Thai Student Nazi Dress-Up Day Causes Outrage

[Nisa]

Haven't seen a cross all day (Luftwaffe Fw 190):

Interesting, was the cross a 'secondary symbol' for the nazis of WWII? I never saw it on one of their flags. I don't see any of 'these groups' displaying a cross today. Unless you count tattoos, possibly.

The cross in the picture was used on German tanks, planes and other vehicles. But they also had the "iron cross" that was an awarded medal.

I think the difference is that the cross, eagle, skull and lightning bolts were all already commonly or well known in the west but the Swastika was not and therefore attributed specifically to the Nazis.

[wintermute]

The only thing the students learned were the historical goosestepping, the Hitler imitations and the Zeig Heils, of the Nazis. Somehow the history of The Holocaust, the tyranny and barbarism of the Nazi Party, was missing from the historical references the students were using to design a Celebration of Nazism Sports Day. Yeah, I'll buy that for a dollar. I know displays of this sort are commonplace and even planned for school children in Muslim nations, where the Protocols of Zion are taught in the schools and on television as an accurate historical document, but I did not expect to see it in Thailand. The worst thing is they let the students carry it through, even after they knew what they were doing.

You're getting a little outraged over nothing though. It's just pure simple minded ignorance at work here. Most Thais (unless they are upper middle or high so educated abroad) are just clueless about all things. If you explain a lot of people died and such they have no concept of this sort of mass murder. Ask them about Pol Pot sometime and they'll give you some spiel about Cambodians being "mai di" but they won't understand the root causes or how it could happen anywhere. Even when it comes to Buddhism the beliefs here have nothing to do with actual Buddhism. They believe in magical amulets, spells, potions, and other crap that's literally from the dark ages.

[MaxYakov]

Haven't seen a cross all day (Luftwaffe Fw 190):

Interesting, was the cross a 'secondary symbol' for the nazis of WWII? I never saw it on one of their flags. I don't see any of 'these groups' displaying a cross today. Unless you count tattoos, possibly.

The Nazis were a socialist political party (aka A Gang) that had a tendency to commandeer things (to put it nicely) like whole industries including the German military, whose insignia was the Teutonic-Knights cross. The military probably grudgingly allowed the Nazi symbol on their equipment, but limited its size and prominence (speculation on my part). This would also explain why the Swastikas were on armbands that could be removed easily and not a permanent part of an officer's uniform (from my observations, at least).

Edited September 30, 2011 by MaxYakov

[wintermute]

The cross in the picture was used on German tanks, planes and other vehicles. But they also had the "iron cross" that was an awarded medal.

I think the difference is that the cross, eagle, skull and lightning bolts were all already commonly or well known in the west but the Swastika was not and therefore attributed specifically to the Nazis.

The rotated clockwise swastika is absolutely a nazi symbol. The hindu/buddhist swastika is different. Stop trying to argue that this was all a misunderstanding. They were meddling with historical concepts that they just plainly didn't understand because the staff and students are clueless simpletons.

[siamiam]

Haven't seen a cross all day (Luftwaffe Fw 190):

Interesting, was the cross a 'secondary symbol' for the nazis of WWII? I never saw it on one of their flags. I don't see any of 'these groups' displaying a cross today. Unless you count tattoos, possibly.

The cross in the picture was used on German tanks, planes and other vehicles. But they also had the "iron cross" that was an awarded medal.

I think the difference is that the cross, eagle, skull and lightning bolts were all already commonly or well known in the west but the Swastika was not and therefore attributed specifically to the Nazis.

That makes sense to me.

[uptheos]

Forget all the bullcrap excuses about the swastika being a common symbol.

For the Nazi's this particular design was well thought out and nothing to do with other cultures.

In Mein Kampf pages 496-497, Adolph Hitler defined the symbolism of the the swastika flag: the red represents the social idea of the Nazi movement, the white disk represents the national idea, and the black swastika represents "the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of creative work, which always has been and always will be anti - Semitic".

Even for Nazi apologists, it can't be much clearer than that can it?

Edited September 30, 2011 by uptheos

[Nisa]

The cross in the picture was used on German tanks, planes and other vehicles. But they also had the "iron cross" that was an awarded medal.

I think the difference is that the cross, eagle, skull and lightning bolts were all already commonly or well known in the west but the Swastika was not and therefore attributed specifically to the Nazis.

The rotated clockwise swastika is absolutely a nazi symbol. The hindu/buddhist swastika is different. Stop trying to argue that this was all a misunderstanding. They were meddling with historical concepts that they just plainly didn't understand because the staff and students are clueless simpletons.

Not sure what the heck you are responding to beyond what is in your own mind but okay ....

[siamiam]

Haven't seen a cross all day (Luftwaffe Fw 190):

Interesting, was the cross a 'secondary symbol' for the nazis of WWII? I never saw it on one of their flags. I don't see any of 'these groups' displaying a cross today. Unless you count tattoos, possibly.

The Nazis were a socialist political party (aka A Gang) that had a tendency to commandeer things (to put it nicely) like whole industries including the German military, whose insignia was the Teutonic-Knights cross. The military probably grudgingly allowed the Nazi symbol on their equipment, but limited its size and prominence (speculation on my part). This would also explain why the Swastikas were on armbands that could be removed easily and not a permanent part of an officer's uniform (from my observations, at least).

Kind of like the cross being the symbol of the soldiers who were allowed to return home after the war and the swastika the symbol of those who went to trail after the war.

[wintermute]

Not sure what the heck you are responding to beyond what is in your own mind but okay ....

Thanks for proving my point. Those two images are nothing alike. Your apologism would be grossly offensive if it weren't so naive and droll to read. Also the nazi swatstika in iconography has a rotated appearance 99% of the time. They probably kept it straight for medals but it's obviously not the Hindu version. Just like how the banner swastikas being flown by the Thai students are obviously not the Hindu version.

[Thai at Heart]

If you read all of my post, I state that there is an enormously obvious difference between religious symbols of the swastika and nazi usage, but if I saw someone dressed in an SS uniform, marching around with his swastika the wrong way round, would it make any difference to what it meant?

No, not to me. And, my comments on this thread did not pertain to the original post, but rather to a situation brought up during the course of this thread, which involved situations without any nazi paraphernalia, only a swastika.

My interest in the swastika is purely of a historical nature, not religious and certainly not political.

What if the nazis had adopted the Christian cross, or the Star of David as their symbol, instead of the swastika. I suspect that today, groups associated with nazis, or any type of ugliness (racism, etc.), would not be allowed to continue using these symbols (cross, star). They would be hounded legally, for sacrilegious activity, etc.. In a better world, perhaps we would see this happen because of the continuing use by these groups of the swastika, a sacred symbol to many. If it were possible to prevent the continuing sacrilegious use of the swastika, then perhaps the sacred symbol could be more quickly restored.

It is an old sacred symbol to many many different cultures, which has been used in many many different ways for different symbolism. One could say, the Nazis marketed it better than anyone else, but undoubtedly to many it has a very clear contextual meaning.

As to why they chose the swastika instead of the Christian cross, the reasons are well documented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika

In the Western world, the symbol experienced a resurgence following the archaeological work in the late 19th century of Heinrich Schliemann, who discovered the symbol in the site of ancient Troy and associated it with the ancient migrations of Proto-Indo-Europeans. He connected it with similar shapes found on ancient pots in Germany, and theorized that the swastika was a "significant religious symbol of our remote ancestors", linking Germanic, Greek and Indo-Iranian cultures.[47][48] By the early 20th century, it was used worldwide and was regarded as a symbol of good luck and success.

The work of Schliemann soon became intertwined with the völkisch movements, for which the swastika was a symbol of the "Aryan race", a concept that came to be equated by theorists such as Alfred Rosenberg with a Nordic master race originating in northern Europe. Since its adoption by the National Socialist German Worker's Party of Adolf Hitler, the swastika has been associated with Nazism, fascism, racism (white supremacy), the Axis powers in World War II, and the Holocaust in much of the West. The swastika remains a core symbol of Neo-Nazi groups, and is used regularly by activist groups to signify their opinion of supposed Nazi-like behavior of organizations and individuals they oppose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%B6lkisch_movement

I can't deny that when I see it conceptualised on a red flag in a white circle, it signifies Naziism to me, as would just about any of us. Do I get my knickers in a twist if I see it on a buddhist carving? No, because I have taken the time to read up on its origins and significance. If I see it tatooed on a skin head marching through the streets chanting racial supremacist chants, it isn't too difficult to discern its significance in that context.

Context is everything to what it means, because it is by definition a symbol, it can mean whatever context ascribes to it. So as I said, if a bloke dressed in SS replica gear happens to have it the wrong way round because he is a dumb ass, I don't think I need to ask him if he is symbolising a Hindu.

As to if they had chosen the christian cross, well, he probably would have had a far harder time getting people to follow the beliefs, because reconciling being a fascist and a christian at the same time tends to be pretty difficult.

Relation of religion to fascism

Scholar of fascism, Stanley Payne notes that fundamental to fascism was the foundation of a purely materialistic "civic religion" that would "displace preceding structures of belief and relegate supernatural religion to a secondary role, or to none at all", and that "though there were specific examples of religious or would-be 'Christian fascists,' fascism presupposed a post-Christian, post-religious, secular, and immanent frame of reference."[7] One theory is that religion and fascism could never have a lasting connection because both are a "holistic weltanschauung" claiming the whole of the person. [8] Along these lines, Yale political scientist, Juan Linz and others have noted that secularization had created a void which could be filled by a total ideology, making totalitarianism possible,[9][10] and Roger Griffin has characterized fascism as a type of anti-religious political religion.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

Yes the swastika was subverted by Naziism. Use in the modern day has been curtatiled because of its modern meaning, so as not to lead to misunderstanding. In a Nazi context it symbolises one of the most evil symbols around. It isn't my fault that the Nazis subverted it and that I and many others recognise when it is being used in this way.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Thai at Heart

[siamiam]

The rotated clockwise swastika is absolutely a nazi symbol. The hindu/buddhist swastika is different.

Religious swastikas can be found in many different varieties, pointing both clockwise and anti-clockwise.

[MaxYakov]

Haven't seen a cross all day (Luftwaffe Fw 190):

Interesting, was the cross a 'secondary symbol' for the nazis of WWII? I never saw it on one of their flags. I don't see any of 'these groups' displaying a cross today. Unless you count tattoos, possibly.

Edit:

Ok, I forgot about the KKK and the iron cross. I guess they use these symbols legally. So, that brings the question: why do these symbols seem to be less controversial now than the swastika?

You probably didn't notice the cross with the panic of having the Bismark trying to blow you out of the water that day. It looks like the Nazis won the 'my symbol is/will be bigger than yours' argument with the German military in this case. (German battle flag):

Edited September 30, 2011 by MaxYakov

[rubin]

OMG, just wondering how long will this swastika discussion go on? I don't understand those people who are trying to convince everybody that Nazi fascist swastika is a wonderful peace loving sign. Geez! This world truly has gone nuts. Can you separate two swastikas please - the ancient hindu aryan buddhist chinese falong gong whatever right handen or left handed swastika is OK, the Nazi black right handed swastika on white circle on red background or any other swastikas used by Third Reich between 1933-1945 is a NO NO (Fascist sign). Is it so difficult to understand???

[Nisa]

Just like how the banner swastikas being flown by the Thai students are obviously not the Hindu version.

Is there one post here by anyone that suggested the students meant to represent a Hindu Swastika or anyone of the many others variation going back many centuries?

[siamiam]

OMG, just wondering how long will this swastika discussion go on? I don't understand those people who are trying to convince everybody that Nazi fascist swastika is a wonderful peace loving sign.

And who are 'those people' to which you refer? I haven't seen one such post on this thread. Please quote any such post.

[siamiam]

You probably didn't notice the cross with the panic of having the Bismark trying to blow you out of the water that day. It looks like the Nazis won the 'my symbol is/will be bigger than yours' argument with the German military in this case. (German battle flag):

OK, I have now seen a cross on a nazi flag. No panic though. Yes, it seems the cross was spared the stigma that the swastika has collected.

[uptheos]

The rotated clockwise swastika is absolutely a nazi symbol. The hindu/buddhist swastika is different.

Religious swastikas can be found in many different varieties, pointing both clockwise and anti-clockwise.

Yes, but since you just don't understand the significance of the swastika and colours, representing Hitler's Nazi's here it is again.

Hopefully, the penny will drop.

In Mein Kampf pages 496-497, Adolph Hitler defined the symbolism of the the swastika flag: the red represents the social idea of the Nazi movement, the white disk represents the national idea, and the black swastika represents "the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of creative work, which always has been and always will be anti - Semitic".

"different varieties, pointing both clockwise and anti-clockwise". This is totally irrelevant .

Edited September 30, 2011 by uptheos

[MaxYakov]

You probably didn't notice the cross with the panic of having the Bismark trying to blow you out of the water that day. It looks like the Nazis won the 'my symbol is/will be bigger than yours' argument with the German military in this case. (German battle flag):

OK, I have now seen a cross on a nazi flag. No panic though. Yes, it seems the cross was spared the stigma that the swastika has collected.

Well ... up until the Sacred Hearts incident, at least.

[Nisa]

OMG, just wondering how long will this swastika discussion go on? I don't understand those people who are trying to convince everybody that Nazi fascist swastika is a wonderful peace loving sign. Geez! This world truly has gone nuts. Can you separate two swastikas please - the ancient hindu aryan buddhist chinese falong gong whatever right handen or left handed swastika is OK, the Nazi black right handed swastika on white circle on red background or any other swastikas used by Third Reich between 1933-1945 is a NO NO (Fascist sign). Is it so difficult to understand???

How about people simply not assigning emotionally meanings to symbols. Regardless of color or slant, many people will get upset at seeing somebody display a swastika. Some people even claim conspiracies in seeing them in aerial photos, architecture, art work and currency to name a few. The most common use of a swastika, Nazis & Hitler these days is to relate them to a politician you don't like.

Clearly these kids dressed as Nazis and that was their intention but just as clearly we should know that their intention was not to offend and therefore we shouldn't be offended.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Nisa

[siamiam]

Yes the swastika was subverted by Naziism. Use in the modern day has been curtatiled because of its modern meaning, so as not to lead to misunderstanding. In a Nazi context it symbolises one of the most evil symbols around. It isn't my fault that the Nazis subverted it and that I and many others recognise when it is being used in this way.

We are basically on the same page. However, judging by how misread I have been by people in life, simply because of the way I look (or the way they think I look), or the color of my skin, I know there is a small percentage with powers of perception not up to the standard of you, me, and the majority of people.

[wintermute]

How about people simply not assigning emotionally meanings to symbols. Regardless of color or slant, many people will get upset at seeing somebody display a swastika. Some people even claim conspiracies in seeing them in aerial photos, architecture, art work and currency to name a few. The most common use of a swastika, Nazis & Hitler these days is to relate them to a politician you don't like.

Clearly these kids dressed as Nazis and that was their intention but just as clearly we should know that their intention was not to offend and therefore we shouldn't be offended.

Is it ok if I urinate on the grave of your dead relatives? After all what i'm doing is simply urinating and is symbolically meaningless. You shouldn't assign emotions to such actions after all.

[uptheos]

Clearly these kids dressed as Nazis and that was their intention but just as clearly we should know that their intention was not to offend and therefore we shouldn't be offended.

I'm not offended at the kids, they are taught nothing so they know nothing.

I'm disgusted at the nun, although having a barber and a couple of katoey's in the team - she must be quite liberal thinking.

Better the kids ask to go to a proper school.

[siamiam]

The rotated clockwise swastika is absolutely a nazi symbol. The hindu/buddhist swastika is different.

Religious swastikas can be found in many different varieties, pointing both clockwise and anti-clockwise.

Yes, but since you just don't understand the significance of the swastika and colours, representing Hitler's Nazi's here it is again.

Hopefully, the penny will drop.

In Mein Kampf pages 496-497, Adolph Hitler defined the symbolism of the the swastika flag: the red represents the social idea of the Nazi movement, the white disk represents the national idea, and the black swastika represents "the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of creative work, which always has been and always will be anti - Semitic".

"different varieties, pointing both clockwise and anti-clockwise". This is totally irrelevant .

Good grief, what are you on about man? I don't care what Hitler saw in the swastika. My point, which you fail to see relevance in, is simply that an ignorant person could wear a nazi swastika, with nothing but religious non-nazi intentions, and that a similarly ignorant person could do him harm for it. Why is that so hard for people to grasp?

[MaxYakov]

Forget all the bullcrap excuses about the swastika being a common symbol.

For the Nazi's this particular design was well thought out and nothing to do with other cultures.

In Mein Kampf pages 496-497, Adolph Hitler defined the symbolism of the the swastika flag: the red represents the social idea of the Nazi movement, the white disk represents the national idea, and the black swastika represents "the mission of the struggle for the victory of the Aryan man, and, by the same token, the victory of creative work, which always has been and always will be anti - Semitic".

Even for Nazi apologists, it can't be much clearer than that can it?

Agreed. But I'd bet that it takes on an uncommon value, maybe even religious, when it's painted on the tail of an Fw 190 that's trying to put 20 mm projectiles through you at a high-rate. It does make me wonder, though, if Hitler and/or the Nazis had trademarked it.

[Thai at Heart]

OMG, just wondering how long will this swastika discussion go on? I don't understand those people who are trying to convince everybody that Nazi fascist swastika is a wonderful peace loving sign. Geez! This world truly has gone nuts. Can you separate two swastikas please - the ancient hindu aryan buddhist chinese falong gong whatever right handen or left handed swastika is OK, the Nazi black right handed swastika on white circle on red background or any other swastikas used by Third Reich between 1933-1945 is a NO NO (Fascist sign). Is it so difficult to understand???

How about people simply not assigning emotionally meanings to symbols. Regardless of color or slant, many people will get upset at seeing somebody display a swastika. Some people even claim conspiracies in seeing them in aerial photos, architecture, art work and currency to name a few. The most common use of a swastika, Nazis & Hitler these days is to relate them to a politician you don't like.

Clearly these kids dressed as Nazis and that was their intention but just as clearly we should know that their intention was not to offend and therefore we shouldn't be offended.

Considering that we are living in a country where you can be put in jail for drawing on an inanimate picture of someone, I think the defence of "We didn't mean to offend" is rather vacuous. Thai culture is predicated with avoiding offending anyone.

Beyond that, how does any of us know that they actually didn't mean to offend. Maybe little Somchai has downloaded mein kampf and thinks it is a good read.

However, to err is human after all, so I do forgive the kids, since they are kids and they hopefully will have been raked over the coals and taught quite a lesson by this. However, the teachers, well, I hope they do get into some trouble with this. 10mn lines

"I will not allow fascist parades to be organised in my school". Unfortunately, reading the apology, I have a feeling nothing of any great consequence will have happened.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Thai at Heart

[Nisa]

How about people simply not assigning emotionally meanings to symbols. Regardless of color or slant, many people will get upset at seeing somebody display a swastika. Some people even claim conspiracies in seeing them in aerial photos, architecture, art work and currency to name a few. The most common use of a swastika, Nazis & Hitler these days is to relate them to a politician you don't like.

Clearly these kids dressed as Nazis and that was their intention but just as clearly we should know that their intention was not to offend and therefore we shouldn't be offended.

Is it ok if I urinate on the grave of your dead relatives? After all what i'm doing is simply urinating and is symbolically meaningless. You shouldn't assign emotions to such actions after all.

If you read what I wrote then you would see intentions does come into play. You might also want to consider a physical action against somebody's property is much different than an act of speech such as dress and signs.

As for were you choose to urinate, it is completely up to you and as long as you are obeying laws, I won't be offended.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Nisa

[cmsally]

Some people seem to have lost the plot. This is not about one lonely little humble swastika - whatever its orientation!

Its about swastikas as part of a very well researched parade including:

1 Many swastikas

2 Nazi flags

3 Person dressed up as Hitler

4 Nazi banners with swastikas

5 Huge nazi banner with Hitler, bombers and dictators or whoever they are

6 a parade with goosestepping and aforementioned paraphernalia

7 Someone dressed as SS officer

8 Plastic machine guns

Geez where does the ambiguity come with the Hindu symbol. Unbelievable!

[MaxYakov]

How about people simply not assigning emotionally meanings to symbols. Regardless of color or slant, many people will get upset at seeing somebody display a swastika. Some people even claim conspiracies in seeing them in aerial photos, architecture, art work and currency to name a few. The most common use of a swastika, Nazis & Hitler these days is to relate them to a politician you don't like.

Clearly these kids dressed as Nazis and that was their intention but just as clearly we should know that their intention was not to offend and therefore we shouldn't be offended.

Is it ok if I urinate on the grave of your dead relatives? After all what i'm doing is simply urinating and is symbolically meaningless. You shouldn't assign emotions to such actions after all.

Nisa: I'd say their most common use is as collectible memorablia (just above their use as school parade paraphernalia). As to 'people simply not assigning emotionally [sic] meanings to symbols' - Good Luck with that effort! It's probably a human built-in by now.

Edited September 30, 2011 by MaxYakov

[Jingthing]

Geez where does the ambiguity come with the Hindu symbol. Unbelievable!

It is indeed very bizarre how this thread has obsessed on a totally arcane side show about non-Nazi swastikas. It does seem for some to be a way to obscure the reality of the the obvious and undeniable NAZI nature of the CM parade.

[MaxYakov]

Some people seem to have lost the plot. This is not about one lonely little humble swastika - whatever its orientation!

Its about swastikas as part of a very well researched parade including:

1 Many swastikas

2 Nazi flags

3 Person dressed up as Hitler

4 Nazi banners with swastikas

5 Huge nazi banner with Hitler, bombers and dictators or whoever they are

6 a parade with goosestepping and aforementioned paraphernalia

7 Someone dressed as SS officer

8 Plastic machine guns

Geez where does the ambiguity come with the Hindu symbol. Unbelievable!

Just good, innocent, clean fun. Weren't those plastic machine guns actually water pistols? They could have gone the extra kilometer and re-enacted the Siege of Stalingrad or something but, alas, the Red color/team had already been assigned to them.

Edited September 30, 2011 by MaxYakov