1,000 Boats To Push Flood Waters From Chao Phraya River

[Mosha]

Maybe they got the idea from watching them helping to propel the oil tanker with oars in Waterworld.

[OzMick]

IMHO boat propellers will give a localised increase of flow rate, which will be dissipated as friction with slower water molecules. What this will do is heat the water so marginally as to be unobservable.

So what you are saying is that the Science Minister Plodprasop is at least partially right. Looking at the OP that would be "water three times faster". Just skip any on 'drain' and 'prevent floodwater pouring into Bangkok'

Not in the least. To triple the flow rate of millions of tons of water would require ADDING 8 times the energy which it currently possesses - you are talking nuclear bomb figures.

Also the standing wave required would be far higher than the bank clearance available.

[wana]

any effort to "triple" the water flow speed would push a tidal wave over the banks and flood places that might not have flooded if they had just done nothing ............

look at the waves a single jek-ski can make then imagine when ................. better just get some popcorn and climb up a tree and watch

[TAWP]

Not in the least. To triple the flow rate of millions of tons of water would require ADDING 8 times the energy which it currently possesses - you are talking nuclear bomb figures.

Also the standing wave required would be far higher than the bank clearance available.

I tried highlighting this earlier, but it needs restating. Hopefully now everyone understand just how big of a lie it is they are pushing around...(small pun intended).

This idea of being able to triple the speed (i.e. kinetic energy) of the water flow is ludicrous.

[MaxYakov]

Thank you for that thoughtful reply. Question. If a boat is floating in a river; the boat is pointed directly upstream, and the engine in the boat is running at a speed at which it is neither moving downstream nor powering upstream, will the propeller be moving water downstream faster than the current, or is the power merely sufficient to keep the boat from being pushed downstream?

And Thank You for the inspiration. I'd say both. The propeller backwash has to produce enough opposing force to balance the water's downstream force on the boat's hull. The water velocity relative to the propeller is the same as the downstream velocity, so the water has to be accelerated by it to produce enough opposing force on the boat. Newton's Third Law. However, there will be a wake from the hull in this case.

Alternatively, if the boat is tied to a tree or a bridge, and therefore the engine is not being used to propel the boat forward or to keep the boat from moving downstream, then is the motive power of the engine being used to force water faster downstream? (An inherent assumption is that friction of the water against the hull of the boat and the inefficiencies of the motor and propeller (e.g. cavitation) are not being taken into account.)

What do you think? Is there a difference in the utility between a tethered and un-tethered boat?

No, but only if the engine is not running any faster than with the previous case. The tether ropes are producing the opposing force rather than the water. However, the engine can be run faster when the boat is tied-up because there's no risk of producing a larger wake from having the boat going upstream from the increased engine power as with the first case. In fact, there isn't a hull wake when tied-up - only propeller backwash which is not comparable to a hull wake. IMHO.

There is also the issue of molecular friction between the accelerated propwash water and the relatively slower downstream water which was brought up by another astute poster, OzMick. His hypothesis is that all this water-chuning will really result only in increasing the temperature of the water some very small amount and not materially result in an increased velocity of the river water overall.

Interesting questions which still make me wonder if Newton's Third Law actually is in effect in all cases in Thailand. There's those 'Holy Beings', you know ...

Edited October 10, 2011 by MaxYakov

[monty1412]

Probably the biggest problem with this approach is how to incorporate the many irrigation canals the channel would intersect during it's path to the bay. But with appropriate forethought I am sure this could be addressed. Avoiding major water paths as in the pic below would likely be a requirement. This of course is a long term solution. It is likely to late for realistically addressing the current flooding situation with any workable solution.

What I cant believe all the posts here.. you mean you don't believe this. After he has accomplished this he plans to install a hydroelectric plant run by the boats and then he will cross the river by walking on it.

Afternoon will see a few tonnes of lead turned into gold ( short gold stocks now) and then a spot of time travel before dinner back to Siam Reap about 500 years ago where a large sign " property of Siam" will be affixed.

Evening will be pleasant dinner under the sheltered boughs of the Tree of Life followed by a dip in the fountain of youth....

I just cant believe you don't all feel and believe what this guy is capable of.... educated at Thai equivalent of Hogwarts and embodied with the dark arts.

[apetley]

'Mythbusters' need to investigate this one

[MaxYakov]

any effort to "triple" the water flow speed would push a tidal wave over the banks and flood places that might not have flooded if they had just done nothing ............

look at the waves a single jek-ski can make then imagine when ................. better just get some popcorn and climb up a tree and watch

I don't think they plan on having these boats jetting around the Phraya. But as far as climbing trees, goes ... do you live at ground level in a flood-risk area by any chance? Popcorn is best served dry.

Edited October 10, 2011 by MaxYakov

[wana]

any effort to "triple" the water flow speed would push a tidal wave over the banks and flood places that might not have flooded if they had just done nothing ............

look at the waves a single jek-ski can make then imagine when ................. better just get some popcorn and climb up a tree and watch

I don't think they plan on having these boats jetting around the Phraya. But as far as climbing trees, goes ... do you live at ground level in a flood-risk area by any chance? Popcorn is best served dry.

no sir ,unless the floods are epic (think end of the world type situation ) .......my popcorn will be dry ...because i live on a high floor

i do live in an area prone to flooding though ,so im not so sure if il be able to leave the building for a few days as my street is more than capable of flooding in a heavy rain

[Robby nz]

One of the things I had to do in a past life was to clear mud from a boat ramp in a river.

To acchieve this I used a stationary (teathered) boat with twin outboards.

I can tell you from this experience that a teathered boat will increase the water flow behind it considerably, certainly enough to shift tons of mud as I had to do.

It also drags water from the sharp end so the increase in flow starts in front of the boat as the props suck as well as push.

It is logical to assume the 1000 boats will all be teathered and close to the river mouth.

So maybe not so silly as some experts posting on the topic seem to think.

Although you would want to do it on a falling tide.

[BabySun]

1000 boats together have power like 50 000HP - 100 000HP.This is power plant of the biggest warship of WWII or today nuke submarine.

Have you seen battleship like "Missouri" or nuke sub going full throttle on high seas?Now imagine she is anchored under bridge here and going full throttle?

No effect?

This is simple physics on grammar school level.

[h90]

Everyone should go to the mouth of the river and the beach in the Gulf of Thailand and take one bucket of water out to make space for the oncoming flood.

Obviously this is in jest, but who knows, maybe the science minister has a brother with a bucket factory.

No fill the water in container which we send out with container boats and drain on the Andaman side so the gulf does not rise even more.

[wana]

It is logical to assume the 1000 boats will all be teathered and close to the river mouth.

.

what exactly are you going to tether 1000 large boats to ? there isnt much to tie a rope around in this area

and even if there was a bridge or something ,would it hold ? 1000 large boats behind held static in place against the current of the chayo praya will be a task in itself

and clearing mud is not the same as dispersing water ,as water has the viscosity advantage over mud ,it will find its own level regardless of where you push it

[Netfan]

According to the Thailand Live thread there has been a small adjustment in the number of boats partaking in this great endeavor:..."The Marine Department and the Thai Ship Owners Association have jointly mobilized more than 100 boats to divert water from the Chao Phraya River into the sea."

Edited October 10, 2011 by Netfan

[wana]

1000 boats together have power like 50 000HP - 100 000HP.This is power plant of the biggest warship of WWII or today nuke submarine.

Have you seen battleship like "Missouri" or nuke sub going full throttle on high seas?Now imagine she is anchored under bridge here and going full throttle?

No effect?

This is simple physics on grammar school level.

simple physics will say they would risk losing that bridge if the rivers force on the 1000 large boats exceeds the foundations ,bridges were never designed for this kind of thing

certaintly not thai constructed bridges

[Crushdepth]

1000 boats together have power like 50 000HP - 100 000HP.This is power plant of the biggest warship of WWII or today nuke submarine.

Have you seen battleship like "Missouri" or nuke sub going full throttle on high seas?Now imagine she is anchored under bridge here and going full throttle?

No effect?

This is simple physics on grammar school level.

Have you been down to the river lately? The reality might help put it in perspective.

[BuckarooBanzai]

I found this thesis of interest regarding the history and methods of flood control for Bangkok. It goes by the catchy title of Fuzzy logic in polder flood control operations in Bangkok.https://circle.ubc.ca/handle/2429/7122

I have high lighted a small portion of the thesis in the picture below (Thesis PDF has no text) as it regards an approach I advocated earlier.

From my old math days I set up the comments highlighted as a psudo equation.

Resons to do ~~~~ Reasons not to do

Viable + Economical ~~~~ To Expensive + Political problems with land purchase

Now we can remove the Economical and To Expensive as being pretty much self cancelling on both sides of the equation.

We are left with the real reason - it's viable but politically to much of a problem.

No surprise. It seems just about everything here is politically motivated.

Fuzzy logic in polder flood control operations in Bangkok

Author: Agsorn, Songkran

Degree Doctor of Philosophy - PhD

Program Civil Engineering

Copyright Date: 1995

Edited October 10, 2011 by BuckarooBanzai

[wintermute]

1000 boats together have power like 50 000HP - 100 000HP.This is power plant of the biggest warship of WWII or today nuke submarine.

Have you seen battleship like "Missouri" or nuke sub going full throttle on high seas?Now imagine she is anchored under bridge here and going full throttle?

No effect?

This is simple physics on grammar school level.

Simple physics also says that you can't just add up hundreds ships and their HP and consider it the same as one ship with that HP. Even if the boats are positioned ideally for this they produce their own "mini-wake" which overlaps the current the other boats are generating. This probably breaks up the total effect and creates more of a chaotic wave pool action. It's like when you're in the ocean and you have multiple flowing currents and you end up with surge.

[wintermute]

Also, even if by some cosmicly remote chance this does work the staggering amounts of fuel they will burn in this little escapade will probably far outweigh the costs at just subsidizing rebuilding and relocation costs.

This plan is just silly all around and it's like an episode of Pen and Teller's Bullsh*t.

[Buchholz]

1000 boats together have power like 50 000HP - 100 000HP.This is power plant of the biggest warship of WWII or today nuke submarine.

Have you seen battleship like "Missouri" or nuke sub going full throttle on high seas?Now imagine she is anchored under bridge here and going full throttle?

No effect?

This is simple physics on grammar school level.

Plodprasop has a disciple.

.

[wana]

According to the Thailand Live thread there has been a small adjustment in the number of boats partaking in this great endeavor:..."The Marine Department and the Thai Ship Owners Association have jointly mobilized more than 100 boats to divert water from the Chao Phraya River into the sea."

someone didnt approve the estimated fuel bill of 1000 ships .........

it looks like they have realised themselves this idea is hopeless but cant fully back out of it after giving it their full support yesterday

[soundman]

Posts and replies speculating on HM's involvement in helping with the crisis have been removed from view.

[DavidOxon]

what happens when they get to the end?

Are they all going to turn round and erm....

PUSH IT ALL BACK UP AGAIN!!!!!

# :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Buchholz]

Water diversion operation to start Tuesday

BANGKOK, 10 October 2011 (NNT) – The water drainage operation aimed at saving Bangkok from flooding will begin on Tuesday.

The Marine Department and the Thai Ship Owners Association have jointly mobilized more than 100 boats to divert water from the Chao Phraya River into the sea.

The operation is expected to begin from Ko Kret and end at the estuary of the Chao Phraya River.

The Marine Department has dispatched 13 inspection boats to monitor the situation and facilitate the water traffic.

Ship owners who want to join the operation are welcome to call the hotline 1199.

-- NNT 2011-10-10

[BabySun]

1000 boats together have power like 50 000HP - 100 000HP.This is power plant of the biggest warship of WWII or today nuke submarine.

Have you seen battleship like "Missouri" or nuke sub going full throttle on high seas?Now imagine she is anchored under bridge here and going full throttle?

No effect?

This is simple physics on grammar school level.

Simple physics also says that you can't just add up hundreds ships and their HP and consider it the same as one ship with that HP. Even if the boats are positioned ideally for this they produce their own "mini-wake" which overlaps the current the other boats are generating. This probably breaks up the total effect and creates more of a chaotic wave pool action. It's like when you're in the ocean and you have multiple flowing currents and you end up with surge.

boats are anchored,they do not go anywhere - they do not make wake.together they create surface current which is faster then natural gravity current.In similar way winds create currents on ocean.

You can do it yourself in your bathtub or you can rent kayak and go around PangNa to study fine points of fluid mechanics if your grammaschool was insuficient.

[BabySun]

1000 boats together have power like 50 000HP - 100 000HP.This is power plant of the biggest warship of WWII or today nuke submarine.

Have you seen battleship like "Missouri" or nuke sub going full throttle on high seas?Now imagine she is anchored under bridge here and going full throttle?

No effect?

This is simple physics on grammar school level.

simple physics will say they would risk losing that bridge if the rivers force on the 1000 large boats exceeds the foundations ,bridges were never designed for this kind of thing

certaintly not thai constructed bridges

and simple imagination will tell you,that there is no space under one bridge for one thousand boats,or is it simple arithmetic?

however you want to admit,that boats power will be to strong for one bridge?how come?not strong enough to move water but to strong for bridge?

The bridge was designed to stand even during floods,so it is strong.

[cdnvic]

Keep the redshirt/yellow shirt crap out of here please. Off topic posts removed.

[wana]

1000 boats together have power like 50 000HP - 100 000HP.This is power plant of the biggest warship of WWII or today nuke submarine.

Have you seen battleship like "Missouri" or nuke sub going full throttle on high seas?Now imagine she is anchored under bridge here and going full throttle?

No effect?

This is simple physics on grammar school level.

simple physics will say they would risk losing that bridge if the rivers force on the 1000 large boats exceeds the foundations ,bridges were never designed for this kind of thing

certaintly not thai constructed bridges

and simple imagination will tell you,that there is no space under one bridge for one thousand boats,or is it simple arithmetic?

however you want to admit,that boats power will be to strong for one bridge?how come?not strong enough to move water but to strong for bridge?

The bridge was designed to stand even during floods,so it is strong.

show me a bridge that was designed to have a 1000 large boats tied to it ..........in any country in the world ?

you missed the point completely ,but luckily the authoritys have scrapped the idea already and cut the number down to 100 boats

[cdnvic]

you missed the point completely ,but luckily the authoritys have scrapped the idea already and cut the number down to 100 boats

Someone quietly pointed out that they don't have 1000 large boats?

[BabySun]

1000 boats together have power like 50 000HP - 100 000HP.This is power plant of the biggest warship of WWII or today nuke submarine.

Have you seen battleship like "Missouri" or nuke sub going full throttle on high seas?Now imagine she is anchored under bridge here and going full throttle?

No effect?

This is simple physics on grammar school level.

Plodprasop has a disciple.

.

Yamato - japanese No1 battleship

displacement - 72 000tons

powerplant 150Mwatts

speed 50km/hour - about 15mtr/sec

Chaopraya flow --- 3 500tons/sec

will you see the difference between these two numbers: Yamato displacement : 72 000tons

Chiaopraya flow 3 500tons

?

20(twenty) times

that battleship had propelers - exactly the same device which is used in every boat,just bigger.