No Hope For Democracy If Backing For Army Rule Continues: Thailand

[webfact]

BURNING ISSUE

No hope for democracy if backing for Army rule continues

By Pravit Rojanaphruk

After launching nearly 20 "successful" coups d'etat, the Army has established a firm presence in Thai politics, arguably becoming almost a state within a state. Now, the flood crisis and the Army's role in assisting flood-affected residents has, whether intentionally or not, reinforced this view and suggested how difficult it would be for Thailand to cut back on the power and introduce solid civilian control over the top brass.

While there's no denying the hard work put in by Army officers in various flood-affected areas, discussions over the past two weeks has highlighted the now-strengthening belief that the Army is almost a separate political entity. People on social-networking sites such as Twitter have been discussing the role of the Army vis-à-vis the government, with some even saying it is not part of the state.

Perhaps it can be said that apart from the three branches of government - the executive, the legislative and the judiciary - the Army is increasingly affirming itself a major "semi-independent" political player, claming to be the ultimate defender of the throne and the country.

If rogue, overly ambitious generals who see nothing wrong in overthrowing an elected government and a severely weak civilian administration are not enough of a curse, supporters of coups and military rule almost ensure that the Army will continue to maintain undue political influence in the years ahead.

With the Yingluck Shinawatra government's disappointing performance in handling the flood crisis over the past two months, some may be calling for the Army to intervene. On November 10, a reader wrote to The Nation saying: "Even if the democratic system is temporarily suspended, I doubt there would be that much objection [provided it is only in a short time frame]."

This month, prominent journalist Wassana Nanuam was heard telling listeners on FM101 that the Army was keeping some tanks in the capital "just in case" it needed them for another putsch.

It is attitudes like this that reflects how normal the Army's "special", undemocratic role in Thai politics is considered.

However, the Army did blush a bit when The Nation's sister daily, Krungthep Turakij, reported on November 7 that a "highly placed military source" said the top brass had given Yingluck an "F" for her handling of the flood situation. Statements like this are unthinkable in a democratic nation, even though the Army sent a strongly worded letter of denial later.

Though there is no denying that Yingluck's performance has been less than sterling so far and that the administration still has corrupt and self-serving politicians, people who think another military intervention is a good idea must look beyond their sense of instant gratification.

Repeated military interventions will only further weaken civilian control of the Army, which is not elected and thus not accountable, and eventually render the system ungovernable because there is still a substantial section of Thai society that will no longer put up with another putsch.

As supporters and cheerleaders of military rule continue entertaining these prospects, Thailand would do well to understand their myopic and draconian minds better.

-- The Nation 2011-11-16

[whybother]

The army have got out there and done their job helping people. They've barely said a word about anything.

How is that "reinforcing the view that they are a state within a state" or "establishing a firm role in politics"?

I'm sure you (Pravit) would have preferred they stayed in their barracks just so you could write an article complaining about how they don't want to help the people.

[Moruya]

How many army are actually in the government?

[jayboy]

The army have got out there and done their job helping people. They've barely said a word about anything.

How is that "reinforcing the view that they are a state within a state" or "establishing a firm role in politics"?

I'm sure you (Pravit) would have preferred they stayed in their barracks just so you could write an article complaining about how they don't want to help the people.

Surely the answer to your question is addressed directly in the article by Pravit.The journalist quoted, Wassana Nanuam, is incidentally an expert on army politics and her sources are first class.

However if one operates on the level that the army is doing a good job in the flooding crisis and we can therefore forget all the troubling issues associated with the military's past and present political ambitions, so be it.

[whybother]

The army have got out there and done their job helping people. They've barely said a word about anything.

How is that "reinforcing the view that they are a state within a state" or "establishing a firm role in politics"?

I'm sure you (Pravit) would have preferred they stayed in their barracks just so you could write an article complaining about how they don't want to help the people.

Surely the answer to your question is addressed directly in the article by Pravit.The journalist quoted, Wassana Nanuam, is incidentally an expert on army politics and her sources are first class.

However if one operates on the level that the army is doing a good job in the flooding crisis and we can therefore forget all the troubling issues associated with the military's past and present political ambitions, so be it.

What does a few tanks in the capital have to do with them helping people in the floods?

Even "a highly placed military source" giving Yingluck an "F" is someone saying (of the record) that she has stuffed up.

I am not suggesting that the army are not involved in politics, or that some people think that they should kick Yingluck out, but linking their efforts in the floods to "No Hope for Democracy" is pretty cheap.

Hopefully Pravit's next article will be "No Hope for Democracy If Backing for Corrupt Former Leaders Continues".

[jonclark]

The problem is not so much the army, but the poor caliber of politicians that Thailand produces. The people accept the role of the army because deep down they know the people they elect to office (Chalerm, Suthep, Jatuporn being prime examples) are utter fools. Until the quality of MPs improves their will be no hope for Thai democracy.

Todays news of the secretive cabinet meeting to grant the boss amnesty is a case in point of the manipulation of politics and the poor judgement of Thai MPs. Should the army sit back and let the civilian population go for each others jugular or intervene? Because we all know the situation which is on the horizon and fast approaching.

[noitom]

Thailand = military kleptocracy

[jayboy]

I am not suggesting that the army are not involved in politics, or that some people think that they should kick Yingluck out, but linking their efforts in the floods to "No Hope for Democracy" is pretty cheap.

But no such link has been suggested.So indignation doesn't seem appropriate unless, to quote Khun Pravit,one is a "supporter and cheerleader for military rule".

[webfact]

Thai Army Turns Flooding Into a P.R. Opportunity

BANGKOK — Troops and army trucks are rolling through the streets of Bangkok again. But this time it is not to battle protesters or overthrow a prime minister.

Follow this link:

[noitom]

Thailand = military kleptocracy

here's a good one for Thailand : Ineptocracy = a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers

Edited November 16, 2011 by noitom

[whybother]

I am not suggesting that the army are not involved in politics, or that some people think that they should kick Yingluck out, but linking their efforts in the floods to "No Hope for Democracy" is pretty cheap.

But no such link has been suggested.So indignation doesn't seem appropriate unless, to quote Khun Pravit,one is a "supporter and cheerleader for military rule".

After launching nearly 20 "successful" coups d'etat, the Army has established a firm presence in Thai politics, arguably becoming almost a state within a state. Now, the flood crisis and the Army's role in assisting flood-affected residents has, whether intentionally or not, reinforced this view

Isn't that a "link"?

"The army's role in assisting flood-affected residents has reinforced the view that the army has established a firm presence in Thai politics and is becoming a state within a state."

How do you read that?

[jayboy]

After launching nearly 20 "successful" coups d'etat, the Army has established a firm presence in Thai politics, arguably becoming almost a state within a state. Now, the flood crisis and the Army's role in assisting flood-affected residents has, whether intentionally or not, reinforced this view

Isn't that a "link"?

"The army's role in assisting flood-affected residents has reinforced the view that the army has established a firm presence in Thai politics and is becoming a state within a state."

How do you read that?

Fair enough, but it's really just a link in to the more general problems associated with army interference in politics.But point taken.

[h90]

What Democracy?

Better a coup than these criminals in power

[Logarhythm]

What Thailand needs is a benevolent dictator.

[whybother]

After launching nearly 20 "successful" coups d'etat, the Army has established a firm presence in Thai politics, arguably becoming almost a state within a state. Now, the flood crisis and the Army's role in assisting flood-affected residents has, whether intentionally or not, reinforced this view

Isn't that a "link"?

"The army's role in assisting flood-affected residents has reinforced the view that the army has established a firm presence in Thai politics and is becoming a state within a state."

How do you read that?

Fair enough, but it's really just a link in to the more general problems associated with army interference in politics.But point taken.

It's not a link to "the more general problems". It's directly linking the army's flood assistance to politics.

[virtualtraveller]

I'm glad the New York Times ran a story that shows there's more to the Thai army than coups, and I'm really sick and tired of journalists and politicians pulling out another cheap shot about the coup. It was 5 years ago, we've had four govts, two elections and two different sides in power since. Get over it will ya!

I think a lot of people in this country have given YS an F for handling the floods, compare her to the army who quietly get on with it and not make overt political capital, while the real 'democratic' govt are busy doing undemocratic things like trying to pardon a big crook.

Forget the army as a threat to this country's stability, the real threat is when Thaksin comes home, you'll see massive protest and then who's going to be sitting obediently in their barracks refusing to get involved.

Truth be told, at this point in time I'd rather have the army running our country than the Shinawatra's, what they did in a cabinet meeting yesterday and then denying any knowledge of it, is worse than an unaccountable military.

[jayboy]

What Democracy?

Better a coup than these criminals in power

Even supporters at the time of the last coup now recognise it brought nothing but disaster for Thailand.I wonder why you think it would be different this time.

Your reference to the government's "criminality" is probably defamation so I should be a little more careful in your language

Incidentally probably best in the interests of full disclosure to admit you were an open supporter of PAD and attended their rallies.

[jayboy]

I'm glad the New York Times ran a story that shows there's more to the Thai army than coups, and I'm really sick and tired of journalists and politicians pulling out another cheap shot about the coup. It was 5 years ago, we've had four govts, two elections and two different sides in power since. Get over it will ya!

You don't seem to have digested the article very carefully.

"But the military’s frequent interventions in politics have also been at the heart of the country’s political turmoil in recent years."

[Ponbkk]

Thailand's top generals have used the floods, the worst the country has had in decades, as an opportunity

They have rushed to help and save people and industrial estates left with poor inventory of vehicles like the BMA with was with water pumps and someone half way around the world whines they are being opportunists?

Edited November 16, 2011 by Ponbkk

[h90]

What Democracy?

Better a coup than these criminals in power

Even supporters at the time of the last coup now recognise it brought nothing but disaster for Thailand.I wonder why you think it would be different this time.

Your reference to the government's "criminality" is probably defamation so I should be a little more careful in your language

Incidentally probably best in the interests of full disclosure to admit you were an open supporter of PAD and attended their rallies.

What disaster was brought to Thailand by the coup?

Please explain!

Yes I support what the PAD does, fighting for democracy and against corruption. What is wrong with that?

[EyesWideOpen]

The real issue underlining this is the intellect of the Thai voters. If they can think no further than to vote for the first person to give them 500 baht for their vote, then Thailand will be saddled with an endless string of corrupt people running the country. Hey wait a minute, that is what has happened in the past !!!! Then when the corruption gets out of control, the army has to step in to perform a coup.

My favorite political saying is that every country has EXACTLY the government they deserve. Thailand will never have a democracy until vote buying is stopped. Only that will stop the vicious cycle of bought government, coup, army control, and then elections again with a new corrupt government. Sort of sad really. I look at Thailand as being like the Philippines. A country full of wonderful hardworking people, saddled with a succession of endless corrupt governments that bleed the people dry.....

[h90]

Thailand's top generals have used the floods, the worst the country has had in decades, as an opportunity

They have rushed to help and save people and industrial estates left with poor inventory of vehicles like the BMA with was with water pumps and someone half way around the world whines they are being opportunists?

Not half the world whines....just some commies and some people paid by Thaksin (or his PR people, like Amsterdam). The army is doing their job well: "They are opportunists". The army is doing their job poor: "They don't care about the people".

here in my village (now week 3 under water) even the red security guy loves the army and told my wife that he want to kick "e Yingluck" out together with his friend....Definitely no whining about the army.

[Thaddeus]

Thailand = military kleptocracy

here's a good one for Thailand : Ineptocracy = a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers

Yep, the shiniest turd in the box is still a turd.

[MunterHunter]

Cos of course, Democracy is completely safe in the hands of Thaksin Yingluck, right?

[h90]

The real issue underlining this is the intellect of the Thai voters. If they can think no further than to vote for the first person to give them 500 baht for their vote, then Thailand will be saddled with an endless string of corrupt people running the country. Hey wait a minute, that is what has happened in the past !!!! Then when the corruption gets out of control, the army has to step in to perform a coup.

My favorite political saying is that every country has EXACTLY the government they deserve. Thailand will never have a democracy until vote buying is stopped. Only that will stop the vicious cycle of bought government, coup, army control, and then elections again with a new corrupt government. Sort of sad really. I look at Thailand as being like the Philippines. A country full of wonderful hardworking people, saddled with a succession of endless corrupt governments that bleed the people dry.....

No, I think the problems is with the courts (the people and the laws). If that alone would work, it would weed out the corruption on every level, would clean the police and politics.

That is the failure of the army: That they never wrote a real constitution that can only be changed per 2/3 majority. And that they didn't change the system to roman law with very exact laws that can be processed fast.

Look at Malaysia, they can do it.

[creck]

What Thailand needs is a benevolent dictator.

Very true but do you know any? I don't.

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

Winston Churchill

Edited November 16, 2011 by creck

[kutjebu]

Thailand = military kleptocracy

here's a good one for Thailand : Ineptocracy = a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers

Thanks for your comments.Europe and the U.S is doing a lot better of course.I read everyday how they handle there problems.....brilliant not????

[gregb]

Given that this story ran in conjunction with the announcement of amnesty for the criminal fugitive, it is no doubt a coordinated propaganda effort by Robert Amsterdam, and it should simply be ignored.

The Thai government today sealed the fate of the country. There will be civil war. Even should the red insurgents manage to win a battle or two, this problem will not go away. Thaksin and his dynasty will be brought down.

Thais clearly are not ready for democracy if they think Thaksin is the way to get it. Long live the military, who for all their problems, are the only reliable rulers in this country. There will be war one way or the other. Better it be the military in control than the terrorists.

[gregb]

What Thailand needs is a benevolent dictator.

Very true but do you know any? I don't.

It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

Winston Churchill

Winston Churchill was a moron. Give me a king any day over democracy. Sometimes kings are good and sometimes they are bad, but democracies always fall to the lowest common denominator of the population. Monarchies at least have a chance at being fair and just over the long term.

[jayboy]

What disaster was brought to Thailand by the coup?

Please explain!

Yes I support what the PAD does, fighting for democracy and against corruption. What is wrong with that?

If it is true that PAD was fighting for democracy, I agree nothing but good arose from the coup.