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Thai Student Nazi Dress-Up Day Causes Outrage

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By webfact
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Jingthing Legendary Member

Jingthing

Posted
Posted (edited)

I actually don't believe it is common that the Nazis are celebrated heroically in Thailand or Asia and never said such.

Funny, you posted links to that effect. Twisty, twisty. Let the objective readers decide what is going on here.

Edited by Jingthing
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SteeleJoe Ruby Member

SteeleJoe

Posted
Posted

Here you go Nisa. You must have missed this (and the other posts commenting about your insertion of Vietnam):

Keep in mind that although Thailand didn't cause genocide during the war, they were on the losing side. I wouldn't be surprised if in the US most kids believe the US won the Vietnam war based on the fact most of their education about the subject comes from Hollywood.

Leaving aside the rather odd non sequitur (can't work out the connection between the 2 sentences at all or their relevance), or even whether it's at all true that most of education most US kids get about the Vietnam war is comes from Hollywood (which I rather doubt and wonder why you can so confidently claim such ), I can't think of a single Hollywood movie that suggests in any way the US won that war. Indeed most or all of them (understandably) never reveal that the US won every single engagement of significance and still lost (ie tactical successes -militarily, massive strategic failure - politically) and indeed the loss of the war is arguably central to most of the stories.

EDIT to change "paragraphs" to "sentences"

MaxYakov Platinum Member

MaxYakov

Posted
Posted (edited)

Nisa, why don't you do as favor today and 'buy into' this obscure symbol? Any doubt of the 'intentions of the person displaying' it?

Because it appears many are missing the point. If the students had turned the swastikas to not be on an angle, there would still be offense. Intention is what matters and assigning too much meanings to symbols is idiotic. Although the students intent was to dress as Nazis, they clearly didn't have any intention of saying they felt positive about the holocaust or other aspects of the Nazis.

Keep in mind in Germany they have given symbols so much meaning that members of anti-nazi groups have been prosecuted for displaying images such as this ...

Anti-Nazi.jpg

Yes, and if they'd used Charlie Chaplin's double X surrogate for the swastika and replaced any Hitler images with those of Charlie, there could not have been a peep from anyone, even if they'd retained the rest of the symbols (perhaps). Even spoofing Charlie's spoof in order to retain the flavor of the display would probably have been too risky. It could have been done even at the last minute to salvage the investment, but there would have had to have been someone with the judgment to spot the scandal potential. A savvy adult.

The rest of the symbols you ask? The goosestepping, the uniforms, surrogate weapons, German Eagle banners (these would have had to be tweaked as well - perhaps a chicken). The whole thing was rife with Third Reich symbolism of all kinds. Makes me wonder if they had embellished with German marches as well.

But they can't change what happened any more than the Germans can change their history.

Edited by MaxYakov
Nisa Ruby Member

Nisa

Posted
Posted

I actually don't believe it is common that the Nazis are celebrated heroically in Thailand or Asia and never said such.

Funny, you posted links to that effect. Twisty, twisty. Let the objective readers decide what is going on here.

I think you are a being a bit "twisty" here since I never posted a link to indicate I though Thai people considered him a hero. I posted a link to the Israel Ambassador accepting the schools apology and his belief there was no bad intentions meant and HE added. "They tend to think that he (Hitler) was a hero and not a monster as he really was so I think it is important to strengthen the educational level."

Jingthing Legendary Member

Jingthing

Posted
Posted (edited)

I actually don't believe it is common that the Nazis are celebrated heroically in Thailand or Asia and never said such.

Funny, you posted links to that effect. Twisty, twisty. Let the objective readers decide what is going on here.

I think you are a being a bit "twisty" here since I never posted a link to indicate I though Thai people considered him a hero. I posted a link to the Israel Ambassador accepting the schools apology and his belief there was no bad intentions meant and HE added. "They tend to think that he (Hitler) was a hero and not a monster as he really was so I think it is important to strengthen the educational level."

Unbelievable! News flash -- your posting record doesn't go away.

Here is your post and including clearly pasted in text. BTW, I AGREE with that text. The EDUCATION in Asia does need to be adjusted to teach the EVIL of the Third Reich more definitively. Thailand, being so xenophobic and perhaps embarrassed they were on the Axis fascist side during WW2 perhaps needs this reform more than other countries.

Your post -- #1054 Nisa

PASTED TEXT

This type of education treats Hitler and the Nazi Party as charismatic and powerful leaders of countries during wartime, instead of war criminals as elsewhere.

In case this needs spelling out, YES, portraying Nazis are charismatic and powerful is the SAME THING as portraying them heroically.

Are we Kosher now?

Edited by Jingthing
Nisa Ruby Member

Nisa

Posted
Posted

Keep in mind that although Thailand didn't cause genocide during the war, they were on the losing side. I wouldn't be surprised if in the US most kids believe the US won the Vietnam war based on the fact most of their education about the subject comes from Hollywood.

Leaving aside the rather odd non sequitur (can't work out the connection between the 2 sentences at all or their relevance), or even whether it's at all true that most of education most US kids get about the Vietnam war is comes from Hollywood (which I rather doubt and wonder why you can so confidently claim such ), I can't think of a single Hollywood movie that suggests in any way the US won that war. Indeed most or all of them (understandably) never reveal that the US won every single engagement of significance and still lost (ie tactical successes -militarily, massive strategic failure - politically) and indeed the loss of the war is arguably central to most of the stories.

EDIT to change "paragraphs" to "sentences"

If posting the entire quote doesn't help then not sure what will .. but check out a Rambo movie while you wait.

I've missed anywhere that states the teachers had the kids march and in fact everything I have read states the kids were responsible for the display as it is tradition to keep the dress a secret before the event. The teachers also likely went through the same Thai education curriculum that has left the majority of Thais with limited information about the war in Europe and the continued sensitivity some in the west still feel towards Nazis and Nazi symbols.

Keep in mind that although Thailand didn't cause genocide during the war, they were on the losing side. I wouldn't be surprised if in the US most kids believe the US won the Vietnam war based on the fact most of their education about the subject comes from Hollywood.

Nisa Ruby Member

Nisa

Posted
Posted (edited)

I actually don't believe it is common that the Nazis are celebrated heroically in Thailand or Asia and never said such.

Funny, you posted links to that effect. Twisty, twisty. Let the objective readers decide what is going on here.

Unbelievable! News flash -- your posting record doesn't go away.

Here is your post and including clearly pasted in text. BTW, I AGREE with that text. The EDUCATION in Asia does need to be adjusted to teach the EVIL of the Third Reich more definitively. Thailand, being so xenophobic and perhaps embarrassed they were on the Axis fascist side during WW2 perhaps needs this reform more than other countries.

Your post -- #1054 Nisa

PASTED TEXT

This type of education treats Hitler and the Nazi Party as charismatic and powerful leaders of countries during wartime, instead of war criminals as elsewhere.

In case this needs spelling out, YES, portraying Nazis are charismatic and powerful is the SAME THING as portraying them heroically.

Are we Kosher now?

You are Quoting ONE SENTENCE from the NAZI CHIC in ASIA Wikipedia link that talks about a view of Hitler NOT as a hero but as a "charismatic and powerful leader" both of which he was by the way and NO rational person could argue this. The point of this sentence is that in some parts of the world the whole story of Hitler;s atrocities are not taught.

It should now be clear that you are 100% wrong in trying to imply I believe Thais see Hitler as a hero.

So, while my posts may not go away, it seems your ability to comprehend what is written does.

Edited by Nisa
Jingthing Legendary Member

Jingthing

Posted
Posted (edited)

So, while my posts may not go away, it seems your ability to comprehend what is written in outside links does.

Again, I will leave it up to the judgment of OBJECTIVE readers about the obvious games you are playing here. Debating with you is like wrestling an oiled Anaconda. In any case, yes too many Thais don't know enough of the real story of what the Nazis represent. No, its not the most important issue around, but it's the one we are talking about, not swastikas.

Edited by Jingthing
Jingthing Legendary Member

Jingthing

Posted
Posted

Cant see the big deal myself.....In fact its refreshing that manipulated history isnt forced feed to everyone. besides everyone should just let it go and move on.

Come on, you actually believe Thais aren't force fed their version of history?

Nisa Ruby Member

Nisa

Posted
Posted

Cant see the big deal myself.....In fact its refreshing that manipulated history isnt forced feed to everyone. besides everyone should just let it go and move on.

Come on, you actually believe Thais aren't force fed their version of history?

What countries don't? Being proud of your country and believing it is the best is a common theme taught all around the globe as is rewriting history to help match those themes. What is sad are those individuals who take this to a level of needing to condemn others for not believing like they do.

It is no different in the US ... rarely a day goes by were one is not reminded we are the most free people on the planet but few people know the US has more of its population behind bars than most (if not all) other countries on the planet. We also have the best Justice System in the world were we execute and imprison a disproportional number of minorities.

MaxYakov Platinum Member

MaxYakov

Posted
Posted (edited)
Although the students intent was to dress as Nazis, they clearly didn't have any intention of saying they felt positive about the holocaust or other aspects of the Nazis.

I think you go too far here. You don't know exactly what is in the brains of the Thai students. I agree they weren't making a pro holocaust statement. However, I reckon they were making a PRO NAZI statement based on their amazingly distorted knowledge and understanding of what Nazi means. Like you have posed AD NAUSEUM, in Asia the Nazis are often celebrated heroically. Based obviously on ignorance.

The nature of the satirical 'Nazism' banner doesn't support a 'PRO NAZI statement' hypothesis for the incident. Nor do we really know exactly what their knowledge of The Third Reich is. But I'd bet they couldn't tell you what the Nazi acronym stood for, albeit there's that pesky banner (where we still haven't identified all the figures on it).

A Google search brings up not much for this search string (Thailand Asia Nazis celebrated admired) except this 2009 Thai/Nazi Article that reviews a Hitler advertising gimmick in Pattaya and the other 2007 school incident in Bangkok. I'd say the Red Shirts exceed the risk of any alleged Pro/Neo-Nazi movement by orders of magnitude.

Can anyone who stated or believes that 'in Asia the Nazis are often celebrated heroically' cite some references, please?

Edited by MaxYakov
Nisa Ruby Member

Nisa

Posted
Posted (edited)

Can anyone who stated or believes that 'in Asia the Nazis are often celebrated heroically' cite some references, please?

This was said by the Israel Ambassador ... and every knows that Israel and the Simon Wiesenthal Center are known for over the top statements when it comes to such topics. Beyond this one comment, I found his response reasonable.

The Israeli embassy said it had received a letter of apology after contacting the the school.

"I think that really it was done out of ignorance, not out of bad intentions," said Itzhak Shoham, the Israeli ambassador to Thailand.

"Many people here in Asia are not aware of what happened in Europe.

"They tend to think that he (Hitler) was a hero and not a monster as he really was so I think it is important to strengthen the educational level."

Edited by Nisa
MaxYakov Platinum Member

MaxYakov

Posted
Posted (edited)

Can anyone who stated or believes that 'in Asia the Nazis are often celebrated heroically' cite some references, please?

This was said by the Israel Ambassador ... and every knows that Israel and the Simon Wiesenthal Center are known for over the top statements when it comes to such topics. Beyond this one comment, I found his response reasonable.

The Israeli embassy said it had received a letter of apology after contacting the the school.

"I think that really it was done out of ignorance, not out of bad intentions," said Itzhak Shoham, the Israeli ambassador to Thailand.

"Many people here in Asia are not aware of what happened in Europe.

"They tend to think that he (Hitler) was a hero and not a monster as he really was so I think it is important to strengthen the educational level."

I saw problems with that statement earlier and it's not very diplomatic to boot. Another problem with it is how can 'Many people here in Asia are not aware of what happened in Europe' NOT conflict with the following sentence? How can you not know what happened in Europe and yet idolize Hitler?

Being able to idolize Hitler requires some knowledge of something about him and his actions unless he's being idolized based solely on his images, films, spiffy threads, silly mustache, etc. Even if it's based on mis/disinformation, there has to be something more substantial available about him to make him a hero in Asia. I can't cite anything in my experience that does anything but either demonize or ridicule him.

Either the ambassador is misinformed or Asian people are being misinformed.

What could be the possible sources for this? What does the ambassador know about Asian idolization of Hitler that we don't, since he's not (and really couldn't, realistically) citing specific examples?

What do 'people in Asia' know about Hitler and how did they come to know it? Do they really 'tend to think he was a hero'?

I'm tending myself toward your 'ambassador over-the-top' hypothesis, but we don't have the datum to seriously support any kind of theory.

Edited by MaxYakov
Nisa Ruby Member

Nisa

Posted
Posted

Can anyone who stated or believes that 'in Asia the Nazis are often celebrated heroically' cite some references, please?

This was said by the Israel Ambassador ... and every knows that Israel and the Simon Wiesenthal Center are known for over the top statements when it comes to such topics. Beyond this one comment, I found his response reasonable.

The Israeli embassy said it had received a letter of apology after contacting the the school.

"I think that really it was done out of ignorance, not out of bad intentions," said Itzhak Shoham, the Israeli ambassador to Thailand.

"Many people here in Asia are not aware of what happened in Europe.

"They tend to think that he (Hitler) was a hero and not a monster as he really was so I think it is important to strengthen the educational level."

I saw problems with that statement earlier and it's not very diplomatic to boot. Another problem with it is how can 'Many people here in Asia are not aware of what happened in Europe' NOT conflict with the following sentence? How can you not know what happened in Europe and yet idolize Hitler?

Being able to idolize Hitler requires some knowledge of something about him and his actions unless he's being idolized based solely on his images, films, spiffy threads, silly mustache, etc. Even if it's based on mis/disinformation, there has to be something more substantial available about him to make him a hero in Asia. I can't cite anything in my experience that does anything but either demonize or ridicule him.

Either the ambassador is misinformed or Asian people are being misinformed.

What could be the possible sources for this? What does the ambassador know about Asian idolization of Hitler that we don't, since he's not (and really couldn't, realistically) citing specific examples?

What do 'people in Asia' know about Hitler and how did they come to know it? Do they really 'tend to think he was a hero'?

I'm tending myself toward your 'ambassador over-the-top' hypothesis, but we don't have the datum to seriously support any kind of theory.

A little more over the top ... Wiesenthal Center says there were "gun toting adults" participating in the "Nazi Parade" http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441467&ct=11233739

Nisa Ruby Member

Nisa

Posted
Posted

Can anyone who stated or believes that 'in Asia the Nazis are often celebrated heroically' cite some references, please?

This was said by the Israel Ambassador ... and every knows that Israel and the Simon Wiesenthal Center are known for over the top statements when it comes to such topics. Beyond this one comment, I found his response reasonable.

The Israeli embassy said it had received a letter of apology after contacting the the school.

"I think that really it was done out of ignorance, not out of bad intentions," said Itzhak Shoham, the Israeli ambassador to Thailand.

"Many people here in Asia are not aware of what happened in Europe.

"They tend to think that he (Hitler) was a hero and not a monster as he really was so I think it is important to strengthen the educational level."

I saw problems with that statement earlier and it's not very diplomatic to boot. Another problem with it is how can 'Many people here in Asia are not aware of what happened in Europe' NOT conflict with the following sentence? How can you not know what happened in Europe and yet idolize Hitler?

Being able to idolize Hitler requires some knowledge of something about him and his actions unless he's being idolized based solely on his images, films, spiffy threads, silly mustache, etc. Even if it's based on mis/disinformation, there has to be something more substantial available about him to make him a hero in Asia. I can't cite anything in my experience that does anything but either demonize or ridicule him.

Either the ambassador is misinformed or Asian people are being misinformed.

What could be the possible sources for this? What does the ambassador know about Asian idolization of Hitler that we don't, since he's not (and really couldn't, realistically) citing specific examples?

What do 'people in Asia' know about Hitler and how did they come to know it? Do they really 'tend to think he was a hero'?

I'm tending myself toward your 'ambassador over-the-top' hypothesis, but we don't have the datum to seriously support any kind of theory.

A little more over the top ... Wiesenthal Center says there were "gun toting adults" participating in the "Nazi Parade" http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441467&ct=11233739

cmsally Ruby Member

cmsally

Posted
Posted

Meanwhile I am waiting to see which noodle stall has commandeered that humongous banner as a sunshade. :whistling:

As for the Israeli embassy reply; it is exactly as expected. They are being diplomatic otherwise it would effect business interests. I'm sure they know they can leave any protests up to international sources. They are not that stupid. Quoting what they say verbatim means nothing, they weigh it up and make up what seems like a suitable statement. Anything else can be done by organisations not related to business interests.

lovelomsak Gold Member

lovelomsak

Posted
Posted (edited)

Can anyone who stated or believes that 'in Asia the Nazis are often celebrated heroically' cite some references, please?

This was said by the Israel Ambassador ... and every knows that Israel and the Simon Wiesenthal Center are known for over the top statements when it comes to such topics. Beyond this one comment, I found his response reasonable.

The Israeli embassy said it had received a letter of apology after contacting the the school.

"I think that really it was done out of ignorance, not out of bad intentions," said Itzhak Shoham, the Israeli ambassador to Thailand.

"Many people here in Asia are not aware of what happened in Europe.

"They tend to think that he (Hitler) was a hero and not a monster as he really was so I think it is important to strengthen the educational level."

I saw problems with that statement earlier and it's not very diplomatic to boot. Another problem with it is how can 'Many people here in Asia are not aware of what happened in Europe' NOT conflict with the following sentence? How can you not know what happened in Europe and yet idolize Hitler?

Being able to idolize Hitler requires some knowledge of something about him and his actions unless he's being idolized based solely on his images, films, spiffy threads, silly mustache, etc. Even if it's based on mis/disinformation, there has to be something more substantial available about him to make him a hero in Asia. I can't cite anything in my experience that does anything but either demonize or ridicule him.

Either the ambassador is misinformed or Asian people are being misinformed.

What could be the possible sources for this? What does the ambassador know about Asian idolization of Hitler that we don't, since he's not (and really couldn't, realistically) citing specific examples?

What do 'people in Asia' know about Hitler and how did they come to know it? Do they really 'tend to think he was a hero'?

I'm tending myself toward your 'ambassador over-the-top' hypothesis, but we don't have the datum to seriously support any kind of theory.

A little more over the top ... Wiesenthal Center says there were "gun toting adults" participating in the "Nazi Parade" http://www.wiesentha...467&ct=11233739

I looked at all the pictures and all the people looked feminine. Could this be a subtle feminist statement by young women?

Subtle and in very bad taste.

Edited by lovelomsak
Nisa Ruby Member

Nisa

Posted
Posted

This was said by the Israel Ambassador ... and every knows that Israel and the Simon Wiesenthal Center are known for over the top statements when it comes to such topics. Beyond this one comment, I found his response reasonable.

The Israeli embassy said it had received a letter of apology after contacting the the school.

"I think that really it was done out of ignorance, not out of bad intentions," said Itzhak Shoham, the Israeli ambassador to Thailand.

"Many people here in Asia are not aware of what happened in Europe.

"They tend to think that he (Hitler) was a hero and not a monster as he really was so I think it is important to strengthen the educational level."

I saw problems with that statement earlier and it's not very diplomatic to boot. Another problem with it is how can 'Many people here in Asia are not aware of what happened in Europe' NOT conflict with the following sentence? How can you not know what happened in Europe and yet idolize Hitler?

Being able to idolize Hitler requires some knowledge of something about him and his actions unless he's being idolized based solely on his images, films, spiffy threads, silly mustache, etc. Even if it's based on mis/disinformation, there has to be something more substantial available about him to make him a hero in Asia. I can't cite anything in my experience that does anything but either demonize or ridicule him.

Either the ambassador is misinformed or Asian people are being misinformed.

What could be the possible sources for this? What does the ambassador know about Asian idolization of Hitler that we don't, since he's not (and really couldn't, realistically) citing specific examples?

What do 'people in Asia' know about Hitler and how did they come to know it? Do they really 'tend to think he was a hero'?

I'm tending myself toward your 'ambassador over-the-top' hypothesis, but we don't have the datum to seriously support any kind of theory.

A little more over the top ... Wiesenthal Center says there were "gun toting adults" participating in the "Nazi Parade" http://www.wiesentha...467&ct=11233739

I looked at all the pictures and all the people looked feminine. Could this be a subtle feminist statement by young women?

Subtle and in very bad taste.

I thought I read somewhere on this thread somebody saying it was a girl school but they may have drawn that conclusion from the pictures.

MaxYakov Platinum Member

MaxYakov

Posted
Posted

Can anyone who stated or believes that 'in Asia the Nazis are often celebrated heroically' cite some references, please?

This was said by the Israel Ambassador ... and every knows that Israel and the Simon Wiesenthal Center are known for over the top statements when it comes to such topics. Beyond this one comment, I found his response reasonable.

The Israeli embassy said it had received a letter of apology after contacting the the school.

"I think that really it was done out of ignorance, not out of bad intentions," said Itzhak Shoham, the Israeli ambassador to Thailand.

"Many people here in Asia are not aware of what happened in Europe.

"They tend to think that he (Hitler) was a hero and not a monster as he really was so I think it is important to strengthen the educational level."

I saw problems with that statement earlier and it's not very diplomatic to boot. Another problem with it is how can 'Many people here in Asia are not aware of what happened in Europe' NOT conflict with the following sentence? How can you not know what happened in Europe and yet idolize Hitler?

Being able to idolize Hitler requires some knowledge of something about him and his actions unless he's being idolized based solely on his images, films, spiffy threads, silly mustache, etc. Even if it's based on mis/disinformation, there has to be something more substantial available about him to make him a hero in Asia. I can't cite anything in my experience that does anything but either demonize or ridicule him.

Either the ambassador is misinformed or Asian people are being misinformed.

What could be the possible sources for this? What does the ambassador know about Asian idolization of Hitler that we don't, since he's not (and really couldn't, realistically) citing specific examples?

What do 'people in Asia' know about Hitler and how did they come to know it? Do they really 'tend to think he was a hero'?

I'm tending myself toward your 'ambassador over-the-top' hypothesis, but we don't have the datum to seriously support any kind of theory.

A little more over the top ... Wiesenthal Center says there were "gun toting adults" participating in the "Nazi Parade" http://www.wiesentha...467&ct=11233739

A slight misspelling of watergun-toting? Renaming the parade to 'Nazi'. A 3-4 'young person' hand-in-hand with a beautiful gal in a sexy dress. Eva Braun and Hitler's illegitimate son (recently promoted to Field Marshal), I suppose? Good thing there probably weren't lines at the showers that day and some phony Zyklon B canisters lying around or Israel might have declared war on Thailand.

MaxYakov Platinum Member

MaxYakov

Posted
Posted (edited)

Why wouldn't they admire Hitler? They admire their own fascist dictator and Hitler's ally Phibun.

Because they probably haven't even heard of Phibun, but if they have they would be admiring Tojo and not Hitler. That is unless some very serious history re-organization has occurred making Phibun into 'The Savior of Thailand' good guy who hadn't even heard of Hitler or Tojo or somesuch.

Edited by MaxYakov
MaxYakov Platinum Member

MaxYakov

Posted
Posted (edited)

I looked at all the pictures and all the people looked feminine. Could this be a subtle feminist statement by young women?

Subtle and in very bad taste.

Interesting hypothesis. Not that subtle but, agreed, in very bad taste. Could we expect otherwise of a feminist statement (hypothetical or not)?

Edited by MaxYakov
uptheos Star Member

uptheos

Posted
Posted

Heh, heh! If they had been sent then maybe this is some kind of bizarre revenge for having to endure the experience.

You can model something on anything you like, but if you only have know nothing morons running the school, it isn't going to work.

I reckon the 'academics' (where on earth did they get thousands from lol?) would have learned more by getting their hands dirty on a Kibbutz.

MaxYakov Platinum Member

MaxYakov

Posted
Posted (edited)

Heh, heh! If they had been sent then maybe this is some kind of bizarre revenge for having to endure the experience.

You can model something on anything you like, but if you only have know nothing morons running the school, it isn't going to work.

I reckon the 'academics' (where on earth did they get thousands from lol?) would have learned more by getting their hands dirty on a Kibbutz.

Somehow I just don't see a Catholic school having 'been modeled after Israel's experience and know-how' with aid from anybody. But, what the hay, TiT!

Edited by MaxYakov
uptheos Star Member

uptheos

Posted
Posted

Heh, heh! If they had been sent then maybe this is some kind of bizarre revenge for having to endure the experience.

You can model something on anything you like, but if you only have know nothing morons running the school, it isn't going to work.

I reckon the 'academics' (where on earth did they get thousands from lol?) would have learned more by getting their hands dirty on a Kibbutz.

Somehow I just don't see a Catholic school 'being modeled after Israel's experience and know-how' with aid from anybody. But, what the hay, TiT!

Well, it wouldn't get the blessing of Herr Ratzinger for starters.

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