Saudi King overturns woman driver's lashing sentence

[News_Editor]

Saudi King overturns woman driver's lashing sentence

2011-09-29 09:22:56 GMT+7 (ICT)

RIYADH (BNO NEWS) -- Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah on Wednesday overturned a court ruling sentencing a woman to ten lashes for defying the country's controversial ban on women driving, reports said.

The woman, identified only as Shaima, was sentenced to ten lashes on Tuesday after being found guilty of driving in July. She allegedly committed the crime in Jeddah, a city in western Saudi Arabia.

On Wednesday, Saudi Princess Ameerah - who is a fierce supporter of women's rights - said King Abdullah had overturned the sentence. "Thanks to our beloved King," she wrote on her Twitter account. "I'm sure all Saudi women will be so happy, I know I am."

Ameerah later added in another tweet: "In tough times we stand together, in good times we celebrate together. I'm proud to be Saudi. To all active Saudi women, thank you for your efforts."

Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal, Ameerah's husband and one of the richest persons in the world, later told Forbes that he had encouraged the King to overturn the sentence. "I lobbied the government and the King all the way," Al-Waleed told Forbes in a text message. "The reform path moves on, regardless of some voices here and there."

Princess Ameerah said she and Al-Waleed spoke to Shaima after the King overturned the sentence. "She was happy and she said: 'the King's orders washed the fears I lived with after this unjust sentence,'" Ameerah quoted her as saying.

The sentencing earlier this week led to international outrage. "Flogging is a cruel punishment in all circumstances but it beggars belief that the authorities in Saudi Arabia have imposed lashes on a woman apparently for merely driving a car," Amnesty International said on Tuesday.

-- © BNO News All rights reserved 2011-09-29

[Steely Dan]

What with women being allowed to vote in 2014 what is the world coming to? I don't suppose there is a Saudi equivalent to the song 'Anything goes'.

[up-country_sinclair]

This type of news story will prompt Islamophobes to make derogatory comments about Islam, KSA, Muslims, etc..., but IMO this is undoubtedly a step in the right direction for the all of the people (men and women) who live in KSA. Here's hoping the King stays on this path...and other nations follow.

Edited September 29, 2011 by up-country_sinclair

[chuckd]

This type of news story will prompt Islamophobes to make derogatory comments about Islam, KSA, Muslims, etc..., but IMO this is undoubtedly a step in the right direction for the all of the people (men and women) who live in KSA. Here's hoping the King stays on this path...and other nations follow.

Strangely enough, you got this one right.

I anticipated the King to pardon the sentence in the first place and he didn't disappoint me. I spent nearly 30 years working there and, in spite of the main stream media's and Barbara Walter's opinion, the women in Saudi are generally very well treated.

Sure, they can't drive or go out without a family member present and they have to wear those abayas (burqas to some), but you go to any shopping center, of which there are many, and you will see it full of women shopping and seemingly enjoying themselves. They are schooled up to and including college and medical schools. Most of them have very comfortable lives.

My wife lived there with me three years and she would go back tomorrow. She loved the shopping, golf trips, Safeway stores and the company provided transportation and housing. She wore the Abaya, sans head covering, and had no problem with any of it.

King Abdullah is doing a good job and here's hoping he lives many more years.

To be honest, the Saudi women are held in more respect than the women in Thailand or the US.

[mpoppel]

Funny how the sentencing is on all front pages but nowhere to be seen when the King overturns it.

[Steely Dan]

I think you need a far greater capacity for cultural relativism than I possess to be too impressed. As amnesty international commented.

"Flogging is a cruel punishment in all circumstances but it beggars belief that the authorities in Saudi Arabia have imposed lashes on a woman apparently for merely driving a car," Amnesty International said on Tuesday.

A reminder as if it were needed that the mere act of trying to drive a car resulted in the original sentence. If Saudi women were content with affairs then I don't suppose they would have started driving in defiance of the law, indeed I have read that those Saudi women who do work routinely have to give a large proportion of their pay to taxi drivers. I will of course applaud when women are indeed allowed to drive by law.

As an aside I still believe the legislature of Saudi Arabia are mentally ill. I have a wealth of examples to back that claim up but I would no doubt be labelled Islamophobic for citing them, even if they are documented as fact, besides which that would probably lead off topic.

I will therefore limit myself to one example. The Saudis recently beheaded a Sudanese man for sorcery.

Saudi Arabia beheaded a Sudanese man by sword in the western city of Medina on Monday after he was convicted of practicing sorcery, the Interior Ministry announced.

To read more: http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArchiveDetails.aspx?ID=313122#ixzz1ZLwuLd3E

Only 25% of a given NOW Lebanon article can be republished. For information on republishing rights from NOW Lebanon: http://www.nowlebanon.com/Sub.aspx?ID=125478

[SAffer]

This type of news story will prompt Islamophobes to make derogatory comments about Islam, KSA, Muslims, etc..., but IMO this is undoubtedly a step in the right direction for the all of the people (men and women) who live in KSA. Here's hoping the King stays on this path...and other nations follow.

Strangely enough, you got this one right.

I anticipated the King to pardon the sentence in the first place and he didn't disappoint me. I spent nearly 30 years working there and, in spite of the main stream media's and Barbara Walter's opinion, the women in Saudi are generally very well treated.

Sure, they can't drive or go out without a family member present and they have to wear those abayas (burqas to some), but you go to any shopping center, of which there are many, and you will see it full of women shopping and seemingly enjoying themselves. They are schooled up to and including college and medical schools. Most of them have very comfortable lives.

My wife lived there with me three years and she would go back tomorrow. She loved the shopping, golf trips, Safeway stores and the company provided transportation and housing. She wore the Abaya, sans head covering, and had no problem with any of it.

King Abdullah is doing a good job and here's hoping he lives many more years.

To be honest, the Saudi women are held in more respect than the women in Thailand or the US.

I have never been to Saudi, but I have been to other Arab/Middle Eastern countries, and I do agree with your sentiments. Actually, I noticed the same thing that you describe in your post, but I also noticed that the respect for Western women was almost none at all.

[JemJem]

Saudi Arabian regime is a disgrace when it comes to women's rights !

And, shame on the US and other Western governments who see it as an ally and almost never criticise the regime !

Yes, of course, I know....oil, oil, oil.

Jem

Edited September 30, 2011 by JemJem

[chuckd]

Saudi Arabian regime is a disgrace when it comes to women's rights !

And, shame on the US and other Western governments who see it as an ally and almost never criticise the regime !

Yes, of course, I know....oil, oil, oil.

Jem

And you have spent time there?

[JemJem]

Saudi Arabian regime is a disgrace when it comes to women's rights !

And, shame on the US and other Western governments who see it as an ally and almost never criticise the regime !

Yes, of course, I know....oil, oil, oil.

Jem

And you have spent time there?

No. Dude, one doesn't have to spend time in a country, in order to have a clear idea about certain things there.

I am NOT speaking out againt Muslims (on the contrary, when some bigots in the forum generalise and make anti-Muslim comments, I write against them) ; but, don't you agree that Saudi Arabia is an oppressive, Islamo-fascist state ?! Let me ask some questions : Are churches allowed there ? Can a Saudi openly state there that he/she is an atheist ? Is there a Socialist Party there ? What happens if an unmarried Saudi couple kiss (even in an 'innocent manner') eg. at a park and be seen by police ? I think we both know the answers to these questions.

Jem

[chuckd]

Saudi Arabian regime is a disgrace when it comes to women's rights !

And, shame on the US and other Western governments who see it as an ally and almost never criticise the regime !

Yes, of course, I know....oil, oil, oil.

Jem

And you have spent time there?

No. Dude, one doesn't have to spend time in a country, in order to have a clear idea about certain things there.

I am NOT speaking out againt Muslims (on the contrary, when some bigots in the forum generalise and make anti-Muslim comments, I write against them) ; but, don't you agree that Saudi Arabia is an oppressive, Islamo-fascist state ?! Let me ask some questions : Are churches allowed there ? Can a Saudi openly state there that he/she is an atheist ? Is there a Socialist Party there ? What happens if an unmarried Saudi couple kiss (even in an 'innocent manner') eg. at a park and be seen by police ? I think we both know the answers to these questions.

Jem

Not having ever spent one minute of your lifetime in a country, you are ready, willing and feel capable of denouncing an entire nation based on something you pick up from some unknown source? You claim you are NOT speaking out against Muslims, yet you willingly speak out against their religious customs and practices.

And, no, I don't agree that the Saudi Arabia I know from personal experience is an "Islamo-fascist state", as you so delicately put it.

Perhaps the Saudi Arabia you know from your vast experience is one, but it isn't the one I lived in for nearly half my life.

You claim to dislike bigots and in that I agree with you. The worst types of bigots, however, are those that know nothing about what they speak.

[JemJem]

Saudi Arabian regime is a disgrace when it comes to women's rights !

And, shame on the US and other Western governments who see it as an ally and almost never criticise the regime !

Yes, of course, I know....oil, oil, oil.

Jem

And you have spent time there?

No. Dude, one doesn't have to spend time in a country, in order to have a clear idea about certain things there.

I am NOT speaking out againt Muslims (on the contrary, when some bigots in the forum generalise and make anti-Muslim comments, I write against them) ; but, don't you agree that Saudi Arabia is an oppressive, Islamo-fascist state ?! Let me ask some questions : Are churches allowed there ? Can a Saudi openly state there that he/she is an atheist ? Is there a Socialist Party there ? What happens if an unmarried Saudi couple kiss (even in an 'innocent manner') eg. at a park and be seen by police ? I think we both know the answers to these questions.

Jem

Not having ever spent one minute of your lifetime in a country, you are ready, willing and feel capable of denouncing an entire nation based on something you pick up from some unknown source? You claim you are NOT speaking out against Muslims, yet you willingly speak out against their religious customs and practices.

And, no, I don't agree that the Saudi Arabia I know from personal experience is an "Islamo-fascist state", as you so delicately put it.

Perhaps the Saudi Arabia you know from your vast experience is one, but it isn't the one I lived in for nearly half my life.

You claim to dislike bigots and in that I agree with you. The worst types of bigots, however, are those that know nothing about what they speak.

So, what are the answers to the questions that I had asked in my earlier post ?

I am not denouncing an entire nation...I am denouncing the regime.

Ok.....never mind my term 'Islamo-fascist' (which I still insist is the right term for the S.Arabian regime) but let's use the term 'repressive'...don't you agree that a regime is repressive when they insist all its female citizens adhere strictly to a certain dress code ?!

Jem

[Steely Dan]

So, what are the answers to the questions that I had asked in my earlier post ?

I am not denouncing an entire nation...I am denouncing the regime.

Ok.....never mind my term 'Islamo-fascist' (which I still insist is the right term for the S.Arabian regime) but let's use the term 'repressive'...don't you agree that a regime is repressive when they insist all its female citizens adhere strictly to a certain dress code ?!

Jem

There are a few more questions which need answering, a binary Yes or no answer would suffice. Are you allowed to take bibles or crucifixes into Saudi Arabia? Are non-Muslims allowed to even enter Mecca or Medina? (It is ironic when Israel is labelled by some as an apartheid state when Jerusalem is open to all religions). I'm sure ChuckD must have gained some insights into the Saudi people from living there, but that does not mean others can't comment based on their own research. Indeed just to pick up the point about women being 'respected' in Saudi culture I would point to the plight of Indonesian and Nepalese domestic workers who are exposed to terrible levels of violence and sexual abuse. Again I will limit myself to one link but if you use google you will find countless cases of human rights of 'guest' workers being systematically abused, and they make up 33% of the population in the Saudi utopia.

Jakarta is demanding that Riyadh agree through a memorandum of understanding to protect Indonesian workers in the kingdom from abuse by Saudi employers. Until such memorandum is signed, the ban will stay.

Nearly one million Indonesians work in Saudi Arabia, mostly as housemaids.

Read more: http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/90052365?Indonesia%20to%20stop%20sending%20workers%20to%20Saudi%20Arabia%20after%20maid%26%23146%3Bs%20beheading#ixzz1ZaHawxIy

[Credo]

I've been Saudi Arabia. I have no desire to live there. Glad the regime is loosening up some of it's restrictions, but how I or anyone else views the situation in SA is of little significance. It's up to the people of SA to decide what they want and don't want.

The treatment of women is more rooted in culture than anything else and cultural changes are best handled in an orderly manner.

I'll refrain from quoting my father about women drivers. They probably don't have the problem of Sunday drivers either, or car salesmen who assure you the car was used by a little old lady who only used it to drive to Church.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Credo

[Steely Dan]

Chuckd, I don't want to labor the point, but here is another example, again from a mainstream news source. The abuse of migrant workers in KSA is horrific and just because you didn't come across it does not mean it didn't happen. Perhaps the situation is very different for migrant workers from the west who live in their protected enclaves to prevent them clashing with the cultural norms of the place. I would be genuinely interested to hear your views.

Last week, a domestic worker who returned to central Sri Lanka from Jordan reported being forced to swallow at least six nails. Over the weekend, another woman who returned from Kuwait had 14 nails removed from her body at a hospital in the central Sri Lankan town of Kurunegala. These cases follow close on the heels of yet another gruesome story: in August, 50-year-old Lahanda Purage Ariyawathie, a grandmother of two, returned to Sri Lanka from Saudi Arabia five months after accepting a job as a maid. Her body was dotted with small, oozing wounds. Doctors later removed over 20 nails and needles that had been embedded in her body. Ariyawathie said that hot nails were embedded in her body by her Saudi employers who were dissatisfied with her work. Saudi authorities have rejected the claim.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2031351,00.html#ixzz1ZaMIPSXD

[Scott]

We may be straying off-topic a little. The treatment of domestic workers is not particularly relevant to this thread. I don't know that the gov't sanctions the mistreatment of guest workers.

[Naam]

Not having ever spent one minute of your lifetime in a country, you are ready, willing and feel capable of denouncing an entire nation based on something you pick up from some unknown source? You claim you are NOT speaking out against Muslims, yet you willingly speak out against their religious customs and practices.

And, no, I don't agree that the Saudi Arabia I know from personal experience is an "Islamo-fascist state", as you so delicately put it.

Perhaps the Saudi Arabia you know from your vast experience is one, but it isn't the one I lived in for nearly half my life.

You claim to dislike bigots and in that I agree with you. The worst types of bigots, however, are those that know nothing about what they speak.

today i bow my head with respect to you Chuck! moreover i claim that the "googling experts", who most probably never set a foot on Saudi soil, possess a wealth of "no idea" about the country and its inhabitants no matter how much time they waste with googling.

i agree that disgusting incidences have happened and are still happening in Saudi Arabia... as much or as less as in any other country.

that King Abdullah overturned the court sentence was as clear as "two plus two equals four". the court lashed out at him for mentioning publicly a couple of years ago "sooner or later Saudi women will drive on Saudi roads".

[Naam]

but if you use google you will find countless cases of human rights of 'guest' workers being systematically abused, and they make up 33% of the population in the Saudi utopia

what about googling with the keywords "catholic church sexual abuse minors"? 13,200,000 results!

[Steely Dan]

Not having ever spent one minute of your lifetime in a country, you are ready, willing and feel capable of denouncing an entire nation based on something you pick up from some unknown source? You claim you are NOT speaking out against Muslims, yet you willingly speak out against their religious customs and practices.

And, no, I don't agree that the Saudi Arabia I know from personal experience is an "Islamo-fascist state", as you so delicately put it.

Perhaps the Saudi Arabia you know from your vast experience is one, but it isn't the one I lived in for nearly half my life.

You claim to dislike bigots and in that I agree with you. The worst types of bigots, however, are those that know nothing about what they speak.

today i bow my head with respect to you Chuck! moreover i claim that the "googling experts", who most probably never set a foot on Saudi soil, possess a wealth of "no idea" about the country and its inhabitants no matter how much time they waste with googling.

i agree that disgusting incidences have happened and are still happening in Saudi Arabia... as much or as less as in any other country.

that King Abdullah overturned the court sentence was as clear as "two plus two equals four". the court lashed out at him for mentioning publicly a couple of years ago "sooner or later Saudi women will drive on Saudi roads".

At least the googling experts in the main have mainstream corroborated sources to go on here unlike the tinfoil hat sources used routinely to clobber the U.S or Israel. As for the stock equivalence answer you give concerning abuses occurring everywhere I suggest you look at Freedom house's ranking for both press freedom and respect of human rights and you will get a feel for the relative severity of abuse by Country.

P.S As for visiting KSA, sorry, never had the pleasure as my Surname would not permit. :jap:

[JimmyTheMook]

To be honest, the Saudi women are held in more respect than the women in Thailand or the US.

Of course they are , just look at how freely they can express their femininity and individual styles and tastes.

[plumeria]

Saudi Arabian regime is a disgrace when it comes to women's rights !

And, shame on the US and other Western governments who see it as an ally and almost never criticise the regime !

Yes, of course, I know....oil, oil, oil.

Jem

And you have spent time there?

No. Dude, one doesn't have to spend time in a country, in order to have a clear idea about certain things there.

I am NOT speaking out againt Muslims (on the contrary, when some bigots in the forum generalise and make anti-Muslim comments, I write against them) ; but, don't you agree that Saudi Arabia is an oppressive, Islamo-fascist state ?! Let me ask some questions : Are churches allowed there ? Can a Saudi openly state there that he/she is an atheist ? Is there a Socialist Party there ? What happens if an unmarried Saudi couple kiss (even in an 'innocent manner') eg. at a park and be seen by police ? I think we both know the answers to these questions.

Jem

Not having ever spent one minute of your lifetime in a country, you are ready, willing and feel capable of denouncing an entire nation based on something you pick up from some unknown source? You claim you are NOT speaking out against Muslims, yet you willingly speak out against their religious customs and practices.

And, no, I don't agree that the Saudi Arabia I know from personal experience is an "Islamo-fascist state", as you so delicately put it.

Perhaps the Saudi Arabia you know from your vast experience is one, but it isn't the one I lived in for nearly half my life.

You claim to dislike bigots and in that I agree with you. The worst types of bigots, however, are those that know nothing about what they speak.

Way too sensitive on this topic I think. Jem is talking about the regime controlling the country, not the country and it's people. Didn't sound the least bit bigoted.

And if we have to learn everything by experience and firsthand then lets close down the world's schools.

[geriatrickid]

but if you use google you will find countless cases of human rights of 'guest' workers being systematically abused, and they make up 33% of the population in the Saudi utopia

what about googling with the keywords "catholic church sexual abuse minors"? 13,200,000 results!

That sir is because there is an avenue to express those complaints. One will never read or hear about such activities in Saudi Arabia because of the heavy censorship. Women have limited outlets to express their frustrations and views in most Middle Eastern countries. The fact that the sentence of lashing was rendered in the first place speaks volumes. I respect a country's rights to impose its own "moral code", but there is indeed a double standard in Saudi Arabia when it comes to the treatment of women and non muslim religions. No doubt some westerners that have had the benefit of living in their secured employer provided compounds have a different view. However, outside the walls and barbed wire there is a completely different lifestyle and set of rules. I had no commented until now as I believe that the Saudi's have the right to run the country as they see fit. However, I am allowed to express my consternation and concern when sentences involving lashing or the death penalty are meted out for non violent offenses. Prehaps the King was compassionate or perhaps he understood the bad PR it would create if the sentence was allowed to stand. In this matter, I will leave it to the galloping lefties and womens activists to take up the fight, if they can find time to stop attacking the west.

[Naam]

P.S As for visiting KSA, sorry, never had the pleasure as my Surname would not permit. :jap:

that goes without saying but exceptions prove the rule. it's not rocket science to guess your surname after reading a couple of your postings

but whatever, those who haven't lived for a prolonged period of time in Saudi Arabia including having Saudi friends and access to their families are outsiders who should not render a judgment based on media reports or google.

i can confirm what ChuckD mentioned about his wife, although my wife would rather prefer to live in her favourite city on the Saudi west coast whereas Chuck and his family seems to have lived on the east cost.

[chuckd]

This type of news story will prompt Islamophobes to make derogatory comments about Islam, KSA, Muslims, etc..., but IMO this is undoubtedly a step in the right direction for the all of the people (men and women) who live in KSA. Here's hoping the King stays on this path...and other nations follow.

Strangely enough, you got this one right.

I anticipated the King to pardon the sentence in the first place and he didn't disappoint me. I spent nearly 30 years working there and, in spite of the main stream media's and Barbara Walter's opinion, the women in Saudi are generally very well treated.

Sure, they can't drive or go out without a family member present and they have to wear those abayas (burqas to some), but you go to any shopping center, of which there are many, and you will see it full of women shopping and seemingly enjoying themselves. They are schooled up to and including college and medical schools. Most of them have very comfortable lives.

My wife lived there with me three years and she would go back tomorrow. She loved the shopping, golf trips, Safeway stores and the company provided transportation and housing. She wore the Abaya, sans head covering, and had no problem with any of it.

King Abdullah is doing a good job and here's hoping he lives many more years.

To be honest, the Saudi women are held in more respect than the women in Thailand or the US.

I am very well treating my dog to. Sure he can not walk alone and he has to wear a dog collar, unfortunately it does not cover it's whole body. But he can go out alone in the garden and you will see it is filled with happy cats and lucky mice and a lot of funny birds. He was also trained in dog school with other peers. My wife enjoys the garden to but she refuses to wear a dog collar because she has a problem with that.

Freedom and respect,

for women is not to be found in muslim communities.

How hard you try to convince ... .

Not to mention your quote: "the Saudi women are treated better than the Thai or US, may be you'd better return to your dream muslim world and never leave it anymore. Get your wife some freedom., what a joy

Am I supposed to give you an award for treating your dog nicely. I kick mine.

I never said "the Saudi women are treated better than the Thai or US".

If you are going to quote me, please quote me accurately.

Naam:

I was also in Riyadh for a few years, 7 years at a small city north of Jeddah and one year on the Jordanian border area. These people just don't know very much. It is something you need to experience to understand. They won't learn much from CNN or BBC.

Now I will let them rant as they wish and hope somebody quotes me accurately.

[jeanelie]

This type of news story will prompt Islamophobes to make derogatory comments about Islam, KSA, Muslims, etc..., but IMO this is undoubtedly a step in the right direction for the all of the people (men and women) who live in KSA. Here's hoping the King stays on this path...and other nations follow.

Strangely enough, you got this one right.

I anticipated the King to pardon the sentence in the first place and he didn't disappoint me. I spent nearly 30 years working there and, in spite of the main stream media's and Barbara Walter's opinion, the women in Saudi are generally very well treated.

Sure, they can't drive or go out without a family member present and they have to wear those abayas (burqas to some), but you go to any shopping center, of which there are many, and you will see it full of women shopping and seemingly enjoying themselves. They are schooled up to and including college and medical schools. Most of them have very comfortable lives.

My wife lived there with me three years and she would go back tomorrow. She loved the shopping, golf trips, Safeway stores and the company provided transportation and housing. She wore the Abaya, sans head covering, and had no problem with any of it.

King Abdullah is doing a good job and here's hoping he lives many more years.

To be honest, the Saudi women are held in more respect than the women in Thailand or the US.

I am very well treating my dog to. Sure he can not walk alone and he has to wear a dog collar, unfortunately it does not cover it's whole body. But he can go out alone in the garden and you will see it is filled with happy cats and lucky mice and a lot of funny birds. He was also trained in dog school with other peers. My wife enjoys the garden to but she refuses to wear a dog collar because she has a problem with that.

Freedom and respect,

for women is not to be found in muslim communities.

How hard you try to convince ... .

Not to mention your quote: "the Saudi women are treated better than the Thai or US, may be you'd better return to your dream muslim world and never leave it anymore. Get your wife some freedom., what a joy

Am I supposed to give you an award for treating your dog nicely. I kick mine.

I never said "the Saudi women are treated better than the Thai or US".

If you are going to quote me, please quote me accurately.

Naam:

I was also in Riyadh for a few years, 7 years at a small city north of Jeddah and one year on the Jordanian border area. These people just don't know very much. It is something you need to experience to understand. They won't learn much from CNN or BBC.

Now I will let them rant as they wish and hope somebody quotes me accurately.

I hope i am not ready for a "fatwa" for being not so accurate. For your information I have been living for several years myself in a muslim country and do absolutely not desire to find any of that crazieness in my actual and future ever living environment. Nevertheless I still wish your wife a good and happy, free and respectfull life in Saudie Arabia if she is in for that. Choose wisely.

[JemJem]

Some of the posters here might be denouncing the Saudi regime from a Jewish/Christian neo-con point. For me, I am denouncing it from an internationalist, social democrat, anti-fascist point. I have never been a fan of any organised religion by the way....and I am agnostic, quite close to atheism. I have several Muslim friends. Believe me, most of them have not-so-nice words for the Wahabi version of Islam, which is the dominant one in Saudi Arabia.

Most of the 9-11 attackers were Saudis. I have no idea what sort of stuff they teach school children over there but I think I can guess.

Some posters here have written things like 'It is up to the Saudis what sort of regime/rules they want'. Well, legally speaking, yes, that is true but then what is the point of principles....what is the point of human rights...what is the point of freedom of choice ? Don't tell me that all (or the heavy majority) Saudi women willingly wear the full Islamic dress all the time outside. They do so because they have to, by law. Even if the anti-burqa women represent a tiny minority of women there (which I doubt....because I don't think it would be a tiny minority), their rights/freedom of choice must be respected.

No...no sympathy at all from me for the Saudi regime....and, I would never set a foot in that country, under such a regime.

Jem

[chuckd]

Some of the posters here might be denouncing the Saudi regime from a Jewish/Christian neo-con point. For me, I am denouncing it from an internationalist, social democrat, anti-fascist point. I have never been a fan of any organised religion by the way....and I am agnostic, quite close to atheism. I have several Muslim friends. Believe me, most of them have not-so-nice words for the Wahabi version of Islam, which is the dominant one in Saudi Arabia.

Most of the 9-11 attackers were Saudis. I have no idea what sort of stuff they teach school children over there but I think I can guess.

Some posters here have written things like 'It is up to the Saudis what sort of regime/rules they want'. Well, legally speaking, yes, that is true but then what is the point of principles....what is the point of human rights...what is the point of freedom of choice ? Don't tell me that all (or the heavy majority) Saudi women willingly wear the full Islamic dress all the time outside. They do so because they have to, by law. Even if the anti-burqa women represent a tiny minority of women there (which I doubt....because I don't think it would be a tiny minority), their rights/freedom of choice must be respected.

No...no sympathy at all from me for the Saudi regime....and, I would never set a foot in that country, under such a regime.

Jem

You said..."I have no idea what sort of stuff they teach school children over there but I think I can guess."

Your lack of knowledge about Saudi Arabia extends well beyond what they might or might not be teaching in the schools there. Keep guessing.

I am sure the Saudi authorities will not sleep well tonight knowing you will never set foot there.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts which are meant to bait other posters have been removed.

Please stick to the topic of the OP.

[Steely Dan]

Some of the posters here might be denouncing the Saudi regime from a Jewish/Christian neo-con point. For me, I am denouncing it from an internationalist, social democrat, anti-fascist point. I have never been a fan of any organised religion by the way....and I am agnostic, quite close to atheism. I have several Muslim friends. Believe me, most of them have not-so-nice words for the Wahabi version of Islam, which is the dominant one in Saudi Arabia.

Most of the 9-11 attackers were Saudis. I have no idea what sort of stuff they teach school children over there but I think I can guess.

Some posters here have written things like 'It is up to the Saudis what sort of regime/rules they want'. Well, legally speaking, yes, that is true but then what is the point of principles....what is the point of human rights...what is the point of freedom of choice ? Don't tell me that all (or the heavy majority) Saudi women willingly wear the full Islamic dress all the time outside. They do so because they have to, by law. Even if the anti-burqa women represent a tiny minority of women there (which I doubt....because I don't think it would be a tiny minority), their rights/freedom of choice must be respected.

No...no sympathy at all from me for the Saudi regime....and, I would never set a foot in that country, under such a regime.

Jem

You said..."I have no idea what sort of stuff they teach school children over there but I think I can guess."

Your lack of knowledge about Saudi Arabia extends well beyond what they might or might not be teaching in the schools there. Keep guessing.

I am sure the Saudi authorities will not sleep well tonight knowing you will never set foot there.

What indeed do they teach in their schools, or indeed the ones they fund overseas?

A madrassa is an Islamic religious school. Many of the Taliban were educated in Saudi-financed madrassas in Pakistan that teach Wahhabism, a particularly austere and rigid form of Islam which is rooted in Saudi Arabia. Around the world, Saudi wealth and charities contributed to an explosive growth of madrassas during the Afghan jihad against the Soviets. During that war (1979-1989), a new kind of madrassa emerged in the Pakistan-Afghanistan region -- not so much concerned about scholarship as making war on infidels.

Read more: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/saudi/analyses/madrassas.html#ixzz1Zg1LNnFK

P.S Chuckd, You are in my view using the prior experience card in a rather condescending way and apparently don't see fit to comment on any of the points that JemJem or I have brought up. Does that mean you are denying the points we made or not? I would observe that the prior experience argument could be used for just about every thread here and certainly with respect to Israel where we have so many self appointed experts on their human rights record.

[chuckd]

Strangely enough, you got this one right.

I anticipated the King to pardon the sentence in the first place and he didn't disappoint me. I spent nearly 30 years working there and, in spite of the main stream media's and Barbara Walter's opinion, the women in Saudi are generally very well treated.

Sure, they can't drive or go out without a family member present and they have to wear those abayas (burqas to some), but you go to any shopping center, of which there are many, and you will see it full of women shopping and seemingly enjoying themselves. They are schooled up to and including college and medical schools. Most of them have very comfortable lives.

My wife lived there with me three years and she would go back tomorrow. She loved the shopping, golf trips, Safeway stores and the company provided transportation and housing. She wore the Abaya, sans head covering, and had no problem with any of it.

King Abdullah is doing a good job and here's hoping he lives many more years.

To be honest, the Saudi women are held in more respect than the women in Thailand or the US.

JemJem/SteelyDan:

This is my original post on Saudi Arabia. I stand behind what I said based on knowledge from personal experience.

Now my post has morphed into what the Saudi Schools teach in their curriculum. I know they teach lots of religion but what they teach beside that is unknown to me. I had no children in Saudi schools nor did I personally visit them. Therefore I choose not to answer the questions since my answers would not be based on personal experience. One of you knows how many Saudis were involved with 9/11. Good for you. That proves you can read but it serves to prove very little else.

One of you is Jewish and the other is a self confessed agnostic/atheist. You both have an agenda which doesn't happen to reconcile to mine so it makes any answer I provide simply more fuel for your fire.

I choose not to go there. If you don't like it, let me know and I will cry myself to sleep tonight.

You want answers to your questions, get on an airplane and go over there. Find out for yourselves as I did. If this response is condescending...too bad.