Bangkok Bank Will Not Payback Fraudulent Pos Transactions W/Stolen Atm Card

[Swiss1960]

Will try to give you few ideas of how the system works, of course from a European point of view:

Well, it looks like they are not having a written policy on the specific subject of VISA credit/debit card-related fraud is in place for a reason. I agree on one hand it would make it more clear where the line is drawn on what the bank can and cannot do. But since even VISA company themselves have made clear that non-US bank issued cards do not have the zero-liability policy, then the banks are free to draw their own boundaries.

There are written policies (International => Regional => Local) about how to treat fraudulent transactions. The main question is whether or not the cardholders bank will go beyond and do their best to help it's customer. From what I read, it looks like Thai banks do not go beyond... but remember, even in Europe / USA, issuer banks will first of all look into the complaint and find out, whether it is a genuine complaint or just a case of "I do not want to pay what I got". Swiss banks as an example tend to ask their cardholders to sign an affidavit about the reported "fraudulent" transactions... and we only get about 60% of the affidavits sent back...

I've assumed up until now (and based on reading a couple of forum posts) that it's extremely difficult to get the bank to process chargeback and credit you funds in case the merchant did not deliver the goods.

If you read the general conditions for your credit card, it will most certainly say that disputes between the cardholder and the merchant (i.e. wrong goods, damaged goods, non-delivery) are not covered as fraud transactions and not covered by the zero-liability policy. Generally, your purchase and your transaction was genuine when you made it and Issuing banks can not be held responsible for failures of the merchant (of course, local consumer protection laws like in the UK can override this...). Just imagine, the merchant going bankrupt between your order and the delivery. How can either the Issuer or the Acquirer be held responsible for such a case? If you would receive your money back for such a transaction, then normally it is purely the goodwill of your bank.

It has to do with managing risk.

It has to do with managing risk... and managing the cost associated with it... People working in chargeback departments need 3-5 years of experience until they are fully up to speed for all those special cases. They have the highest salary of all people in the backoffice of a credit card processor. Sometimes, it is just cheaper to either have an unhappy customer whom we tell that his transaction can not be charged back or - for very good customers - write off the transaction ourselves and not even try to do a chargeback.

The only way the card transaction cannot be legitimate is skimmed card or unauthorized use of original card.

Please add phising to your list... too many stupid cardholders giving away their credit card details including passwords over internet or having trojans on their computer with all card security details stored unprotected...

Skimming at ATM's is currently one of the bigger threads in Switzerland. For the normal cardholder, it is almost impossible to see a fake skimming device attached to the original card entry port, it is almost impossible to see mini-cams attached in order to spy your PIN code, it is almost impossible to detect whether a fake keyboard is glued over the original keyboard... few weeks ago, Swiss policy catched an Eastern European gang who had fake keyboards for the three major ATM brands in use in Switzerland...

I said it before: We have invested lot of money into fraud prevention / detection systems. We compare transactions to the normal behaviour of our cardholders and block suspicious transactions. We have 7x24 staff on duty to deal with fraud. When cardholders report fraudulent transactions, we generally first refund the money and then investigate. But the cases are very different, actually almost every case is different:

- Fraudulent cash advance transactions are normally found after genuine transactions at ATM's. There we investigate whether the ATM has been tampered with and if yes, cardholders get the money back without any questions.

- Fraudulent e-commerce transactions are normally found after the cardholder has been phished and that is REALLY his own problem, we send out warnings about phising almost every month. As we can NOT charge back such transactions to the merchant, we generally try to find a 50-50 deal with the cardholder.

- "Fraudulent" transactions are reported from customers, because their wife did see the invoice and asks questions about why he did sleep in such and such hotel or why he did go to such and such red-light district bar... Most of these transactions are not fraudulent, but as we want to help the customer, we allow him to send us the money for these transactions and we will make the invoice look like the transaction was accepted as fraud... good customer service in deed... ;-)

- "Fraudulent" transactions are reported from customers, because they do not recognize the name of the merchant on the invoice. Lot of small merchants process transactions through a central point and there, we have to explain to the customer, which shops he might have been in.

You see, there are so many different cases of potential or real fraud, that it is almost impossible to give examples. But the general issue is, whether their are local comsumer protection laws in favor of the cardholder or not and whether the bank is willing to invest time and money to keep their cardholders happy.

[harrry]

This is an interesting topic and one which has caused me to reconsider how I handle my funds in Thailand.

I am somewhat disappointed in the bank representatives rather testy at times response and the lack of final definitive information as they cannot be bothered spending more time on it.

One thing that got them a lot of business was the presence of Ian here.

This was probably why they were able to get the publicity using TV without being a sponsor.

I hope they change their current attitude as shown by Dave's quote.

Edited November 28, 2011 by harrry

[ianguygil]

.......

Do any other banks have full SMS alerts available?

I think K-bank may have what you are looking for at 20 baht/account/month:

Be informed of changes in deposit balance by SMS alert when the available balance has changed, on an hourly basis. The alert will be made only when the balance has changed from the previous hour, in order to inform customers of every transaction and the latest balance of their deposit account. Details that customers will receive are as follows:

- Account number

- Change of balance

- Available balance

- Time of change

2) Account Alert Package

Be informed of every deposit account transaction by SMS. Details that customers will receive are as follows:

2.1 Be informed of all credit transactions of deposit account, except interest of savings account, from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. Details of transactions posted after 10 p.m. will be sent at 7 a.m. the next day.

2.2 Be informed of all debit transactions of deposit account from 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. Details of transactions posted after 10 p.m. will be sent at 7 a.m. the next day.

2.3 Be informed of available balance of deposit account when there is any change, at the top of every hour, but without information of amount increased or decreased.

2.4 Service users can select a minimum amount that will trigger an SMS alert, or the Bank will send information of every transaction.

........

Complete details here: http://www.kasikornb...tion_Alert.aspx

ian/dave, does BBK offer more thorough sms alert feature, even if paid? One of the most interesting reads from the K-bank page was that you could adjust the alert trigger amount to any amount you desire. BBK has the debit card alert trigger amount hard-coded to 1,000 baht. Can this be increased/decreased upon request?

Hi 4evermaat,

We constantly review our products, including Alerts, and 2012 should see a wide range of new functions for customers in all areas. As you have noted the current offering is free, although some alerts (SMS for example) cost the banks hard cash to provide. If you look at the US And the UK the leading alerts solutions provide a wide range of triggers and delivery options, and it is these we are looking at as a best practice model.

[ianguygil]

This is an interesting topic and one which has caused me to reconsider how I handle my funds in Thailand.

I am somewhat disappointed in the bank representatives rather testy at times response and the lack of final definitive information as they cannot be bothered spending more time on it.

One thing that got them a lot of business was the presence of Ian here.

This was probably why they were able to get the publicity using TV without being a sponsor.

I hope they change their current attitude as shown by Dave's quote.

Harry,

As Dave noted, the reason we are on this forum, largely in our own time, is to help members who are having problems. We are not a first line customer service function, as both of us have full time jobs in the Bank which keep us busy. Any member can send us a PM and, if not disrespectful, it will get a response.

Also, when a Forum member who is a Bank customer raises questions about their acccounts on the forum we are obligated to answer these in a confidential manner. So you will never see us answer with details regarding a specific customer, there are no exceptions to this. This applies to the issues raised by the OP in this thread.

While we have full time jobs which often spill over in to weekends and evenings, some members of the forum seem to have almost nothing else in their life based on the volume of posts. Then they complain when we do not respond to each and every point they raise in what they think is a timely manner. As I have made it clear, certain posters hiding behind multiple alias IDs on this forum have been relentlessly negative. They are not asking questions, they are ranting. And we will not get dragged into this. Dave made a perfectly clear post about our Policy. I think that is enough. I honestly have not read several of the posts in this thread by certain posters as they are too repetitive and rambling.

Even the most prolific poster seems to be too busy to survey the market as I had requested to see what the policies are of the other banks in the Thai market and how our policies compare. The response was that this information was not easy to find, but based on how much time is spent posting that is hard to accept.

Dave did accept that we could do a better point of putting our policy out on BangkokBank.com and I am sure the team is working on publishing this content. If this is also not easy to find on the sites of other banks I would suggest that their customers contact them too and ask them to add it.

If you have specific questions you can PM me or Dave and we will get back to you when we have time. Thanks

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

What Ian calls ranting and negativity is simply asking legitimate questions that any responsible bank cardholder ought to know the answers to...yet BKKB refuses (at least in this forum) to answer...and instead engages in personal attacks...

Let's stick to the subject, and facts, OK... Not another long tirade by a bank rep here aimed simply at avoiding addressing the subject of cardholder liability.

And regarding Ian's request re other Thai banks, I found similar language today regarding cardholder liability until 5 minute after reporting notion on several other Thai bank websites regarding their VISA and MC credit cards, as follows. Curiously, I'm only finding language re credit cards, but liability re debit cards seems harder to find:

Standard Chartered:

The website and liability policy appear to cover both SC's VISA and MC credit card products. The English wording isn't so clear, but their meaning I suspect is the same as the HSBC policy above, i.e., you're liable for everything until 5 minutes after you report to the bank.

Limited Liability

You do not have to worry when your card is lost/stolen because your liability is limited only to charges within 5 minutes of reporting the loss/stolen card.

It's at the very bottom of the following webpage...

http://www.standardc...lassic-card/en/

And the same for their VISA and MC Gold cards (bottom of the page)

http://www.standardc...d-gold-card/en/

Also Siam City Bank's credit cards, both corporate and personal, both VISA and MC:

Your purchase will be protected from unauthorized use of your card in case of loss or theft. The company will be responsible for all cost incurred after 5 minutes receiving cardholder's report of lost/stolen card.

That of course means you the cardholder are held responsible for everything up until 5 minutes after you've reported your card lost or stolen, no matter how much the thief has charged up in the meantime.

The personal card policy info is here:

http://www.scib.co.t...k_creditcard_en

The identical corporate cards policy is here:

http://www.scib.co.t...bankcard-biz_en

It seems at least some other Thai banks -- HSBC, Standard Chartered and Siam City at least -- have posted cardholder liability statements on their websites.

How about Bangkok Bank for both its credit and debit cards?

Edited November 28, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[beano2274]

Just reading about losing an ATM card from a website.

Copied and pasted.

Report the loss of your ATM card to your financial institution at the toll-free telephone number as soon as the card is lost. If someone used the card fraudulently before you called the bank, then you are responsible for the first $50 if the notification was within two business days; otherwise, you are responsible for the first $500 in charges. You are not responsible for any transactions from the time that you notify the card issuer.

Now upon reading the second part, you are asked questions, that you made at the time of opening the account, if you cannot answer these questions correctly at that time, then what?

By the way I am a Bangkok Bank customer, have had one issue with them about an ATM not spitting the money out, but debiting my account, one call to their helpdesk and the money was credited to my account within one working day. But maybe something like the above could be added to the terms and conditions, if not already there.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Beano, that language you quote below is an exact summary of the UNITED STATES regulations pertaining to U.S. issued bank debit cards... and only U.S. bank issued debit cards.

You don't mention where or what source you obtained it from. But I'd highly doubt it has any relevance to Thai banks.

Just reading about losing an ATM card from a website.

Copied and pasted.

Report the loss of your ATM card to your financial institution at the toll-free telephone number as soon as the card is lost. If someone used the card fraudulently before you called the bank, then you are responsible for the first $50 if the notification was within two business days; otherwise, you are responsible for the first $500 in charges. You are not responsible for any transactions from the time that you notify the card issuer.

[beano2274]

There are many ways to fraudulently use another persons information to buy things, trojans on your computer, duplicating cards when paying at paystations, ATMS with the false keypads, or with slot readers.

Whenever I use an ATM machine I give it a good looking over, I do not use online banking either.

[beano2274]

Beano, that language you quote below is an exact summary of the UNITED STATES regulations pertaining to U.S. issued bank debit cards... and only U.S. bank issued debit cards.

You don't mention where or what source you obtained it from. But I'd highly doubt it has any relevance to Thai banks.

Just reading about losing an ATM card from a website.

Copied and pasted.

Report the loss of your ATM card to your financial institution at the toll-free telephone number as soon as the card is lost. If someone used the card fraudulently before you called the bank, then you are responsible for the first $50 if the notification was within two business days; otherwise, you are responsible for the first $500 in charges. You are not responsible for any transactions from the time that you notify the card issuer.

It was taken from ehow money. But if the banks were to put it on their websites or clearly in their terms and conditions, then maybe the confusion would not exist.

Farangs - proactive (always thinking about "what if")

Thais - reactive.

The rules in Thailand are all based on reactive situations, not what if. It is the business culture of Thailand.

Edited November 28, 2011 by beano2274

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Now here's some somewhat different credit card policies from Bank of Ayudhya:

Re their VISA Platinum cards:

At least in the English version, I'm not quite what what it's supposed to mean??? Did something get lost in translation?

Your purchase(s) will be automatically protected from unauthorized usage(s) in case of Card loss or theft by our Worry-free Shopping program. The company will be responsible for all costs incurred up to 48 hours prior to receiving Cardholder’s report of lost/stolen Card. Conditions :

• The Company will be responsible for a maximum at 50,000 Baht per account. The remaining amount (if any) must be borne by the Cardholder.

• The Company will transfer the money to the Cardholder’s credit card account within 45 days from the date of receiving the report.

Second item from the bottom of the page

http://www.krungsricard.com/kccstatic/en/creditcard_exclusive_banking.html

But they have a different policy, more in keeping with other Thai banks, regarding their Gold and Classic VISA and MCs:

Your purchase will be protected from unauthorized use of your card in case of loss or theft. The company will be responsible for all cost incurred after receiving cardholder’s report of lost/stolen card.

That of course means you the cardholder are responsible for any fraudulent charges incurred prior to you reporting the card lost or stolen.

Midway down the page under "Insurance Coverage and Protection"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=reply_post&f=13&t=513620

BTW, just to bring some context back to all of this, in the U.S. regarding U.S. bank issued credit cards, the cardholder liability for lost/stolen credit cards is as follows:

Credit Card Loss or Fraudulent Charges (FCBA). Your maximum liability under federal law for unauthorized use of your credit card is $50. If you report the loss before your credit cards are used, the FCBA says the card issuer cannot hold you responsible for any unauthorized charges. If a thief uses your cards before you report them missing, the most you will owe for unauthorized charges is $50 per card. Also, if the loss involves your credit card number, but not the card itself, you have no liability for unauthorized use.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/credit/cre04.shtm

Comparing cardholder liability for lost/stolen credit card fraudulent charges:

All U.S. issued bank cards: no liability for charges after you report a card lost or stolen, and $50 maximum liability for charges before the card is reported lost or stolen. (And in my experience, the banks often waive the $50 provided the cardholder quickly reports the loss).

Typical Thai bank issued credit card: no liability for charges starting 5 minutes after, or, after the card's been reported lost or stolen. But full cardholder liability for anything that's charged before the card is reported lost or stolen, and that can be a lot of charges in a very short period of time.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

BTW, I shouldn't let this go unaddressed...

Ian above likes to portray me as having some kind of crusade against BKK Bank, which is entirely untrue.

What he knows, but chooses to ignore here, is that I regularly praise and recommend BKKB to other TV members in various banking threads for the good things they offer, such as their international funds transfer services and direct deposit of pensions, and even their Internet banking setup...just the other day in another thread.

And of course, I'm also a veteran customer of BKK Bank. So I have nothing against the institution. (Although I've also spoken out vocally against the Thai banks' policy of 150 baht fees on foreign card ATM withdrawals).

But, when they or any other Thai bank acts in unfair and anti-consumer ways, I don't have any problem in calling a spade a spade. And that's the case with BKKB's handling of cardholder liability information.

It's very unfortunate that BKKB continues to do such a dis-service to its customers by failing to provide such important consumer and customer information regarding cardholder liability for their products.

Apparently in Thailand, they're relatively free to adopt whatever policies they want regarding their debit and credit cards. But at least have the decency to disclose those policies clearly to the public and their cardholders.

That's what this thread is about, period.

[Swiss1960]

What Ian calls ranting and negativity is simply asking legitimate questions that any responsible bank cardholder ought to know the answers to...yet BKKB refuses (at least in this forum) to answer...and instead engages in personal attacks...

Yes, your questions are legitimate and yes, BKKB should answer them... but...

Have you ever thought about the fact that these two members here (Ian and Dave) are answering the questions with regards to their bank's policies in their free time? Have you ever thought about that they might not be working in the relevant departments and thus need to collect information from other departments but might themselves have troubles receiving the information? Have you ever thought about that all their answers here must stay as un-personal as possible, as they might want to help but have no legitimation from their bank to answer questions as bank employees but only as private persons? Did you ever see people from other banks trying to answer questions re their policies here on TV?

As I am working in the credit card area of a Swiss bank, I do fully understand the balancing act those two TV members must do in order to answer questions but not put any liability on their bank for the answers they give. They might be risking their jobs by giving out any specifics that their employer might see as internal use only information...

From some of your postings, I must say that for me, they come across very negative and personal. Please think about what might be the result, if both of them would say "F*** this forum" and would stop giving answers at all??

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Swiss, how Ian and Dave choose to spend their free time is up to them.

However, I do care how BKKB treats its customers..and about whether the bank provides necessary information to them.

The issue isn't about what Ian and Dave do or say here. The issue is about what BKKB is failing to provide to the public and its customers.

In this thread, I've never attacked Ian or Dave personally... I've only raised doubts about the accuracy of some of the info they've provided, and challenged them on why the bank hasn't done better. They seem to take offense at that.

BTW, I didn't start this thread or complain about how the bank handled the problem of fraudulent card charges. Another TV member did. Hopefully, I'm just providing a lot of factual, documented information on the subject that educates everyone here.

Too bad BKKBank isn't doing the same.

The thread is not about me, as much as some would like to detour it that way. The thread is about BKK Bank.

So let's try to stay on subject and leave any personal stuff on the sidelines.

Edited November 28, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[ianguygil]

Please think about what might be the result, if both of them would say "F*** this forum" and would stop giving answers at all??

Hi Swiss1960. It is nice to have somebody else from the industry posting and sharing expertise.

I have actually been contacted by the people who run the forum in the past when posters got too unreasonable and were needlessly negative. They asked that I stay on the forum and not allow myself to be discouraged. It was reassuring to hear from them that they wanted this to remain an open forum and not dominated by who posts the most.

I look forward to reading your posts in the future.

Ian

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just so the BKK Bank folks don't feel lonely, I had a good look at Kasikorn Bank this afternoon...

I couldn't find any info on their website regarding cardholder liability for their credit or debit cards. And when I called them to ask, both the initial CSR and later her supervisor both said they believed the bank didn't have any such info on their web site... So they seem to share in BKK Bank in that regard.

But at least the Kasikorn Bank supervisor I spoke with (after the initial CSR was totally unable to address the issue) was crystal clear and unambiguous on their policy.

For both Kasikorn Bank credit cards and debit cards, the supervisor said the cardholder is normally responsible for whatever fraudulent charges that may occur on a credit or debit card until the cardholder has called the bank to report the loss/theft.

After the cardholder has reported the loss or theft, then they have no liability, the supervisor said.

Thus, the only limits on cardholder liability prior to reporting a lost/stolen card would be:

--for the credit card, the amount of your line of credit, usually 100,000 baht or more.

--for the debit card, the daily POS limit on the card and/or the funds in the account.

Yet another piece of evidence in the mounting pile contradicting BKK Bank rep Dave's prior assertion here that "Bangkok Bank, indeed all banks operating Visa cards worldwide, assess cases according to Visa's Cardholder Zero liability Policy."

Of course, again contrary to Dave's post, the BKK Bank supervisor I spoke with on the phone the other day likewise said, for fraudulent purchases prior to a credit or debit card being reported stolen/loss, that BKK Bank would try to get the merchant to return the funds. But if the merchant wouldn't do so, the bank itself wouldn't refund the fraudulent amount to the cardholder.

That certainly doesn't sound like "zero liability" to me.

Edited November 28, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Daveroc]

I have watched over the past few days parts of my post being used in the various discussions . It is not my normal area of operation but as stated in that post we are working to get the information onto the Website. From what I have seen so far I am sure that the wording will reflect other Thai banks policy in this regard. The debate will then possible policy versus application of policy.

For the record my original post stated

Bangkok Bank, indeed all banks operating Visa cards worldwide, assess cases according to Visa's Cardholder Zero liability Policy. The policy protects cardholders worldwide from unathorised transactions, unless there is provable evidence of cardholder negligence fraud or collusion. The policy does not apply to ATM transactions which are PIN based.

What appears to be being missed in the discussion is the last portion “unless there is provable evidence of cardholder negligence, fraud or collusion.

In assessing each case we endeavor to determine where liability should lie. If a cardholder loses the card, say late at night, or lends it to someone or misplaces the card without actual being sure it was stolen then this could be deemed to be negligent. We will not provide examples of cases as this is a breach of confidentiality. however the area of personal responsiblity has to be taken into the equation. To not do so leaves any organisation wide open to signifiacant claims.

At this point I am limited as to what further I can add without opening the thread up to a further 5 pages of comment.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

And more of the same from Siam Commercial Bank, highlighting the risks Thai bankcard holders here face in the event of lost or stolen cards.

Siam Commercial does have a terms and conditions policy on its website that includes its provisions on cardholder liability for lost and stolen cards. The policy is specific to credit cards, but the CSR I spoke with on the phone said the same policy applies to their debit cards.

And not surprisingly, it's the same as most of the other Thai banks thus far and has nothing to do with "zero liability":

At SCB, the customer is responsible for all fraudulent charges up to their card limits incurred prior to reporting the bank lost or stolen to the bank. The CSR said the customer liability ends once they've called the bank, but SCB's written policy uses the same "until 5 minutes after" calling to report that a lot of the other Thai banks' policies seem to use.

The SCB policy is a PDF files that includes a long Thai version at the top, and then the comparable English version underneath.

The SCB policy document is here:

http://www.scbcredit...m/condition.pdf

And the pertinent parts read:

4. The cardholder must keep the card and the personal identification Number code (PIN) with particular care and must not lose the credit card. The Card and the PIN code may under no

circumstances be passed to others or made accessible in any other way by any actions that

cause others to possess the card or result in other people obtaining the pin code. In any

circumstances, if the cardholder does not follow the terms, and the card is used for fraudulent

proposes by others, using the card and/or the PIN code, or counterfeiting the card, or forging the signature of the cardholder, or using any other methods to induce merchants to accept the credit card instead of cash or allow them to withdraw money, the promisor agrees to bear sole responsibility for the transactions conducted using the card and to compensate the bank or others for any damages arising from the fraudulent use.

5. The cardholder has the right to cancel his/her credit card at any time. He/she has the right to get annual membership fee refunded for the time the services are not used. If the credit card is lost or stolen, or the cardholder wishes to cancel the card or suspend the card temporarily for any reason, the cardholder must contact the customer service of the bank immediately by telephone

or other communication tools, or by other means, which similarly communicate with the customer service of the bank. In case the card is lost or stolen, the cardholder must inform the local officers at the scene, and bring the evidence of notice to the bank with a confirmation letter that

confirms the loss, or theft of the card in written form. When the bank receives such notice, the Bank will notify the loss or theft, and/or cancellation and/or suspension of the card to the group who accept credit card payment instead of cash payment for products and services (referred as "stores"). Anyhow, the promisor still needs to be responsible for debts arising from the use of the card during 5 minutes from the time the bank has been notified by the cardholder. In addition, the promisor agrees to pay a fee caused by cancellation or suspension of the card to the bank.

BTW, that's the first time I've seen mention from a Thai bank about charging a fee for canceling a lost or stolen card.

Although, on its webpage regarding lost and stolen cards, BKK Bank says that it will charge its cardholders a 200 baht fee for issuing a new card.

Those are nice touches... Get your bank cards stolen, you're likely liable for all charges within your card limits incurred prior to your reporting to the bank. And then the bank turns around and charges you a fee for canceling the old card or reissuing the new card.

Edited November 28, 2011 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

And since member Lomatopo was asking on this subject earlier... here's the SCB info on setting debit card use limits:

According to their CSR, SCB customers can set their debit card limits either by calling the bank or via the bank's ATMs. But she said you can't set those via online banking.

According to the CSR, the the default debit card amounts currently for newly issued cards are 20,000 baht per day for ATM withdrawal and 20,000 baht per day for POS purchases, with each limit operating separately.

But I had an older account, and discovered my limit (which I'd never set or changed as best I recall) for ATM and POS was 50,000 baht per day, which I had the bank lower substantially during that call.

According to the CSR, SCB customers can set their ATM and POS limits on their debit cards at any amount from basically nothing up to a maximum of 200,000 baht per day. But whatever amount you select, it will be the same amount for both POS and ATM.

[fletchsmile]

Yet another piece of evidence in the mounting pile contradicting BKK Bank rep Dave's prior assertion here that "Bangkok Bank, indeed all banks operating Visa cards worldwide, assess cases according to Visa's Cardholder Zero liability Policy."

Of course, again contrary to Dave's post, the BKK Bank supervisor I spoke with on the phone the other day likewise said, for fraudulent purchases prior to a credit or debit card being reported stolen/loss, that BKK Bank would try to get the merchant to return the funds. But if the merchant wouldn't do so, the bank itself wouldn't refund the fraudulent amount to the cardholder.

That certainly doesn't sound like "zero liability" to me.

"Zero liability" and "Zero liability Policy" are not interchangeable terms. The latter is a policy that applies according to stipulated terms and conditions. These set out when zero liability applies and when it doesn't. Visa has their terms and conditions, as this is a contract. If a cardholder does not act according to the terms and conditions of the policy then they are not fulfilling their part of the contract, so cannot expect zero liability as they have not fulfilled their part of the contract.

To have a blanket zero liability with complete freedom for the cardholder to do whatever they want and whenever they want to, including act negligently or fraudulently would create the risk of moral hazard. Hence follow the rules and you'll understand in which cases you will have zero liability and in which cases you won't have zero liability....

Perhaps worth adding that a bank could use its discretion to compensate the cardholder even when neither Visa nor the bank is obliged to do so. This could likely account for the discrepancies in various people's stories, as people mix up a bank using its discretion as a goodwill gesture and the actual rules. Some banks will naturally be easier going than others in their discretion and extension of goodwill

BTW to further muddy the water there various bodies in any country and various local laws could add their own additional rules to further protect consumers. So don't mix up Visa rules and policies with bank rules and policies and local regs. Bear in mind also the average bank clerk is not issued with 3 or more set of rules. They simply get the banks policy which incorporates the other rules, and will not necessarily know this is a BOT policy, this is a bank policy, this is a Visa policy and so on...

Edited November 28, 2011 by fletchsmile

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

In assessing each case we endeavor to determine where liability should lie. If a cardholder loses the card, say late at night, or lends it to someone or misplaces the card without actual being sure it was stolen then this could be deemed to be negligent. We will not provide examples of cases as this is a breach of confidentiality. however the area of personal responsiblity has to be taken into the equation. To not do so leaves any organisation wide open to signifiacant claims.

Thanks for clarifying that one issue, Dave, amid all the others left unclarified...

I had raised in my prior response to you that, based on your prior post, you used language that seemed to be opening up the prospect that a cardholder could be deemed "negligent" by the bank just for losing their card. And now you have taken that a step further, so I guess I'd better be sure to never lose my BKK Bank cards "say late at night."

If what you say about BKK Bank's hopefully coming policy is true -- "From what I have seen so far I am sure that the wording will reflect other Thai banks policy in this regard" -- then the language likely will mirror what all the other banks basically have been reporting above.

If someone has a lost or stolen Thai bank card, they're held responsible for all charges up to their card limits prior to reporting the loss/theft to the bank.

Frankly, for all the other Thai bank policies I've posted above, they don't really take personal responsibility into the equation. And they're not leaving themselves open to significant claims either, to use your language.

It really doesn't matter to the other banks, for their policies, under what circumstances the card was lost or stolen. For the other Thai banks as I've listed above, the cardholder is responsible up to their card limits until AFTER they've reported the loss/theft, period.

In the end, if the bank ever makes public it's policy, I suspect that's what we're likely to hear from BKK Bank as well.

[lomatopo]

Note to self: If card is lost make sure it is not "late at night".

Sheesh, why even drop that caveat?

[Daveroc]

I am not looking to get into a wordsmithing exercise with you. I suspect you will hands down. From what posts I have read most of the comment has been on the policies that have been published to date and a couple of phone calls. However what is not evident is any evidence as to how each bank actually applies the policies. I have no such evidence myself but my general industry knowledge gathered over 4 decades would suggest to me that all Banks look at personal responsibilty in some shape or form when assessing claims.

[Swiss1960]

And not surprisingly, it's the same as most of the other Thai banks thus far and has nothing to do with "zero liability":

Sorry, John in BKK, but now i HAVE to ask you to really read what the US zero liability policy says, see http://usa.visa.com/personal/security/visa_security_program/zero_liability.html and read the footnotes:

Individual provisional credit amounts are provided on a provisional basis and may be withheld, delayed, limited, or rescinded by your issuer based on factors such as gross negligence or fraud, delay in reporting unauthorized use, investigation and verification of claim and account standing and history. You must notify your financial institution immediately of any unauthorized use. Transaction at issue must be posted to your account before provisional credit may be issued. For specific restrictions, limitations and other details, please consult your issuer.

Do you realize how many if's wnd when's and reservations these footnotes contain? May be withheld for delay in reporting, i.e. delay reporting loss...Policy maybe not valid based on specific restrictions defined by your issuer... By no way this is a zero liability policy, those footnotes put you in almost exactly the same situation as a Thai cardholder.

And it is in line with i.e. Swiss credit card general conditions, as one example I quote this one:

Until the Card is blocked, the Cardholder is responsible for all transactions authorized in accordance with usage policy. The risks arising out of misuse of the Card are thus borne by the Cardholder unless a complaint is filed within the stipulated period. Where a complaint is filed within the stipulated period, Bank shall assume responsibility for loss or damage resulting from misuse of the Card by third parties, provided the Cardholder has in all respects complied with the General Terms and Conditions (in particular the duties of care) and to the extent that he/she is not in any way to blame.

Interesting, is it? In no way are Thai policies different from policies in other countries. It might be that Thai banks have less interest in resoving fraud (customer focus might be lower), but the rules are not that different from the rest of the world.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

"Zero liability" and "Zero liability Policy" are not interchangeable terms. The latter is a policy that applies according to stipulated terms and conditions. These set out when zero liability applies and when it doesn't. Visa has their terms and conditions, as this is a contract. If a cardholder does not act according to the terms and conditions of the policy then they are not fulfilling their part of the contract, so cannot expect zero liability as they have not fulfilled their part of the contract.

Fletch, I think I'm more familiar with the details and operation of VISA's zero liability policy than you, including the fact that VISA itself specifically says that policy only applies to U.S. issued bank cards... and includes specific exceptions for intentional fraud and negligence.

Keep in mind, totally apart from the VISA policy, there are U.S. banking regulations that apply nationwide that limit debit cardholder liability to $50 as long as they report the loss/theft within two business days of discovering it.

In actual practice, U.S. banks don't, I'm pretty safe to say, start evaluating negligence on the part of cardholders under the law or policy based on, in Dave's example, what time of day/night a person lost the card...or whether they lost it and don't know where it is.

I think the main consideration that comes into play in those circumstances is how promptly the cardholder reports the loss/theft from when they'd have any basis for learning of it. As a general rule, for honest people like you and me, and unless there were some clearly unusual circumstances, no U.S. bank's likely going to hassle you on that issue. There's a national policy, and they follow it or risk problems.

I'd certainly rather operate under that kind of policy that having Dave from BKK Bank quizzing me about what hour of the evening my card was stolen, or what color clothes I was wearing at the time, or what part of town I was frequenting when the card was lost... etc etc.

[Daveroc]

"Zero liability" and "Zero liability Policy" are not interchangeable terms. The latter is a policy that applies according to stipulated terms and conditions. These set out when zero liability applies and when it doesn't. Visa has their terms and conditions, as this is a contract. If a cardholder does not act according to the terms and conditions of the policy then they are not fulfilling their part of the contract, so cannot expect zero liability as they have not fulfilled their part of the contract.

Fletch, I think I'm more familiar with the details and operation of VISA's zero liability policy than you, including the fact that VISA itself specifically says that policy only applies to U.S. issued bank cards... and includes specific exceptions for intentional fraud and negligence.

Keep in mind, totally apart from the VISA policy, there are U.S. banking regulations that apply nationwide that limit debit cardholder liability to $50 as long as they report the loss/theft within two business days of discovering it.

In actual practice, U.S. banks don't, I'm pretty safe to say, start evaluating negligence on the part of cardholders under the law or policy based on, in Dave's example, what time of day/night a person lost the card...or whether they lost it and don't know where it is.

I think the main consideration that comes into play in those circumstances is how promptly the cardholder reports the loss/theft from when they'd have any basis for learning of it. As a general rule, for honest people like you and me, and unless there were some clearly unusual circumstances, no U.S. bank's likely going to hassle you on that issue. There's a national policy, and they follow it or risk problems.

I'd certainly rather operate under that kind of policy that having Dave from BKK Bank quizzing me about what hour of the evening my card was stolen, or what color clothes I was wearing at the time, or what part of town I was frequenting when the card was lost... etc etc.

You have over the past couple of days questioned

why no response. It appears whatever I try to put in to clarify is fodder for you. I give up. We will post the policy in due course and leave you to carry on the crusade.

Dave

[beano2274]

TallGuyJohninBangkok, it seems you have nothing else to do than to sit at the computer all day and use Thaivisa. The 2 guys at the Bank, have other more important jobs to do, they kindly use some of their own time to answer questions on here, in my company there are only a few Internet PCs to stop people using it all day long and not doing their work. Maybe these two guys have the same kind of company policy, although I believe Ian works in the IT department so he has his means and ways.

I am sure that somewhere on a piece of paper that we, those who bank with BKK Bank all signed, is a small sentence which says something about this whole thing, and guess what, all of us accepted the terms and conditions at the time we opened our bank accounts. I have done it and you have done it, signed something without reading the very small print.

I realise you have been here a number of years but we all know you will always get variations in the answers you receive, even if the people are sat next to each other.

At the end of the day, we are responsible for the safety of our cards, I never let mine out of my sight if I use it to pay for things (which I have only done once).

I bet half of the people in the Forum who have accounts with banks do not even know the number to call if they lost their card in the evening. Also some people might not be aware that they have lost their card for a long time afterwards, again another big problem.

Edited November 28, 2011 by beano2274

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Interesting, is it? In no way are Thai policies different from policies in other countries. It might be that Thai banks have less interest in resoving fraud (customer focus might be lower), but the rules are not that different from the rest of the world.

Swiss, I've already addressed your issues about the VISA policy above in my response to Fletch, and as to how that policy, along with the U.S. law, operates for U.S. issued cards. You're barking up the wrong tree on that.

As for your comment above that -- "In no way are Thai policies different from policies in other countries -- that's clearly not the case in comparing Thai and U.S. practices.

Most of the Thai bank policies I've posted on above in this thread don't care about negligence or the circumstances of the loss at all, or whether the loss is reported quickly or not. They simply say, the cardholder is responsible for all fraudulent charges up to their card limit until AFTER they report the loss/theft to the bank, whenever that time is.

That approach is nowhere even remotely similar to either the VISA U.S. policy or U.S. laws on the subject either for credit or debit cards.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I am sure that somewhere on a piece of paper that we, those who bank with BKK Bank all signed, is a small sentence which says something about this whole thing, and guess what, all of us accepted the terms and conditions at the time we opened our bank accounts. I have done it and you have done it, signed something without reading the very small print.

Beano, apparently you missed the post earlier in this thread where another TV member copied and posted in its entirety the BKK Bank document that came with newly issued bank cards. It had absolutely no language in it regarding cardholder liability for lost/stolen cards.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I am not looking to get into a wordsmithing exercise with you. I suspect you will hands down. From what posts I have read most of the comment has been on the policies that have been published to date and a couple of phone calls. However what is not evident is any evidence as to how each bank actually applies the policies. I have no such evidence myself but my general industry knowledge gathered over 4 decades would suggest to me that all Banks look at personal responsibilty in some shape or form when assessing claims.

As many of us know very well, Thai banks have their policies, and then what they do in practice doesn't always match those policies.

So given that most of the banks for which we've seen info thus far all pretty much have policies that hold cardholders liable for everything up to their card limits until AFTER they report to the bank, I'm wondering what exactly that discretion based on "personal responsibility" would be?

Yes we have a bank policy that says you're liable for the fraudulent cards because they occurred before you called us. But since you're dressed well today, or because you lost your card at noon instead of late at night, or because you kicked up a fuss on ThaiVisa, we're going to ignore our policy and go easy on you today???

BTW, of all the various bank reps I've spoken to on the phone, and some of them at some length, not one has even hinted or suggested that they'd vary from their policy under any circumstances. Maybe they would, but I wouldn't want to be betting my bank account balance on it.

[beano2274]

I am sure that somewhere on a piece of paper that we, those who bank with BKK Bank all signed, is a small sentence which says something about this whole thing, and guess what, all of us accepted the terms and conditions at the time we opened our bank accounts. I have done it and you have done it, signed something without reading the very small print.

Beano, apparently you missed the post earlier in this thread where another TV member copied and posted in its entirety the BKK Bank document that came with newly issued bank cards. It had absolutely no language in it regarding cardholder liability for lost/stolen cards.

apparently when I opened my account all the documentation was in Thai, and not in English, and I suspect a lot of others were too. These were the original terms and conditions I signed and I accepted them by signing the form, so did many others.

I am liable for losing my card, and I know that I have to cancel my card as soon as possible.

The big joke in Thailand is that people get new cards every week and do not sign them, I have been in the queue at Tops, and the person in front of me has paid with a credit card, on checking the signatures the cashier noticed no signature, so she asked the person to sign the card, then checked the signatures, of course they matched. A photo picture on the card is what is required, a little bit more security for one and all.

Edited November 28, 2011 by beano2274