Thai Royal Insult Law May Have Been Misused: Govt

[Emptyset]

I think you will find that one of the very first things that the Abhisit government did was to substantially increase the maximum sentence for LM within months of taking office.

...

I didn't find that. Do you have any details?

That's not true. Sentences were increased to their current length by the Thanin post-76 Thammasat Massacre government. I think the maximum was increased to 15 from 5. LM was rarely punished before that btw. Apparently judges didn't take the law that seriously and usually let people go with a slap on the wrist.

[unanimosity]

and will just say that I look forward to the day when all things can be openly discussed in Thailand.

You'll be waiting for a long time then because it's never going to happen. The law has been like this since the late 60's.

And many countries have things like that. Either per law (in Germany/Austria with the WW2 things) or just per public opinion, if you have different ideas what happened on 9/11 everyone in USA closes the ears and shouts conspiration theorist.

so every country has its restrictions...

Murder is ok because in some countries you can get away with it. That's essentially what your logic is. Back in the old days people used to call each other witches and have them burned too. Your point is meaningless.

Point? You actually saw a point?

[Emptyset]

The law is a law and there is not really much of a reason or benefit to break it.

There are many other ways to speak out and wording that the law would not apply.

I think most of the people that do break it do it for personal gain and attention.

So there's not much 'benefit' to break it, yet people that do break it break it for personal gain? Does going to jail gain you anything? I suppose a few lucky farang might get a book deal out of it.

Actually one of the problems with the law is that there's quite a grey area over what's within the law and what isn't. Academic commentary is supposed to be fine, but people have been charged for that. Whereas I've seen people say quite outrageous things while being very careful not to break the law (fine by me, of course, I disagree with the law full stop, I think people should have transparent government and a free and open discussion about who runs their country - if they want it...).

Also, doing it for gain and publicity would be a pretty silly thing to do since many cases aren't even reported on or get little attention. Prachatai recently reported on the case of a Singaporean national who was recently convicted to 10 years imprisonment for LM. Not all cases make the New York Times. Streckfuss, an expert on LM reckons there are over 100 currently in jail for the offense.

[globalmenace]

Got to agree with most of the comments here. It could be worse though. I see what goes on in this country as on the better part of the curve of the personality cult form of political control. Ultimately, personality cults have no good result.

[EvilDrSomkid]

It is my opinion that the LM laws should be abolished. I have read some things which would be direct violations of the LM laws, but were very educational.

I believe that should the LM laws be abolished, it would be a great step forward for this country.

disclaimer: If I understood the rules correctly, discussing the law itself is OK. Right?

Edited October 14, 2011 by EvilDrSomkid

[hpwheelman]

Hope it is OK to say this, but has anyone actually asked the Royal Family if what someone said was insulting to them? I mean, shouldn't they be the ones actually deciding that? Didn't the Human Rights meeting have someone say that? I think it was the King of a European country.

[RichardSmith99999]

disclaimer: If I understood the rules correctly, discussing the law itself is OK. Right?

Only under TV rules. Even discussing the law itself would make you guilty by association. They are both so to say, joined at the hip, inseperable. As an earlier poster pointed out, all that can be said is that Thailand has an LM law and it is scatalogical to suggest otherwise.

[whybother]

disclaimer: If I understood the rules correctly, discussing the law itself is OK. Right?

Only under TV rules. Even discussing the law itself would make you guilty by association. They are both so to say, joined at the hip, inseperable. As an earlier poster pointed out, all that can be said is that Thailand has an LM law and it is scatalogical to suggest otherwise.

So TV rules over rule Thai law? Cool !!!

[RichardSmith99999]

disclaimer: If I understood the rules correctly, discussing the law itself is OK. Right?

Only under TV rules. Even discussing the law itself would make you guilty by association. They are both so to say, joined at the hip, inseperable. As an earlier poster pointed out, all that can be said is that Thailand has an LM law and it is scatalogical to suggest otherwise.

So TV rules over rule Thai law? Cool !!!

Bet I imagine they don't!

Edited October 14, 2011 by RichardSmith99999

[TerraPosse]

and will just say that I look forward to the day when all things can be openly discussed in Thailand.

You'll be waiting for a long time then because it's never going to happen. The law has been like this since the late 60's.

And many countries have things like that. Either per law (in Germany/Austria with the WW2 things) or just per public opinion, if you have different ideas what happened on 9/11 everyone in USA closes the ears and shouts conspiration theorist.

so every country has its restrictions...

[mdechgan]

So there's not much 'benefit' to break it, yet people that do break it break it for personal gain? Does going to jail gain you anything? I suppose a few lucky farang might get a book deal out of it.

Actually one of the problems with the law is that there's quite a grey area over what's within the law and what isn't. Academic commentary is supposed to be fine, but people have been charged for that. Whereas I've seen people say quite outrageous things while being very careful not to break the law (fine by me, of course, I disagree with the law full stop, I think people should have transparent government and a free and open discussion about who runs their country - if they want it...).

Also, doing it for gain and publicity would be a pretty silly thing to do since many cases aren't even reported on or get little attention. Prachatai recently reported on the case of a Singaporean national who was recently convicted to 10 years imprisonment for LM. Not all cases make the New York Times. Streckfuss, an expert on LM reckons there are over 100 currently in jail for the offense.

The law is a law, if one doesn't break it in the first place then he/she wouldn't be in jail.

If its vague, don't even try to tread if one can't face the consequences.

There are big cultural differences and values between Thailand and non-monarch countries.

We have to respect the Thai people for their values instead of assuming what is and should be better for them.

Importing and selling chewing gum is illegal in Singapore (unless for dental care), one can get up to 2 years in jail for it.

I know its the law, I don't agree with it, but hey its the law and I won't be chewing gun in Singapore anytime soon.

[TAWP]

I think you will find that one of the very first things that the Abhisit government did was to substantially increase the maximum sentence for LM within months of taking office.

Say what?

You might need to substantiate that claim.

[KhunFred]

and will just say that I look forward to the day when all things can be openly discussed in Thailand.

You'll be waiting for a long time then because it's never going to happen. The law has been like this since the late 60's.

And many countries have things like that. Either per law (in Germany/Austria with the WW2 things) or just per public opinion, if you have different ideas what happened on 9/11 everyone in USA closes the ears and shouts conspiration theorist.

so every country has its restrictions...

The difference being that the USA doesn't throw you in jail for 15 years for "911 Denial". Individuals may attack you for idiotic statements, although they would then be subject to legal action. Thailand just doesn't work like that.

[OzMick]

A funny thing just happened - on the Latest News ticker bar up came "Robert Amsterdam is not a threat: Chalerm" but I only saw it the once, and it is not in the solid type News Alerts.

Isn't democracy wonderful when the DPM can decide whether his mates get charged by the police or not? No, that's wrong - somebody else has already brought the charges, Chalerm is deciding whether they carry out their duty or not. But isn't there some sort of requirement that police present a case for a court to decide the issue?

Where has the topic gone?

[TAWP]

It is here:

[rich54321]

ADMIN - why don't you just post the headline and the information and make it so no one can reply - making it safe for all members!

[RichardSmith99999]

ADMIN - why don't you just post the headline and the information and make it so no one can reply - making it safe for all members!

I'm waiting for a 'post deleted for being on topic' message

[peecee]

The law is a law and there is not really much of a reason or benefit to break it.

There are many other ways to speak out and wording that the law would not apply.

I think most of the people that do break it do it for personal gain and attention.

Most Monarchies grew with the times a long, long time before this one. You can look up cartoons lampooning many of europes Royal Households; typically Britains King George III & his son or even Queen Victoria. Leave politics to the politicians should be any democratic monarchy's philosophy and let the people judge your right of majesty (giving thier Monarch the supreme status and dignity of state) to me is the true meaning of Royalty.

[MILT]

and will just say that I look forward to the day when all things can be openly discussed in Thailand.

You'll be waiting for a long time then because it's never going to happen. The law has been like this since the late 60's.

Late 60's? of which Dynasty?

[MILT]

So there's not much 'benefit' to break it, yet people that do break it break it for personal gain? Does going to jail gain you anything? I suppose a few lucky farang might get a book deal out of it.

Actually one of the problems with the law is that there's quite a grey area over what's within the law and what isn't. Academic commentary is supposed to be fine, but people have been charged for that. Whereas I've seen people say quite outrageous things while being very careful not to break the law (fine by me, of course, I disagree with the law full stop, I think people should have transparent government and a free and open discussion about who runs their country - if they want it...).

Also, doing it for gain and publicity would be a pretty silly thing to do since many cases aren't even reported on or get little attention. Prachatai recently reported on the case of a Singaporean national who was recently convicted to 10 years imprisonment for LM. Not all cases make the New York Times. Streckfuss, an expert on LM reckons there are over 100 currently in jail for the offense.

The law is a law, if one doesn't break it in the first place then he/she wouldn't be in jail.

If its vague, don't even try to tread if one can't face the consequences.

There are big cultural differences and values between Thailand and non-monarch countries.

We have to respect the Thai people for their values instead of assuming what is and should be better for them.

Importing and selling chewing gum is illegal in Singapore (unless for dental care), one can get up to 2 years in jail for it.

I know its the law, I don't agree with it, but hey its the law and I won't be chewing gun in Singapore anytime soon.

The law IS the law here.You are so right!

[MILT]

Totally idiotic to even have this post open? unless Thai Visa are wanting to reduce membership/

Thailand is just a bunch of school kids..selfish, ignorant and if they dont get their own way sulk, hit you, lock you up or kill you

All in the name of Democracy of course

My thoughts exactly, the part about reducing membership..... :-)

You say that Thailand is a bunch of school kids bla bla bla bla bla What are you comparing your negative assessment to? Do you live here? Do you actually know anything about Thailand? The country your from? I more than likely can say the same for your home country. You are nothing but a Thai basher!

[Jumper]

I'm a US citizen (I'm sorry) who has been living in Thailand for almost 5 years now. During this time I've been monitoring this site because it occasionally gives useful information, and this is my first reply. I live here by choice because I love it and I recognize that being a stranger in a strange land I must accept local customs and practices.

I'm actually growing quite weary of the recreational Thai bashing that occurs on this site.

While it's true that the Lelse Majeste laws here would not stand up to the scrutiny of the US Supreme Court relative to the US constitution's first amendment protections, neither the US Supreme Court nor the US constitution have any relevance here.

Thailand is a young democracy and at this stage of it's development, I think it compares favorably to the US at a similar stage. We need only recall in the US the abuses of Tammany Hall, the criminally controlled politicos of the 1920's-1930's in New York and Chicago and the repression of free speech that occurred during the 1960's-19-70's .

Give the Thai people a fair chance.

If you have a different historical perspective, I'd be happy to discuss.

[animatic]

I'm a US citizen (I'm sorry) who has been living in Thailand for almost 5 years now. During this time I've been monitoring this site because it occasionally gives useful information, and this is my first reply. I live here by choice because I love it and I recognize that being a stranger in a strange land I must accept local customs and practices.

I'm actually growing quite weary of the recreational Thai bashing that occurs on this site.

While it's true that the Lelse Majeste laws here would not stand up to the scrutiny of the US Supreme Court relative to the US constitution's first amendment protections, neither the US Supreme Court nor the US constitution have any relevance here.

Thailand is a young democracy and at this stage of it's development, I think it compares favorably to the US at a similar stage. We need only recall in the US the abuses of Tammany Hall, the criminally controlled politicos of the 1920's-1930's in New York and Chicago and the repression of free speech that occurred during the 1960's-19-70's .

Give the Thai people a fair chance.

If you have a different historical perspective, I'd be happy to discuss.

Not forgetting at about the same historical point in the USA life span the Civil War was about to break out. North / South, agrarian / manufacturing etc.

Boss Tweed and his machine is a kindred spirit of the Local Political Machines for sure.

Are we watching the Thai version of Gangs Of New York playing out?

Edited October 14, 2011 by animatic

[roamer]

I read the rules very carefully about what I may or may not post. And if I put Thailand Paris into Google News and come up with an article earlier this month that portrays a Thai royal in a perfectly acceptable light and a foreign royal to be the jumped up useless brat that she is, then that post would stay on the board ? I doubt it. I suppose anyone reading this could put it to the test.....

[Jumper]

Jumper, on 46 minutes ago, said:

I'm a US citizen (I'm sorry) who has been living in Thailand for almost 5 years now. During this time I've been monitoring this site because it occasionally gives useful information, and this is my first reply. I live here by choice because I love it and I recognize that being a stranger in a strange land I must accept local customs and practices.

I'm actually growing quite weary of the recreational Thai bashing that occurs on this site.

While it's true that the Lelse Majeste laws here would not stand up to the scrutiny of the US Supreme Court relative to the US constitution's first amendment protections, neither the US Supreme Court nor the US constitution have any relevance here.

Thailand is a young democracy and at this stage of it's development, I think it compares favorably to the US at a similar stage. We need only recall in the US the abuses of Tammany Hall, the criminally controlled politicos of the 1920's-1930's in New York and Chicago and the repression of free speech that occurred during the 1960's-19-70's .

Give the Thai people a fair chance.

If you have a different historical perspective, I'd be happy to discuss.

Not forgetting at about the same historical point in the USA life span the Civil War was about to break out. North / South, agrarian / manufacturing etc.

Boss Tweed and his machine is a kindred spirit of the Local Political Machines for sure.

Are we watching the Thai version of Gangs Of New York playing out?

Reply:

You are correct in your timing relevant to the stage of the US democracy (the civil war ended in 1865, about 90 years into our thing) verses Thailand today. I do not think we are seeing a playing out of the "Gangs of New York" movie which was historically reasonably accurate. From everything I see I do not for a moment think that Thais could be be that vicious. That why I included the (I'm sorry) when I said I was a US citizen.

[mdechgan]

Most Monarchies grew with the times a long, long time before this one. You can look up cartoons lampooning many of europes Royal Households; typically Britains King George III & his son or even Queen Victoria. Leave politics to the politicians should be any democratic monarchy's philosophy and let the people judge your right of majesty (giving thier Monarch the supreme status and dignity of state) to me is the true meaning of Royalty.

Very good wording.

Thailand isn't the only country in the world with LM laws. Some countries in EU also have them.

The LM law in Thailand has existed since 1908, it was even included in the 2007 constitution which the Thai people voted for.

It is a fact that the govenment and the courts are the people that files charges and tries the law breakers.

Usually in the headline news foreigners are the ones that commit the crime, but are usually pardoned and deported.

[george]

ADMIN - why don't you just post the headline and the information and make it so no one can reply - making it safe for all members!

Better safe than sorry! Thread closed.