Stick Vs Auto

[tom yum goong]

I learnt to drive in an auto and took my driving test in one. Both my parents cars were autos so thats all i drove for ages.

Once i learnt to drive a manual, i've never looked back. You have a lot more control over the car, its a lot more fun to drive, cheaper to buy, less likely to break down and uses less petrol.

Not sure i would want a manual in Bangkok though.

[Thaiboxer]

During my nine years of driving in the States, I had four vehicles. The first and last ones were autos. It took me a little while to get the hang of driving a stick when I got my second car since I went away to college in central Florida where it was quite hilly. Once I could drive the stick without any trouble I have always preferred them. The reason for my last vehicle being an auto (96' Dodge Grand Caravan SE) was because my father gave it to my wife and I. It had a load of miles on it but it had AC, plenty of space and was a pleasure to drive (until the crossover tube busted).

I drive a stick shift car here in Bangkok. It's an old Toyota that burns a lot of gas but it gets us from point A to point B. I've been stuck on up ramps going into the mall and on bridges in traffic but I just pull up the handbrake and rest till the traffic moves again. Even with all the traffic jams here in the city I still prefer the stick shift any day. I think the benefits of having a manual transmission FAR outweigh any benefit of having an auto.

Edited November 23, 2005 by Thaiboxer

[Thaiboxer]

One thing I found interesting is how many of the minivans and full sized vans here are stick shift. Every van or minivan I saw in the States was an automatic. The full sized vans here are also not as big and cumbersome. These Toyota vans (which are often used as taxis) with diesel engines/manual transmissions would be a good bet for somebody who needs the space but doesn't want a pickup.

[Plus]

Passenger cars and 4 door pickups are sold moslty with auto, I read about 80% of them are auto. Two door pickups sold for commercial purposes are mostly manual, Vigo doesn't even offer auto in 2 door models.

As for switching from one to another - my gf and her father used to drive manuals, but won't go back anymore if you force them - autos are so much easier in Bangkok.

Jazz with manual? Does it even exist? It's CVT with seven speed "manual mode" buttons, isn't it?

[Thaiboxer]

Some friends of ours have a Jazz, I believe it's about a year old and from what I observed it's a straight manual. The rest of it looks to be the bottom of the line from an options viewpoint. I think they start around 600,000 baht for the most basic model which this one probably is. I think the one you're referring to may be a new design for 2006. Some other posters have mentioned this new transmission design.

Some other friends of ours have a Honda City (2004 or 2005) with a gearbox that lets you choose between stick and auto. The whole setup looks a bit complex to me and I've always felt that the more complex a piece of machinery is the more likely it is to break down. I've noticed this with some of the auto transmissions in the Mitsubishi sedans which are controlled by computer chips. If the chip goes bad the whole system falls apart and leaves you stranded.

I didn't know you could only get a manual with a two door Vigo. I've noticed that all the commercial trucks are manuals. It makes sense for the company to keep their overhead costs down by purchasing cheaper vehicles. When I used to work for a state park years ago all their trucks were manual.

[tom yum goong]

Passenger cars and 4 door pickups are sold moslty with auto, I read about 80% of them are auto. Two door pickups sold for commercial purposes are mostly manual, Vigo doesn't even offer auto in 2 door models.

As for switching from one to another - my gf and her father used to drive manuals, but won't go back anymore if you force them - autos are so much easier in Bangkok.

Jazz with manual? Does it even exist? It's CVT with seven speed "manual mode" buttons, isn't it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hope the Jazz has a manual version, i just paid a deposit on one.

One thing i found when i was shopping around for a car, all the larger engines or models with ABS and Airbags were auto transmission only.

[raro]

First and foremost: The decision for which gear to use should be with the driver and not with the car. Enough said...

I drive a Jazz which has a 7-gear automatic and with a little practice, you can learn how to switch the gear using your right foot. There is also a Jazz with a manual transmission available, but it is the most basic version of all. No ABS, no Airbag, no nothing. The manual 7-gear paddle shift all other Jazz models have are rather a toy. I never really used it and it doesn't give you the real gear shift feeling as it is without clutch.

Funny it is: Once you switch into the manual mode, the revs go up by about 500 rpm at the same speed. I asked Honda what it is about and they simply denied the fact. I took the manager and the chief engineer for a ride and they were still denying what was plain to see...

[Thaiboxer]

Funny it is: Once you switch into the manual mode, the revs go up by about 500 rpm at the same speed. I asked Honda what it is about and they simply denied the fact. I took the manager and the chief engineer for a ride and they were still denying what was plain to see...

Makes you wonder about their service. Another poster mentioned that he was not satisfied with Honda's service. I wonder if there is a defect either in the design or with your particular vehicle.

[Jeff1]

If you drive a stick shift in BKK you will be lucky to get 30,000 kms out of your clutch, and you will develop huge muscles on your left leg...

My clutch has a lot more than 30,000km on it and it's still going strong. The extra muscles on the left leg wouldn't be so bad

What I do in standstill traffic is simply shift into neutral and hold the brake lightly. On flat ground I rest both feet.

Thats fine until the car in front of you starts or stops .

[tom yum goong]

Funny it is: Once you switch into the manual mode, the revs go up by about 500 rpm at the same speed. I asked Honda what it is about and they simply denied the fact. I took the manager and the chief engineer for a ride and they were still denying what was plain to see...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm definitely no expert but from what i've read about the CVT in the Jazz/City, is it possible your engine is having to rev harder in 7-speed mode because your automatic is no longer able to select the optimum gear ratio for that particular speed?

just a guess.

[raro]

Funny it is: Once you switch into the manual mode, the revs go up by about 500 rpm at the same speed. I asked Honda what it is about and they simply denied the fact. I took the manager and the chief engineer for a ride and they were still denying what was plain to see...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm definitely no expert but from what i've read about the CVT in the Jazz/City, is it possible your engine is having to rev harder in 7-speed mode because your automatic is no longer able to select the optimum gear ratio for that particular speed?

just a guess.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

not quite. According to Honda, youuse the exactly same gears in automatic mode as in manual mode. Else you would need two gear boxes. However, if you drive at a constant speed and press the manual button, the revs go up by approx. 500 instantly.

[raro]

Funny it is: Once you switch into the manual mode, the revs go up by about 500 rpm at the same speed. I asked Honda what it is about and they simply denied the fact. I took the manager and the chief engineer for a ride and they were still denying what was plain to see...

Makes you wonder about their service. Another poster mentioned that he was not satisfied with Honda's service. I wonder if there is a defect either in the design or with your particular vehicle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That was possibly me and I say it again....avoid the shop in Pattaya. The shop in Rayong ain't much better either. Brought the car there for the 50k inspection and they didn't notice that the bearings of the rear wheels were worn out. I found out after 51k...as far as I remember they should last a little longer anyways...but under warranty, who cares!

[tom yum goong]

not quite. According to Honda, youuse the exactly same gears in automatic mode as in manual mode. Else you would need two gear boxes. However, if you drive at a constant speed and press the manual button, the revs go up by approx. 500 instantly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

please excuse my ignorance here, but isnt the point of a CVT gearbox to be able to select an infinite (?) number of gear ratios. isn't that why its called "continuously variable transmission".

so wouldnt locking 7 arbitrary gear ratios to give u a feel of a manual transmission negate the efficiency you were benefitting from in CVT mode?

sorry if i'm way off mark.

edit - typos

Edited November 24, 2005 by tom yum goong

[davethailand]

Auto's are great for ease etc but with a small sportier car (or for more control obviously) i prefer manual.

You can keep the tiptronic stuff.

I've driven the tiptronic stuff on Mercs, Audi's, Bentleys etc etc and although admittedly i have'nt tried the newer boxes i ended up putting them back to auto mode.

(the Audi A6 4.2 Quattro) was a laugh with the steering wheel gear change buttons.

[raro]

not quite. According to Honda, youuse the exactly same gears in automatic mode as in manual mode. Else you would need two gear boxes. However, if you drive at a constant speed and press the manual button, the revs go up by approx. 500 instantly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

please excuse my ignorance here, but isnt the point of a CVT gearbox to be able to select an infinite (?) number of gear ratios. isn't that why its called "continuously variable transmission".

so wouldnt locking 7 arbitrary gear ratios to give u a feel of a manual transmission negate the efficiency you were benefitting from in CVT mode?

sorry if i'm way off mark.

edit - typos

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well...it is not "continuously variable transmission" for sure. After a bit of practice with your right foot you can switch between the gears also in auto mode. It has a difference of approx. 500 revs between the different gears at any given speed and you can figure out after a while in which gear you are. I t appears as it has seven gears, just like the manual mode. But once you switch to the manual mode, the revs go up by 500 without a noteable gear change. The Pattaya Honda chief engineer - as mentioned before - explained to me that the revs do not go up and that it is all in my imagination. Even when he was sitting in the back seat, watching the instruments.

Not that this causes me sleepless nights, but if someone can come up with a physical explanation...

[tom yum goong]

if you r sure that u have a 7 speed auto gearbox instead of a CVT gearbox u should sue Honda for false advertising.

[Plus]

CVT box is still governed by computer so though in theory the revs should stay the same while the gear ratio changes I doubt it ever actually happens.

About 500 rev surge - I don't know how it is with Honda but in Toyotas there's "Overdrive mode" button, by default it's On and once you switch it off there's that instant rev surge. I don't know exactly how it works but the idea is that it lets the wheels turn faster than the gear ratios should allow. Once it's Off the engine need to pick up revs to keep with the wheels.

It's pretty much useless with diesels because of the flat torque curve but in benzene engines that rev surge immediately puts you in a higher torque band and gives better acceleration - good for overtaking. Sometimes it's called "Power" button - I think in Altis, or Isuzus.

[raro]

ok...done my homework and read in the internet about CVT technology. Well, might be as Plus mentioned. In theory the engine revs should stay constant, as the computer adjusts that V-Belt. In real life, however, it is done in steps and this I interpreted as a gear change (which it after all is...).

So the 7-gear paddle shift is nothing else but predefined transmission ratios of the belt? That could explain the 500 rev shift as by telling the car upon pressing the manual button to get ready for some more sportive driving. The tiny Jazz engine gets its power by revs only....torque is somewhat close to zero...

[tom yum goong]

The tiny Jazz engine gets its power by revs only....torque is somewhat close to zero...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

just curious raro, r u refering to the vtec or idsi version?

I thought the idsi version was supposed to be quite torquey for a small car, good for fast pickup in city driving. maximum torque comes at quite low revs, doesn't it?

from honda thailand website:

idsi : 131 N-m / 2,700 rpm

vtec : 143 N-m / 4,800 rpm

Honda's Vtec engines are high revving by nature. I think thats why many ppl love them so much.

[Thaiboxer]

Honda's Vtec engines are high revving by nature. I think thats why many ppl love them so much.

That's an interesting point. I've noticed that many people here (particularly young men) like putting these large diameter exhaust pipes on their little Hondas to make them sound as if they have a powerful V8 under the hood. This is also common in South Florida with teenagers. It always made me laugh to hear this roaring sound and see a little Japanese car go by.

[Plus]

Vtec mechanism kicks in at about 4,000 rpm, until then the engines are sluggish, or rather "normal". To compare iDSI with Vtec we have to look at the torque curve across the whole range - something Honda people keep secret.

I hate Honda just for this - try to find any technical information on their website - it's all flash animations and fashion statements, yet they have no shame in presenting themselves as "innovative" and "technogically superior" - all that sales crap and no substance and some people actually buy this sales pitch and put "I love Honda" stickers everywhere.

Pathetic, really.

[Thaiboxer]

I agree with that...Honda likes making a fashion statement with their cars. The new City is an example; the commercial would better apply to a really high end car like a Porsche or Jaguar. The City and Vios are much more reasonably priced than their Accord and Camry counterparts, however the construction quality leaves a lot to be desired. Both the Accord and Camry sell for over 1 million baht...quite a bit more than in the US. It seems that the best buy for the money would be one of these diesel pickups. Cars are WAY overpriced here in proportion to the quality/options you get.

Still better here than in Singapore though!

Edited November 25, 2005 by Thaiboxer

[tom yum goong]

Vtec mechanism kicks in at about 4,000 rpm,  until then the engines are sluggish, or rather "normal". To compare iDSI with Vtec we have to look at the torque curve across the whole range - something Honda people keep secret.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

with vtec "off" at lower rpms, power output is sacrificed for fuel efficiency and low emissions.

i'm not a mechanic but this makes sense to me.

for everyday drivers u have power when u need it - hence vtec opening at higher rpms, and fuel efficiency/low emisions when stuck in traffic.

why is it pathetic? not trying to defend Honda but genuinely curious as someone who is waiting for their new jazz vtec.

cheers.

[raro]

I've got the VTec. And right...up to some 4,000 rpm it behaves rather "normal", but beyond that it has a lot of bite. Much appreciated upon overtaking or other maneuovers where good accelaration is needed. Overdoing it will be punished with a highly increased fuel bill. Usually I drive the car below 8 liters per 100 km, cruising at 120 to 1400 km/h. But a couple of weeks ago I did the east bypass of Khao Yai (Highway 304) in less than 40 minutes...that was 12 liters per 100 km.

[Thaiboxer]

Tom yum goong..I think Plus is referring to Honda's habit of making themselves out to be technologically superior, fashionable, etc while making it difficult to find technical info on their vehicles; at least through their websites/literature. If I were looking for that kind of info, I'd go to either local mechanics or some of these auto club websites. There is probably a wealth of sound info out there somewhere but most of the club websites here are likely to be in Thai only.

Hondas are well-known in the States for being efficient and long lasting. I'm not sure if that is the case here in Thailand as quality control standards are different. The Jazz is definitely a quick little van though. Took a ride in one over in Rayong and it moved quite easily with that small engine.

[tom yum goong]

agree about the lack of technical data, or any meaniful data in fact, on the Honda Thailand website. The japanese one looks like it might be better, if only i could read japanese.

For those who r interested, during my research i came across a Malaysian forum

http://autoworld.com.my/forum/

which is in English and has a lot of useful info. Obviously there are differences between Malaysia and Thailand but a few of the models sold in Malaysia, the Jazz for example, are produced in Thailand, so u can get a good idea of what they are like.

Also good for getting info on the Vios which is hard to find in English as its only sold in Asean.

one of the things that astonished me is the price difference. A Jazz costs over 1 million baht!!

[Thaiboxer]

one of the things that astonished me is the price difference. A Jazz costs over 1 million baht!!

That's crazy! I can only imagine what a Camry would cost there. Camrys are already overpriced here as it is.

[otherstuff1957]

Manual trannys only for me! I learned to drive in my parents VW Bug on dirt backroads in northern Florida. My first car looked like this:

It was one of those classic $500 sportscars. I had to use a lot of bondo and paint to get the body looking OK, but it was one of the most fun cars I've ever owned.

[Thaiboxer]

That looks like a fun little sportscar! My father raced a 1984 Chevy Camaro Z-28 IROC. It only had a top speed of 140mph but it was a tank! I believe GMC stopped making Camaros in 2002. They aren't too good on gas but they're quite stable around corners. You don't see many of those types of sportscars over here in Thailand. I saw a Corvette once and there are some older muscle cars poking around but most of the cars here tend to be the light bodied Japanese cars. With labor being so cheap I can see why many folks keep these old tanks running.

[wilko]

Hi Folks...glad to see we now have a forum dedicated just to motoring

I'm curious; which type of transmission do you car drivers prefer and why?

I prefer a stick. Once I learned how to drive a stick back in the States I've always preferred them over autos. Stick shift cars sell for less than automatics. They offer better acceleration and mileage along with a longer life (usually). A car which uses a manual transmission can be easily jumped started if there is a hill nearby or if you can push it quick enough. A stick can make you feel closer to the car when you're driving. Also, if the transmission goes bad on you sticks are cheaper to repair. The downsides are that they don't hold their value as well as automatics do and many find them troublesome in traffic jams.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How an auto accelerates depends very much on how it has been set up....you'd be hard pushed to out accelerate an auto nowadays., if it's set up to accelerate fast.

On 4WD they are a boon, with all the donkeywork done for you.