Occupy As A Means To Financial Reform

[gregb]

A comparison of the left wing Occupy movement vs. the right wing tea party:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1687281/

The Tea Party is a revolt of the haves; Occupy Wall Street a revolt of the have-nots. Yet there are points of commonality between them. Both are angry about what they see as economic unfairness—the Tea Party over deviations from free-market principle, the Occupiers over excessive adherence to it. Both are hostile toward society’s elite, though they define that elite differently. Both are frustrated with the American political system.

so what is the solution?

Secession. The system as it stands is so broken it can not be repaired. It is simply a matter of time and wait for everyone to try everything else until they realize this is the only option. The US will eventually go the way of the Soviet Union. Many breakaway republics and a reorganization of a group of states as a smaller core country. It may not have worked during the Civil War, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing to do. The timing was just wrong.

[midas]

A comparison of the left wing Occupy movement vs. the right wing tea party:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1687281/

The Tea Party is a revolt of the haves; Occupy Wall Street a revolt of the have-nots. Yet there are points of commonality between them. Both are angry about what they see as economic unfairness—the Tea Party over deviations from free-market principle, the Occupiers over excessive adherence to it. Both are hostile toward society’s elite, though they define that elite differently. Both are frustrated with the American political system.

so what is the solution?

Secession. The system as it stands is so broken it can not be repaired. It is simply a matter of time and wait for everyone to try everything else until they realize this is the only option. The US will eventually go the way of the Soviet Union. Many breakaway republics and a reorganization of a group of states as a smaller core country. It may not have worked during the Civil War, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the right thing to do. The timing was just wrong.

it does make sense I have to say and people could have much more control on Public spending

and you could eliminate the terrible waste and duplication which now goes on on two levels.

[Jingthing]

Secession? OMG, tin foil hat time again. What percentage of the American public do you think wants to split up the UNITED states? It's not even on the radar.

What IS on the radar?

ECONOMIC INEQUALITY.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/opinion/sunday/kristof-americas-primal-scream.html

Three factoids underscore that inequality:

¶The 400 wealthiest Americans have a greater combined net worth than the bottom 150 million Americans.

¶The top 1 percent of Americans possess more wealth than the entire bottom 90 percent.

¶In the Bush expansion from 2002 to 2007, 65 percent of economic gains went to the richest 1 percent.

[gregb]

Secession? OMG, tin foil hat time again. What percentage of the American public do you think wants to split up the UNITED states? It's not even on the radar.

What IS on the radar?

ECONOMIC INEQUALITY.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/16/opinion/sunday/kristof-americas-primal-scream.html

Three factoids underscore that inequality:

¶The 400 wealthiest Americans have a greater combined net worth than the bottom 150 million Americans.

¶The top 1 percent of Americans possess more wealth than the entire bottom 90 percent.

¶In the Bush expansion from 2002 to 2007, 65 percent of economic gains went to the richest 1 percent.

Correct. It isn't on the radar yet. But it likely will be in a decade or two. We need radical movements like Occupy to start shaking the fabric of the existing structures. Historically when political systems break down they tend to do so rather quickly. I do not expect the USA to survive in its current form for much longer. We'll probably see radical change within our lifetimes. The Soviet Union was completely remade in about 10 years after it became untennable. If you could go back in time and tell the people their future I'm sure they would have thought you crazy.

You can call it tinfoil if you wish. But I would be surprised if history will agree with you.

[flying]

Correct. It isn't on the radar yet. But it likely will be in a decade or two. We need radical movements like Occupy to start shaking the fabric of the existing structures. Historically when political systems break down they tend to do so rather quickly. I do not expect the USA to survive in its current form for much longer. We'll probably see radical change within our lifetimes. The Soviet Union was completely remade in about 10 years after it became untennable. If you could go back in time and tell the people their future I'm sure they would have thought you crazy.

You can call it tinfoil if you wish. But I would be surprised if history will agree with you.

Actually it has been on the radar for a few years now.

Quite a few States have mentioned it but not as an outright secession.

Instead they have considered invoking the 10th amendment.

[waza]

Correct. It isn't on the radar yet. But it likely will be in a decade or two. We need radical movements like Occupy to start shaking the fabric of the existing structures. Historically when political systems break down they tend to do so rather quickly. I do not expect the USA to survive in its current form for much longer. We'll probably see radical change within our lifetimes. The Soviet Union was completely remade in about 10 years after it became untennable. If you could go back in time and tell the people their future I'm sure they would have thought you crazy.

You can call it tinfoil if you wish. But I would be surprised if history will agree with you.

Actually it has been on the radar for a few years now.

Quite a few States have mentioned it but not as an outright secession.

Instead they have considered invoking the 10th amendment.

“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Hmmm interesting, I dont see it myself the Commerce Clause may overide that. However, I think a limited breakup of the EU is on the cards, certainly the UK is thinking of leaving and I am sure a lot of member states want Greece out.

[JimGant]

Secession? OMG, tin foil hat time again. What percentage of the American public do you think wants to split up the UNITED states? It's not even on the radar.

Consider the source. Gregb also considers the airplane crashes of 9/11 to be a US Government conspiracy.

And Ron Paul's favorite guru in his mania against the Fed? Well, that's Edward Griffin, author of "The Creature From Jekyll Island." He too is a wacko, railing against the doctor/pharmacist conspiracy that prevented the cure for cancer.

This thread -- and its companion -- have become ramblings of 'he said, she said' links to mostly tabloid publications and blogs. But, I guess, the doom and gloom being expressed is not too surprising -- considering many here are expats, a community whose dissatisfaction level is higher than most.

Now, back to the subject of this thread. And a humorous, but truthful, observation of late:

"To the villainy-of-the-rich theme emanating from Washington, a child is born: Occupy Wall Street. Starbucks-sipping, Levi’s-clad, iPhone-clutching protesters denounce corporate America even as they weep for Steve Jobs, corporate titan, billionaire eight times over."

[Charles Krauthammer, WashPost 10/14/2011]

[flying]

If one steps back & stops looking for labels or only

interpreting what they *think* ( I use the term loosely for some here)

through the prism of the media....

Then they may start to see........

How about Occupy London? Right or Left??

Don't miss the forest for the trees.

TPTB that select for you two from which to choose thus giving you the illusion of choice own both.

[gregb]

Secession? OMG, tin foil hat time again. What percentage of the American public do you think wants to split up the UNITED states? It's not even on the radar.

Consider the source. Gregb also considers the airplane crashes of 9/11 to be a US Government conspiracy.

And Ron Paul's favorite guru in his mania against the Fed? Well, that's Edward Griffin, author of "The Creature From Jekyll Island." He too is a wacko, railing against the doctor/pharmacist conspiracy that prevented the cure for cancer.

You were doing just fine until you used the adverb "too". So you have effectively just called me a wacko. Reduced to name calling now, are we?

I base all of my analysis on the data as it appears. The fact that I have arrived at a different conclusion than you could be taken by you as an opportunity to reconsider the elements that have led you to your current opinion and whether they are really valid. Or, alternatively, you could take the tact that you have above and simply try and disparage anyone who disagrees with you and upsets your cozy world view.

I don't worry too much about what people think of my opinions. I have ground them solidly in fact, physics, and history, and therefore don't worry too much about what someone on an internet forum thinks. Ever noticed that we aren't using heiroglyphics for communication on this forum? Ever seriously consider why that is and what that implies about civilizations? Many are clearly so invested in the current system that they can't even consider well reasoned arguments that don't match what they need to believe. Religion is never pretty that way. But it is sad when the only argument someone can find is to disparage people who don't subscribe to their dogma. And anyone who has studied history should recognize that the myths and narratives that bind societies are rarely more than dogma.

Again, the question was "what will work", and not necessarily how or when the people of the US will be ready for it. The fact remains that a breakup of the country is a traditional solution to this type of problem, that has been effectively implemented in many other countries when faced with the same type of challenges, and it probably will work in the USA as well. I happen to think it will work so well that I will almost certainly see it happen before I take my last breath. But I would expect several other things to be tried first, including possibly the rise of a fascist style demagogue and war for resources, before the USA is ready to accept its fate.

I am happy when I see the Occupy crowds. They aren't necessarily ready for the radical change that is necessary, but movements like this can take on a life of their own, and set the stage for something more meaningful. We are on the cusp of great change. It won't be pretty, but it is necessary to meet the world's changing ecological and physical realities. The growth economics that worked for the last 500 years won't work for the collapse over the next 500.

[JimGant]

You were doing just fine until you used the adverb "too". So you have effectively just called me a wacko.

Actually, your first clue should have been in the preceding paragraph, where I said:

"Consider the source. Gregb also considers the airplane crashes of 9/11 to be a US Government conspiracy."

Where the obvious conclusion -- except by anyone who believes the conspiracy -- is that such a believe is definitely wacko. But, ipso facto, not obvious to you.

So, yes, you're a wacko. Your believe that, in spite of all the other factors/refutations, some engineer's "facts" that aviation fuel (kerosene) could not burn hot enough to collapse the Twin Towers' floors -- is proof of US Gov't involvement in 9/11? Holy Bat Crap -- that is pure wacko.

Too bad, actually, because your arguments in other areas are well-presented, from obviously someone with an education (at least in English grammar). However, the 9/11 thingy makes everything you say, especially with projections, not to be taken seriously.

Oh, do you think the FED killed JFK? (One theory that's been around awhile, although apparently rejected by Oliver Stone).

[cloudhopper]

Back OT here's a post with links galore - http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/%3F-older-posts-anyone-dumb-enough-believe-obama-supports-99

[Jingthing]

How about Occupy London? Right or Left??

Left. Obviously.

Next ...

[flying]

Back OT here's a post with links galore - http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/%3F-older-posts-anyone-dumb-enough-believe-obama-supports-99

From your link......

Is Anyone Dumb Enough to Believe that Obama Supports the 99%?

I think only the very blind or foolish ever thought Obama supported the people.

It was obvious from before he was elected who he would serve.

Just look at his top ten campaign contributors.

You know how it goes...sheep easy to lead

[flying]

I base all of my analysis on the data as it appears. The fact that I have arrived at a different conclusion than you could be taken by you as an opportunity to reconsider the elements that have led you to your current opinion and whether they are really valid. Or, alternatively, you could take the tact that you have above and simply try and disparage anyone who disagrees with you and upsets your cozy world view.

Dont bother greg....That dog won't hunt. He tows a party line period....never strays far from home & never has an original thought.

Only comes here from time to time to make snide remarks.

[midas]

double post

[midas]

here is an interesting interview between Dylan Rattigan and Bill Black

who was litigation director of the Federal Home Loan Bank Board.

He says that the FBI warned about mortgage fraud as far back as seven years ago

and yet nothing was done

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/44935992#44935992

[midas]

Chris Hedges is a Pulitzer Prize–winning author and former international correspondent for the New York Times

gives some very encouraging words to the protesters

"What happens is in all of these movements ... the foot soldiers of the elite -- the blue uniformed police, the mechanisms of control -- finally don't want to impede the movement and at that point the power elite is left defenseless ... the only thing I can say having been in the middle of similar movements is that this one is real, and this one could take them all down ... I can guarantee you that huge segments of those blue uniformed police sympathize with everything that you're doing."

[midas]

hypocracy at its absolute best

[beechguy]

hypocracy at its absolute best

!

Looks like it was edited by Michael Moore.

[flying]

Looks like it was edited by Michael Moore.

Unlikely as he cannot profit from it like his other sensationalized farces.

Like when he owned shares in Halliburton all the while.....

Best hypocrisy of the film was at roughly 5:25 into it where

the chubby faced chick is saying the Syrian Government is running out of time.

She better check her rolex

[beechguy]

Looks like it was edited by Michael Moore.

Unlikely as he cannot profit from it like his other sensationalized farces.

Like when he owned shares in Halliburton all the while.....

Best hypocrisy of the film was at roughly 5:25 into it where

the chubby faced chick is saying the Syrian Government is running out of time.

She better check her rolex

My comment was based on the content, I don't think there is any comparison to how the OWS protesters have been treated to the Egyptians, Syrians, etc.

[Jingthing]

Can Occupy Wall Street transform Obama into a great Lincolnian president (sans Ford's theater)?

ALREADY, these wonderful protests have completely changed the political dialog in America from a right wing dominated one (deficits, the "evils" of Obamacare) to a clearly left wing one (massive unemployment, unjust economic inequality).

So will Obama be pushed left by OWS to fight for the people? It hasn't happened yet. Time will tell.

So has the agitation of Occupy Wall Street begun to change the context of our discussion. Politicians and commentators who had been silent about economic inequality and the excesses of the financial sector are finally facing up to economic injustice and the irresponsibility of the financial elites. In the meantime, Obama’s moderation has won him absolutely nothing. Having done much to save Wall Street and the banks, he receives in return only ingratitude and criticism. Bankers and financiers who needed the rest of America to bail them out now respond arrogantly when the rest of America complains about the unpaid promissory note it holds.

...

By following Lincoln’s example and acting against the injustices of our time, Obama could also come to occupy the high ground.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/lincoln-points-obama-to-the-high-ground/2011/10/19/gIQANh7kyL_story.html

[flying]

My comment was based on the content, I don't think there is any comparison to how the OWS protesters have been treated to the Egyptians, Syrians, etc.

I will reserve judgment on that ....It is just starting not ending.

[flying]

So will Obama be pushed left by OWS to fight for the people? It hasn't happened yet. Time will tell.

Why would he start now?

Cream of Nothing does as his masters tell him to do...nothing more....as always

Which is why he will go down in history as the biggest disappointment/con that ever occupied the White House.

Too bad actually because he came into office at a time when he could have done as he promised with Hope & Change

He could have been a legend. But it is quite obvious after these years have passed that he was just a creation of

a slick ad campaign....nothing more.

As such people feel very cheated by this one that came when they were weak & really needed some hope.

Yet his use of it was just rhetoric. People will not forget.

[midas]

Looks like it was edited by Michael Moore.

Unlikely as he cannot profit from it like his other sensationalized farces.

Like when he owned shares in Halliburton all the while.....

Best hypocrisy of the film was at roughly 5:25 into it where

the chubby faced chick is saying the Syrian Government is running out of time.

She better check her rolex

My comment was based on the content, I don't think there is any comparison to how the OWS protesters have been treated to the Egyptians, Syrians, etc.

maybe not a direct comparison - in Syria and Egypt the people were governed by a tyrannical individual

whereas in USA the people are governed by tyrannical financial terrorists ( called Banksters ) who even foreclose on

peoples homes without even having the proper legal basis to do so

And now an excellent new article in New Scientist Magazine proves just who is in control

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21228354.500-revealed--the-capitalist-network-that-runs-the-world.html

[beechguy]

It works both ways, the bankers were wrong to give out the loans, and the people were idiots to borrow more than they knew they could pay, especially going into the real estate bubble.

[Naam]

So will Obama be pushed left by OWS to fight for the people? It hasn't happened yet. Time will tell.

Why would he start now?

Cream of Nothing does as his masters tell him to do...nothing more....as always

Which is why he will go down in history as the biggest disappointment/con that ever occupied the White House.

Too bad actually because he came into office at a time when he could have done as he promised with Hope & Change

He could have been a legend. But it is quite obvious after these years have passed that he was just a creation of

a slick ad campaign....nothing more.

As such people feel very cheated by this one that came when they were weak & really needed some hope.

Yet his use of it was just rhetoric. People will not forget.

sad but true! not only American citizens hoped for a change. a lot of other citizen in other countries had the same hopes and are disappointed.

[midas]

It works both ways, the bankers were wrong to give out the loans, and the people were idiots to borrow more than they knew they could pay, especially going into the real estate bubble.

so no one seems to be suggesting a 50-50 split in the liabilities ?

it now seems a little bit one-sided?

[flying]

It works both ways, the bankers were wrong to give out the loans, and the people were idiots to borrow more than they knew they could pay, especially going into the real estate bubble.

It is called predatory lending for a reason.

If you dangle a steak in front of starving folks & tell them don't worry eat...eat...you can pay later & we will make the interest so low.

Even though we know you in no way qualify since you have no credit, no job, no assets....But hey we are not worried because we will roll your mortgage along with thousands of others into neat bundles & sell them worldwide as AAA rated property backed securities.

Then we will also take out policies/hedge bets that will pay us when they fail because we know they will fail...After all your poor hahahah

But of course those who buy the bundles will get nothing except the worthless paper they are written on.

Last but not least we will get low/no interest loans from the government for our troubles & we will not serve a day in jail.

Wonder why the folks in the streets are so mad?

[flying]

sad but true! not only American citizens hoped for a change. a lot of other citizen in other countries had the same hopes and are disappointed.

Nothing as bad as desperate folks being promised hope...Only to later find they have been duped.

That creates some angry folks.