouring; the ears pointing sometimes to the left and sometimes the right. The Nazi sign is of dramatic colouring and the crosslines are 45 degrees off true.

maybe those correspondents who are outraged at the signs would care to comment on the stile of the badges.

Meanwhile the horror of the school pageantry sickens. When I think about the fines and penalties in Thailand for going against Thai normal practices such as defacing posters or taking your bra off in Songkran I am left speechless.................

[Nisa]

How ignorant do you have to be?

Lets clear something up here.

Harry was a teenager at the time, not a private school full of highly educated nuns. He was at a private party, not goosestepping around in broad daylight in front of children, parents and the general public.

He has German parentage so just showing remembrance to his ancestors..

He was actually 20 years old at the time and it was the same month the royal family would be taking a leading role in a holocaust memorial day ceremony. It was a friend's birthday party that had a fancy dress theme of "colonial and native"

Edited September 27, 2011 by Nisa

[Jingthing]

The thread is about Thailand, not Harry.

[sbk]

An entire series of nasty, abusive and trollish posts have been removed.

Drop the racism, the abuse, the trolling, the flaming and the general nastiness. If you can't keep it civil you won't be posting much longer.

[osiboy]

I am really tired of the anti-Thai posts which re-occur with regularity in these forums. Thai students don't know European history. Well, I can assure you that European and American students don't know Asian history. So the difference is what? And if you've lived in Thailand for even a short period, you should know that the swastika does not mean Nazi Germany - so no, the BTS clerk is not a Nazi sympathizer. He's just hoping for some good luck and, at the amount of money he makes, he needs some.

On the other hand, parading before the school in uniforms of whatever kind (German, French, English, American) carrying toy machine guns is another issue.

ahh hmm,...... i thought it was a world war ? and i was taught about the german and the japenese roles , and the thais in my opinon should be educated about ANY of them , not ignored , i think there was a little action around SE Asia during WWII ??........now it just suits the economy to be hand-in-glove with the japanese investors , dont upset the apple cart and creat any bad feeling.i wonder if the students had dressed up as japanese and were beating thais with bamboo to work faster there would be a different response ????

Edited September 27, 2011 by osiboy

[Bagwan]

Its history get over it

Not a very popular view in Northern Ireland where they still go on about Oliver Cromwell and William III - nor is it evident in Southern Thailand come to that. Should the Jews or the Poles also get over it? How about the Dutch after the savage winter of 1944 when the Germans broke open the dykes and the country became a skating rink? Should we scrap the ceremony at the Cenotaph on or about the 11th November every year?

One of the great things that we learn from history is that we never learn from history. Do try to take onboard the knowledge that your freedoms were paid for by the suffering of many, the survivors of whom, are now aged and probably infirm. Ask about the Thai term kreng jai, and then try to acquire some.

[BuffaloRescue]

Im currently in Phnm Penh.

I spent last night in a bar, was chatting to a Dutch guy who seemed like a good bloke. We chatted for an hour or so and got drunk. Then he started telling one of the staff there she was "same same pol pot" and made a few other jokes about Pol Pot. I made my excuses and left.

Unbelievable.

[MaxYakov]

How ignorant do you have to be?

[ Removed image of a privileged, punk UK elite in Afrika Corps uniform ... rather out of uniform .. with a drink and cigarette in hand at a private party. Maybe practicing for a deployment to the desert of Iraq? ]

Comparing this elite's stunt at a private party to what appears to be a highly organized statement by several individuals of a public display is kind of pushing it, doncha think?

[ParadiseLost]

How ignorant do you have to be?

Lets clear something up here.

Harry was a teenager at the time, not a private school full of highly educated nuns. He was at a private party, not goosestepping around in broad daylight in front of children, parents and the general public.

He has German parentage so just showing remembrance to his ancestors..

So the same thing but different because he is a prince, because he is German or it is just okay to do such things amongst close friends and family? Would love to hear some of your jokes...

I remember the UK public was very happy about it at the time... :lol:

[Interman]

I've asked my students and grown adults from time to time if they know what a Nazi is or about the killing of the jews... i'd say maybe 5% know....

And I mean, who wants to dig that up here , then that would lead to talking about the Jap occupation of Thailand..... I think theres a reason why its not taught.

I personaly couldnt care less.... It was years ago..and have lived here long enough to know there was no "ill" intentions and they probably dont even know what Jewish beliefs are let alone support the Nazi cause. I would rather focus on the current problems such as the Jews being caught celebrating the twin towers falling and current occupation of Palestine.

[StreetCowboy]

How ignorant do you have to be?

Lets clear something up here.

Harry was a teenager at the time, not a private school full of highly educated nuns. He was at a private party, not goosestepping around in broad daylight in front of children, parents and the general public.

He has German parentage so just showing remembrance to his ancestors..

So the same thing but different because he is a prince, because he is German or it is just okay to do such things amongst close friends and family? Would love to hear some of your jokes...

I remember the UK public was very happy about it at the time... :lol:

The House of Windsor split from the House of Hanover in the time of Queen Victoria, if my memory serves me correctly, so the Nazis are far from his ancestors

SC

[lazygourmet]

Whatever, Rosh Hashanah is coming after tomorrow...

So that will be a time of asking for forgiveness for all wrongdoings.

[lannarebirth]

I think Thais are captivated by the Nazi's white supremacy message, which is kind of ironic.

Looking at the level of effort involved with this, could it be they're actually satirizing (alleged) white supremacy

and we farangs just aren't getting the joke? Scary thought, huh?

No, I don't think so. If you read the other thread in the CChiang Mai forum you'd have seen the post where a mkan whose child attends the school, had his wife explain to him that their intentention was to show "power". That's a very plausible explanation of how it occured given the fact they have no other background save for propaganda films. Nazis were very very good at that and if you knew nothing else about them you'd be inclined to embrace the fact they were powerful too.

edit: Actually I was making a joke in my post about "whitening products". Perhaps a poor one.

Edited September 27, 2011 by lannarebirth

[swerver]

This is very strange and is smacks of total ignorance of WWII history and Nazi Germany. Don't these teachers read? If I am not mistaken, this is NOT the first time it has happened in Thailand.

Looks like from all the above nobody seems to look back in history how Hitler got his foot in the door.

Chang Mai – Shinawatra capital city.

School - at least one of them - alma mater?

The innocence portrait by the school is total rubbish.

As for the students, in the rote learning Thai education system they are not trained to ask questions. One or two may have had some idea, which may have been all, as for asking questions, not in the Thailand education environment.

For the masses knowing details under the present Thai political environment are not a requirement; all the kids did was following the directions given by the man who may have Mein Kampf as his bedside table bible. No different than the masses of simple Germans – not all Germans were highly educated, as most people think - following Hitler's directions to their ultimate end, as cannon fodder.

It should be remembered that Thailand in the later part of the thirties was very much impressed with Germany; the Thai Army even introduced the Goosestep.

Edited September 27, 2011 by metisdead
Font, used default forum font when posing.

[Tafia]

This was a bloody carnival, I cannot believe its taken 15 pages of hate mongers to gripe over.

I think this is your position. Correct me if I'm wrong. Your opinion is noted.

1. A Nazi parade at a Catholic school is totally fine. Fun really.

2. There is nothing for the school administration to apologize for.

3. There is no need to add some history of World War II to the curriculum.

4. It is totally OK for there to be as many Nazi parades at schools in Thailand as the kiddies desire. It's all in good fun!

5. To question any of this reflects hatred of Thai people.

Cheers.

1.It was ment to be fun its the over zealous westerners on here that has made it into something else.

2.Why should they apologise, What is there to apologise for?

3.You will find certainly in the UK less and less of the History of the WW is being taught.

4.It was fun but for over zealous farangs complaining..the horror of it

5.No but it brings out the anti Thai brigades just read the posts!

Perhaps you would prefer a carnival with the Thais dressing up as British soldiers and beating the welsh, who as a tribute to their identity salivate profusely and hold a pea sized brain in their hand.

Wales is part of Britain....here we go again

[Nisa]

BTW, most Jews in the world aren't Israelis.

Actually I believe you are wrong. Near 1/2 (over 40%) live in Israel and a very large number of Israelis hold dual citizenship and live elsewhere (mostly the US) because Israel grants citizenship to all Jewish persons (without having to apply for it, attend any ceremony, or swear any oath of allegiance) and allows dual citizenship.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Nisa

[richardblanc]

young thai don't know about that

if Jewish have any problem with thai they free to go back israel

or they are free to complaint to germany

millions peoples die for them

this is asia not europe here do not bring your shif over here

keep it with palestinians

THANK YOU

Your post sounds like something a Nazi sympathizer would write. So I guess there are some f-rang fans of such Nazi parades.

BTW, most Jews in the world aren't Israelis.

If the spelling and grammar was not so bad I would assume it was a wind up.

Where is the imaginary Somchai from Eton when you need him?

I suppose it must gall you to be tarred with the same brush as the nazi-like israeli government.

That having been said, I don't think I have ever met an unpleasant Israeli, nor, that I recall, an unpleasant South African.

Though perhaps that says more about the people that I meet than about those nationalities.

SC

nothing to do with nationality

but if you have a complain about past or history do it to the corcern peoples

do i coplain about german no about jews no

we all lost in this war

i meet unpleasant and plesant peoples from many nationality

this is thailand here they don't know about this

it;s funny not racist from those kid we all should know

i do remember few years a go no israel on shops in chaweng

this was racist purpose and what happen nothing

help me to understand

[nickynomates]

Good post

Yes ok Indian symbols great can understand that part, but the Jack boots and uniform with Hitler Moustache.

I asked my Secretary a well educated girl and quite traveled to name 4 countries that border Germany she got zero and looked like a rabbit in the headlights.

Poor education the be all and end all.

Basically turn up and get a pass in anything.

Oh happy is the moron who does not give a dam

I wish i was a moron

My god perhaps i am.

What appals me is the number of posts about the separate subject of the swastikas in Hindu mythology. Thailand is closer to Hinduism and India than to European history and so should be given some latitude here. If anyone wants to know more about the ancient origins of the swastika including its shape and layout then Wikipedia for one gives an excellent report http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika. The readers will notice that the crosslines traditionally were vertical and horizontal, there appears to be no specific colouring; the ears pointing sometimes to the left and sometimes the right. The Nazi sign is of dramatic colouring and the crosslines are 45 degrees off true.

maybe those correspondents who are outraged at the signs would care to comment on the stile of the badges.

Meanwhile the horror of the school pageantry sickens. When I think about the fines and penalties in Thailand for going against Thai normal practices such as defacing posters or taking your bra off in Songkran I am left speechless.................

Edited September 27, 2011 by nickynomates

[osiboy]

I think that the students were trying to make a valid point. There is little or no difference between Hitlers Nazis and todays UN and Euro- American imperialist atrocities. When the final death tolls of our atrocities in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and other nations are tallied, future generations will consider Hitlers atrocities nominal compared to ours.

doubt very much if they thought any such thing , it was pure ignorance on the students part

[VictorOne]

I HAVE READ a few of the comments here and I find it very hard for people to plead ignorant. They don't know? Come on how stupid can an educational facility be? With everything that has been in the news are the teachers and (so called educators) up there realy that stupid? They must be. Not ignoant just plan stupid. NO COMMON SENSE. I feel very sorry for those children. The schoolisprobably run by fools that just want and care about money, not to educate the children. What a bunch of dumbies.

You have hit the nalL on the head. IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY IN THE REALM.

[Tafia]

There are instances of kids all over the globe who have dressed in Nazi gear ... wasn't there a prince in England who wore a Nazi uniform for fun as an adult? Does this mean the entire UK education system is broken and the population uneducated?

But if this topic helps those whose only self esteem comes from feeling superior to people in a developing nation ... more power to them.

God forbid some people here use any logical sense at all to know there was absolutely no hatred or negative views being expressed by these kids ... but don't let that stop you from expressing your faux outrage and faux feelings of superiority.

[harsh4]

I can remember seeing a Nazi Swastika badge on the shirt of a BTS station cashier/clerk a few months ago. You can see them on bags , T-shirts, Even on the painted company buses that are everywhere, Clearly WW2 was something missing from the ciriculum in Thailand

The Swastika is an ancient indian and oriental symbol signifying 'auspicious' and well being. It dates back to the Imdus valley civilization. Hitler copied the symbol - he probably had no originality. It is a bit shallow for westerners to take a swipe at the symbol itself. Keep in mind Asian civilizations and sensibilities are a lot more ancient compared to European ones and the use of any traditionally significant symbol has no relation to what happened in Europe less than (only) 70 years ago... You have no clue about local history and what's construed as lucky or offensive, why do you expeุct them to know about your history or culture ? That said, a parade of Nazi uniformed soldiers etc is indeed ignorant and rightly shocks people from Europe. But stop lecturing about the swastika symbol please... It was unfortunate that Hitler could not think of any other symbol for his "third Riech (sp)". Let's not bash asians for it please... Thanks...

[lannarebirth]

Not meaning to make light of the horrors of the Holocaust, but to be fair, schools in the West, at least the USA, teach almost nothing of the many other genocides that have occurred in recent human history. The atrocities committed by the Japanese during WWII are no less horrific than that of the Germans, and yet I knew nothing about them until entering college. And the college I am currently attending (a public college in Los Angeles) does not even offer a class on European or Asian history. I still know next to nothing about what happened in Cambodia (killing fields), Turkey (Armenians), and Bosnia (Muslims), none of which were ever taught to me in school. The bottom line is that world history is a subject that is sorely lacking in schools across the planet, Thailand is hardly unique. And the sad thing is that it is ignorance of history which often leads to the worst of events repeating themselves, over and over again, as we never seem to remember the lessons learned the last time around.

You are right of course, but that's a broad spectrum of atrocities and one wouldn't expect to be aware of all of them until college level IMO. I'm sorry your college's curriculum is not more broad.

In a complete departure from the topic I would suggest college curriculums everywhere required courses that mapped out the inherent evil that dwells in each of us. No need to document every past case. Better to know the enemy lies within us and learn how to fight him.

[lannarebirth]

Lost in the discussion is the fact that Sacred Heart Catholic School is under the guidance an influence of the Roman Catholic Church. The RC has a very clear position on Nazis and the the events related to WWII: It abhors the event and considers the Nazi period to be one horrible sin. I'm not trying to start a debate on the Church, but am emphasizing that there can be no excuse for this event at a Catholic school because it violates the current position of the Church Having students parading about in nazi garb is an affront and rebuke to the Church. As such, the argument that the poor dears were ignorant or that the swastika is a good luck sign etc holds no water. The use of non Christian symbols, particularly those associated with practices and customs not consistent with Church teachings and positions is contrary to the Church doctrine, and are neither encouraged nor promoted by Church associated entities.

It seems to me that the Roman Catholic clergy needs to assert itself in this matter. Either the school is worthy of being called a Catholic School or it is not. At the very least, someone needs a smack across the head from a Sister Mary Margaret and needs to revisit the compulsory morals class and curriculum.

So the sponsors of a parade have to endorse all the political views not only of the people participating in the parade, but also the characters that they dress up as?

I don't have a strong view on how people dress in parades, and if they had gone around burning effigies of Billy Connolly I hope I would have taken it in my stride, but I do get concerned when people start attacking others' freedom of dress without acknowledging that they are on a march down the slippery slope to tyranny.

Many of the more outspoken posters on this thread have been condemning the parade participants for failing to hold the same views that they themselves hold, and making comments like "those that do not learn from history are bound to repeat it". But learning from history is different from knowing one's history. The Nazi party rose to power led by a demagogue who appealed to the disenfranchised, and made them feel victims, and gave them the moral guidance to start a struggle against 'foreigners' including their neighbours of other races. Deutsche Leibe Deutsche might have been a better name for the party than National Socialist.

I suppose most of us are particularly distressed by the horrors of the holocaust because we find it hard to understand how our neighbours, who seem so much like us, could have participated, albeit tacitly, and perhaps fear that in such a position we would ourselves have lacked the spiritual and moral heroism that was exhibited by the few who stood against the tyranny within Germany.

As others have said - perhaps this could be the starting point for a learning activity on the history of tyranny, good taste and consideration for others' feelings. In which case, one way of starting that educational process would be "YOU ARE SO IGNORANT!" and we could take it from there...

SC

That's a lovely post,

[MaxYakov]

This is just innocent fun from a Thai student perspective.

Get over it , its not the end of the world.

It may have been 'fun' from a Thai student perspective and not the end of the world to them, but their superiors and mentors should have known better and it could be that their 'world' at that school will end. A casual observer might draw some conclusions about the quality of education the students are getting as well. Whether it was arrogance or ignorance on their part, people lose positions over much less than this elsewhere. Of course, the usual TiT statement will apply to this situation.

[tlansford]

A lot of comments about a miserable Thai education system.

But ask a typical high school senior in the USA "who was Hitler?" and then note the response... heck, ask 100 of them...

You'll be surprised. Well, maybe some of you won't be...

[boracic]

I'm glad this parade happened as it has initiated discussion and exposure of what I believe one of the most important events ever, unlike "The Best Breakfast in Pattya" which elicits nearly 3000 views and umpteen replies.

[WarpSpeed]

A lot of comments about a miserable Thai education system.

But ask a typical high school senior in the USA "who was Hitler?" and then note the response... heck, ask 100 of them...

You'll be surprised. Well, maybe some of you won't be...

Shame on their parents then....

[osiboy]

I don't know too many people in the UK or US who know much about the history of other countries unless it was related to their own history.

i thought it was related to their history,.... wern't japan part of the axis ?..........with ?