Kowtow

[kerryk]

Yeah, these often low intelligence, sometimes bullying officers do indeed have massive power over many applicants who actually do DESERVE to be respected but shouldn't expect it ...

I like the strong willed women in officers uniforms. If I have to grovel a bit it's OK. Even better if they wear boots. Anyone ever given a female officer at immigration a riding crop?

[Jingthing]

Yeah, these often low intelligence, sometimes bullying officers do indeed have massive power over many applicants who actually do DESERVE to be respected but shouldn't expect it ...

I like the strong willed women in officers uniforms. If I have to grovel a bit it's OK. Even better if they wear boots. Anyone ever given a female officer at immigration a riding crop?

A new fetishist business opportunity?

I said two copies! Bend over!

[StreetCowboy]

... O.K JOCK so now we do know you have limits

To be honest, our bigotry would be more credible if we had fewer English friends and acquaintances... anyway, regardless of their nationality, colour and creed, I hope I accord them he respect that I ought, whether they deserve it or not. How we treat others is about us, not them.

SC

[endure]

... O.K JOCK so now we do know you have limits

How we treat others is about us, not them.

(and I'm English).

[philw]

Yeah, these often low intelligence, sometimes bullying officers do indeed have massive power over many applicants who actually do DESERVE to be respected but shouldn't expect it ...

I like the strong willed women in officers uniforms. If I have to grovel a bit it's OK. Even better if they wear boots. Anyone ever given a female officer at immigration a riding crop?

A new fetishist business opportunity?

I said two copies! Bend over!

Would that be a fake or enthusiastic bend over ?????

It's rhetorical, please don't answer.

[katana]

I want something from them very valuable to me. They have the power to say yes or no. Of course, I SHOW (fake) respect to them.

Agree. They have the power to make things difficult should they wish.

It's just a game to play to get in and out quickly.

[mca]

A quick wai and greeting when sitting at the officers desk and another on leaving with a thank you suffices for me. Common social courtesy. I don't particularly care if the officer in question respects me or not. They're not my friend, they're not my family, they're nothing to me as I am to them. So what if they don't return the wai or whatever? I've got enough Thai friends and acquaintances of infinitely higher social standing than an immi desk jockey who genuinely like me and offer me the same courtesies as I give them. They're the ones who matter to me.

[ludditeman]

A quick wai and greeting when sitting at the officers desk and another on leaving with a thank you suffices for me. Common social courtesy. I don't particularly care if the officer in question respects me or not. They're not my friend, they're not my family, they're nothing to me as I am to them. So what if they don't return the wai or whatever? I've got enough Thai friends and acquaintances of infinitely higher social standing than an immi desk jockey who genuinely like me and offer me the same courtesies as I give them. They're the ones who matter to me.

Not common courtesy at all, unless you don't understand the wai.

Lower status person wais first, always funny when a foreigner wais a waitress or salesperson first.

Waitress or salesperson must immediately assume foreigner is a toilet cleaner back home.

I just assume they are a bit thick not to understand the system.

[Ulysses G.]

Most Thais understand very well that most foreigners do not understand the system and most Thais are very non-judgmental about it.

[uptheos]

Not common courtesy at all, unless you don't understand the wai.

Lower status person wais first, always funny when a foreigner wais a waitress or salesperson first.

Waitress or salesperson must immediately assume foreigner is a toilet cleaner back home.

I just assume they are a bit thick not to understand the system.

I don't think they are thick at all.

Lot's of foreigners come on holiday probably knowing the wai, but not all the crap involved with the ridiculous Thai hierarchical ladder.

When they use the wai it's not out of ignorance, it's just trying to be polite, in the best way they understand.

I bet you did it when you first came here........no let me guess, you read The Book of Thai Social Etiquette first as opposed to Best Bars to Get Laid In.

[mca]

A quick wai and greeting when sitting at the officers desk and another on leaving with a thank you suffices for me. Common social courtesy. I don't particularly care if the officer in question respects me or not. They're not my friend, they're not my family, they're nothing to me as I am to them. So what if they don't return the wai or whatever? I've got enough Thai friends and acquaintances of infinitely higher social standing than an immi desk jockey who genuinely like me and offer me the same courtesies as I give them. They're the ones who matter to me.

Not common courtesy at all, unless you don't understand the wai.

Lower status person wais first, always funny when a foreigner wais a waitress or salesperson first.

Waitress or salesperson must immediately assume foreigner is a toilet cleaner back home.

I just assume they are a bit thick not to understand the system.

Common social courtesy on my part. After nearly 2 decades here there's not a lot I need being taught on the subtle nuances of Thai culture. Unlike some I actually made an effort to integrate into the society I was going to live in. Shocker huh? Like I said, I couldn't care less if the officer thinks he superior, inferior or that all foreigners are slightly lower than dog shit on his shoes. If some officer in gets a kick out of lording it over me the one time a year for an hour or so I have to extend then whatever. If I throw him a perfunctory wai and he or she thinks they're King of Turd Mountain because of it then I'm not going to be losing any sleep over it. Some low ranking immi cop is not even on my social radar the rest of my life.

Of course I'll bow to your superior set in stone knowledge regarding the wai. If you send me your email address I'll pass it on to my Thai neighbour ( a lovely bloke who's some specialist at KK hospital ) because although being older than me and of a "higher status" he always throws the wai in first when he sees me over the fence. I'll mention to him he's a bit thick not understanding his own culture but there's this western guy on TVF willing to put him straight.

Don't tell me. You'd wai a kid only on pain of death right?

[Heng]

It's all a simple (and common) discrepancy between how one visualizes oneself and how one actually is. Like thinking you're the best at whatever subject... until the test scores come out. In this case thinking that you are at an nth level in whatever hierarchy (and that you shouldn't need to jump through these type of hoops) only to find that some desk clerk controls your destiny.

Cowards die many times before their deaths.

True, but in this case, it's not as dire... because win or lose one typically just has to go get more copies of this or that. Worst case, you have to buy a plane ticket.

[ludditeman]

Don't tell me. You'd wai a kid only on pain of death right?

What part of the word "FIRST" don't you understand?

If you wanted to integrate into Thai society, one would have thought it worth the effort to learn the rules.

You neighbor has assumed the rich foreigner next door to be of higher social status, not an unreasonable assumption on his part.

[h90]

No need really to dress for 90 day reports, at least in Pattaya. Shorts, t-shirt, and sandals would be fine. But I wouldn't dress shockingly bad either. However, if there was something dodgy about your report, back to the kowtow mode.

I wear long trousers once a year to apply for an extension on the visa - never for the 90 day reports. I bring my accountant and say absolutely nothing unless asked and try to look as happy to be there as I can manage. It has worked so far.

and what do you wear when you work, when you go in the supermarket?

Maybe a uniform. A lot of guys in Thailand like uniforms. I wear one every chance I get.

I like women in that nice Thai uniforms, they look so GDR!

I am straight but I can imagine that every gay loves the police-uniforms

[andrew55]

Most Thais understand very well that most foreigners do not understand the system and most Thais are very non-judgmental about it.

I also find that Thais recognise that farang just don't know any better, although getting it correct is noted and appreciated.

At the risk of sounding pedantic I believe that kowtowing involves touching your forehead to the ground so I assume we are talking about a wai which is polite in the correct place and time. I think a wai to an immigration official would be inappropriate unless they do to you. If you do wai to them they are unlikely to return it making one seem a bit silly. A nod of the head on approaching the counter is polite and will usually be returned.

It can be tough to know when and how to wai. Thais defer to seniority. This may as simple as the other party being older. My most deferrential wai is for the grandmother, next other old people (regardless of wealth). This wai is always returned fully and seems to make all comfortable. When the 16yo at KFC wais you no reply is necessary but a smile goes a long way. These examples are black and white. An airline hostess greeting you onboard may be in the grey zone. I nod politely in reply but did notice a group of 4 Thai business men flying class and they gave a proper wai in return. I liked that. Thais use a word that comes from 'civilised' to talk about good behaviour. Many farang are not civilised in the eyes of a Thai, but they will accept that we know no better.

[mca]

Don't tell me. You'd wai a kid only on pain of death right?

What part of the word "FIRST" don't you understand?

If you wanted to integrate into Thai society, one would have thought it worth the effort to learn the rules.

You neighbor has as i sumed the rich foreigner next door to be of higher social status, not an unreasonable assumption on his part.

considering he's a heart specialist at the main hospital in kk, his house is abut 3 times bigger than mine,he drives a new benz and he's referred to as "Ajarn" by all and sundry one would think it's highly unlikely looking at my shorts wearing, birdy drinkin scruffy arse of a morning.

[MiG16]

One could write a book about the 'wai'

But end of the day, it's not 'wrong' who initiates

It does make me uncomfortable when someone older than me 'wai' me first though

They do it for a number of reasons - I'm bringing them business, I am their boss of some sort, or I am simply helping them

Whatever their reason, a profuse return wai and telling them not to wai me is my response.

Security guards and waitresses are a bit harder to deal with. But after a few years I learn to tell myself it has now become more of a basic greeting and not necessarily linked to age - at least in the business setting.

As you guys would in your own culture I'm sure? Say hello to anyone who enters your place of work? Or that u fo meet? I'd u want them to give u business u make that little bit of gesture

Amongst friends and family - the original way applies.

[jimbeam1]

Groveling to Johnny foreigner is just not done old boy!

You know, no matter where I travel in this world, it appears to be full of foreigners. What are you?

jb1

[Soutpeel]

Most Thais understand very well that most foreigners do not understand the system and most Thais are very non-judgmental about it.

I also find that Thais recognise that farang just don't know any better, although getting it correct is noted and appreciated.

At the risk of sounding pedantic I believe that kowtowing involves touching your forehead to the ground so I assume we are talking about a wai which is polite in the correct place and time. I think a wai to an immigration official would be inappropriate unless they do to you. If you do wai to them they are unlikely to return it making one seem a bit silly. A nod of the head on approaching the counter is polite and will usually be returned.

It can be tough to know when and how to wai. Thais defer to seniority. This may as simple as the other party being older. My most deferrential wai is for the grandmother, next other old people (regardless of wealth). This wai is always returned fully and seems to make all comfortable. When the 16yo at KFC wais you no reply is necessary but a smile goes a long way. These examples are black and white. An airline hostess greeting you onboard may be in the grey zone. I nod politely in reply but did notice a group of 4 Thai business men flying class and they gave a proper wai in return. I liked that. Thais use a word that comes from 'civilised' to talk about good behaviour. Many farang are not civilised in the eyes of a Thai, but they will accept that we know no better.

Seems this has turned into how to Wai debate.... thread number 34578, when is the arguement on Sin Sot going to start. ?

[StreetCowboy]

...Seems this has turned into how to Wai debate.... thread number 34578, when is the arguement on Sin Sot going to start. ?

I struggle with polite behaviour in my own culture, let alone any other. Normally, whenever I meet a uniformed servant of the crown, I greet them in English with a polite "Good morning" or "...afternoon" as appropriate to the time of day, confident that this is less likely to have offensive and vulgar double-meanings than my best efforts at Thai might give rise to. I offer apolite smile, and refrain from asking which foot he kicks with. I think most Thais that come, through the misfortune of their place in the machinery of state, into contact with farang, realise that we do things differently than the norm in these parts, and expect such. If God had wanted us to look like Thais, he'd have made us slighter and swarthier, and less furry.

SC

EDIT: As they might say round my way

"Wai?"

"Fitfernoferlike?"

[Soutpeel]

...Seems this has turned into how to Wai debate.... thread number 34578, when is the arguement on Sin Sot going to start. ?

I struggle with polite behaviour in my own culture, let alone any other. Normally, whenever I meet a uniformed servant of the crown, I greet them in English with a polite "Good morning" or "...afternoon" as appropriate to the time of day, confident that this is less likely to have offensive and vulgar double-meanings than my best efforts at Thai might give rise to. I offer apolite smile, and refrain from asking which foot he kicks with. I think most Thais that come, through the misfortune of their place in the machinery of state, into contact with farang, realise that we do things differently than the norm in these parts, and expect such. If God had wanted us to look like Thais, he'd have made us slighter and swarthier, and less furry.

SC

EDIT: As they might say round my way

"Wai?"

"Fitfernoferlike?"

Very well put....

[StreetCowboy]

...

EDIT: As they might say round my way

"Wai?"

"Fitfernoferlike?"

Very well put....

Yefi peeterheed?

[andrew55]

Most Thais understand very well that most foreigners do not understand the system and most Thais are very non-judgmental about it.

I also find that Thais recognise that farang just don't know any better, although getting it correct is noted and appreciated.

At the risk of sounding pedantic I believe that kowtowing involves touching your forehead to the ground so I assume we are talking about a wai which is polite in the correct place and time. I think a wai to an immigration official would be inappropriate unless they do to you. If you do wai to them they are unlikely to return it making one seem a bit silly. A nod of the head on approaching the counter is polite and will usually be returned.

It can be tough to know when and how to wai. Thais defer to seniority. This may as simple as the other party being older. My most deferrential wai is for the grandmother, next other old people (regardless of wealth). This wai is always returned fully and seems to make all comfortable. When the 16yo at KFC wais you no reply is necessary but a smile goes a long way. These examples are black and white. An airline hostess greeting you onboard may be in the grey zone. I nod politely in reply but did notice a group of 4 Thai business men flying class and they gave a proper wai in return. I liked that. Thais use a word that comes from 'civilised' to talk about good behaviour. Many farang are not civilised in the eyes of a Thai, but they will accept that we know no better.

Seems this has turned into how to Wai debate.... thread number 34578, when is the arguement on Sin Sot going to start. ?

What's 'Sin Sot'?

[Soutpeel]

Most Thais understand very well that most foreigners do not understand the system and most Thais are very non-judgmental about it.

I also find that Thais recognise that farang just don't know any better, although getting it correct is noted and appreciated.

At the risk of sounding pedantic I believe that kowtowing involves touching your forehead to the ground so I assume we are talking about a wai which is polite in the correct place and time. I think a wai to an immigration official would be inappropriate unless they do to you. If you do wai to them they are unlikely to return it making one seem a bit silly. A nod of the head on approaching the counter is polite and will usually be returned.

It can be tough to know when and how to wai. Thais defer to seniority. This may as simple as the other party being older. My most deferrential wai is for the grandmother, next other old people (regardless of wealth). This wai is always returned fully and seems to make all comfortable. When the 16yo at KFC wais you no reply is necessary but a smile goes a long way. These examples are black and white. An airline hostess greeting you onboard may be in the grey zone. I nod politely in reply but did notice a group of 4 Thai business men flying class and they gave a proper wai in return. I liked that. Thais use a word that comes from 'civilised' to talk about good behaviour. Many farang are not civilised in the eyes of a Thai, but they will accept that we know no better.

Seems this has turned into how to Wai debate.... thread number 34578, when is the arguement on Sin Sot going to start. ?

What's 'Sin Sot'?

The TV "search" function is your friend...

[NanLaew]

...

EDIT: As they might say round my way

"Wai?"

"Fitfernoferlike?"

Very well put....

Yefi peeterheed?

Ori broch?

[wandrinstar]

Sin Sot is what fools pay Bar Girls parents , daft as a Wai..

[andrew55]

Sin Sot is what fools pay Bar Girls parents , daft as a Wai..

Looks like soutpeel got his answer.

Wish there was a 'smack my forehead' smiley.

[doggie888888]

I want something from them very valuable to me. They have the power to say yes or no. Of course, I SHOW (fake) respect to them.

Agree. They have the power to make things difficult should they wish.

It's just a game to play to get in and out quickly.

I can smile sweetly and appear most sincere but all the time I am thinking "you are such a useless piece of <deleted>". Personally, I have found it a most useful skill for living in Thailand.

[h90]

One could write a book about the 'wai'

But end of the day, it's not 'wrong' who initiates

It does make me uncomfortable when someone older than me 'wai' me first though

They do it for a number of reasons - I'm bringing them business, I am their boss of some sort, or I am simply helping them

Whatever their reason, a profuse return wai and telling them not to wai me is my response.

Security guards and waitresses are a bit harder to deal with. But after a few years I learn to tell myself it has now become more of a basic greeting and not necessarily linked to age - at least in the business setting.

As you guys would in your own culture I'm sure? Say hello to anyone who enters your place of work? Or that u fo meet? I'd u want them to give u business u make that little bit of gesture

Amongst friends and family - the original way applies.

I recall I was in Hat Yai. Gen Prem (yes the adviser of HMK) came to the airport without security. All the Thais disappeared in shops/toilets whatever. My explained because no one know who to do formal correct.

I kept sitting looking friendly, Prem passed and as I was the only one here, he waved, smiled and said cheerful "HELLO". I waved back and "HELLO" to him.

Point is: signal friendliness, if and how to wai is not that important.

[nontabury]

I want something from them very valuable to me. They have the power to say yes or no. Of course, I SHOW (fake) respect to them.

Agree. They have the power to make things difficult should they wish.

It's just a game to play to get in and out quickly.

I can smile sweetly and appear most sincere but all the time I am thinking "you are such a useless piece of <deleted>". Personally, I have found it a most useful skill for living in Thailand.

Yes, I think that is the best attitude to take