Zambrano Application; Uk

[7by7]

A friend of ours is making an application to remain in the UK on the basis that she is the sole support of her baby son, who is British, and Thai of course.

As well as the application and supporting documents, the UKBA say they want "a covering letter explaining the reasons for the application."

We have written the letter below, but before sending everything off would appreciate any comments or suggestions to improve the application and our friends chance of success.

Thank you.

Dear Sir,

Zambrano ruling application; Mrs. Y

I am the mother and sole carer of Z, a British citizen who is wholly dependent upon me. I am applying for a residence card under the above ruling so that I can remain in the UK to care for him.

I entered the UK on the 12^th July 2010 with a 27 month spouse visa valid from 24^th June 2010 as the spouse of Mr X. We lived at (address).

Unfortunately, for reasons which he has never fully explained to me, Mr. X decided in March 2011 that he no longer wanted to continue the marriage, and demanded that I leave his home. This despite the fact that I was now approximately three months pregnant with his child.

I was working at this time for (employer), but had to leave as not only was I pregnant but I had nowhere local to the job where I could live; my wages were not enough to cover rent etc. I moved to stay with Mr. and Mrs. A, friends of mine, at (address), where I am still living.

My son, Z, was born on (date). As his father has no interest in him, I am his sole carer and means of support; with the kind help of Mr. and Mrs. A and other friends.

My local Citizens Advice Bureau has advised me to seek financial support from my husband through the Child Support Agency. I have mentioned this to him and asked him for his assistance, but although he has provided me with some money his attitude is if I return to Thailand with our son then he won't have to pay anything and so is not prepared to help us remain in the UK.

The CSA have advised me that I should first have my status in the UK regularised and residency confirmed before they can help me.

It is my intention to actively seek employment and find accommodation of my own as soon as my future in the UK is decided, assuming that your decision allows me to remain and to work.

(7by7 note: not sure about this next paragraph. Include or leave out?)

I should mention that I have a daughter from a previous relationship with a British man. Her father and I decided that it was in her best interests if she lived in the UK with him and so he has custody of her and supports her. The custody order does allow me access to visit her at week-ends.

I enclose a completed form EEA2 and in support of my application the following documents:-

My passport.

My son's birth certificate.

Letter from Mr. and Mrs A confirming that I may live with them until I can find accommodation of my own.

Last three months bank statements showing my current financial position.

[knortyboy]

7BY7.

You're more knowledgeable than most on this forum including myself on these kind of matters, but this letter seems fine to me, concise whilst still managing to explain the situation.

My thoughts regarding the daughter are to not include that paragraph so as not to confuse matters.

[bifftastic]

I think the paragraph about the other daughter adds nothing helpful.

It may even be detrimental to the case if whoever reviews it decides that the applicant will use whatever means necessary to stay in the UK.

So, in my opinion, only the facts that directly pertain to this particular application should be included.

Oh, and I'm sorry to hear of your friends predicament, it must be awful for her to have been abandoned like that!

I hope that she gets the outcome that she wants,

Biff

[NanLaew]

Initially, I thought that mentioning the daughter from a prior relationship would also be detrimental to the original request. Not so much by causing confusion but maybe indicating a trend of having children without a stable family relationship in place. A matronly or curmudgeonly type reviewing this application may see it as that and deny the application. On the other hand, someone who is aware that a high percentage of younger British family couples, ie. both partners are UK born and bred, haven't bothered to get married have children anyway may look favourably on this application.

The relevance of this prior relationship and offspring to the primary need for the application is very small but as in most dealings with UK Immigration issues, full disclosure is important. If this application needs any support from the reluctant 'new' father, and he is as bloody-minded and callous as we are led to believe, you don't need to have him bring the prior marriage and offspring to the reviewers attention. To counter that possibility, is the first partner (the one caring for the daughter) willing to be at least a character witness or give a good reference for the applicant?

[7by7]

The main reason for mentioning the daughter is that our friend has previously obtained a family visit visa so she could come to the UK to visit her. So the UKBA will have a record that the daughter exists. It was at this time that the formal custody agreement was arranged.

To be honest, a lot of her predicament is of her own making. She was married and in the UK with a spouse visa when she had a 'fling' with her daughter's father. This caused her marriage to break down and her then husband divorced her and she left the UK when her settlement visa expired, leaving the girl with her father.

At the time, I advised her to go for a child access visa, but in the meantime she met and subsequently married her present husband.

Since posting my OP I've had a long conversation with her about her husband. At first he said he would be supportive; be there at the birth and even help her obtain ILR and maybe the child would help them mend their marriage.

Then he said he could not be at the birth because he'd had an accident and was in hospital. She later discovered via a mutual friend that he had in fact gone away with a girlfriend!

He then said that he would take care of the baby and she could return to Thailand. Again he changed his mind and his attitude now is that she can go home and take the boy with her for all he cares; better for him as the CSA wont be chasing him for maintenance.

He has also started to deny that the boy is his. Even his sister says that the boy looks like him, and our friend has suggested a DNA test if he is willing; he isn't.

Although she was aware that he smoked cannabis regularly, he has now, apparently, got heavily into cocaine. So even were he willing to take care of the boy, she would not want to leave her son with him.

All the above is, of course, her side of the story, and I have not heard his. However, I have met him a couple of times, and from the impression I formed of him I am inclined to believe her.

Asking the father of her daughter for a character reference is a good idea, but I'm not sure if he will provide one as he is somewhat resentful of the time his daughter spends away from him with her mother. I think he, too, would like to see her leave the UK so he does not have to share their daughter with her. Still, if we ask he may so no, but if we don't ask he wont say yes.

[7by7]

Well, she's had a reply from the UKBA; refused!

Unfortunately, the documents that have submitted are insufficient to establish that you have a right in accordance with this judgment. This is because you have not provided the following evidence to show that the potential scope of Ruiz Zambrano has been met:

: Evidence the dependent national is a British citizen ( a British passport is required to show this)

: Evidence of relationship

: Adequate evidence of dependency between the applicant and British citizen

I am therefore returning these documents to you with this letter.

This is not EEA decision under the Regulation and so does not attract a right of appeal under regulation 26 of those Regulation. UKBA will now be talking no further action on this matter. However, it will of course remain open for you/ your client to make an application under the Regulations once they have been amened in due course in the response to the Ruiz Zambrano judgment.

The good news is that she can try again, but I'd appreciate some advice on the evidence they say they require.

A passport will be easy enough to get. She will require evidence that her son is British and his birth certificate is not enough for this, but his father's passport details will be and, fortunately, she has those.

Evidence of the relationship? I'd have thought his birth certificate was sufficient for this and hope that this is standard wording. However, I'd appreciate any suggestions for other evidence. She is now receiving child benefit for him, so include the CHB number?

Evidence of dependency is the tricky one. He's an infant whose father is simply not interested in taking care of him. Myself and others can confirm this, but will that be enough? She has been in contact with the CSA who are taking up her case now that she is receiving child benefit; so include copies of correspondence with them?

[VisasPlus]

Well, she's had a reply from the UKBA; refused!

Unfortunately, the documents that have submitted are insufficient to establish that you have a right in accordance with this judgment. This is because you have not provided the following evidence to show that the potential scope of Ruiz Zambrano has been met:

: Evidence the dependent national is a British citizen ( a British passport is required to show this)

: Evidence of relationship

: Adequate evidence of dependency between the applicant and British citizen

I am therefore returning these documents to you with this letter.

This is not EEA decision under the Regulation and so does not attract a right of appeal under regulation 26 of those Regulation. UKBA will now be talking no further action on this matter. However, it will of course remain open for you/ your client to make an application under the Regulations once they have been amened in due course in the response to the Ruiz Zambrano judgment.

The good news is that she can try again, but I'd appreciate some advice on the evidence they say they require.

A passport will be easy enough to get. She will require evidence that her son is British and his birth certificate is not enough for this, but his father's passport details will be and, fortunately, she has those.

Evidence of the relationship? I'd have thought his birth certificate was sufficient for this and hope that this is standard wording. However, I'd appreciate any suggestions for other evidence. She is now receiving child benefit for him, so include the CHB number?

Evidence of dependency is the tricky one. He's an infant whose father is simply not interested in taking care of him. Myself and others can confirm this, but will that be enough? She has been in contact with the CSA who are taking up her case now that she is receiving child benefit; so include copies of correspondence with them?

7x7, I don't really understand UKBA's stance here. What better proof of dependency can there be than this child living with its mother ? Are they saying that the child has someone else to be dependent on, or that it can care for itself ?

I would see if she can obtain documents, such as letters from her GP, hospital, child benefit, CSA, etc, to confirm that she is the "carer" for this child. Is there any court order regarding custody ? I really don't think the UKBA can withstand any close scrutiny on this, as it would seem to fall with the Zambrano determination. Maybe a letter from an immigration solicitor or Citizens Advice Bureau might help.

[7by7]

Custody hasn't been sorted out yet, so no custody documents.

We'll get as many documents together as possible, such as those you suggest.

Apart from the passport as evidence of the boy's citizenship, I too cannot understand their attitude.

Evidence of relationship? If his long form birth certificate proof of this, what is?!!!!!!!!!!!

On a side issue, she is currently in the UK with her spouse visa, which will expire later this year. Two questions, if I may.

1) What would happen if she has not received permission to remain under the Zambrano ruling when her current visa expires?

2) Were she and her husband to divorce before her spouse visa expires and before she has permission to remain because of her son, how would this effect her status in the UK?

[SimonD]

There are several blogs addressing these issues, here is one:

http://www.freemovement.org.uk/2011/10/06/more-on-zambrano/

It seems the sticking point is that UKBA hasn't clearly defined what evidence is required to prove dependency. Some of the responders to the linked item suggest GP letters, sworn affidavits from friends and relatives - basically as much info from all sources as possible.

[VisasPlus]

Custody hasn't been sorted out yet, so no custody documents.

We'll get as many documents together as possible, such as those you suggest.

Apart from the passport as evidence of the boy's citizenship, I too cannot understand their attitude.

Evidence of relationship? If his long form birth certificate proof of this, what is?!!!!!!!!!!!

On a side issue, she is currently in the UK with her spouse visa, which will expire later this year. Two questions, if I may.

1) What would happen if she has not received permission to remain under the Zambrano ruling when her current visa expires?

2) Were she and her husband to divorce before her spouse visa expires and before she has permission to remain because of her son, how would this effect her status in the UK?

Your questions are good questions, and that is why I would suggest contacting an immigration lawyer or the CAB. I'm sure that, if she is pursuing her application, then she will not be required to leave the UK.

[VisasPlus]

There are several blogs addressing these issues, here is one:

http://www.freemovem...re-on-zambrano/

It seems the sticking point is that UKBA hasn't clearly defined what evidence is required to prove dependency. Some of the responders to the linked item suggest GP letters, sworn affidavits from friends and relatives - basically as much info from all sources as possible.

That's good information, SimonD. Thanks. It's interesting to see that the HO might rely on the other ( British ) parent as a person to whom the child ( in this case ) can turn. I don't think this was the intention when the judgment was made, and if the HO go down that road then they are likely to end up in the European courts again.

[7by7]

Thanks, guys.

I'll look at the information on the blog, Simon; thanks.

I'll also get her to talk to CAB.

[7by7]

Update.

My friend is still procrastinating!

She did eventually apply for a passport for him, but the application was returned as the IPS couldn't contact the countersignature and they wanted a new one. Eventually she got round to telling me this, and I countersigned it and she returned it to the IPS last week.

Meanwhile, she finally spoke to CAB and they put her in touch with a solicitor who she saw last week. She has persuaded her to try the domestic violence route to ILR; even though she has very little evidence of DV other than her husband throwing her out of the marital home while she was pregnant. The solicitor reckons this is enough for her to not only be successful but because she is currently living on friend's floors, including ours, and her only income is child benefit and a small amount of maternity pay from her employers, due to cease soon, that she wont have to pay for the ILR application.

I'm not so sure; at least we know a Zambrano application would definitely be free as it comes under the EEA regulations, not the UK immigration rules. I also doubt if she has enough for a DV application to be successful, as most of her evidence is her word, although I think that there is one police report from when she was ejected from the marital home.

The solicitor says an ILR application under the DV rules would be better than a Zambrano application as once she had ILR that would be it, until and unless she applied for citizenship. Whereas the government have still not decided what to do about Zambrano, and so a Zambrano application would only give her temporary leave to remain until they do decide what to do. A very valid point; if the ILR application is successful! If it isn't, I suppose she could then make another Zambrano application, but it is likley that by the time her ILR application is decided her current LTR will have expired.

Any thoughts?

[VisasPlus]

My experience in the UK side of things is limited, but, as I understand it, domestic violence applications are granted in the majority of applications, and granted very quickly. It sounds like a good alternative to a Zambrano application, though. Might be worth contacting an immigration lawyer ?

Edited May 12, 2012 by 7by7
Quote of preceding post removed.

[7by7]

I'm not sure whether the solicitor the CAB put her onto is an immigration specialist or not, but from the reported conversation she does seem to know her stuff and, at the moment, is not charging!

If she can make the ILR application for free, and they do, as you say, seem to be decided quickly, then I can see that she has nothing to lose by making one; and everything to gain if it is successful.

[VisasPlus]

I'm not sure whether the solicitor the CAB put her onto is an immigration specialist or not, but from the reported conversation she does seem to know her stuff and, at the moment, is not charging!

If she can make the ILR application for free, and they do, as you say, seem to be decided quickly, then I can see that she has nothing to lose by making one; and everything to gain if it is successful.

Good luck. Keep us informed.

[bobrussell]

I remember you mentioning this some times ago. I was also investigating the Zambrano route for my sister-in-law as her marriage fell apart because of her husbands gambling habit and bullying behaviour towards his step-daughter.

We used a solicitor in Southampton who helped us put together a good case and it took one week for her ILR on grounds of abuse to be granted.

It should be easy enough to get a British passport for the child and this will make things a lot easier. I agree that the issue with the older child will muddy the waters a bit. There is a perfectly valid visa route for access to the older child.

I have spent a lot of time over the last year dealing with this situation and abuse definitely does not need to be physical. It sounds as if emotional abuse is the issue here and the history ticks all the boxes.

I would suggest contacting Womens Aid for a local refuge because you will probably find an outreach worker will help her immensely! Abuse comes in many forms and this sounds like one of them!

Partners applying for ILR on grounds of abuse are now able to claim benefits such as income support. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this further. I have now been there, done that and got the T shirt. I also have a very full house!!!

Other things! She can claim legal aid and the application may well be free if she has a very low income,

Edited May 14, 2012 by bobrussell

[7by7]

Thanks for the offer, Bob. I'll defer on it for now, if that's ok.

She does seem well fixed at present with the CAB's solicitor, and as her maternity pay stops in two weeks time and then the only income she has will be the son's child benefit and whatever the CSA get from the father, when and if they pull their finger out, then I imagine it will be free.

She's gone to Birmingham for a week to sort out her old job etc., so I wont be seeing her till the weekend. She wont be resuming work as anything except short term accommodation and child care in Birmingham is not possible at the moment.

Even then, she is such a procrastinator that getting her to do anything can be hard work. I've been on at her since she was chucked out to sort this out, and that was now over a year ago!. I've been on at her since November to get his passport sorted so she could reapply under Zambrano, she's only just done that, as I said above. She simply leaves everything to the last minute hoping it will be all right in the end.

To be honest, both my wife and I are getting a little pissed off with her, and if it wasn't for the boy we'd be inclined to leave her to it.

[bobrussell]

It does get very frustrating! My sister-in-law was very inclined to just let everything drift because she found things daunting.

Good luck!

[thaigirllondon]

Unfortunately, for reasons which he has never fully explained to me

Why is that part relevant?

I think you MUST mention her daughter, that is very important as they will know anyway form visa histories etc. BUT it will raise the question in the mind about why she came back (to be near daughter?) and if the 2nd relationship was genuine and what lead to the breakdown. So, that is why I think you should not include the part above. It just seems unlikely that a man, with a pregnant wife would just say, 'please leave' without saying why.

Edited May 17, 2012 by thaigirllondon

[thaigirllondon]

She has a colourful life with three relationships in two years leading to two kids, one from a husband, the other a gig.

Aside, does she have any skills and where is she located? I have helped place scores of Thais in jobs maybe I can help her if she has something to offer.

[thaigirllondon]

Also, has she tried asking her local MP for help with the UKBA?

It does seem unfair to label the man as violent for making her leave the home when 3 months pregnant. Is she a difficult house guest>?

Edited May 17, 2012 by thaigirllondon

[thaigirllondon]

Abuse comes in many forms and this sounds like one of them!

As this is an assumption and has not been edited, can I also assume that this woman does not sound very straight either. Husbands, gigs, cheating on them, enraging all. She sounds like a fallen woman.

[bobrussell]

Fairly reluctant to reply to some of these comments above but abuse does not have to be in the form of physical violence. Much domestic violence is in the form of emotional abuse and this can be more insidious and damaging than a black eye or broken ribs!

I am not interested in making a judgement about this or any other individual as I don't know the person or the facts. I do, however, know that abuse comes in many forms and the UKBA is well aware of this and in my sister-in-laws case were very helpful, very understanding and fast!

Edited May 17, 2012 by bobrussell

[7by7]

"Unfortunately, for reasons which he has never fully explained to me"

Why is that part relevant?

Do you know what a Zambrano application is (without now Googling it)? I suspect not, because if you did you would know why this is relevant.

She has a colourful life with three relationships in two years leading to two kids, one from a husband, the other a gig.

How dare you make such an assumption! Nowhere have I said this. She is not perfect, but as her daughter is 6 years old and her son 8 months you can see how wrong you are.

It does seem unfair to label the man as violent for making her leave the home when 3 months pregnant. Is she a difficult house guest>?

So throwing her out and threatening physical violence if she doesn't leave when she is pregnant with his child doesn't make him violent in your mind. How strange. Maybe it's because you obvioulsy consider her to be below your social standing.

"Abuse comes in many forms and this sounds like one of them!"

As this is an assumption and has not been edited, can I also assume that this woman does not sound very straight either. Husbands, gigs, cheating on them, enraging all. She sounds like a fallen woman.

Again, you are making assumptions based upon your prejudices. If you are typical of what having good social standing means, then thank God I haven't got any!

[thaigirllondon]

She has a colourful life with three relationships in two years leading to two kids, one from a husband, the other a gig.

How dare you make such an assumption! Nowhere have I said this. She is not perfect, but as her daughter is 6 years old and her son 8 months you can see how wrong you are.

I think you said this:

.

o be honest, a lot of her predicament is of her own making. She was married and in the UK with a spouse visa when she had a 'fling' with her daughter's father. This caused her marriage to break down and her then husband divorced her and she left the UK when her settlement visa expired, leaving the girl with her father

So, is seems that one kid is from a husband, the other from a 'fling' aka a 'Gig'. You also said she then met a 2nd husband. So, that makes 3 relationships then.

Yes, I was wrong. Over 2 years not 6. forgive me assumption. Though you must relaise that in polite thai society, this equals 'colourful'. I didnt say golden flower, I said colourful.

Edited May 18, 2012 by 7by7
Font normalised and quote put into quote box. Please read the forum rules.

[bangkockney]

Why didn't she just secure ILR through the access-to-child route suggested to you in the original thread many months ago? It would have been sorted by now and the two routes currently under consideration are messy indeed.

For the record, and having grown up in a violent household, i do not agree that being ejected from the family home is domestic violence. There is no pattern of abuse, no desire for control, just the end of a relationship. The Police clearly were not convinced a crime had taken place and most charities will not define DV within the parameters provided in 7by7's narrative.

[7by7]

A number of posts have been deleted.

It is obvious that Thaigirllondon considers herself to be morally superior to my friend, and probably to me and my wife because we are trying to help her. Yes, my friend's past is not perfect and she has made mistakes, which she readily admits. She is trying to put her life back together, initially for the sake of her daughter, now for the sake of her son as well.

It is not her fault that she fell for a man who promised her a life in the UK, but turned out to be an abusive drug addict once she arrived here. She tried to make it work, but was ejected from her home when she fell pregnant. Not the friendly, temporary type of ejection Thaigirllondon subjected her husband and his friends to, but an abusive, permanent one with threats of violence.

This topic has been dragged way of topic; it is not a discussion about morals, it is about finding the best way for this woman to stay in the UK with her children.

If anyone feels so morally superior to her that they feel she should be judged and found wanting rather than helped, that is their right. But don't parade such self perceived moral superiority here.

Any further posts along those lines in this topic will be deleted and the poster suspended.

The same for any posts not related to a Zambrano application, an ILR application on domestic violence grounds or posts on other ways she could stay in the UK.

A note to members; Do Not Feed The Troll.

[7by7]

Why didn't she just secure ILR through the access-to-child route suggested to you in the original thread many months ago?

You mean this one, 31 months ago and suggested by me, not to me.

The reasons for not doing so are complicated; not least because the friend mentioned in that topic who was offering her accommodation and employment is the man she actually ended up marrying and is the father of her son!

When she met this man in Thailand she did not see him as her ticket to the UK and rush into marriage; she took her time to see where the relationship went. Marriage and her living in the UK with him was his idea, not hers. She did feel a sort of love for him and so chose this route rather than the access to child one as she felt it offered her more security.

Unfortunately for her, she made a wrong choice.

The Police clearly were not convinced a crime had taken place

You are, unfortunately, correct. They told her to go away; which according to my understanding, confirmed by the CAB and solicitor, they should not have done without at least talking to the husband and making a record of her complaint. She does, fortunately, have a witness who accompanied her to the police station at the time.

most charities will not define DV within the parameters provided in 7by7's narrative

The CAB have, as has the solicitor they referred her to.

[thaigirllondon]

Hi

You wrote in the OP

We have written the letter below, but before sending everything off would appreciate any comments or suggestions to improve the application and our friends chance of success

I replied with my comment or suggestion.

"Unfortunately, for reasons which he has never fully explained to me"

Why is that part relevant?

And you responded with

Do you know what a Zambrano application is (without now Googling it)? I suspect not, because if you did you would know why this is relevant

No, I did not know what a Zambrano is, so sorry if my comment needed me to know what it is, you didn't say. I guess most people dont really understand what it is, how it works or the difficulties. So, I am sorry again I just read it that you wanted poster comments I didnt know I had to fully understand Zambrano withouut googling it.

I just thought it didnt seem all that relevant that no reason was offered.

Sorry.

Edited May 19, 2012 by 7by7
Quotes fixed. Please put quotes in a quote box or quote marks " not in bold.