Dual Citizen: What Passport Do I Leave Thailand On?

[HarryHP]

Hi Thaivisa Bloggers,

Can any of you please help me with a visa/passport conundrum I am facing.

I recently acquired two passports(Australian & Thai) and am having trouble working out which passport I should depart Thailand on.

Some background: I am Australian who was born in Thailand 35 years ago to two Australians parents (neither parent is Thai). At the time of my birth I had full Thai and Australian citizenship which I have maintained to date. I left Thailand back to Australia at a young age and although I kept my Thai citizenship (renewed my Thai National I.D Card) I never renewed my original Thai passport. I returned to Thailand 6 months ago and have since got a new Thai passport with the view that I will no longer require a visa to stay here permanently. Over the last 6 months I have entered and departed Thailand on my Australian passport. This will be the first time in 30 years I left as a Thai citizen. However, if I depart Thailand on my new Thai passport my name will be in the system as absconding or overstaying as i officially never departed as an Australian. If I exit on my Australian passport and then enter in on my Thai passport the immigration authorities will ask how I left the country as a Thai citizen. What do i do?

I am also not clear on weather you are 'officially' allowed dual citizenship as a Thai although I know quite a few Thais that hold two passports. What is the official line on this and what passport do I exit Thailand on?

Can anyone tell me how I manage this situation.

Thanks

HHP

[Crossy]

You should leave on the passport you used to enter. Next time use the Thai PP to enter.

There are a couple of dual nationals on the board who will explain how to handle the incoming immigration chap if he becomes a problem.

[NewlyMintedThai]

When I was naturalized they canceled the visa in my "farang" passport and told me to use my new Thai passport only for exiting and entering from thereon.

OP's situation may be different.

[lopburi3]

You must leave on the passport you entered and this should be by air to avoid the exit stamp issue that land borders normally check. On return you present Thai passport for entry and explain you do not have the normal paperwork of exit as you departed on another passport. If they do not understand ask for supervisor. They must let you enter on Thai passport as a Thai but some will not know this or that a Thai can have more than one passport. But in most cases they will have experienced it and there will not be any issue. There is no Thai law preventing dual nationality (but none that really allows it either - much like USA in that regard) and as a Thai they can not refuse you entry.

[NewlyMintedThai]

OP: did they cancel the visa in your Aussie passport, as they did with mine? If so, you need to leave on your Thai passport. Otherwise, lopburi's advice will apply.

[samran]

Harry,

you pose an interesting question and I don't think you've even realised it. For 99% of posters on this board, the question of dual nationality arises because it is in regards to:

1) a child born to one thai and one foreign parent and the child gets both nationalities

2) a Thai spouse taking up the nationality of their foreign spouse

3) a foreigner taking up Thai nationality via naturalisation and keeping their 'old' nationality.

In all cases outlined above, Thailand does not have an issue with having dual nationality.

You are a little bit different.

From what you have written you gained Thai nationality being born in Thailand to two foreign parents. Prior to 1971 more or less anyone born on Thai soil gained Thai citizenship.

Following 1971 you had to have been born to at least one Thai citizen parent, or to foreign parents who had permanent residency allowing the child to gain Thai nationality upon birth in Thailand.

As such given you appear to be born in 1976, 5 years after 1971, according to Thai nationality law, you are a "...a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father or mother..."

This is an important distinction. Most Thai citizens gain Thai nationality by being born to one Thai parent. You gained it by being born to lawfully resident foreign parents (by reading in between the lines of what you wrote).

By my reading of the Thai Nationality Act, this means the little used clause in the Thai nationality act, section 17, may apply to you. This states:

"Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father or mother, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father or mother has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father, mother, or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father, mother, or in a foreign nationality;"

As such, if detected, my semi-educated view is that you may be liable of having your Thai nationality stripped away from you under this clause.

Now, you haven't been detected, probably because the authorities never had any reason to investigate your status, and because you fall into the 0.1% of those dual nationals that this clause applies to so you are a rarity. You holding a Thai passport in and of itself isn't going to raise suspicion (there are many, many people of European descent -farang lets call them - who hold Thai passports these days, so you having one won't raise any suspicions).

Having said that, you probably don't want to be detected.

My advice, leave on your Australian passport and NEVER use it again to enter Thailand, as that would invoke (again, in my semi-educated opinion) cause 17(2) outlined above as Thai authorities would clearly see that you are indeed having an 'active interest' in and 'making use' of the nationality of your parents.

There is another regular contributor on Thai citizenship issues called 'Arkady'. He's taken the time to comb through announcements of granting and revocation of Thai nationality and I believe he has only ever found one instance of someone who's had their nationality stripped under section 17 (from memory, a British guy with a Thai passport who used his Brit passport to enter Thailand).

So it is rare, but not unheard of.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Usually I am the one on these threads telling people that they have nothing to worry about, given in most all cases, holding dual nationality is not a problem (I have Thai/Aust passports and my daughters have Thai/Aust/NZ passports)

[mijan24]

Harry,

you pose an interesting question and I don't think you've even realised it. For 99% of posters on this board, the question of dual nationality arises because it is in regards to:

1) a child born to one thai and one foreign parent and the child gets both nationalities

2) a Thai spouse taking up the nationality of their foreign spouse

3) a foreigner taking up Thai nationality via naturalisation and keeping their 'old' nationality.

In all cases outlined above, Thailand does not have an issue with having dual nationality.

You are a little bit different.

From what you have written you gained Thai nationality being born in Thailand to two foreign parents. Prior to 1971 more or less anyone born on Thai soil gained Thai citizenship.

Following 1971 you had to have been born to at least one Thai citizen parent, or to foreign parents who had permanent residency allowing the child to gain Thai nationality upon birth in Thailand.

As such given you appear to be born in 1976, 5 years after 1971, according to Thai nationality law, you are a "...a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father or mother..."

This is an important distinction. Most Thai citizens gain Thai nationality by being born to one Thai parent. You gained it by being born to lawfully resident foreign parents (by reading in between the lines of what you wrote).

By my reading of the Thai Nationality Act, this means the little used clause in the Thai nationality act, section 17, may apply to you. This states:

"Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father or mother, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father or mother has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father, mother, or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father, mother, or in a foreign nationality;"

As such, if detected, my semi-educated view is that you may be liable of having your Thai nationality stripped away from you under this clause.

Now, you haven't been detected, probably because the authorities never had any reason to investigate your status, and because you fall into the 0.1% of those dual nationals that this clause applies to so you are a rarity. You holding a Thai passport in and of itself isn't going to raise suspicion (there are many, many people of European descent -farang lets call them - who hold Thai passports these days, so you having one won't raise any suspicions).

Having said that, you probably don't want to be detected.

My advice, leave on your Australian passport and NEVER use it again to enter Thailand, as that would invoke (again, in my semi-educated opinion) cause 17(2) outlined above as Thai authorities would clearly see that you are indeed having an 'active interest' in and 'making use' of the nationality of your parents.

There is another regular contributor on Thai citizenship issues called 'Arkady'. He's taken the time to comb through announcements of granting and revocation of Thai nationality and I believe he has only ever found one instance of someone who's had their nationality stripped under section 17 (from memory, a British guy with a Thai passport who used his Brit passport to enter Thailand).

So it is rare, but not unheard of.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Usually I am the one on these threads telling people that they have nothing to worry about, given in most all cases, holding dual nationality is not a problem (I have Thai/Aust passports and my daughters have Thai/Aust/NZ passports)

Samran my post is of no use to the OP except to say That your post has been enlightening and proves one is never too old to learn thankyou. :jap:

[chris5346]

can't he just show both passport when leaving ? he could fill out an extra departure card for his thai passport ?

i'd recommend trying to get an exit stamp on your thai passport so when you come back to thailand in the future it wont raise any alarms,

also you want to make sure you autralian one isn't classed as on overstay .

sorry i don't really have any gaurantee i was just reading out of interest because my daughter dual citizenship.

good luck,

chris

[NewlyMintedThai]

My advice would be to go to immigration, explain that you are a new Thai citizen, and get them to cancel the entry stamp or visa in your old passport. Use the Thai passport for exit and whenever coming or going again in the future.

That is exactly what I did.

[NewlyMintedThai]

...and I think it makes sense in view of the fact that you are prohibited from making use of your original nationality in Thailand now that your Thai nationality has been affirmed.

[Maestro]

OP: did they cancel the visa in your Aussie passport, as they did with mine? If so, you need to leave on your Thai passport. Otherwise, lopburi's advice will apply.

The O's situation is entirely different from yours and therefore they cannot "cancel" his "visa" in his Australian passport.

My advice would be to go to immigration, explain that you are a new Thai citizen, and get them to cancel the entry stamp or visa in your old passport. Use the Thai passport for exit and whenever coming or going again in the future.

That is exactly what I did.

That's what you did, but it does not apply to the OP. Immigration won't put a departure stamp in both his passports.

[Maestro]

...and I think it makes sense in view of the fact that you are prohibited from making use of your original nationality in Thailand now that your Thai nationality has been affirmed.

It makes sense that the OP is allowed to make use of only one nationality at a time in Thailand. He already had Australian and Thai nationality when he was in Australia, he chose to enter Thailand as an Australian, he is now in Thailand as an Australian, and he will have to leave as an Australian.

You, on the other hand, had only your foreign nationality when you entered Thailand, you acquired Thai nationality (were naturalized as a Thai) while you were in Thailand, and this is the reason why Immigration annulled (cancellled), the permission to stay, not your visa, in your foreign passport.

[NewlyMintedThai]

OP: did they cancel the visa in your Aussie passport, as they did with mine? If so, you need to leave on your Thai passport. Otherwise, lopburi's advice will apply.

The O's situation is entirely different from yours and therefore they cannot "cancel" his "visa" in his Australian passport.

My advice would be to go to immigration, explain that you are a new Thai citizen, and get them to cancel the entry stamp or visa in your old passport. Use the Thai passport for exit and whenever coming or going again in the future.

That is exactly what I did.

That's what you did, but it does not apply to the OP. Immigration won't put a departure stamp in both his passports.

I wasn't suggesting they would put a departure stamp in both passports.

Simply what they do is make an annotation in the database that the person who came in on an Australian passport has been issued a Thai passport and will use that on departure. It just means that the Australian passport will not be considered on overstay when it is never stamped out.

This is done at Charngwattana, by the way-- not at the airport or land border.

[Maestro]

They definitely don't do this for a person who entered as a dual foreign/Thai national on a foreign passport. Absolutely not an option for the OP.

[HarryHP]

Harry,

you pose an interesting question and I don't think you've even realised it. For 99% of posters on this board, the question of dual nationality arises because it is in regards to:

1) a child born to one thai and one foreign parent and the child gets both nationalities

2) a Thai spouse taking up the nationality of their foreign spouse

3) a foreigner taking up Thai nationality via naturalisation and keeping their 'old' nationality.

In all cases outlined above, Thailand does not have an issue with having dual nationality.

You are a little bit different.

From what you have written you gained Thai nationality being born in Thailand to two foreign parents. Prior to 1971 more or less anyone born on Thai soil gained Thai citizenship.

Following 1971 you had to have been born to at least one Thai citizen parent, or to foreign parents who had permanent residency allowing the child to gain Thai nationality upon birth in Thailand.

As such given you appear to be born in 1976, 5 years after 1971, according to Thai nationality law, you are a "...a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father or mother..."

This is an important distinction. Most Thai citizens gain Thai nationality by being born to one Thai parent. You gained it by being born to lawfully resident foreign parents (by reading in between the lines of what you wrote).

By my reading of the Thai Nationality Act, this means the little used clause in the Thai nationality act, section 17, may apply to you. This states:

"Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father or mother, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father or mother has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father, mother, or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father, mother, or in a foreign nationality;"

As such, if detected, my semi-educated view is that you may be liable of having your Thai nationality stripped away from you under this clause.

Now, you haven't been detected, probably because the authorities never had any reason to investigate your status, and because you fall into the 0.1% of those dual nationals that this clause applies to so you are a rarity. You holding a Thai passport in and of itself isn't going to raise suspicion (there are many, many people of European descent -farang lets call them - who hold Thai passports these days, so you having one won't raise any suspicions).

Having said that, you probably don't want to be detected.

My advice, leave on your Australian passport and NEVER use it again to enter Thailand, as that would invoke (again, in my semi-educated opinion) cause 17(2) outlined above as Thai authorities would clearly see that you are indeed having an 'active interest' in and 'making use' of the nationality of your parents.

There is another regular contributor on Thai citizenship issues called 'Arkady'. He's taken the time to comb through announcements of granting and revocation of Thai nationality and I believe he has only ever found one instance of someone who's had their nationality stripped under section 17 (from memory, a British guy with a Thai passport who used his Brit passport to enter Thailand).

So it is rare, but not unheard of.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Usually I am the one on these threads telling people that they have nothing to worry about, given in most all cases, holding dual nationality is not a problem (I have Thai/Aust passports and my daughters have Thai/Aust/NZ passports)

Samran,

Thanks for rersponding. I was actually born in 1973 and was definitely a full Thai citizen. I actually held my Thai citizenship before my Australian citizenship. The law you refer to about being born in Thailand but to foreign or alien parents I believe changed around 1975/76. My brother who was born in Thailand 1972 is also a full Thai citizen with Thai ID Card and Thai Passport. Does this change anything do you think?

HHP

[Maestro]

What you wrote confirms what Samran assumed (I assumed the same when I read your first post). Nothing changes to what Samran said, ie to minimise the risk of loosing your Thai citizenship you should quitetly leave Thailand on your Australian passport, without bothering any Thai immigration office, showing only your Australian passport on departure, and after that always enter and leave Thailand on your Thai passport, ie never again use your Australian nationality in Thailand.

[samran]

Samran,

Thanks for rersponding. I was actually born in 1973 and was definitely a full Thai citizen. I actually held my Thai citizenship before my Australian citizenship. The law you refer to about being born in Thailand but to foreign or alien parents I believe changed around 1975/76. My brother who was born in Thailand 1972 is also a full Thai citizen with Thai ID Card and Thai Passport. Does this change anything do you think?

HHP

From what I know there weren't any changes to nationality law in 75/76.

The first version of the act was in 1965. The Act was then amended twice in 1992, and most recently in 2008.

Revolutionary decree 337 which was passed in 1972 also took away Thai citizenship to those born of certain categories of foreign parents - though I think this was predominantly aimed at children of Vietnamese refugees. The most recent change, in 2008,attempts to rectify the 1972 change.

Nevertheless, the exact wording of section 17 of the 2008 still states

“Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father or mother, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1) He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father or mother has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more

than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2) There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father, mother, or of a foreign nationality, or that he has an

active interest in the nationality of his father, mother, or in a foreign nationality;

(3) He commits any act prejudicial to the security or conflicting with the interests of the State, or amounting to an insult to the nation;

(4) He commits any act contrary to public order or good morals.

The Minister in the event of (1) or (2), and the Court in the event of (3) or (4) and upon request of the public prosecutor, shall order the revocation of Thai nationality.”

So even though you are a 'full Thai citizen' and always have been, you are for some reason still held to a higher standard to other dual nationals.

Unfair? Certainly. I can't explain why this clause exists, especially when the Thai supreme court has struck out similar discriminatory rules in other places for dual nationals (eg. requiring MP's born to foreign parents to have higher levels of educational qualifications).

But it is there, and it appears so long as you were born to two foreign parents in Thailand (none of which also had Thai nationality) and became a Thai citizen upon your birth in Thailand, then this clause applies to you.

So....advice is still the same. Depart quietly on the Australian passport, return on the Thai passport and be done with it.

[Arkady]

Interesting points raised here. Harry, your parents must have both been permanent residents when you were born in 1976 to entitle you to be Thai. This is not surprising since getting PR was fairly easy in those days for all except Chinese who were the only nationality that came up against the quota of 100 per nationality per annum which was indeed intended to severely restrict Chinese immigration. The current system of work permits was only introduced via the 1978 Working of Aliens Act and before that expats came in on a three month business visas and then applied for PR, if they wanted to stay medium or long term. The extension of 90 day non-imm B visas to 12 months only came in in the 80s in response to the increasing numbers of expats. Harry's route to Thai citizenship is still available today but sadly the easy route to PR is closed.

Regarding the passport issue, everything has already been laid out quite lucidly by Samran, Maestro and Newly Minted Thai. As Samran says, there were no amendments to the Nationality Act in between the Revolutionary Decree of December 1971 that retroactively stripped Thai citizenship from those born in Thailand to foreign parents without PR and the two nationality acts of 1992 that for the first time automatically gave citizenship to those born to Thai mothers anywhere in the world. Section 17 of the Act remains in force and, again as pointed out by Samran, there is a record in the Royal Gazette of a British man whose Thai citizenship was revoked in 2004 for maintaining an active interest in the nationality of his father. Unusually the Royal Gazette announcement even cited the evidence used in this case which was the fact that he had entered Thailand on a British passport.

Overwhelmingly the vast majority of revocation of Thai nationality announcements in the Royal Gazette involve people who had obtained their nationality by virtue of being born in Thailand to foreign parents, largely Chinese, which seems to be regarded by Interior Ministry officials in their infinite wisdom as the most tenuous of all claims to Thai nationality. I have not been able to find any records of revocations of any other category of citizen, except for women who adopted the nationality of their Thai husbands. This clearly took some doing as they are only liable to revocation on grounds of moral turpitude, being a threat to national security or lying in their application.

I think you are going to have to leave Thailand on your Australian passport and then re-enter on your clean Thai passport, as already suggested by others. From other threads, it seems that when dual nationals who have entered Thailand on a foreign passport apply for a Thai passport in Thailand, the Foreign Ministry notes details of the foreign passport and flags this in the database, so it will come up if you try to leave Thailand on the Thai passport. I think it is worth following up Newly Minted Thai's suggestion of trying to find out if you can get Immigration to cancel the visa in your Australian passport. However, I don't hold out great hopes for this. Thus I would suggest you get some one to contact Immigration on your behalf on strict instructions not to reveal your identity or nationality. On returning to Thailand on your clean Thai passport you should enter at Suvarnabhumi where you have the greatest chance of finding an Immigration supervisor who actually knows the law. I would come armed armed with a Thai version of the 2007 Constitution which states in Article 43:

"No person of Thai nationality shall be deported or prohibited from entering the Kingdom."

It might also be necessary to cite from Article 30.

"Unjust discrimination against a person on the grounds of difference in origin, race, sex, age, physical or health condition, personal status, economic or social standing, religious belief or education or Constitutional political views shall not be permitted."

Don't try to cite the Nationality Act because Section 17 is problematic and your Thai passport establishes beyond doubt that you are a Thai citizen under the Nationality Act.

One final piece of advice is, assuming you look 100% farang, tell Immigration a white lie that your father was a naturalized Thai when you were born in Thailand which will make them think they can't do anything to you, as you are Thai by descent. If you are caught out you can always say you confused PR with nationality. If you look Asian or half Asian, let them think your mother is Thai. Half Thais with Thai mothers account for probably the majority of cases like yours at Suvarnabhumi and most of the rest are Thai women living abroad who have obtained the nationality of a foreign husband. The Nationality Act doesn't give Immigration any leeway to take action against the former group and not much against the latter. So they have to satisfy themselves with giving them a hard time, relying on the fact that most of them don't know the law so they can have fun putting the shits up them. Often they are successful in persuading these poor unfortunates to enter Thailand on their foreign passports in blatant violation of their constitutional rights.

Before too long Immigration at Suvarnabhumi will be gladly stamping the clean Thai passport of a Thai citizen with multiple nationalities flying in from Dubai!

[Arkady]

As it is relates to my post above I have attached a translation of the 2007 Constitution.

Good luck Harry. I think you should have no problem apart from maybe 15 mins of hassle getting an Immigration supervisor to let you in. Let us know how you get on.

Thai Constitution 2007 - Isaan Lawyers EN.pdf

[Maestro]

And here's a link to the Constitution in Thai if you want to make reading easier for the immigration officer:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=134637