Underground Tunnel Suggested As Solution To Bangkok's Flood Problems

[noitom]

Maybe some one saw this & thought - heck we can have one of those if it`s good enough for the Japanese !

Go to the 7 minute mark to see the anti flood device for Tokyo

http://www.vice.com/.../tokyo-rising-1

Thanks for posting this - very informative. I doubt that the Thais would have had the attention span to reach the 7 minute mark or watch the clip in its entirety from that point.

[monkfish]

A copy of the KL solution, 20 times bigger, impractical and TOO BL00DY EXPENSIVE!!!

Another new big project to line up officials pocket

Agreed probably better to forget the project and just build some more "Dust Free Roads" instead.

[monkfish]

Here is a nice tunnel build through Rock

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel

[bino]

Off course yes it's possible for water to flow uphill! don't you not know that?

It's really basic 3rd grade Physics! Even Romans 2000 years ago new about it.

To put it in layman's terms and compare you can use the same theory to syphon Petrol from one car to another with a long tube.

Look up Syphon in wikipedia to understand how it works.

Well here I found a basic explanation to help you understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syphon

Beg to differ. A syphon will definitely lift the water up over a hill, or up the filler tube of a petrol tank, but it won't work unless the discharge end of the syphon is lower than the intake.

Specifically, quoted from the wiki link you posted, "discharged at a level lower than the surface of the reservoir". As such, a syphon won't lift the water from a ten KM deep source up to the surface. It would lift the water 10 km, but would need to discharge it at a level greater than 10 km.

Edited December 1, 2011 by bino

[monkfish]

Off course yes it's possible for water to flow uphill! don't you not know that?

It's really basic 3rd grade Physics! Even Romans 2000 years ago new about it.

To put it in layman's terms and compare you can use the same theory to syphon Petrol from one car to another with a long tube.

Look up Syphon in wikipedia to understand how it works.

Well here I found a basic explanation to help you understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syphon

Beg to differ. A syphon will definitely lift the water up over a hill, or up the filler tube of a petrol tank, but it won't work unless the discharge end of the syphon is lower than the intake.

Specifically, quoted from the wiki link you posted, "discharged at a level lower than the surface of the reservoir". As such, a syphon won't lift the water from a ten KM deep source up to the surface. It would lift the water 10 km, but would need to discharge it at a level greater than 10 km.

Well all is good until the last sentence.

Starting point just has to be higher than the ending point end of story that's all!

If water goes 1000km below ground its the same! as long as the starting point is higher.

Also just because the water goes down 10km below Sea level doesn't mean it has to be released 10Km above sea level!! It can be released at any height as long as it's below starting level.

I'm not here to teach Physics but it seams a lot of members really aren't that well educated! So probably better they let there opinion be on what is possible and is not possible. Otherwise they is just going to maker themselves look a bit uneducated.

Also I can't find where in the article where it states the the tunnel will be 10km deep where does that come from??

P.s. does anyone have a link to the original tunnel story? I was away and didn't haver time to read it.

Can't seem to find it any more.

Edited December 1, 2011 by monkfish

[OzMick]

Off course yes it's possible for water to flow uphill! don't you not know that?

It's really basic 3rd grade Physics! Even Romans 2000 years ago new about it.

To put it in layman's terms and compare you can use the same theory to syphon Petrol from one car to another with a long tube.

Look up Syphon in wikipedia to understand how it works.

Well here I found a basic explanation to help you understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syphon

Beg to differ. A syphon will definitely lift the water up over a hill, or up the filler tube of a petrol tank, but it won't work unless the discharge end of the syphon is lower than the intake.

Specifically, quoted from the wiki link you posted, "discharged at a level lower than the surface of the reservoir". As such, a syphon won't lift the water from a ten KM deep source up to the surface. It would lift the water 10 km, but would need to discharge it at a level greater than 10 km.

Well all is good until the last sentence.

Starting point just has to be higher than the ending point end of story that's all!

If water goes 1000km below ground its the same! as long as the starting point is higher.

Also just because the water goes down 10km below Sea level doesn't mean it has to be released 10Km above sea level!! It can be released at any height as long as it's below starting level.

I'm not here to teach Physics but it seams a lot of members really aren't that well educated! So probably better they let there opinion be on what is possible and is not possible. Otherwise they is just going to maker themselves look a bit uneducated.

Also I can't find where in the article where it states the the tunnel will be 10km deep where does that come from??

P.s. does anyone have a link to the original tunnel story? I was away and didn't haver time to read it.

Can't seem to find it any more.

Suchatchavee stated that the proposed tunnel, stretching 100 kilometers with a diameter of 24 meters and a depth of ten kilometers, ..........................

[monkfish]

Off course yes it's possible for water to flow uphill! don't you not know that?

It's really basic 3rd grade Physics! Even Romans 2000 years ago new about it.

To put it in layman's terms and compare you can use the same theory to syphon Petrol from one car to another with a long tube.

Look up Syphon in wikipedia to understand how it works.

Well here I found a basic explanation to help you understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syphon

Beg to differ. A syphon will definitely lift the water up over a hill, or up the filler tube of a petrol tank, but it won't work unless the discharge end of the syphon is lower than the intake.

Specifically, quoted from the wiki link you posted, "discharged at a level lower than the surface of the reservoir". As such, a syphon won't lift the water from a ten KM deep source up to the surface. It would lift the water 10 km, but would need to discharge it at a level greater than 10 km.

Well all is good until the last sentence.

Starting point just has to be higher than the ending point end of story that's all!

If water goes 1000km below ground its the same! as long as the starting point is higher.

Also just because the water goes down 10km below Sea level doesn't mean it has to be released 10Km above sea level!! It can be released at any height as long as it's below starting level.

I'm not here to teach Physics but it seams a lot of members really aren't that well educated! So probably better they let there opinion be on what is possible and is not possible. Otherwise they is just going to maker themselves look a bit uneducated.

Also I can't find where in the article where it states the the tunnel will be 10km deep where does that come from??

P.s. does anyone have a link to the original tunnel story? I was away and didn't haver time to read it.

Can't seem to find it any more.

Suchatchavee stated that the proposed tunnel, stretching 100 kilometers with a diameter of 24 meters and a depth of ten kilometers, ..........................

You are right!

10Km is a bit extreme!

I would suspect either he or the media got the numbers wrong,

but being no expert on tunnel building and simply don't know what's possible.

Better wait for more accurate infos i think

But at lest are we agree its possible to make water flow uphill.

Edited December 1, 2011 by monkfish

[Jdietz]

How can this not be satire from 'Not the Nation'? Even by Thai standards it's just too comical; 'Hey let's build the worlds' third longest tunnel in two years!'

It took them 6 years and 11 billion baht to build the 10.5km drainage canal from Svarnabhumi.

Funny, after reading the first sentence I scrolled down to the bottom to find out if it had a notthenation source...

Edited December 1, 2011 by Jdietz

[ratcatcher]

The deepest tunnels on earth (in earth?) are located in Tau Tona Mine (Western Deep Shaft 3) at 3.9km deep in West Wits goldfields, near Carletonville, Gauteng, South Africa. Rock face temperatures reach 60C.

Quote" Suchatchavee stated that the proposed tunnel, stretching 100 kilometers with a diameter of 24 meters and a depth of ten kilometers, would be built under the Outer Ring Road in eastern Bangkok from Bang Pa-in District in Ayutthaya to Samut Prakan Province".

"The upper deck would be used as a road under normal conditions while the lower deck would be used as a drainage channel"

It's going to be quite hot down there for the average motorist wouldn't you think?

How does Thailand plan to construct a tunnel 10km under the earths surface? 10 kilometers deep? Is this just more poor reporting or what? Maybe this engineer has a plan to mine blue cheese on the moon?

[scorecard]

The deepest tunnels on earth (in earth?) are located in Tau Tona Mine (Western Deep Shaft 3) at 3.9km deep in West Wits goldfields, near Carletonville, Gauteng, South Africa. Rock face temperatures reach 60C.

Quote" Suchatchavee stated that the proposed tunnel, stretching 100 kilometers with a diameter of 24 meters and a depth of ten kilometers, would be built under the Outer Ring Road in eastern Bangkok from Bang Pa-in District in Ayutthaya to Samut Prakan Province".

"The upper deck would be used as a road under normal conditions while the lower deck would be used as a drainage channel"

It's going to be quite hot down there for the average motorist wouldn't you think?

How does Thailand plan to construct a tunnel 10km under the earths surface? 10 kilometers deep? Is this just more poor reporting or what? Maybe this engineer has a plan to mine blue cheese on the moon?

And , I say again, where's the detailed research, relevant future assumptions, proper study of relevant historical data, projections of economic growth and consideration of the location of that growth, etc?

[ajarnpot]

The tunnel however likely will not solve BKK problem of being lower than high tide level of sea.

Quie possible though that were the unlikely tunnel ever to be built it may flood Northern Thailand with salt water, could be interesting though,

Possibly some tidal defence is required and intelligent water management, it's not as if we don't read the same headlines every year, North faces flooding!!!! PM visits flood stricken peasents to rub their noses in it.

[cloudhopper]

Another stunning display of ignorance by an academic in what passes for higher education here.

[toybits]

I believe the money would be better spent on relocating the capital to a higher location. Money spend on this project will just go down the drain - ha ha... No pun intended.

[rakman]

Here is a nice tunnel build through Rock

http://en.wikipedia....ard_Base_Tunnel

While it's true TBM's Tunnel Boring Machines work well in rock, the soil under Bangkok is mostly compacted silt. And I expect waterlogged silt.

A TBM would have difficulty unless grout was pumped in front and allow to set.

A two deck tunnel (upper one for traffic when not needed for flood control) would be under the water line (BKK is about 6 m above sea level) assuming the tunnel is ~100 m below the surface. So sealing it when not needed for flood control would be problematic, and it would have to be pumped out to reuse it, plus cleaning of all the silt left from the river water.

Personally, I wouldn't drive in it.

[Morgo]

This plan to redirect food water is just as ridiculous as using boat propellers to speed up river flow.

The Netherlands solution is also a non-starter. The reason is that the annual rainfall in Thailand is much greater. Rainfall events exceeding 100mm per day are not uncommon, and intensities exceeding 100mm per hour are not unknown. The pumping capacity to deal with these volumes of water would have to be massive. (Information from the November Newsletter Insight "The Bangkok Floods - Reflections on the Waters" The Centre for Non-Traditional Security (NTS).)

[Bakseedaa]

Sweet, a super huge sewer tunnel packed tight with garbage.

If only I were PM (well, apart from making Suharto and Marcos look like amateurs in terms of how much I'd be putting away on the side into my accounts all over the planet).... it'd be as simple as allocating the current street waste clearing teams more shifts in clearing out the waterways all the time, all year round. If we were to get 'crazy' with it... maybe at most create a few hundred more 300 Baht a day wage sewer/klong cleaning crew jobs. Much less than 200 Billion in cash outflow, I promise.

The same way as all beach towns should have permanent crews sweeping the beaches of garbage every single day: super easy to do, and I'd bet we could quantify the returns in local and international travel revenue.

At present they use prisoners to clean out the drains and sewers... gangs of them, thus saving the 300 bahts per day per man , and there sure is plenty of prisoners willing to take this job...

[Soutpeel]

The deepest tunnels on earth (in earth?) are located in Tau Tona Mine (Western Deep Shaft 3) at 3.9km deep in West Wits goldfields, near Carletonville, Gauteng, South Africa. Rock face temperatures reach 60C.

Quote" Suchatchavee stated that the proposed tunnel, stretching 100 kilometers with a diameter of 24 meters and a depth of ten kilometers, would be built under the Outer Ring Road in eastern Bangkok from Bang Pa-in District in Ayutthaya to Samut Prakan Province".

"The upper deck would be used as a road under normal conditions while the lower deck would be used as a drainage channel"

It's going to be quite hot down there for the average motorist wouldn't you think?

How does Thailand plan to construct a tunnel 10km under the earths surface? 10 kilometers deep? Is this just more poor reporting or what? Maybe this engineer has a plan to mine blue cheese on the moon?

10km down is absolute BS, as you have pointed out Western Deeps 3 is the deepest mine in the world at just on 4km down, although i havent worked in the SA mining industry for many years, I would suggest the technnology is just not there to get even close to 10km even for commerical deep level hard rock mining.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Soutpeel

[gennisis]

This plan to redirect food water is just as ridiculous as using boat propellers to speed up river flow.

The Netherlands solution is also a non-starter. The reason is that the annual rainfall in Thailand is much greater. Rainfall events exceeding 100mm per day are not uncommon, and intensities exceeding 100mm per hour are not unknown. The pumping capacity to deal with these volumes of water would have to be massive. (Information from the November Newsletter Insight "The Bangkok Floods - Reflections on the Waters" The Centre for Non-Traditional Security (NTS).)

Why not just dredge the existing river and make it 10 mt deeper?. It would double the capacity of the existing drainage flow,so as long as the existing canals are exhausted to the river...no overflows to the land.

[allan michaud]

"and a depth of ten kilometers"

Is that a misprint or is it actually realistic?

They've obviously crunched some numbers...

Ha sounds more like it was planned over a few bottles of beer. I am not certain government officials here are clever enough to "crunch numbers", except when it comes to kickbacks of course"

[lannarebirth]

This plan to redirect food water is just as ridiculous as using boat propellers to speed up river flow.

The Netherlands solution is also a non-starter. The reason is that the annual rainfall in Thailand is much greater. Rainfall events exceeding 100mm per day are not uncommon, and intensities exceeding 100mm per hour are not unknown. The pumping capacity to deal with these volumes of water would have to be massive. (Information from the November Newsletter Insight "The Bangkok Floods - Reflections on the Waters" The Centre for Non-Traditional Security (NTS).)

Why not just dredge the existing river and make it 10 mt deeper?. It would double the capacity of the existing drainage flow,so as long as the existing canals are exhausted to the river...no overflows to the land.

Because its outlet would be below sea level and result in very little outflow. It would end up being just a very long, narrow reservoir.

[wlcart]

Obviously 10KM is not correct, that would basically be impossible.

I teach at a one of the more respected university here in Thailand and I have asked my students what is the circumference of the earth. Most of them guess way off, answers like 500KM.

Measurements like distance, time and money are much more flexible her in the LOS.

Edited December 2, 2011 by wlcart

[bino]

But at lest are we agree its possible to make water flow uphill.

Nope. Still not having it. The uphill part of a syphon is only part of the natural physics equation; won't discharge at the higher locaton. If you said OVER a hill, I could buy into that completely.

For the purpose of this topic, using a syphon to drain a 10 km deep tunnel into the ocean / sea level is a non-starter.

[Heng]

Sweet, a super huge sewer tunnel packed tight with garbage.

If only I were PM (well, apart from making Suharto and Marcos look like amateurs in terms of how much I'd be putting away on the side into my accounts all over the planet).... it'd be as simple as allocating the current street waste clearing teams more shifts in clearing out the waterways all the time, all year round. If we were to get 'crazy' with it... maybe at most create a few hundred more 300 Baht a day wage sewer/klong cleaning crew jobs. Much less than 200 Billion in cash outflow, I promise.

The same way as all beach towns should have permanent crews sweeping the beaches of garbage every single day: super easy to do, and I'd bet we could quantify the returns in local and international travel revenue.

At present they use prisoners to clean out the drains and sewers... gangs of them, thus saving the 300 bahts per day per man , and there sure is plenty of prisoners willing to take this job...

Great. Sorted then. Back to my tea and cakes.

[notime]

I guess it will all be done in millimeters then .

HA HA HA Ha .. might not even be done in millimeters. But 10km sounded impressive, Big Tunnel, Thailand hub of tunnels .. yeah .. very good talk and what a Great Idea! And best of all .. talk is cheap.

[eljeque]

Silly people all of you!

The pipe is going to go so deep that it will go all the way to Dubai so that they can have more water!

And who is going to sell the water to them?... and get a fee for removing the water from Thailand?

You guessed it! Me! :-)

[alexth]

If this is going to go through, which sounds really retarded, btw, I wonder who's gonna be contracted for the job

[Thai at Heart]

The deepest tunnels on earth (in earth?) are located in Tau Tona Mine (Western Deep Shaft 3) at 3.9km deep in West Wits goldfields, near Carletonville, Gauteng, South Africa. Rock face temperatures reach 60C.

Quote" Suchatchavee stated that the proposed tunnel, stretching 100 kilometers with a diameter of 24 meters and a depth of ten kilometers, would be built under the Outer Ring Road in eastern Bangkok from Bang Pa-in District in Ayutthaya to Samut Prakan Province".

"The upper deck would be used as a road under normal conditions while the lower deck would be used as a drainage channel"

It's going to be quite hot down there for the average motorist wouldn't you think?

How does Thailand plan to construct a tunnel 10km under the earths surface? 10 kilometers deep? Is this just more poor reporting or what? Maybe this engineer has a plan to mine blue cheese on the moon?

Anyone want to be in a tunnel constructed in Thailand, 10km underground, in a car with flood water running just below you? I can see a disaster movie par excellence in the making here.

Must be 10 metres, but then most of Bangkok is only a few feet above sea level so without pumps, how the hell is this going to move any water anywhere, if the girth of the tunnel is as big as they claim.

Wouldn't it be better just to build an enormous canal? Of course there is one good thing about building a tunnel, it stops all the local politicians going to buy up the land. lol

[ResX]

under the water level ?

will they get water to flow uphill?

The gradient between intake and discharge that determines how much water can be moved. Buried the tunnel 10km or even 100km down can't change this fact. In reality the longer the tunnel is the higher the pressure loss. Ultimately for the same static gradient less water can be discharged to sea for the given duration.

Or that person wants to build geothermal power plant by mean of heating the water as it travels closer to the earth center? Even if this is true, a 24m diameter tunnel is too big for this purpose.

Another possibility is the tunnel does not mainly function to divert the flood water. It main function is for flood retention rather than diversion. At glance this possibility makes more sense. And we have a test case structure which is called KL SMART tunnel.

Let us verify further. A 100km long & 24m diameter tunnel can keep only 45million cubic meter of flood water. This is extremely small than the required volume of 16 billion cubic meter.....Doesn't seem to add up either.

The simplest explanation so far is that this person has little idea about what he was trying to achieve.

[notmyself]

"and a depth of ten kilometers"

Is that a misprint or is it actually realistic?

I saw that too and it must be a misprint. Imagine the size of the pump required to lift that volume of water up 10km! It would have to be designed first and that in itself would take years to do. Also the car aspect. How long would the slip road have to be to go down 10km and then up at the other end?

[ballpoint]

But at lest are we agree its possible to make water flow uphill.

Nope. Still not having it. The uphill part of a syphon is only part of the natural physics equation; won't discharge at the higher locaton. If you said OVER a hill, I could buy into that completely.

For the purpose of this topic, using a syphon to drain a 10 km deep tunnel into the ocean / sea level is a non-starter.

If the outlet were above the high tide mark, either on the coast or actually out at sea, then as long as the inlet was above that level, water would flow down into the tunnel, to whatever depth they dug it, and collect there. The water level at the bottom of the tunnel would continue to increase, to an equal height along both the downwards (inlet) slope and the upwards (outlet) slope, as more water entered. Once the level in both the inlet and outlet slopes reached the outlet level then water will flow out, and will continue to do so as long as water enters. This is not so much a siphon effect as an artesian, or U-tube one. The limitations are:

Getting the inlet high enough above the outlet so the water can flow out faster than it enters. With the very low ground levels along the Chao Praya basin the inlet would have to be some distance away.

Using the tunnel as a roadway - if the road exit was at a lower elevation than the inlet then water would flow out there too. Unless equipped with closable waterproof barriers.

At the end of the flood you would have a tunnel filled with water, and all sorts of nasties, up to the level of the outlet which would have to be pumped out.

The principle is therefore correct, whether it is feasible or not is another story.