Living In Thailand Working Online For Overseas Work Permit?

[freefall16]

Hi

I am looking to live in Thailand with my wife. I am working on the ability to obtain an Non Immigrant O visa for this purpose.

I have the opportunity to work remotely under contract for a company back in Australia. If I were to do this, would I require a Work Permit?

Not wanting to duplicate the post in another section, who's tax regimen would I follow, Thai or Australian?

Thanks

[CharlieH]

Officially the answer is YES you need a work permit for any type of work paid or unpaid even volunteers require work permits.

[Cloggie]

In theory YES but if you work only remotely or you run a 'web shop' no as nobody can check that :-)

Stay home and do your work, receive you salary and enjoy life.

Cheers,

Cloggie

[Tatsujin]

In theory YES but if you work only remotely or you run a 'web shop' no as nobody can check that :-)

Stay home and do your work, receive you salary and enjoy life.

Cheers,

Cloggie

That's correct, right up to the point where a jealous competitor, pissed off client or reader of TV tips them off to you and you get fined, jailed and deported.

Your choice.

[Cloggie]

If you work remotely in England / Germany / Australia etc and do do NOT deal with Thai people, no need for a work permit as you do NOT work here but there...

Cheers,

Cloggie

[lopburi3]

If you do this while in Thailand you are working in Thailand and require a work permit.

[Tatsujin]

@Cloggie - but the OP was talking about working IN Thailand . . . it doesn't matter where the clients are. If the OP is working in Thailand that is where he would need the WP and pay taxes etc, regardless of whether the clients are overseas or not.

Of course, as many here do, people ignore this and work 'remotely' and fly 'under the radar', but I think you will find that the Thai's are wise to this now and are cracking down on it.

[IMA_FARANG]

Someone else posted a similar question.

Frankly, the Labor law in Thailand is just NOT CLEAR on working remotely over the internet.

The law regarding that seems to be old and outdated, such a situation just wasn't concieved when the law was drafted...pre-internet.

Certainly the Thai tax people will claim that you did the actual work here on your computer in Thailand. For that reason you MUST have a Work Permit and are required to pay Thai income tax.

And, you will claim that the actual PRODUCT of your work was produced in Australia...not Thailand...on which income you already pay Aussie tax.

Exactly how that will reaolve itself, I simply don't know. I'm sure, however, it will be a major point of arguement.

I would say almost certainly you will need a work permit, at least to be working legally.

Working remotely over the internet by a foriegner and yet living legally in Thailand is a topic the Thai government needs to make clear.

There are many high-income professional people who earn their living on the internet, and would like to live here in Thailand while doing so.

Not to provide a clear law for that situation is silly mistake for Thailand...if not only for the tax revenue the government could earn from such people.

Maybe somtime, Thailand will see that.

Edited October 3, 2011 by IMA_FARANG

[Tatsujin]

Frankly, the Labor law in Thailand is just NOT CLEAR on working remotely over the internet.

No, it's very clear. You are working within Thailand and therefore you must have a Work Permit and pay taxes (unless the country you are from has some tax exemption agreement with Thailand such as those from USA and you can prove taxes have already been paid on income as an example).

I do agree this needs clarifying and making easier for those of us who do live and work here, but I just don't see the Thai's doing so. If they clarified things, then it doesn't give them any 'wriggle room' to get out of things at all and interpret things differently. It also cuts out the possibility of them gaining any extra 'tea' money which is the reason why things are do difficult and vague.

[Cloggie]

@Tatsujin - If I do SEO for a Brazilian company who pay me offshore, why do I need a work permit for that?

If I do SEO for a Thai company yes I need a work permit as I do a job that a Thai (maybe ) also can do - that's why we have work permits, to control who can work and not!

I agree with everybody that you work so you need a work permit but how it that related to Internet?

I can work in a hotel room on Koh Samui, in a guesthouse in Manilla or in a Internet cafe in New York, does this that I need three work permits, pay tax in three countries etc etc?

In theory maybe yes but how do you want to make this work?

Cloggie

[Tatsujin]

@Tatsujin - If I do SEO for a Brazilian company who pay me offshore, why do I need a work permit for that?

Not my rules, it's just the law here in Thailand. If you "work" in Thailand, wherever your client is, however you get paid, you need a Work Permit. Simple as that.

You can't even do unpaid volunteer or charity work here without a Work Permit. Painting your house is against the law, it's "work". Repairing the sink in your bathroom is against the law, it's "work". Answering an email related to business is against the law, it's "work".

I quote:

The official definition of “work” in Thailand is "to engage in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits" (Source: Thai Ministry of Labour). Punishments for those defying the law include fines, imprisonment, deportation and possible blacklisting thus preventing return to Thailand.

Go figure.

[Cloggie]

I agree

[Tatsujin]

As I stated before, the vast majority of foreigners here who work 'remotely' never bother with a WP or paying taxes and 'fly under the radar'. That's their choice. Just be aware of what the actual law/rules is/are and then make your own mind up how you want to do things. I just know that all it takes is one phone call as I mentioned before and you can be in a world of hurt lol

[Cloggie]

It is correct what you say, just keep your head under the radar and keep your mouth shut.

[Tatsujin]

It is correct what you say, just keep your head under the radar and keep your mouth shut.

Well, I personally wouldn't recommend that to be honest . . . too easy to get 'fingered' by someone who doesn't like you or is a competitor or a client in Thailand who doesn't want to pay for example.

Also, based on what I'm seeing regarding renewals of visa's etc, they are cracking down on this once again, so you better have a good 'reason' for being here, and multiple Tourist visa's just won't cut it for much longer.

[maccaroni man]

this reminds me of a guy who calls the IRS and ask if he is being watched. if a person is working on line and being paid off shore others can point the finger all the want but can they prove anything i.e. pay slips, customer orders etc..... dont worry make money and be happy.

[freefall16]

Thanks for the responses.

I am somewhat risk adverse and knowing how fickle my wife's relatives are I will most likely get a work permit. I understand that if you are a consultant, working for yourself, this is a relatively simple process (fingers crossed).

[Tatsujin]

this reminds me of a guy who calls the IRS and ask if he is being watched. if a person is working on line and being paid off shore others can point the finger all the want but can they prove anything i.e. pay slips, customer orders etc..... dont worry make money and be happy.

That's fine . . . but the suspicion of it would be enough to get you looked into by the Thai authorities if they wished to do so, and once brought to their attention good luck in explaining where all your money is coming from and why you need to keep renewing that Tourist visa endlessly.

[Soutpeel]

Thanks for the responses.

I am somewhat risk adverse and knowing how fickle my wife's relatives are I will most likely get a work permit. I understand that if you are a consultant, working for yourself, this is a relatively simple process (fingers crossed).

There is no provision as such for a WP for "working for yourself" in Thailand, there are rumours about about a "new WP" type for freelance, but nothing definitivite has come to light as yet and as such its all speculation at the moment.

Working from Thailand with no customers/invoicing in Thailand it is very easy to become legal and get a WP.....set up a representative office here, but you will need to bring in THB 5.0 million (2 million in year 1, and 1 million a year for 3 years)

[maccaroni man]

this reminds me of a guy who calls the IRS and ask if he is being watched. if a person is working on line and being paid off shore others can point the finger all the want but can they prove anything i.e. pay slips, customer orders etc..... dont worry make money and be happy.

That's fine . . . but the suspicion of it would be enough to get you looked into by the Thai authorities if they wished to do so, and once brought to their attention good luck in explaining where all your money is coming from and why you need to keep renewing that Tourist visa endlessly.

OP said he could get an "O" visa. IMO people who think any govt agency Thai, American or British have the ability or will power to research such minor matters beyound asking questions is giving government workers too much credit, they are lazy at best.

[4evermaat]

Thanks for the responses.

I am somewhat risk adverse and knowing how fickle my wife's relatives are I will most likely get a work permit. I understand that if you are a consultant, working for yourself, this is a relatively simple process (fingers crossed).

Quite a bit of fear mongering on this thread. I know of several expats doing their freelance work and they have no problems. You do your work, you get paid, you go to ATM and withdraw what you need. If I do get involved in working with locals, I would have thai wife/gf/friend along with me.

Once your significant other is aware that part of that income is theirs or benefits them, they usually do their best to make the venture is successful . The non-imm visa already puts you is a better position anyway to work.

[jonnog]

I agree about the fear mongering comment. Yes, officially - legally - you need a WP. However, what makes this whole thing less clear is the apparent ambivalent attitude towards it. For instance, I have witnessed immigration officials in Chaeng Wattana turn a blind eye and seem totally not interested when it seemed apparent that such freelance work for overseas companies is being undertaken by foreigners in Thailand.

[lopburi3]

And work is not the responsibility of the immigration department. And what is ambivalent one day can become very hot the next (recent Bangkok gambling dens an example).

[Tatsujin]

It's not fearmongering, it's making clear what the actual 'rules' or 'law' actually is/are and not just what people want it to be or think it to be.

If you want to work illegally here, go right ahead, it makes no difference to me, as long as you understand what the law actually is and the risks and are aware of them. As said before, is it likely that you'll be caught working illegally? . . . not really . . . but it does and has happened.

And when it comes to visa's, unless you are on a Non-something, they are cracking down on multiple tourist visas (again) and questioning now where your money is coming from and what you are doing here for so long if you are a "tourist".

As with everything, it's not often a problem or issue as they do mostly seem not to worry about this, but that changes overnight here as you'll know if you've been here a while. I'm guessing with the 'hints' of this 'freelance' visa that has been talked about, that they will now be checking into things a little more closely.

And for all you graphic design and website design freelancers that have websites that are easily found in a Google search, well all I can say is that you've been warned.

[Satcommlee]

Where do you draw the line?

Does every businessman in Thailand whether on Holiday or on a Business trip need a Work permit to answer a few business emails, or to take a phone call from a client.

Does an aspiring author require a work permit to write a book?

Does someone on a Retirement Visa need a work permit to Mow his lawn..

There seems to be no clear cut guidance on it anywhere..

[Tatsujin]

Yes, to all the above, they are all (as defined by Thai law) "work".

I'm not saying any of this is 'right', I'd love for it to change and for it to be easier for everyone to live and work here. But the law is the law and it's up to us to try to adhere to it and follow it as best we can. If someone chooses not to, that's up to them.

It annoys the hell out of me when I come across western 'freelancers' or 'remote workers' who claim they didn't know it was against the law to work in Thailand without a Work Permit. Do some research, the information is readily available, in English and completely unambigious.

But, just because everyone is doing something, doesn't make it 'right' . . . it just means they haven't been caught yet, or the Thai's haven't bothered cracking down on it yet.

[jonnog]

In my experience there is always a little envy from those with a WP. While they are (understandably) satisfied to be completely legal they are not happy seeing freelancers getting away with it. Hence the scare mongering.

Edited October 7, 2011 by jonnog

[lopburi3]

It is not scare mongering when they point out the law and what could happen - people need to be aware there could be serious repercussions for such actions as ignorance of the law is not an excuse here any more than in there home countries (but some people have the feeling anything goes when they depart there homeland). In perspective the odds may be low but if your life is dependent on living in Thailand it would behoove anyone to try to keep themselves legal. Illegals are not usually welcome in any country.

[Tatsujin]

The question was asked, and answered. Take it as you will and do whatever you choose with that information.

@Jonnog - envy doesn't come into this at all as far as I am concerned, not sure where you are getting that from. I would think it would be the opposite way around to be honest, where the people that have done things the 'right' way, that have no WP or Visa worries or concerns, and are not therefore worried or concerned with any possible crackdowns or purges in the future - these are the people that I would have thought would be 'envied' by those who are skirting the edges of legality.

If you are referring to 'envy' in terms of those with WP's not being able to 'compete' against those 'freelancers' who are not legal here, well I would simply answer that by saying that if those people with WP's were envious in any way, one phone call to Immigration or the Labor Department would put those without WP's into a world of hurt. The fact that that hasn't happened should tell you something.

[maccaroni man]

It is not scare mongering when they point out the law and what could happen - people need to be aware there could be serious repercussions for such actions as ignorance of the law is not an excuse here any more than in there home countries (but some people have the feeling anything goes when they depart there homeland). In perspective the odds may be low but if your life is dependent on living in Thailand it would behoove anyone to try to keep themselves legal. Illegals are not usually welcome in any country.

this is correct much like buying car insurance with high deductable i.e. being self insured compared to the person who has 100% coverage. IMO the odds are 99.9% in the op favor to never be bothered by anyone regarding his work abroad and being paid abroad while he sleeps in thailand.