Floods Highlight Again The Worst Of Our Politics: Thai Opinion

[webfact]

EDITORIAL

Floods highlight again the worst of our politics

The Nation

Politicisation continues even as the country is mired in crisis; we cannot plan for the future without mutual understanding and cooperation

Bangkok has become not only the last front in the battle against surging flood waters, but also a big question mark for future mapping of state policies. The debate on how far the government should go to protect the capital has been largely politicised at present, which is sad, but somewhat understandable. When a crisis reaches its climax, self-interests naturally come to the fore. This debate, however, needs to be addressed with a totally open mind after the waters recede.

The crux of the issue will remain the same. The main question is how fair it is to spend a lot of the national budget to save Bangkok while "pushing the burden" on to others.

This is not a simple question. Bangkok is the centre of government and business and commerce. If the provinces are Thailand's backbone, Bangkok can call itself the brain. How can a balance be struck about the importance of both? How can we achieve such a balance without allowing politics to get in the way?

What has happened over the past few days proves how difficult it is to leave politics out of the Bangkok debate. At the national level, Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra and her Pheu Thai Party have stood to lose high stakes. The ruling camp has been desperate in its rearguard battle against the floods, after failing to save several provinces from the lower North to the Central region. Its popularity has been plunging, with Yingluck's leadership ability and administrative skills called into serious question.

If Yingluck loses the battle to save Bangkok, there will most likely be a crisis of confidence. That, especially in the Thai political context, cannot be allowed to happen.

In the meantime, the other group trying to save Bangkok is the opposition Democrat Party. Bangkok Governor MR Sukhumbhand Paribatra can help maintain the Democrats' political dominance in the capital if the city is saved and he is perceived to be the man to whom the credit should go. And not only that, Sukhumbhand's own political future is also on the line here.

How much the political dogfight between the government and opposition has contributed to the worsening of the flood crisis cannot yet be discerned with any accuracy. A lot of people, however, believe that the conflicts have affected key decisions on when and how water should be allowed to pass through the capital. The conflicts, which have been in plain sight at times, have also caused extreme stress to people already facing anxiety over the possibility of being hit by flooding.

As long as the political divide continues, the "privilege" of Bangkok will remain a very thorny issue. What has happened during this flood crisis has amplified the need to cut down on that privilege, not by taking it away from Bangkokians, but by raising standards in the other provinces. To achieve that, we need to end divisive politics in which some politicians are portrayed as caring more about rural people than others. This divisive political battle, undeniably, has led to a rush to "please" rural voters, but we will never get a long-lasting solution out of it.

"Contempt" towards Thailand's poor is something cooked up for political purpose. The danger is, if we hear about something for long enough, we may start to believe it. The greater danger is, when enough people believe it, mutual hatred will become prevalent in society.

The social equity gap between Bangkok and rural areas does certainly exist, but promoting hatred can never narrow it. Angry mobs threatening to bring down Bangkok's flood barriers are solid proof that this is an issue that can't be addressed by emotions.

Only when both sides truly recognise each other and seek to co-exist peacefully can efforts really begin to decentralise power and wealth. Future policies concerning Bangkok and rural areas must be based on real understanding of their connections and gaps, not on politics by those citing ideologies that even they don't really hold dear.

-- The Nation 2011-11-01

[Moruya]

You could also argue that Sukumband had prepared Bangkok's defenses long before the Government had woken up and smelled the coffee.

[jayboy]

Whether contempt for Thailand's poor is something "cooked up" for political reasons is a matter of opinion.Many with long experience of certain Bangkok attitudes would take a different view.Contempt does not always reveal itself in hatred (though it sometimes does for example at PAD rallies and on the social media).More often it is a kind of half witted patronising on the lines rural people are uneducated, stupid, bribable etc etc.

The editorial writer here is I think in error in assuming that the resolution of the social equity problem will be resolved by the established order.History tells us that it rarely works like that.The rural and urban poor majority will eventually impose their own solution.The challenge for the established order is to retreat gracefully and preserve as much of their wealth and power as new circumstances permit.It's been done before in other countries.Although things are slowly changing the established order in Thailand has limited understanding of enlightened self interest.Let's hope that changes because I don't want to be at the mercy of mob rule any more than they do.

Edited November 1, 2011 by jayboy

[virtualtraveller]

THis is bound to be a contentious argument, it's at the heart of Thailand's troubles, and the fact that flooding inundated Bangkok and the poorer suburbs (and fatefully, those voting Red) were sacrificed first makes it all look even more sinister. But there are sensible, non political reasons for this, which the poor may not understand.

To assume that this is an entirely lopsided country where the will of the rural electoral masses, and their aspirations, are defied by a Bangkok elite is wrong. For one, most of Bangkok's voters are emerging middle class, with rural poor roots, and their opinion at the polls is far more reliable since they are better informed and less inclined to 'financial' influence. They pay most of this country's taxes, and though they benefit from a cheap labour force and resulting affordable lifestyle, they generally put up with a more stressful environment and put in an honest day's work, being productive and making sound decisions.

On a macro scale, saving the centre of Bangkok (where even an inch of water disrupts everything commercial - and I'm not talking shopping malls here) is far less costly (in terms of damage and lost opportunity), than adding an extra half meter and few days of water submersion in selected suburbs). Furthermore, that was the course of action taken based on flooding estimates, and to suddenly change tack and let everything flow through the entire city, ultimately means a lose-lose scenario, rather than a win-lose.

There will no doubt be plenty of debate afterwards, with mixed opinion on which side won or lost the reputation war, but ultimately if there was an election next week I doubt Puea Thai would lose it, even if they had made a complete hash of the flooding. They have the privilege of being the govt therefore they must be prepared to take the heat when it comes to dissatisfaction in the handling of the relief plans.

[toenail]

Though this is the"21st Century" with Thais having access to the latest cell phone gadget , i-Pad, lap top computer, or satellite TV,--progress is not going to be made in this country until the MAJORITY of the young people (future voters and career people) have an up to date quality education that gets them independently thinking and working out problems for themselves. The majority will easily be "stuck" in the low income bracket and continue to be influenced by "bribes when voting or government handouts as long as they remain stuck in this rut - lacking the skill to think for themselves.

[jayboy]

THis is bound to be a contentious argument, it's at the heart of Thailand's troubles, and the fact that flooding inundated Bangkok and the poorer suburbs (and fatefully, those voting Red) were sacrificed first makes it all look even more sinister. But there are sensible, non political reasons for this, which the poor may not understand.

To assume that this is an entirely lopsided country where the will of the rural electoral masses, and their aspirations, are defied by a Bangkok elite is wrong. For one, most of Bangkok's voters are emerging middle class, with rural poor roots, and their opinion at the polls is far more reliable since they are better informed and less inclined to 'financial' influence. They pay most of this country's taxes, and though they benefit from a cheap labour force and resulting affordable lifestyle, they generally put up with a more stressful environment and put in an honest day's work, being productive and making sound decisions.

On a macro scale, saving the centre of Bangkok (where even an inch of water disrupts everything commercial - and I'm not talking shopping malls here) is far less costly (in terms of damage and lost opportunity), than adding an extra half meter and few days of water submersion in selected suburbs). Furthermore, that was the course of action taken based on flooding estimates, and to suddenly change tack and let everything flow through the entire city, ultimately means a lose-lose scenario, rather than a win-lose.

There will no doubt be plenty of debate afterwards, with mixed opinion on which side won or lost the reputation war, but ultimately if there was an election next week I doubt Puea Thai would lose it, even if they had made a complete hash of the flooding. They have the privilege of being the govt therefore they must be prepared to take the heat when it comes to dissatisfaction in the handling of the relief plans.

Bizarre post rather confirming my earlier comments.

1.Why should the poor be any less able than anybody else to understand decisions made in connection with the flooding?

2.Yes many of Bangkok's residents have rural connections.That's part of the reason why nearly 50% voted for PTP.

3.The vital industrial estates are mainly in the flooded outskirts.You may not be talking shopping malls but I can assure you they come into the picture.

4.If an election was held tomorrow, I believe PTP would increase its majority.

5.With respect your comments on the more stressful environment of affluent city dwellers are comically absurd.Put the affluent urbanites in an Isaan dust bowl as a rice farmer and see how stressed they are.More seriously your naive assumption of a idyllic rural life is simply incorrect.

6.Your comments on urban voters not being susceptible to financial influence are doubly wrong, firstly because vote buying hasn't had a significant influence but secondly and more importantly Bangkok votes have already been influenced financially - given the skewed allocation of resources(health, education, infrastructure etc) towards the capital.

[chainarong]

In times like this you all need to pull together, be one country , the best thing a politician can do is shutup ,let the people who are intrusted to carry out the management of the crisis to get on with it.any politician opening its big mouth should be sacked from the party .Don't cha just love it.

[khaowong1]

Though this is the"21st Century" with Thais having access to the latest cell phone gadget , i-Pad, lap top computer, or satellite TV,--progress is not going to be made in this country until the MAJORITY of the young people (future voters and career people) have an up to date quality education that gets them independently thinking and working out problems for themselves. The majority will easily be "stuck" in the low income bracket and continue to be influenced by "bribes when voting or government handouts as long as they remain stuck in this rut - lacking the skill to think for themselves.

You are correct. This was also a problem in England and the US. Until the "country rubes" got themselves educated, the big city movers and shakers run rough shod all over their country cousins.

[hammered]

Whether contempt for Thailand's poor is something "cooked up" for political reasons is a matter of opinion.Many with long experience of certain Bangkok attitudes would take a different view.Contempt does not always reveal itself in hatred (though it sometimes does for example at PAD rallies and on the social media).More often it is a kind of half witted patronising on the lines rural people are uneducated, stupid, bribable etc etc.

The editorial writer here is I think in error in assuming that the resolution of the social equity problem will be resolved by the established order.History tells us that it rarely works like that.The rural and urban poor majority will eventually impose their own solution.The challenge for the established order is to retreat gracefully and preserve as much of their wealth and power as new circumstances permit.It's been done before in other countries.Although things are slowly changing the established order in Thailand has limited understanding of enlightened self interest.Let's hope that changes because I don't want to be at the mercy of mob rule any more than they do.

A very astute comment. The poor are now rejecting the established order and their party at every opportunity. The whole notion of a untied country is probably over now too with a divided country along increasingly class and wealth lines with differences settled at the ballot box as with other class divided countries through history is the likely new model. Things arent going back to the way they were however much certain people want that. Lets hope enough of the exisitng elite recognize they cant resist the change and things go as you suggest.

[hammered]

THis is bound to be a contentious argument, it's at the heart of Thailand's troubles, and the fact that flooding inundated Bangkok and the poorer suburbs (and fatefully, those voting Red) were sacrificed first makes it all look even more sinister. But there are sensible, non political reasons for this, which the poor may not understand.

To assume that this is an entirely lopsided country where the will of the rural electoral masses, and their aspirations, are defied by a Bangkok elite is wrong. For one, most of Bangkok's voters are emerging middle class, with rural poor roots, and their opinion at the polls is far more reliable since they are better informed and less inclined to 'financial' influence. They pay most of this country's taxes, and though they benefit from a cheap labour force and resulting affordable lifestyle, they generally put up with a more stressful environment and put in an honest day's work, being productive and making sound decisions.

On a macro scale, saving the centre of Bangkok (where even an inch of water disrupts everything commercial - and I'm not talking shopping malls here) is far less costly (in terms of damage and lost opportunity), than adding an extra half meter and few days of water submersion in selected suburbs). Furthermore, that was the course of action taken based on flooding estimates, and to suddenly change tack and let everything flow through the entire city, ultimately means a lose-lose scenario, rather than a win-lose.

There will no doubt be plenty of debate afterwards, with mixed opinion on which side won or lost the reputation war, but ultimately if there was an election next week I doubt Puea Thai would lose it, even if they had made a complete hash of the flooding. They have the privilege of being the govt therefore they must be prepared to take the heat when it comes to dissatisfaction in the handling of the relief plans.

Bizarre post rather confirming my earlier comments.

1.Why should the poor be any less able than anybody else to understand decisions made in connection with the flooding?

2.Yes many of Bangkok's residents have rural connections.That's part of the reason why nearly 50% voted for PTP.

3.The vital industrial estates are mainly in the flooded outskirts.You may not be talking shopping malls but I can assure you they come into the picture.

4.If an election was held tomorrow, I believe PTP would increase its majority.

5.With respect your comments on the more stressful environment of affluent city dwellers are comically absurd.Put the affluent urbanites in an Isaan dust bowl as a rice farmer and see how stressed they are.More seriously your naive assumption of a idyllic rural life is simply incorrect.

6.Your comments on urban voters not being susceptible to financial influence are doubly wrong, firstly because vote buying hasn't had a significant influence but secondly and more importantly Bangkok votes have already been influenced financially - given the skewed allocation of resources(health, education, infrastructure etc) towards the capital.

Re point 4. I think it would be a massive victory. Those who think the flood has wrecked PTP popularity are deluding themselves whatever a few telephone polls say. Be interesting if Yingluck called an election although it isnt needed right now as there are more important things to resolve. However, the Dems and their extra-parliamentary allies would be groaning if she did, even massive vote buying or gerrmandering cant stop the PTP steamroller. The flood has once again highlighted the them and us society and that only benefits PTP and that will continue to be true until the Democrats reform themselves into a party that is seen as putting the interests of the people before the rich. As even Thaksin has managed to get this perception over with PTP, it shouldnt be too much of an ask for the Dems although shedding the baggage of not opposing coups, boycotting elections, accepting power via a deal with the military and overseeing the military shooting at people does take some getting over.

Interestingly the flood gives the army the opportunity to go back to and stay in the barracks as they have been helping the people under a government they dont like, and it does create an opportunity to stay permanantly out of politics and have a better relationship with the elected government which hopefully they will take.

[jayboy]

Though this is the"21st Century" with Thais having access to the latest cell phone gadget , i-Pad, lap top computer, or satellite TV,--progress is not going to be made in this country until the MAJORITY of the young people (future voters and career people) have an up to date quality education that gets them independently thinking and working out problems for themselves. The majority will easily be "stuck" in the low income bracket and continue to be influenced by "bribes when voting or government handouts as long as they remain stuck in this rut - lacking the skill to think for themselves.

You are correct. This was also a problem in England and the US. Until the "country rubes" got themselves educated, the big city movers and shakers run rough shod all over their country cousins.

All you say is true but it's worth noting that in England the elite was prepared to accept reform, partly through pressure from below and partly because there was a genuine perception of the moral aspect among key elements of the upper class.As I have previously noted the upper class also showed a very keen sense of their own enlightened self interest with the result that its influence and wealth persist to this day.In other places like Germany, Russia, China there was no effective Whiggish party with the result that the old order was brutally smashed.Thailand stands at a crossroads.

It's worth noting the aristocratic class is curiously resilient, as we saw from the preeminence of someone like Chou Enlai.

[Buchholz]

Much more of this and PTP will lose a lot of their voters in their re-election bid (if it were to be held any time soon):

Thai consumer price index increased by 4.19 percent year on year last month, raised largely by floods that damaged farm production and the manufacturing sector, according to the Commerce Ministry.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Floods-drive-consumer-price-by-4-19-in-Oct-30168970.html

Although they'd likely win them back by not only essentially writing off over two and half million government loans, but also at the same time, giving those same two and half million voters, a 100,000 Baht payment.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/BAAC-to-grant-3-year-debt-moratorium-to-flood-vict-30168978.html

Inflation doesn't mean much if you can have a big loan written off AND get 100K from those you used to owe.

Hopefully, it's a mis-report somewhere and the BAAC isn't really going to provide 260,000,000,000 baht AND put a 3 year moratorium on loan repayments for 2.6 million people.

But the way this government is tossing huge amounts of money around, it could very well be accurate.

.

.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Buchholz

[OzMick]

Whether contempt for Thailand's poor is something "cooked up" for political reasons is a matter of opinion.Many with long experience of certain Bangkok attitudes would take a different view.Contempt does not always reveal itself in hatred (though it sometimes does for example at PAD rallies and on the social media).More often it is a kind of half witted patronising on the lines rural people are uneducated, stupid, bribable etc etc.

The editorial writer here is I think in error in assuming that the resolution of the social equity problem will be resolved by the established order.History tells us that it rarely works like that.The rural and urban poor majority will eventually impose their own solution.The challenge for the established order is to retreat gracefully and preserve as much of their wealth and power as new circumstances permit.It's been done before in other countries.Although things are slowly changing the established order in Thailand has limited understanding of enlightened self interest.Let's hope that changes because I don't want to be at the mercy of mob rule any more than they do.

Lay it on thick Jboy. Hatred at PAD rallies - anywhere near what we hear from your red mates?

I don't call rural Thais stupid, though some certainly deserve it, but uneducated, bribeable, uninformed, gullible - is it patronising to be accurate? Democracy requires an educated and informed populace, hopefully acting in their nation's best interests, with a free and critical press, and independent branches. So while we watch the floods, PTP slip in a law that newspapers will need a licence, from the patriarch's BIL.

A recipe for how democracy is NOT supposed to be.

[jayboy]

Lay it on thick Jboy. Hatred at PAD rallies - anywhere near what we hear from your red mates?

I don't call rural Thais stupid, though some certainly deserve it, but uneducated, bribeable, uninformed, gullible - is it patronising to be accurate? Democracy requires an educated and informed populace, hopefully acting in their nation's best interests, with a free and critical press, and independent branches. So while we watch the floods, PTP slip in a law that newspapers will need a licence, from the patriarch's BIL.

A recipe for how democracy is NOT supposed to be.

There was a great deal of hatred, ethnic slurs and Chinese triumphalism at PAD rallies.However that's not the point at issue.

You repeat your hateful slurs against the great majority of Thais, but there is absolutely no evidence that your insults are any more relevant to the rural majority than the urban middle class, the latter group on a per capita basis receiving a far higher share of resources from the state.In particular there is no evidence that urban Thais have an unselfish patriotism:they are primarily concerned in their own well being - and not to be blamed for that.

[Buchholz]

Whether contempt for Thailand's poor is something "cooked up" for political reasons is a matter of opinion.Many with long experience of certain Bangkok attitudes would take a different view.Contempt does not always reveal itself in hatred (though it sometimes does for example at PAD rallies and on the social media).More often it is a kind of half witted patronising on the lines rural people are uneducated, stupid, bribable etc etc.

The editorial writer here is I think in error in assuming that the resolution of the social equity problem will be resolved by the established order.History tells us that it rarely works like that.The rural and urban poor majority will eventually impose their own solution.The challenge for the established order is to retreat gracefully and preserve as much of their wealth and power as new circumstances permit.It's been done before in other countries.Although things are slowly changing the established order in Thailand has limited understanding of enlightened self interest.Let's hope that changes because I don't want to be at the mercy of mob rule any more than they do.

Lay it on thick Jboy. Hatred at PAD rallies - anywhere near what we hear from your red mates?

It's just superfluous gnashing. How many years ago was the last significant PAD rally? They way it's couched (mentioned alongside of social media), it's made to sound as if it's a current phenomena and a major influence.

Edited November 1, 2011 by Buchholz

[DocN]

Whether contempt for Thailand's poor is something "cooked up" for political reasons is a matter of opinion.Many with long experience of certain Bangkok attitudes would take a different view.Contempt does not always reveal itself in hatred (though it sometimes does for example at PAD rallies and on the social media).More often it is a kind of half witted patronising on the lines rural people are uneducated, stupid, bribable etc etc.

The editorial writer here is I think in error in assuming that the resolution of the social equity problem will be resolved by the established order.History tells us that it rarely works like that.The rural and urban poor majority will eventually impose their own solution.The challenge for the established order is to retreat gracefully and preserve as much of their wealth and power as new circumstances permit.It's been done before in other countries.Although things are slowly changing the established order in Thailand has limited understanding of enlightened self interest.Let's hope that changes because I don't want to be at the mercy of mob rule any more than they do.

Lay it on thick Jboy. Hatred at PAD rallies - anywhere near what we hear from your red mates?

I don't call rural Thais stupid, though some certainly deserve it, but uneducated, bribeable, uninformed, gullible - is it patronising to be accurate? Democracy requires an educated and informed populace, hopefully acting in their nation's best interests, with a free and critical press, and independent branches. So while we watch the floods, PTP slip in a law that newspapers will need a licence, from the patriarch's BIL.

A recipe for how democracy is NOT supposed to be.

Risking to go OT: and why are they uneducated etc.?

Because for centuries they did as they were told, voted who they should vote and accept their fate of being the pawns in the political chess game of the elite.

If they wanted, they could have educated them, give them schools and teachers and and education.

Why didn't they? Because they were quiet happy with the "uneducated masses", being as and where they were.

They bought their votes or just simply "made" them vote, what had to be voted.

All this "uneducated" (or less nice, but...let's faces, that IS what most think: stupid) talk, was not an issue unless someone came, made them vote different and started blurring out about "class-differences" "us and them" - which was a lie, of course, but it was very effective.

And suddenly, everybody is getting excited and out of their head, about the "uneducated" and how suddenly, they are a danger to Thailand, with voting for Thaksin the Horrible...

A dollar too short, a day too late...

[OzMick]

Lay it on thick Jboy. Hatred at PAD rallies - anywhere near what we hear from your red mates?

I don't call rural Thais stupid, though some certainly deserve it, but uneducated, bribeable, uninformed, gullible - is it patronising to be accurate? Democracy requires an educated and informed populace, hopefully acting in their nation's best interests, with a free and critical press, and independent branches. So while we watch the floods, PTP slip in a law that newspapers will need a licence, from the patriarch's BIL.

A recipe for how democracy is NOT supposed to be.

There was a great deal of hatred, ethnic slurs and Chinese triumphalism at PAD rallies.However that's not the point at issue.

You repeat your hateful slurs against the great majority of Thais, but there is absolutely no evidence that your insults are any more relevant to the rural majority than the urban middle class, the latter group on a per capita basis receiving a far higher share of resources from the state.In particular there is no evidence that urban Thais have an unselfish patriotism:they are primarily concerned in their own well being - and not to be blamed for that.

Actually, you raised the issue of hatred at PAD rallies - wasn't a good idea when somebody does a compare and contrast, was it?

I wonder if urban middle class Thais get a greater share of state resources because they contribute more, or if it just more economical resource distribution. At least it seems they have sufficient gorm to realise when they are being ripped mercilessly, something that doesn't seem to get mentioned in the sticks, well, not by a good majority at least.

You may have noticed that the government are looking for B800 billion, but no suggestion of cancelling the rice scam - which covers both bribeability and gullibility.

[OzMick]

Whether contempt for Thailand's poor is something "cooked up" for political reasons is a matter of opinion.Many with long experience of certain Bangkok attitudes would take a different view.Contempt does not always reveal itself in hatred (though it sometimes does for example at PAD rallies and on the social media).More often it is a kind of half witted patronising on the lines rural people are uneducated, stupid, bribable etc etc.

The editorial writer here is I think in error in assuming that the resolution of the social equity problem will be resolved by the established order.History tells us that it rarely works like that.The rural and urban poor majority will eventually impose their own solution.The challenge for the established order is to retreat gracefully and preserve as much of their wealth and power as new circumstances permit.It's been done before in other countries.Although things are slowly changing the established order in Thailand has limited understanding of enlightened self interest.Let's hope that changes because I don't want to be at the mercy of mob rule any more than they do.

Lay it on thick Jboy. Hatred at PAD rallies - anywhere near what we hear from your red mates?

I don't call rural Thais stupid, though some certainly deserve it, but uneducated, bribeable, uninformed, gullible - is it patronising to be accurate? Democracy requires an educated and informed populace, hopefully acting in their nation's best interests, with a free and critical press, and independent branches. So while we watch the floods, PTP slip in a law that newspapers will need a licence, from the patriarch's BIL.

A recipe for how democracy is NOT supposed to be.

Risking to go OT: and why are they uneducated etc.?

Because for centuries they did as they were told, voted who they should vote and accept their fate of being the pawns in the political chess game of the elite.

If they wanted, they could have educated them, give them schools and teachers and and education.

Why didn't they? Because they were quiet happy with the "uneducated masses", being as and where they were.

They bought their votes or just simply "made" them vote, what had to be voted.

All this "uneducated" (or less nice, but...let's faces, that IS what most think: stupid) talk, was not an issue unless someone came, made them vote different and started blurring out about "class-differences" "us and them" - which was a lie, of course, but it was very effective.

And suddenly, everybody is getting excited and out of their head, about the "uneducated" and how suddenly, they are a danger to Thailand, with voting for Thaksin the Horrible...

A dollar too short, a day too late...

Not saying it's not a problem, but the ONLY improvement I have seen in 10+ years was the funding for books and uniforms, and that has been diverted to pay for tablets.

Hagar is Horrible, Thaksin is <deleted>

[jayboy]

It's just superfluous gnashing. How many years ago was the last significant PAD rally? They way it's couched (mentioned alongside of social media), it's made to sound as if it's a current phenomena and a major influence.

With respect and ignoring your usual insulting remarks, you haven't grasped the point I'm afraid.It was never suggested the racist bile heard from PAD leaders was a current issue.The same applies to the disgusting language used on the social media after the Bangkok disturbances early last year.The relevance is that these are attitudes quite well ingrained in some sections of the mainly urban middle class.It would be naive to suppose these attitudes have disappeared, and they tend to be articulated overtly at times of stress.

[asiascharlie]

This red yellow back and forth will continue until finally someone with some vision comes along not affiliated with either sides and woos the population with common sense instead of stupid populist policies .Until that person comes and forms a new party this will continue and so will the back and forth rich poor red yellow nonsense that politicians have us dancing to to right now .

[Bakseedaa]

Whether contempt for Thailand's poor is something "cooked up" for political reasons is a matter of opinion.Many with long experience of certain Bangkok attitudes would take a different view.Contempt does not always reveal itself in hatred (though it sometimes does for example at PAD rallies and on the social media).More often it is a kind of half witted patronising on the lines rural people are uneducated, stupid, bribable etc etc.

The editorial writer here is I think in error in assuming that the resolution of the social equity problem will be resolved by the established order.History tells us that it rarely works like that.The rural and urban poor majority will eventually impose their own solution.The challenge for the established order is to retreat gracefully and preserve as much of their wealth and power as new circumstances permit.It's been done before in other countries.Although things are slowly changing the established order in Thailand has limited understanding of enlightened self interest.Let's hope that changes because I don't want to be at the mercy of mob rule any more than they do.

Tough luck Dude, in case you did not notice, Thailand is at the mercy of mob-rule.... they are called Red Shirts, and like rats , they are everywhere

[hanuman1]

Whether contempt for Thailand's poor is something "cooked up" for political reasons is a matter of opinion.Many with long experience of certain Bangkok attitudes would take a different view.Contempt does not always reveal itself in hatred (though it sometimes does for example at PAD rallies and on the social media).More often it is a kind of half witted patronising on the lines rural people are uneducated, stupid, bribable etc etc.

The editorial writer here is I think in error in assuming that the resolution of the social equity problem will be resolved by the established order.History tells us that it rarely works like that.The rural and urban poor majority will eventually impose their own solution.The challenge for the established order is to retreat gracefully and preserve as much of their wealth and power as new circumstances permit.It's been done before in other countries.Although things are slowly changing the established order in Thailand has limited understanding of enlightened self interest.Let's hope that changes because I don't want to be at the mercy of mob rule any more than they do.

Tough luck Dude, in case you did not notice, Thailand is at the mercy of mob-rule.... they are called Red Shirts, and like rats , they are everywhere

But unlike rats, they can vote in sufficient numbers to determine which party will be this country's government. You are now in the process of learning to live with this fact.

[yoshiwara]

Lay it on thick Jboy. Hatred at PAD rallies - anywhere near what we hear from your red mates?

I don't call rural Thais stupid, though some certainly deserve it, but uneducated, bribeable, uninformed, gullible - is it patronising to be accurate? Democracy requires an educated and informed populace, hopefully acting in their nation's best interests, with a free and critical press, and independent branches. So while we watch the floods, PTP slip in a law that newspapers will need a licence, from the patriarch's BIL.

A recipe for how democracy is NOT supposed to be.

There was a great deal of hatred, ethnic slurs and Chinese triumphalism at PAD rallies.However that's not the point at issue.

You repeat your hateful slurs against the great majority of Thais, but there is absolutely no evidence that your insults are any more relevant to the rural majority than the urban middle class, the latter group on a per capita basis receiving a far higher share of resources from the state.In particular there is no evidence that urban Thais have an unselfish patriotism:they are primarily concerned in their own well being - and not to be blamed for that.

Strange how the red cheerleaders prattle on about the Chinese but then go tone deaf when it is pointed out that Thaksin is from Chinese ancestry.

As for slurs how about Thaksin's attack on gays? Every time that is also pointed out the deaf muffs go on again.

[yoshiwara]

It's just superfluous gnashing. How many years ago was the last significant PAD rally? They way it's couched (mentioned alongside of social media), it's made to sound as if it's a current phenomena and a major influence.

With respect and ignoring your usual insulting remarks, you haven't grasped the point I'm afraid.It was never suggested the racist bile heard from PAD leaders was a current issue.The same applies to the disgusting language used on the social media after the Bangkok disturbances early last year.The relevance is that these are attitudes quite well ingrained in some sections of the mainly urban middle class.It would be naive to suppose these attitudes have disappeared, and they tend to be articulated overtly at times of stress.

I see the murderous red thuggery of 2010 is now reduced to 'disturbances'. Please try to save us from that and the poor sociology of 'ingrained attitudes'.

Good to see the continued attacks on the BKK working classes. 'Urban' with a sneer.

[LomSak27]

Great article but they miss a significant fact, or seem unable to gaze long into the mirror. The Nation went at this "crisis" whole hog, this will be the red shirts hurricane Katrina, now when it all turns ugly they do not like what they see, and walla, they had nothing to do with it .... .

Unable to e to acknowledge their own newspapers role, it all morphs to democrats vs PTP, reds vs yellows and little ole Nation newspaper has washed their own hands

With honesty like that, its nothing more than the same old donkey stuff and lets fdace it a mean spiritede pathetic performance over this crisis

Thanks NATION, thanks for the deep SOUL SEARCHING a la Imtiaz

[beammeup]

This red yellow back and forth will continue until finally someone with some vision comes along not affiliated with either sides and woos the population with common sense instead of stupid populist policies .Until that person comes and forms a new party this will continue and so will the back and forth rich poor red yellow nonsense that politicians have us dancing to to right now .

Not when the reds control all the villages and threaten violence against any oposition