Red Shirts Mimic Village Tactics Used By Rebels: Thai Opinion

[renaissanc]

I foresee significant budget allocations being used to entice villages to join the Federation in all regions. Thailand will become divided clearly and officially.

But disunity breaks a fundamental law of nature for an organism, and this will be Thaksin's downfall. You just can't break laws of nature without consequences.

The seeds of Thaksin's destruction are built into his Red Shirt Federation. Surely he must see this or has his desire for power and money blinded him completely? He had better not sell his home in Dubai.

Very difficult to dislodge a government that can legally enhance the lives of it's core support.........why would the government need to divide the country?

I don't think that the government will deliberately divide the country. It will happen, I think, because many people don't like Thaksin, and won't join his Federation.

[tlansford]

This is hardly a good reason, though, to demonize an opposition group whose elected government was stolen by a military coup.

An opposition group that didn't protest when their "elected" government was stolen by a military coup in 2006, but rather swung into action years later and by pure coincidence, at a time when Thaksin's court case regarding frozen monies was being decided upon.

to be accurate, the first anti-coup protests were days (not years) after the coup.

[parryhandy]

In a true free/democracy there should be no need for political parties (gangs). People should be well educated enough to actually vote on individual laws and seats of power should be short term,hold little actual power and be constantly revolving. Also the rule of law is paramount for a democracy and so is the right to bear arms,in my opinion,(no I am British not American), so as the government is not just another brute force gang holding the people to ransom. The citizenry being armed tends to give incentive to actually govern by consensus and fairly.

Only country that comes close to all of these I suppose is Switzerland.

People really are blind if they cant see that villages are run mainly on the "if you aint with us your against us mentality" and to publicly voice a differing opinion if your of low status could seriously not help your career prospects and be downright dangerous.Dont worry about the reds ever getting out of hand, there's always the BIB to keep everybody in line.

Edited October 15, 2011 by parryhandy

[ozzieman05]

My wife after living outside Thailand for over 5 years now says the Red Shirt Villages are for non thinking people

Once a political party has your vote, you are of little concern to them

The people who are important are swinging voters who need to be brought under the Red Shirt Banner

[hammered]

The smallest group in the country is the anti-Thaksinista group. The other two groups of couldnt give a monkeys and Thaksinistas are bigger. The only area where the anti-Thaksiinistas may be in a majority is the south. Whoever gets the couldnt give a monkeys onside wins and at the moment the Thaksinistas have the upper hand there and in this middle group there is a desire to see a deal. That suits Thaksin but it is very hard for the anti-thaksinistas who dont ever want him back which only makes their chances of getting the middle group on side. When only one side will compromise the middle goes to that side. A split just leaves an unhappy south with the entrie rest of the country seeing majorities happy with compromise

[TAWP]

The smallest group in the country is the anti-Thaksinista group. The other two groups of couldnt give a monkeys and Thaksinistas are bigger. The only area where the anti-Thaksiinistas may be in a majority is the south. Whoever gets the couldnt give a monkeys onside wins and at the moment the Thaksinistas have the upper hand there and in this middle group there is a desire to see a deal. That suits Thaksin but it is very hard for the anti-thaksinistas who dont ever want him back which only makes their chances of getting the middle group on side. When only one side will compromise the middle goes to that side. A split just leaves an unhappy south with the entrie rest of the country seeing majorities happy with compromise

Only the South? I think it is time you take a look at the election-map again...

[rixalex]

This is hardly a good reason, though, to demonize an opposition group whose elected government was stolen by a military coup.

An opposition group that didn't protest when their "elected" government was stolen by a military coup in 2006, but rather swung into action years later and by pure coincidence, at a time when Thaksin's court case regarding frozen monies was being decided upon.

to be accurate, the first anti-coup protests were days (not years) after the coup.

I was here in those days. If there were any anti-coup protests, they were minuscule, and at a time, when they should have been at their largest and most vehement - that is if the feeling was genuine and spontaneous.

But hey, if you find nothing suspicious in the time it took for protests to happen - put it all down to time for planning - and see no connection between Thaksin's frozen assets and the timing of the protests, then carry on in your belief.

[OzMick]

This is hardly a good reason, though, to demonize an opposition group whose elected government was stolen by a military coup.

An opposition group that didn't protest when their "elected" government was stolen by a military coup in 2006, but rather swung into action years later and by pure coincidence, at a time when Thaksin's court case regarding frozen monies was being decided upon.

to be accurate, the first anti-coup protests were days (not years) after the coup.

Funny, I must have missed that - do you have a link or any supporting evidence of that statement?

I know that you don't normally answer questions but I would still like to know over which part of the military the civilian administration should have more control. Without at least some specifics it seems to be an attitude based on some emotional disturbance rather than reality.

Edited October 15, 2011 by OzMick

[Tanaka]

Another "Fear and Loathing" editorial from The Nation regarding Red Shirts, Taksin, et al.

In a democracy, citizens have a right to assembly and to associate with whomever they wish. If Thailand now has a democracy, or at least espousing democratic ideals, then all citizens have these rights. It's just too bad for those who don't like it. Elections, democracy, etc., have consequences. But, I say IF Thailand has a democracy, because it is not clear that enoughThais understand this.

This editorial is just one more self-serving, 'the people be damned," poor sport, bad loser, cry baby, so-on-and-so-forth diatribes from The Nation.

No one is stopping the people in these villages from assembly or association. The villages don't need to be labelled to allow them to do that.

No but once they have established the village as a red shirt village, noone with a different opinion will be allowed to talk openly. Dont forget that their leader, the fugitive criminal, Thaksin Shinawatra, clearly stated: "Democracy is no on my agenda"!

[GazR]

I foresee significant budget allocations being used to entice villages to join the Federation in all regions. Thailand will become divided clearly and officially.

But disunity breaks a fundamental law of nature for an organism, and this will be Thaksin's downfall. You just can't break laws of nature without consequences.

The seeds of Thaksin's destruction are built into his Red Shirt Federation. Surely he must see this or has his desire for power and money blinded him completely? He had better not sell his home in Dubai.

Very difficult to dislodge a government that can legally enhance the lives of it's core support.........why would the government need to divide the country?

Divide and rule, obviously.

And most particularly when defacto PM Thaksin is unrivalled as a divisive figure.

Thus a small well-disciplined hardcore group of extremists can dominate political outcomes -

unless they provoke too much of a reaction.

Let me tell you (as a one-time union organizer and widely respected honest broker): THAT, my friends, is how it usually works.

[phiphidon]

No but once they have established the village as a red shirt village, noone with a different opinion will be allowed to talk openly. Dont forget that their leader, the fugitive criminal, Thaksin Shinawatra, clearly stated: "Democracy is no on my agenda"!

No he didn't. He said this

"Democracy is not the goal, the nation's development is more important. Development could happen with any form of government, democracy is not the only form through which progress occurs. The goal here is sufficient economics and the ability to take care of each other instead of widening degrees of income."

Edited October 15, 2011 by phiphidon

[GazR]

In a true free/democracy there should be no need for political parties (gangs). People should be well educated enough to actually vote on individual laws and seats of power should be short term,hold little actual power and be constantly revolving. Also the rule of law is paramount for a democracy and so is the right to bear arms,in my opinion,(no I am British not American), so as the government is not just another brute force gang holding the people to ransom. The citizenry being armed tends to give incentive to actually govern by consensus and fairly.

Only country that comes close to all of these I suppose is Switzerland.

People really are blind if they cant see that villages are run mainly on the "if you aint with us your against us mentality" and to publicly voice a differing opinion if your of low status could seriously not help your career prospects and be downright dangerous.Dont worry about the reds ever getting out of hand, there's always the BIB to keep everybody in line.

Agreed, but BIB - Boys in Brown??

When the gloves come off it's the BIG (Green) that usually have the biggest say in determining outcomes because they have all the tanks.

It will be interesting to see how the 'watermelon soldier' phenomenon fares under this 'Red Village' extremism.

Hopefully, the Law of Unintended Consequences will cause it to backfire on them before they tear the country apart completely.

[rixalex]

No but once they have established the village as a red shirt village, noone with a different opinion will be allowed to talk openly. Dont forget that their leader, the fugitive criminal, Thaksin Shinawatra, clearly stated: "Democracy is no on my agenda"!

No he didn't. He said this

"Democracy is not the goal, the nation's development is more important. Development could happen with any form of government, democracy is not the only form through which progress occurs. The goal here is sufficient economics and the ability to take care of each other instead of widening degrees of income."

Yes, because democracy is not on my agenda is so much different from democracy is not the goal.

[ianf]

I have a relative who joined the red shirt Bangkok rallies. He was politically disinterested, but temporarily unemployed due to the season. He planned on taking the free bus to Bangkok, spending a few days having a good time, and making some money. What could be wrong with that? Weeks later when he asked for his identity card back so he could go home to his family, he was told that if he failed to show up for his daily pay in the evening, his family would all be killed.

If what you say is true the situation would have been duplicated with many examples.However this is the first time I have heard of this kind of threat.I am sceptical (to put it politely).

We have heard other examples on this forum of strangely negative stories told to foreigners by their "red relatives".On examination they turned out to be untrue.

I have heard of the threats before. Not of a whole family being killed, but threats nonetheless, implied or otherwise. It's only ever likely to be anecdotal stuff though, and so it goes that some will believe in it being quite plausible, while others will dismiss is as being fabricated lies all part of some smear attempt.

This is a very dangerous development and contradicts the whole notion of democracy. These poor people are being duped, just as so many before them in many different cultures. Frightening stuff.

[GazR]

No but once they have established the village as a red shirt village, noone with a different opinion will be allowed to talk openly. Dont forget that their leader, the fugitive criminal, Thaksin Shinawatra, clearly stated: "Democracy is no on my agenda"!

No he didn't. He said this

"Democracy is not the goal, the nation's development is more important. Development could happen with any form of government, democracy is not the only form through which progress occurs. The goal here is sufficient economics and the ability to take care of each other instead of widening degrees of income."

<deleted> - even a child could see through that:

The record shows that 'democracy' was merely the chosen means by which Thaksin achieved political dominance.

But thanks for providing this quote in proper context so people can see that Thaksin's own words taken in proper context show him to be the anti-democrat his actions have always betrayed.

Unfortunately, the Reds could show Thaksin to be a comparatively harmless dupe before their done.

Edited October 15, 2011 by GazR

[OzMick]

Thanks for this. May I suggest your relative was a bit weak-minded and naive...there are thugs like this in every political crowd, even the government and the military.

Your relative should have moved on up the line in order to get the ID returned, rather than staying on for additional weeks or months. I sympathize with this scenario but somehow I find it hard to believe in full.

Perhaps I'm being naive but I also doubt that staying and participating for an extended period was the only option remaining for your relative.

In the grander scheme, yes, there are thugs like this in every crowd - even the US has them now during "Occupy Wall Street". There are lots of people who go to those things with the primary purpose of venting their cruelty, with the political ideas being secondary or simply the 'kindling wood' for inflaming their cruelty. Sounds like your relative met some of those folks.

This is hardly a good reason, though, to demonize an opposition group whose elected government was stolen by a military coup.

It is possible to be intolerant and right, but it is not possible to be intolerant and a democracy.

Red shirt villages are a living oxymoron the same as "jumbo shrimp" and "military intelligence" are verbal oxymorons. This government sactioned and increasing polarization is scary. I fear for the country and I fear for the very people whose niavete is being used to enslave themselves.

This can only happen because there's a huge difference between what is being said and what is being done. If I could rely on the words alone, I, too would be a staunch Red Shirt. But I have been here long enough to see the actions. I was there when things happened, and I am now listening to the reports of those events and I can see that there is very little connection. The Red Shirt leaders talk a good story, but they live a different one.

I have a relative who joined the red shirt Bangkok rallies. He was politically disinterested, but temporarily unemployed due to the season. He planned on taking the free bus to Bangkok, spending a few days having a good time, and making some money. What could be wrong with that? Weeks later when he asked for his identity card back so he could go home to his family, he was told that if he failed to show up for his daily pay in the evening, his family would all be killed. The red leaders were convincing enough that my relative continued with them and was still there when the army arrived. The leaders, however, were not.

Talk is cheap, and the political leaders evidently feel the gullible are worth about the same. Organizing into permanent polarized settlements is a dangerous escalation.

"......... an opposition group whose elected government was stolen by a military coup."

I hate to tell you this, but there was once a man named Samak. There is also a lady named yingluk. Both were elected since the coup. But at the time of the coup, the PM's mandate had expired. Please take this into consideration before making remarks like the above.

[slapout]

No but once they have established the village as a red shirt village, noone with a different opinion will be allowed to talk openly. Dont forget that their leader, the fugitive criminal, Thaksin Shinawatra, clearly stated: "Democracy is no on my agenda"!

No he didn't. He said this

"Democracy is not the goal, the nation's development is more important. Development could happen with any form of government, democracy is not the only form through which progress occurs. The goal here is sufficient economics and the ability to take care of each other instead of widening degrees of income."

He apparently did not follow his last goal quoted. He blew the 'widening degrees of income' right off the chart. But he did seem to have a perchance to tell a porkie now and again.

[nicknostitz]

This is hardly a good reason, though, to demonize an opposition group whose elected government was stolen by a military coup.

An opposition group that didn't protest when their "elected" government was stolen by a military coup in 2006, but rather swung into action years later and by pure coincidence, at a time when Thaksin's court case regarding frozen monies was being decided upon.

to be accurate, the first anti-coup protests were days (not years) after the coup.

I was here in those days. If there were any anti-coup protests, they were minuscule, and at a time, when they should have been at their largest and most vehement - that is if the feeling was genuine and spontaneous.

But hey, if you find nothing suspicious in the time it took for protests to happen - put it all down to time for planning - and see no connection between Thaksin's frozen assets and the timing of the protests, then carry on in your belief.

That is historically quite wrong. I have not been only around, but took pictures as well back then (as well as taking pics before that of the PAD in 2006, and pro Thaksin groups camping out in Chatuchak part).

The anti- coup protesters started off quite miniscule, but very soon reached several thousand, and later ten thousand and more protesters. The first groups were the "Anti 19th September Coup network", the "Saturday Voice", "Nocpilap Khao", "24th of June Group", also several groups centering around Community Radio Stations, followed by PTV - the first groups with a large following due to their TRT networks, leading to the founding of the UDD, etc. Some of the groups still exist, other disbanded, but its members still part of the Red Shirts.

As soon as the after coup elections were announced in 2007, the protests ceased, and the UDD, after People Power Party won, ceased protesting. They came out only after the PAD began protesting against the People Power Party government. With brief interuptions they have protested continuously for 5 years now (if you do not count the Thaksin support groups in 2006 camping out in Chatuchak Park).

Initially it took quite some time to build their organization and momentum as the mass of what are today Red Shirts came from non-protest backgrounds, and pre-Thaksin mosty political disinterested sectors of society. Only in late 2008 they began to build a more sophisticated organization, and only after the crackdown in 2009 their organization started to take the shape we see now.

Anyhow, just a small historical correction, i will leave you to further fear and loathing...

[OzMick]

The smallest group in the country is the anti-Thaksinista group. The other two groups of couldnt give a monkeys and Thaksinistas are bigger. The only area where the anti-Thaksiinistas may be in a majority is the south. Whoever gets the couldnt give a monkeys onside wins and at the moment the Thaksinistas have the upper hand there and in this middle group there is a desire to see a deal. That suits Thaksin but it is very hard for the anti-thaksinistas who dont ever want him back which only makes their chances of getting the middle group on side. When only one side will compromise the middle goes to that side. A split just leaves an unhappy south with the entrie rest of the country seeing majorities happy with compromise

"The smallest group in the country is the anti-Thaksinista group."

According to whom? You? And once that statement comes into dispute, the rest is less than credible.

Should we also consider strength of feeling? You think assassination, insurrection or coup is not on the cards? Why would moderates be prepared to hand control of their country to a proven pillager for "peace in out time" when they know that there will be none?

[473geo]

I foresee significant budget allocations being used to entice villages to join the Federation in all regions. Thailand will become divided clearly and officially.

But disunity breaks a fundamental law of nature for an organism, and this will be Thaksin's downfall. You just can't break laws of nature without consequences.

The seeds of Thaksin's destruction are built into his Red Shirt Federation. Surely he must see this or has his desire for power and money blinded him completely? He had better not sell his home in Dubai.

Very difficult to dislodge a government that can legally enhance the lives of it's core support.........why would the government need to divide the country?

I don't think that the government will deliberately divide the country. It will happen, I think, because many people don't like Thaksin, and won't join his Federation.

Thaksin may claim the majority support but I really think time will move past him, the Thai people are now looking at what the government is delivering for them. Thai people are more informed these days, They will vote, as they have, for a government they feel will benefit them the most. If this government is allowed to complete the term, then there will be 'fair' elections again, and I have faith in the intelligence of the Thai people to make a correct choice.

Too many people allow Thaksin to cloud their judgement, although he could be described as a faclitator, I belive the vote at the last election was a vote for change, rather than a vote for Thaksin

But that does not sell newspapers and keep forum discussions busy!!!!

[OzMick]

I was here in those days. If there were any anti-coup protests, they were minuscule, and at a time, when they should have been at their largest and most vehement - that is if the feeling was genuine and spontaneous.

But hey, if you find nothing suspicious in the time it took for protests to happen - put it all down to time for planning - and see no connection between Thaksin's frozen assets and the timing of the protests, then carry on in your belief.

That is historically quite wrong. I have not been only around, but took pictures as well back then (as well as taking pics before that of the PAD in 2006, and pro Thaksin groups camping out in Chatuchak part).

The anti- coup protesters started off quite miniscule, but very soon reached several thousand, and later ten thousand and more protesters. The first groups were the "Anti 19th September Coup network", the "Saturday Voice", "Nocpilap Khao", "24th of June Group", also several groups centering around Community Radio Stations, followed by PTV - the first groups with a large following due to their TRT networks, leading to the founding of the UDD, etc. Some of the groups still exist, other disbanded, but its members still part of the Red Shirts.

As soon as the after coup elections were announced in 2007, the protests ceased, and the UDD, after People Power Party won, ceased protesting. They came out only after the PAD began protesting against the People Power Party government. With brief interuptions they have protested continuously for 5 years now (if you do not count the Thaksin support groups in 2006 camping out in Chatuchak Park).

Initially it took quite some time to build their organization and momentum as the mass of what are today Red Shirts came from non-protest backgrounds, and pre-Thaksin mosty political disinterested sectors of society. Only in late 2008 they began to build a more sophisticated organization, and only after the crackdown in 2009 their organization started to take the shape we see now.

Anyhow, just a small historical correction, i will leave you to further fear and loathing...

Thank you for your input. The numbers that you quote are enlightening - around 10,000 out of a population of circa 68,000,000. Of course at that stage the "democracy schools" were just getting started.

I look at this way - for every person concerned enough to protest, 6,799 didn't bother. I also have to compare PAD supporters at around 100,000 vehement anti-Thaksinists.

[kimamey]

Another "Fear and Loathing" editorial from The Nation regarding Red Shirts, Taksin, et al.

In a democracy, citizens have a right to assembly and to associate with whomever they wish. If Thailand now has a democracy, or at least espousing democratic ideals, then all citizens have these rights. It's just too bad for those who don't like it. Elections, democracy, etc., have consequences. But, I say IF Thailand has a democracy, because it is not clear that enoughThais understand this.

This editorial is just one more self-serving, 'the people be damned," poor sport, bad loser, cry baby, so-on-and-so-forth diatribes from The Nation.

I'm not sure you've actually read this or at least not in a non biased way. It does say this could be good for people if it's used correctly.

The problem is if a minority, and I'm sure it would be a minority use it to intimidate others. I would think it would be uncomfortable for a yellow or non colour in a red village as it would be for a red in a yellow one.

[tlansford]

This is hardly a good reason, though, to demonize an opposition group whose elected government was stolen by a military coup.

An opposition group that didn't protest when their "elected" government was stolen by a military coup in 2006, but rather swung into action years later and by pure coincidence, at a time when Thaksin's court case regarding frozen monies was being decided upon.

to be accurate, the first anti-coup protests were days (not years) after the coup.

Funny, I must have missed that - do you have a link or any supporting evidence of that statement?

I know that you don't normally answer questions but I would still like to know over which part of the military the civilian administration should have more control. Without at least some specifics it seems to be an attitude based on some emotional disturbance rather than reality.

Hi Ozmick, no problem to answer questions. I try to avoid trolling responses which occur often enough.

as for the protests, there is plenty of information on the internet. 15 seconds with google and people will find more links than I can post. - one reason why it surprises me when people claim there were no protests after the coup.

as for military control, look at any other major democracy. I'm familiar with the US, France, and Germany - then the question is "what part of the military is NOT under civilian control?". In all 3 of these cases, it is 100%.

In the USA, if a military commander refused a direct order from the president, he would be court-martialed and thrown in the clink - Americans call it "treason". I am pretty certain that you are also aware of the reports that exactly that happened during the PAD protests under the PPP government.

And finally, no emotional disturbance here... but thanks for the concern.

[nicknostitz]

Thank you for your input. The numbers that you quote are enlightening - around 10,000 out of a population of circa 68,000,000. Of course at that stage the "democracy schools" were just getting started.

I look at this way - for every person concerned enough to protest, 6,799 didn't bother. I also have to compare PAD supporters at around 100,000 vehement anti-Thaksinists.

The PAD had a head start, and certain other advantages.

Sondhi began turning his TV Show into a protest mid/late in late 2005, the PAD was founded in February 2006. Many groups with established protest backgrounds joined the PAD as well at their founding, such as several labor unions, the EGAT protesters, and many NGO's.

The anti-coup protester groups started off without the support of the majority of groups that could mobilize protesters, as these supported mostly the PAD, or kept themselves out of the game then.

The UDD schools were only began in September 2009, that was when the Red Shirts have already reached numbers of protesters that the PAD never reached even in their peak before the coup (after the coup the PAD brought not more than 40 000 people to the streets, then dwindling to 20 000 and less in late 2008. Today the PAD is a spent force. During the last round of protests during the first 6 months the PAD peaked at 3000 protesters, and on average were only a few hundred protesters at Government House. A week ago, on Oct. 7, the PAD had less than 1000 members taking part in the commemoration concert for their dead, and 80% were women in the age group of 50 and above.

Apart from the Red Shirt villages and ongoing UDD mass mobilization, you can see now also more and more small, but quite influential older political protest groups giving up their neutrality (or even former PAD alliance) and joining the Red Shirt movement (not the UDD, but what you can call "Free Red Groups") - as seen in the many events and seminars in universities around the country, such as latest the commemoration event for the Oct. 6, 1976, victims in Thammasat University. This of course has led to further friction in the co-called "October Generation" as many are still allied with the PAD or the Democrats.

There is a lot going on here now, unfortunately insufficiently reported on by the mass media.

[tlansford]

Thanks for this. May I suggest your relative was a bit weak-minded and naive...there are thugs like this in every political crowd, even the government and the military.

Your relative should have moved on up the line in order to get the ID returned, rather than staying on for additional weeks or months. I sympathize with this scenario but somehow I find it hard to believe in full.

Perhaps I'm being naive but I also doubt that staying and participating for an extended period was the only option remaining for your relative.

In the grander scheme, yes, there are thugs like this in every crowd - even the US has them now during "Occupy Wall Street". There are lots of people who go to those things with the primary purpose of venting their cruelty, with the political ideas being secondary or simply the 'kindling wood' for inflaming their cruelty. Sounds like your relative met some of those folks.

This is hardly a good reason, though, to demonize an opposition group whose elected government was stolen by a military coup.

It is possible to be intolerant and right, but it is not possible to be intolerant and a democracy.

Red shirt villages are a living oxymoron the same as "jumbo shrimp" and "military intelligence" are verbal oxymorons. This government sactioned and increasing polarization is scary. I fear for the country and I fear for the very people whose niavete is being used to enslave themselves.

This can only happen because there's a huge difference between what is being said and what is being done. If I could rely on the words alone, I, too would be a staunch Red Shirt. But I have been here long enough to see the actions. I was there when things happened, and I am now listening to the reports of those events and I can see that there is very little connection. The Red Shirt leaders talk a good story, but they live a different one.

I have a relative who joined the red shirt Bangkok rallies. He was politically disinterested, but temporarily unemployed due to the season. He planned on taking the free bus to Bangkok, spending a few days having a good time, and making some money. What could be wrong with that? Weeks later when he asked for his identity card back so he could go home to his family, he was told that if he failed to show up for his daily pay in the evening, his family would all be killed. The red leaders were convincing enough that my relative continued with them and was still there when the army arrived. The leaders, however, were not.

Talk is cheap, and the political leaders evidently feel the gullible are worth about the same. Organizing into permanent polarized settlements is a dangerous escalation.

"......... an opposition group whose elected government was stolen by a military coup."

I hate to tell you this, but there was once a man named Samak. There is also a lady named yingluk. Both were elected since the coup. But at the time of the coup, the PM's mandate had expired. Please take this into consideration before making remarks like the above.

And there was also a man named abhisit, etc, etc, I suspect that most are aware of the post-coup political timeline of events. But how does that change Jawnie's point?

He makes a point so often overlooked by those who want to demon-ize groups they don't agree with. It's a valid point (IMO). So far in the Red/Yellow/Blue/Pink shirt panorama, there's been violence coming from every side. There has been violence propagated by the sitting gov'ts as well. Does that nullify the politics proposed by these groups & govts? Not in my opinion.

[OzMick]

Hi Ozmick, no problem to answer questions. I try to avoid trolling responses which occur often enough.

as for the protests, there is plenty of information on the internet. 15 seconds with google and people will find more links than I can post. - one reason why it surprises me when people claim there were no protests after the coup.

as for military control, look at any other major democracy. I'm familiar with the US, France, and Germany - then the question is "what part of the military is NOT under civilian control?". In all 3 of these cases, it is 100%.

In the USA, if a military commander refused a direct order from the president, he would be court-martialed and thrown in the clink - Americans call it "treason". I am pretty certain that you are also aware of the reports that exactly that happened during the PAD protests under the PPP government.

And finally, no emotional disturbance here... but thanks for the concern.

You are singularly misinformed.

"Commissioned officers are recommended for promotion by their commanders, and are selected by centralize (service-wide) promotion boards, who make promotion determinations based upon the officers' promotion records." http://usmilitary.about.com/od/promotions/l/blofficerprom.htm

Without going to europe, in the US politicians have no control over military promotions - which makes 100% look pretty shaky. This is the main concern in Thailand, or did you think the BIL got to be CoP by his outstanding merit.

In the US, the Pres is CIC. That is NOT the case in most countries, and in Thailand the military swears allegiance to King and Nation, not some petty politician who may well be gone in a few years.

It might also surprise you to learn that career military officers consider themselves to be men of honour; it is quite possible they are offended to see their country being pillaged by criminals who don't even bother to conceal their criminal actions, and refuse to act when civilians similarly outraged engage in peaceful protest. They will however respond if "peaceful protesters" decide to bring their weapons to town.

I am quite familiar with the Pavlovian dog twitches that some people display in regard to anything military, usually without logical basis.

Given Nick's numbers, I understand why I missed them. Chiang Mai, I'd guess.

[h90]

Hi Ozmick, no problem to answer questions. I try to avoid trolling responses which occur often enough.

as for the protests, there is plenty of information on the internet. 15 seconds with google and people will find more links than I can post. - one reason why it surprises me when people claim there were no protests after the coup.

as for military control, look at any other major democracy. I'm familiar with the US, France, and Germany - then the question is "what part of the military is NOT under civilian control?". In all 3 of these cases, it is 100%.

In the USA, if a military commander refused a direct order from the president, he would be court-martialed and thrown in the clink - Americans call it "treason". I am pretty certain that you are also aware of the reports that exactly that happened during the PAD protests under the PPP government.

And finally, no emotional disturbance here... but thanks for the concern.

And if in USA a military commander would have refused a direct order, 1.5 Million people would still live.

In Thailand the military swear the oath on protecting the King, country and religion. They don't swear on being a tools of the premier, which is the right thing specially in the current political situation.

By the way I recall in the Austrian military we got told again and again that it is our duty to refuse unlawful orders and law also includes international laws, Geneva convention (spelling???). Based on Austrian laws a military commander would have to refuse an order to conquer Iraq, for example.

[OzMick]

Thanks for this. May I suggest your relative was a bit weak-minded and naive...there are thugs like this in every political crowd, even the government and the military.

Your relative should have moved on up the line in order to get the ID returned, rather than staying on for additional weeks or months. I sympathize with this scenario but somehow I find it hard to believe in full.

Perhaps I'm being naive but I also doubt that staying and participating for an extended period was the only option remaining for your relative.

In the grander scheme, yes, there are thugs like this in every crowd - even the US has them now during "Occupy Wall Street". There are lots of people who go to those things with the primary purpose of venting their cruelty, with the political ideas being secondary or simply the 'kindling wood' for inflaming their cruelty. Sounds like your relative met some of those folks.

This is hardly a good reason, though, to demonize an opposition group whose elected government was stolen by a military coup.

It is possible to be intolerant and right, but it is not possible to be intolerant and a democracy.

Red shirt villages are a living oxymoron the same as "jumbo shrimp" and "military intelligence" are verbal oxymorons. This government sactioned and increasing polarization is scary. I fear for the country and I fear for the very people whose niavete is being used to enslave themselves.

This can only happen because there's a huge difference between what is being said and what is being done. If I could rely on the words alone, I, too would be a staunch Red Shirt. But I have been here long enough to see the actions. I was there when things happened, and I am now listening to the reports of those events and I can see that there is very little connection. The Red Shirt leaders talk a good story, but they live a different one.

I have a relative who joined the red shirt Bangkok rallies. He was politically disinterested, but temporarily unemployed due to the season. He planned on taking the free bus to Bangkok, spending a few days having a good time, and making some money. What could be wrong with that? Weeks later when he asked for his identity card back so he could go home to his family, he was told that if he failed to show up for his daily pay in the evening, his family would all be killed. The red leaders were convincing enough that my relative continued with them and was still there when the army arrived. The leaders, however, were not.

Talk is cheap, and the political leaders evidently feel the gullible are worth about the same. Organizing into permanent polarized settlements is a dangerous escalation.

"......... an opposition group whose elected government was stolen by a military coup."

I hate to tell you this, but there was once a man named Samak. There is also a lady named yingluk. Both were elected since the coup. But at the time of the coup, the PM's mandate had expired. Please take this into consideration before making remarks like the above.

And there was also a man named abhisit, etc, etc, I suspect that most are aware of the post-coup political timeline of events. But how does that change Jawnie's point?

He makes a point so often overlooked by those who want to demon-ize groups they don't agree with. It's a valid point (IMO). So far in the Red/Yellow/Blue/Pink shirt panorama, there's been violence coming from every side. There has been violence propagated by the sitting gov'ts as well. Does that nullify the politics proposed by these groups & govts? Not in my opinion.

Because it is simply not true, a falsification, a distortion of truth, a bloody LIE.

A government with an expired mandate was ejected by the coup, they were re-elected and lost power by a parliamentary vote after they were convicted of offering bribes.

You might also wish to consider the QUANTITY of violence. With PAD it existed but minimally. The UDD came to BKK preaching violence, M-79 attacks preceded any military involvement, and the military confrontation was initiated by them in a manner sure to get a violent response.

[nicknostitz]

By the way I recall in the Austrian military we got told again and again that it is our duty to refuse unlawful orders and law also includes international laws, Geneva convention (spelling???). Based on Austrian laws a military commander would have to refuse an order to conquer Iraq, for example.

And unfortunately the idea of unlawful orders or adherence to the the Geneva Convention are a almost completely foreign concept in the Thai military, which anybody who has ever been with the Thai military, especially with combat units, will be aware off.

[animatic]

... Solution......... raise the standard of living

AND

Give Thaksin a 'bit' part, with heavy penalties for stepping too far into the limelight

Agreed to raise the living standard which essentially means removed all the politicians to get their sticky fingers out of every pie.

Thaksin has NEVER been one to take a bit part in anything.

Megalomaniacs can never take a back seat.

Just seeing what lengths he has gone to to grab back power and that makes it quite clear.

The acceptable solution at the moment would be to allow Thaksin back to the table as an equal, but no more than that. I expect the power brokers are evaluating this possibilty.......can be achieved? I don't know......he is outplaying them at the moment

Or they could shoot him.

And observation;

based on world history and the life trajectories of various despots, despots returning for round two and proto despots. Tinpot little dictators world wide seem to get theirs much sooner in the last few years of un-controlled free communications that in the past. There is only so much you can control communications to your advantage.

If I were him, I would ALWAYS have; a fully fueled plane and armored limo very close by, himself anywhere in Thailand, should he return. There are only so many times you can tread on toes in jackboots before the victims fight back. He has given no reasen to be trusted, and a laundry list of broken promises vis a vis his behavior. It is easy to extrapolate that a clock is ticking down on him.