Thailand Will Only Reunite If The Reds Are Disbanded, Abhisit Says

[moe666]

My girlfriend works for a family who are red shirts, the only tv station on is the red shirt station and they all support Big T. I asked her why? She says when Big T in office times where great lots of business, lots of tourist. Iasked her donot they realize when he came into office times where good world wide 40baht to the dollar, 70baht to the lb.People from america,great britian,and europe where travelling and spending money and it had nothing to do with Thaksin other than for him right time right place. She says yes I know but boss doesn't understand and think Thaksin was behind it.

This is no poor family they have money from a very good business similar to Amway but an asian concept.

[Babcock]

My girlfriend works for a family who are red shirts, the only tv station on is the red shirt station and they all support Big T. I asked her why? She says when Big T in office times where great lots of business, lots of tourist. Iasked her donot they realize when he came into office times where good world wide 40baht to the dollar, 70baht to the lb.People from america,great britian,and europe where travelling and spending money and it had nothing to do with Thaksin other than for him right time right place. She says yes I know but boss doesn't understand and think Thaksin was behind it.

This is no poor family they have money from a very good business similar to Amway but an asian concept.

What's the redshirt TV station?

What's it's name? Perhaps I can get mine to stop watching channel 5 soaps!

[moe666]

The Reds are our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ....

The only reason we didn't have a repeat of the previous election when the Yellows created mayhem until they had the government of their choice against the popular vote is because this time they knew they will have the Reds in front of them.

Disband the Yellows and the Reds will disappear because they will have no reason to exist.

So patently uninformed on the subject it boggles the mind.

The Reds have their foot hold, and Thaksin or no Thaksin, yellows or no yellows, more likely with no Thaksin, they will push for their 'workers paradise' in any and all ways. He has reopened Pandora's box that was closed in the 70's, and we will all pay the price for his choice of temporary bedfellows.

The Yellows were protesting to get rid of Thaksin's corruption.

The ' making mayhem ' was caused by repeated violent attacks against them,

that radicalized their actions in self-defense. Culminating with the Oct 7th

shooting fish in a barrel incident, which with the night grenade attacks on their camp at Gov, House, lead to their taking the airport.

Lacking the extreme violence and deaths 'brought to them' by their opponents, it was obvious at the time that they would not have bothered with the airport but would have just continued their loud barking protest at G.H.

They since gone off the rails philosophically all on their own.

Ah, but the Reds, they have a core ideological group, based on neo-Maoist

action theory, and they have been handed a organizational umbrella to use.

Something denied them for 40 years.

They are not going to fade away as being nothing more than 'a counter to the yellows'. They have much longer term aims,emanating from the leadership that made a devils deal with Thaksins thugs and ass-kissers.

So if the Reds are "our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ...." who the hell will protect the great majority of the populace from The reds????

Where do you get these weird ideas about communism from?

Everyone in Thailand knows that communism doesn't work. Hell, the thai communist party objected to being told what to do by the Cambodian communists who quarrelled with the vietnamese communists.

In the end the thai communists imploded.

No what you and others are really afraid of, even if you don't know it yet, is socialism, the word banned from thai politics.

What the PAD did is well documented. They use a swastika as an emblem for their political party. That kinda tells you where they're coming from.

They've lost most of their support. The trade unions have left them once their membership discovered that their membership would be denied a vote should the Pad ever come to power.

The protests were initially about corruption but only Thaksin's corruption and to date we have 2 phoney convictions for him.

No prosecution over all the drug deaths. I wonder why? Why couldn't Abhisit take him down over this horrendous episode?

You can't answer that can you?

Do you realize a war took place in Thailand between the communist and those loyal to the government and the monarchy. A friends father fought in this mess, he killed people he knew from the village they lived in because they where communist. This man spent many months in the forest fighting the communist, they didn't just implode. My friends father recieve a private auidence with the king for his service and sacrifice to the country.

[hanuman1]

A deeper understanding will reveal that they may temporarily have the same attitude, but what lies on their decks and inside their hulls is quite different.

Not may have the same attitude, they do have the same attitude, and as for temporarily, how can you call something temporary when that has been their position since they came into existence.

Maybe the problem here is just semantics.

Nope. The problem here is your desperation and your wishful thinking that has you describing something not as it as but as you think / hope it might be at some future time.

I offered the semantics thing as a graceful way out of the corner you have very firmly positioned yourself in with this narrow-minded, and therefore easy-to-adopt position.

You think the Unholy Trinity are one and the same. A true believer. People on the ground know different.

[gregb]

What the PAD did is well documented. They use a swastika as an emblem for their political party. That kinda tells you where they're coming from.

They've lost most of their support. The trade unions have left them once their membership discovered that their membership would be denied a vote should the Pad ever come to power.

Actually, no it doesn't, and they haven't lost most of their support. The NPP, which is different from the PAD, never had much support to begin with. The swastika is an ancient symbol, and even school girls in Chiang Mai aren't sensitive to the Western symbolism. You are applying your own cultural biases to a people you clearly do not understand.

What the PAD stood for was a front against tyranny by Thaksin. That support is still alive and very strong. Most won't go for the rest of their political platform laid down by the NPP, but they will rally to prohibit any attempt by the square faced fugitive demagogue in exile from returning to destroy the country. It is a mistake to think that just because the membership of the original PAD was diverse that they will simply lie down and allow the tyrant to resume his pillaging of the country.

And I reiterate, the reds are Thaksin, and Thaksin is the reds. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive. If Thaksin denounces the reds and says he no longer supports them, the numbers of the remaining reds will be substantially less than the NPP. Just like the numbers of the NPP were substantially less than the complete PAD whose only goal was to fight for justice against the crimes by Thaksin.

The key to everything is Thaksin. He is the source of the division. Since he is incapable of making the kind of concessions necessary for a peaceful return, there will be civil war if he comes back. Anyone who eagerly awaits his return should keep that in mind. His return means bullets will be flying, and someone you do care about might be a victim of that tragedy.

[Orac]

The Reds are our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ....

The only reason we didn't have a repeat of the previous election when the Yellows created mayhem until they had the government of their choice against the popular vote is because this time they knew they will have the Reds in front of them.

Disband the Yellows and the Reds will disappear because they will have no reason to exist.

So patently uninformed on the subject it boggles the mind.

The Reds have their foot hold, and Thaksin or no Thaksin, yellows or no yellows, more likely with no Thaksin, they will push for their 'workers paradise' in any and all ways. He has reopened Pandora's box that was closed in the 70's, and we will all pay the price for his choice of temporary bedfellows.

The Yellows were protesting to get rid of Thaksin's corruption.

The ' making mayhem ' was caused by repeated violent attacks against them,

that radicalized their actions in self-defense. Culminating with the Oct 7th

shooting fish in a barrel incident, which with the night grenade attacks on their camp at Gov, House, lead to their taking the airport.

Lacking the extreme violence and deaths 'brought to them' by their opponents, it was obvious at the time that they would not have bothered with the airport but would have just continued their loud barking protest at G.H.

They since gone off the rails philosophically all on their own.

Ah, but the Reds, they have a core ideological group, based on neo-Maoist

action theory, and they have been handed a organizational umbrella to use.

Something denied them for 40 years.

They are not going to fade away as being nothing more than 'a counter to the yellows'. They have much longer term aims,emanating from the leadership that made a devils deal with Thaksins thugs and ass-kissers.

So if the Reds are "our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ...." who the hell will protect the great majority of the populace from The reds????

Where do you get these weird ideas about communism from?

Everyone in Thailand knows that communism doesn't work. Hell, the thai communist party objected to being told what to do by the Cambodian communists who quarrelled with the vietnamese communists.

In the end the thai communists imploded.

No what you and others are really afraid of, even if you don't know it yet, is socialism, the word banned from thai politics.

What the PAD did is well documented. They use a swastika as an emblem for their political party. That kinda tells you where they're coming from.

They've lost most of their support. The trade unions have left them once their membership discovered that their membership would be denied a vote should the Pad ever come to power.

The protests were initially about corruption but only Thaksin's corruption and to date we have 2 phoney convictions for him.

No prosecution over all the drug deaths. I wonder why? Why couldn't Abhisit take him down over this horrendous episode?

You can't answer that can you?

I would have to agree with both of you on this in that the political threat from the red shirts is far greater than a lot of people seem to realise, whether it be communism or socialism, and the allegations that they are just puppets for Thaksin is a very naive point of view. The likes of Thida Thawornseth, an 'ex' communist is certainly a strange partner for the ultimate corrupt capitalist Thaksin.

The current arrangements between them seem to be more a temporary convenience than anything - Thaksin obviously needs their support for the votes they can provide which give him the legitimacy to take over control of the democratic institutions. Some of the red shirt leaders are no doubt comfortable sitting back and letting Thaksin take on the 'establishment' and weaken the 'hidden' powers that be that have previously held sway in Thailand.

At some point I can see the two parties moving apart but I cannot see Thaksin retaining power without the support of the red shirts however the reds, though a fairly fragmented group now with various different agendas, maybe have enough political momentum to go it alone, obviously the more the 'establishment' is destabalised the better for them and inevitable events in Thailands future which cannot be discussed here will help them on their way.

[Oberkommando]

My girlfriend works for a family who are red shirts, the only tv station on is the red shirt station and they all support Big T. I asked her why? She says when Big T in office times where great lots of business, lots of tourist. Iasked her donot they realize when he came into office times where good world wide 40baht to the dollar, 70baht to the lb.People from america,great britian,and europe where travelling and spending money and it had nothing to do with Thaksin other than for him right time right place. She says yes I know but boss doesn't understand and think Thaksin was behind it.

This is no poor family they have money from a very good business similar to Amway but an asian concept.

It has a lot to do with Thaksin's populist politics actually, previous governments gave short shrift to the poor electorate. Thaksin has capitalised on this exponentially, even to the extent that the Dems under Abhisit had no choice but to copy and implement similar policies.

Too little too late, as the failure of the previous Democrat governments in particular the previous one under Chuan Leepai in the late 90's that implemented the 'Bitter Medicine' policies hit the poorest people hard, hence why we see such a definitive geographical split in voting countrywide. The great irony of course was that Chuan's government fell due to corruption scandals.

[gregb]

A deeper understanding will reveal that they may temporarily have the same attitude, but what lies on their decks and inside their hulls is quite different.

Not may have the same attitude, they do have the same attitude, and as for temporarily, how can you call something temporary when that has been their position since they came into existence.

Maybe the problem here is just semantics.

Nope. The problem here is your desperation and your wishful thinking that has you describing something not as it as but as you think / hope it might be at some future time.

I offered the semantics thing as a graceful way out of the corner you have very firmly positioned yourself in with this narrow-minded, and therefore easy-to-adopt position.

You think the Unholy Trinity are one and the same. A true believer. People on the ground know different.

People on the ground who know believe differently are hopelessly naive.

Without Thaksin, the reds have less support than the NPP.

[rixalex]

I offered the semantics thing as a graceful way out of the corner you have very firmly positioned yourself in with this narrow-minded, and therefore easy-to-adopt position.

You think the Unholy Trinity are one and the same. A true believer. People on the ground know different.

Don't concern yourself with trying to find graceful ways out for others, when you yourself have been relentless beating this same drum, month after month, year after year, of "you'll see, just you wait, any minute now the red shirt movement is going to morph into something more than just Thaksin, something that will help the people it falsely claims to give a shit about"... because month after month, year after year, all it ever does is prove you totally wrong.

[Babcock]

What the PAD did is well documented. They use a swastika as an emblem for their political party. That kinda tells you where they're coming from.

They've lost most of their support. The trade unions have left them once their membership discovered that their membership would be denied a vote should the Pad ever come to power.

Actually, no it doesn't, and they haven't lost most of their support. The NPP, which is different from the PAD, never had much support to begin with. The swastika is an ancient symbol, and even school girls in Chiang Mai aren't sensitive to the Western symbolism. You are applying your own cultural biases to a people you clearly do not understand.

What the PAD stood for was a front against tyranny by Thaksin. That support is still alive and very strong. Most won't go for the rest of their political platform laid down by the NPP, but they will rally to prohibit any attempt by the square faced fugitive demagogue in exile from returning to destroy the country. It is a mistake to think that just because the membership of the original PAD was diverse that they will simply lie down and allow the tyrant to resume his pillaging of the country.

And I reiterate, the reds are Thaksin, and Thaksin is the reds. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive. If Thaksin denounces the reds and says he no longer supports them, the numbers of the remaining reds will be substantially less than the NPP. Just like the numbers of the NPP were substantially less than the complete PAD whose only goal was to fight for justice against the crimes by Thaksin.

The key to everything is Thaksin. He is the source of the division. Since he is incapable of making the kind of concessions necessary for a peaceful return, there will be civil war if he comes back. Anyone who eagerly awaits his return should keep that in mind. His return means bullets will be flying, and someone you do care about might be a victim of that tragedy.

Well if you look at your history book you will see that hours after Pearl Harbour the thais surrendered to the japanese and promptly declared war on Britain and the USA. They joined the axis and the swastika,as you say an ancient symbol of good luck etc, was used by the nazis reversed from its normal representation. My point is japanese imperialism was greatly admired then by the Thai elite. Not all as Pridi Banomyong mobilised some 50000 thais against the japanese.

So it is today with Thailand polarised. Intellectual curiosity is discouraged. Were there to be another coup I don't think it would be accepted so easily. That's why we have the redshirts that Abhisit fears.

Hey it took most of europe over a hundred years to establish democracy. It's going to take a long time here to persuade people of the benefits which do include proper accountability and due process.

[h90]

I guess that would also have to include the Yellows, the multi colours, perhaps even a few political parties etc?

Well the reds are the property of Thaksin, so he can just disband them.

The Yellows, Multi Colours are just groups of people who want to get rid of Thaksin, so once Thaksin gives up and disband the reds, automatically the others will disappear.

[h90]

You see there are many redshirts who do not support thaksin.

If a red shirt truly didn't support Thaksin, they would have to withdraw their support for that movement, as that movement, shows time and time again, that its main drive and focus is simply to aid that man. All the other claimed drives are wallpaper.

But anyway, i have met many red shirts in my time, but not one, hasn't in some form or other, in one degree or other, supported Thaksin. I will believe that a non-Thaksin supporting red shirt exists when you show me one.

There are meetings which everyone wear a Thaksin TShirt.

[h90]

The Reds are our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ....

The only reason we didn't have a repeat of the previous election when the Yellows created mayhem until they had the government of their choice against the popular vote is because this time they knew they will have the Reds in front of them.

Disband the Yellows and the Reds will disappear because they will have no reason to exist.

So patently uninformed on the subject it boggles the mind.

The Reds have their foot hold, and Thaksin or no Thaksin, yellows or no yellows, more likely with no Thaksin, they will push for their 'workers paradise' in any and all ways. He has reopened Pandora's box that was closed in the 70's, and we will all pay the price for his choice of temporary bedfellows.

The Yellows were protesting to get rid of Thaksin's corruption.

The ' making mayhem ' was caused by repeated violent attacks against them,

that radicalized their actions in self-defense. Culminating with the Oct 7th

shooting fish in a barrel incident, which with the night grenade attacks on their camp at Gov, House, lead to their taking the airport.

Lacking the extreme violence and deaths 'brought to them' by their opponents, it was obvious at the time that they would not have bothered with the airport but would have just continued their loud barking protest at G.H.

They since gone off the rails philosophically all on their own.

Ah, but the Reds, they have a core ideological group, based on neo-Maoist

action theory, and they have been handed a organizational umbrella to use.

Something denied them for 40 years.

They are not going to fade away as being nothing more than 'a counter to the yellows'. They have much longer term aims,emanating from the leadership that made a devils deal with Thaksins thugs and ass-kissers.

So if the Reds are "our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ...." who the hell will protect the great majority of the populace from The reds????

Where do you get these weird ideas about communism from?

Everyone in Thailand knows that communism doesn't work. Hell, the thai communist party objected to being told what to do by the Cambodian communists who quarrelled with the vietnamese communists.

In the end the thai communists imploded.

No what you and others are really afraid of, even if you don't know it yet, is socialism, the word banned from thai politics.

What the PAD did is well documented. They use a swastika as an emblem for their political party. That kinda tells you where they're coming from.

They've lost most of their support. The trade unions have left them once their membership discovered that their membership would be denied a vote should the Pad ever come to power.

The protests were initially about corruption but only Thaksin's corruption and to date we have 2 phoney convictions for him.

No prosecution over all the drug deaths. I wonder why? Why couldn't Abhisit take him down over this horrendous episode?

You can't answer that can you?

The PAD has no political party and at the last election the PAD promoted: Vote NO.

And to educate you a little bit: The Swastika they use is a Hindu Sun symbol, used approx. 3000 years before Hitler was born. You find it on most Hindu Temple which does not mean that the Hindu priests are all hidden German Nazis.

Beside that the artwork of the NPP has no similarities with the Nazi Germans.

[spidermike007]

I don't think the Redshirts would comply with a PTP or Thaksin request to disband. The Redshirts are using Thaksin, just as he has used them. As soon as they are of no use to each other, they will turn on each other.

Quite a bit of truth in that i'd say.

I would say what Abhisit was really getting at is that the reds as a political tool for Thaksin must go away. The reds without Thaksin are hardly a problem. Their complaints can be addressed through normal procedures, and an organization, even one as militant as the reds, can be negotiated with. They aren't all sociopaths.

It is the way Thaksin has corrupted them for his own purposes that is the real problem. And yes, I'm sure there are naive leaders within the red shirt who believe they can use Thaksin and then discard him when they are done. Should Thaksin ever succeed in his goal to reconquer the country, they will find out how truly wrong they are.

All that has to happen is that Thaksin denounces the reds, and they are effectively done as any kind of meaningful force in the country.

There are a HUNDRED ways the Thai government could have made Thaksin "go away". The fact that they did little, or nothing is the reason Thaksin haunts them to this day. Now Abhisit says the only way to have harmony is to eliminate the Red party. That is a bit like what George Bush was famously quoted as saying, to the effect that it is much harder to govern when you are not a dictator. Oh, democracy makes it so hard to keep the country together. Abhisit has shown that he is nothing more than a second rate politician. We all thought he was brilliant, and the solution to Thailands problems. After simply following the dictates of the military for 4 years, without putting up the slightest bit of a fight, we now realize he is bought and paid for too. So, for him to make a statement like this is disingenuous at best. I am no fan of the red shirts. "Yingbat" has shown herself to be beyond inept. But Abhisit has turned into a tiny crybaby. He is a shell of a man.

[Babcock]

The Reds are our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ....

The only reason we didn't have a repeat of the previous election when the Yellows created mayhem until they had the government of their choice against the popular vote is because this time they knew they will have the Reds in front of them.

Disband the Yellows and the Reds will disappear because they will have no reason to exist.

So patently uninformed on the subject it boggles the mind.

The Reds have their foot hold, and Thaksin or no Thaksin, yellows or no yellows, more likely with no Thaksin, they will push for their 'workers paradise' in any and all ways. He has reopened Pandora's box that was closed in the 70's, and we will all pay the price for his choice of temporary bedfellows.

The Yellows were protesting to get rid of Thaksin's corruption.

The ' making mayhem ' was caused by repeated violent attacks against them,

that radicalized their actions in self-defense. Culminating with the Oct 7th

shooting fish in a barrel incident, which with the night grenade attacks on their camp at Gov, House, lead to their taking the airport.

Lacking the extreme violence and deaths 'brought to them' by their opponents, it was obvious at the time that they would not have bothered with the airport but would have just continued their loud barking protest at G.H.

They since gone off the rails philosophically all on their own.

Ah, but the Reds, they have a core ideological group, based on neo-Maoist

action theory, and they have been handed a organizational umbrella to use.

Something denied them for 40 years.

They are not going to fade away as being nothing more than 'a counter to the yellows'. They have much longer term aims,emanating from the leadership that made a devils deal with Thaksins thugs and ass-kissers.

So if the Reds are "our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ...." who the hell will protect the great majority of the populace from The reds????

Where do you get these weird ideas about communism from?

Everyone in Thailand knows that communism doesn't work. Hell, the thai communist party objected to being told what to do by the Cambodian communists who quarrelled with the vietnamese communists.

In the end the thai communists imploded.

No what you and others are really afraid of, even if you don't know it yet, is socialism, the word banned from thai politics.

What the PAD did is well documented. They use a swastika as an emblem for their political party. That kinda tells you where they're coming from.

They've lost most of their support. The trade unions have left them once their membership discovered that their membership would be denied a vote should the Pad ever come to power.

The protests were initially about corruption but only Thaksin's corruption and to date we have 2 phoney convictions for him.

No prosecution over all the drug deaths. I wonder why? Why couldn't Abhisit take him down over this horrendous episode?

You can't answer that can you?

The PAD has no political party and at the last election the PAD promoted: Vote NO.

And to educate you a little bit: The Swastika they use is a Hindu Sun symbol, used approx. 3000 years before Hitler was born. You find it on most Hindu Temple which does not mean that the Hindu priests are all hidden German Nazis.

Beside that the artwork of the NPP has no similarities with the Nazi Germans.

Well we know what the intent is even if it's only partial.

Yes their party stood aside at the elections and we had all those posters of animals.

"Don't vote they're all the same."

That appears to be more or less what's happening in the US.

In America you have 2 brands of the same thing. The democrats and the republicans both owned by Wall street. Afterall the Federal Reserve is a private cartel.

[Roadman]

The problem is not the Red shirts. The problem is the hind tit of the convicted criminal that they have hooked onto and some of their scum bag leadership, who are basically the con's henchmen.

There was a really good article on here a few months back just after these Pheu Thai thugs and thievies came to power on a strong Reds supporter from Udon Thani (not the scum who were burning down City hall and the likes) who basically laid out his grievances and atoned that it did not matter if Pheu Thai were in power, because if they did not meet the needs of the Isaan underclass then he would be leading the struggle also against Pheu Thai and the criminal "lower than a snakes belly" Thaksin. (Note the "lower than a snakes belly" is mine but the con is absolute scum. He fits the criteria of scum that I explain to my daughter - if it was a dog you would take it out back and shoot it). I diverse.

The solution is simple. Isolate and deal to Thaksin once and for and half the problem will be corrected. What makes the solution difficult is Thaksin has the money to block vote buy the Isaan Khwai and the control through his stoogies (sister and pathetic excuse for a deputy PM) to play out his hand.

If somehow the Red shirt support base could be turned away from Thaksin to a Democrat/Red Shirt coalition I think the chance of progress within Thailand would be truly favourable. One wishes that the Shinwatra's would all just be vanquished from Thailand for good. Puff thats fairy dust. Where an environment wallows in corruption then it is ripe for scum like the Shinwatra's to fleece it.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Roadman

[Crushdepth]

I don't think the Redshirts would comply with a PTP or Thaksin request to disband. The Redshirts are using Thaksin, just as he has used them. As soon as they are of no use to each other, they will turn on each other.

Quite a bit of truth in that i'd say.

I would say what Abhisit was really getting at is that the reds as a political tool for Thaksin must go away. The reds without Thaksin are hardly a problem. Their complaints can be addressed through normal procedures, and an organization, even one as militant as the reds, can be negotiated with. They aren't all sociopaths.

It is the way Thaksin has corrupted them for his own purposes that is the real problem. And yes, I'm sure there are naive leaders within the red shirt who believe they can use Thaksin and then discard him when they are done. Should Thaksin ever succeed in his goal to reconquer the country, they will find out how truly wrong they are.

All that has to happen is that Thaksin denounces the reds, and they are effectively done as any kind of meaningful force in the country.

There are a HUNDRED ways the Thai government could have made Thaksin "go away". The fact that they did little, or nothing is the reason Thaksin haunts them to this day. Now Abhisit says the only way to have harmony is to eliminate the Red party. That is a bit like what George Bush was famously quoted as saying, to the effect that it is much harder to govern when you are not a dictator. Oh, democracy makes it so hard to keep the country together. Abhisit has shown that he is nothing more than a second rate politician. We all thought he was brilliant, and the solution to Thailands problems. After simply following the dictates of the military for 4 years, without putting up the slightest bit of a fight, we now realize he is bought and paid for too. So, for him to make a statement like this is disingenuous at best. I am no fan of the red shirts. "Yingbat" has shown herself to be beyond inept. But Abhisit has turned into a tiny crybaby. He is a shell of a man.

At least he has been known to answer questions put to him by the press.

[whybother]

There are a HUNDRED ways the Thai government could have made Thaksin "go away". The fact that they did little, or nothing is the reason Thaksin haunts them to this day. Now Abhisit says the only way to have harmony is to eliminate the Red party. That is a bit like what George Bush was famously quoted as saying, to the effect that it is much harder to govern when you are not a dictator. Oh, democracy makes it so hard to keep the country together. Abhisit has shown that he is nothing more than a second rate politician. We all thought he was brilliant, and the solution to Thailands problems. After simply following the dictates of the military for 4 years, without putting up the slightest bit of a fight, we now realize he is bought and paid for too. So, for him to make a statement like this is disingenuous at best. I am no fan of the red shirts. "Yingbat" has shown herself to be beyond inept. But Abhisit has turned into a tiny crybaby. He is a shell of a man.

"There are a HUNDRED ways the Thai government could have made Thaksin "go away"." - Name one thing that they could have done that would have made Thaksin go away.

"eliminate the Red party" - No one is talking about eliminating the PTP.

"After simply following the dictates of the military for 4 years" - Which 4 years was that?

"we now realize he is bought and paid for too." - What "makes you realize" that he [Abhisit] is bought and paid for?

"I am no fan of the red shirts." ... but ...

[hanuman1]

I offered the semantics thing as a graceful way out of the corner you have very firmly positioned yourself in with this narrow-minded, and therefore easy-to-adopt position.

You think the Unholy Trinity are one and the same. A true believer. People on the ground know different.

Don't concern yourself with trying to find graceful ways out for others, when you yourself have been relentless beating this same drum, month after month, year after year, of "you'll see, just you wait, any minute now the red shirt movement is going to morph into something more than just Thaksin, something that will help the people it falsely claims to give a shit about"... because month after month, year after year, all it ever does is prove you totally wrong.

What are you going on about? I never said 'you'll see, etc etc'. All I have ever said is NOW. I said 'now' two years ago that your unholy trinity was not one, I said last year that 'now' they are not the same, and NOW I'm saying they're not the same.

Why do you think that my saying they're not the same means that they are GOOD? That is your own invention, my friend. "If you don't agree with me, you must be directly opposed to me" - nice Bush-style logic there.

You no doubt consider me a 'red lover' because I like to defend grass roots red shirts against idiots who label them all as terrorists etc. Fine, then I'm a red lover.

My first post in this thread is one of only a few occassions that I've referred to what might happen to the red shirt movement in future, and one option was that they get used for their leaders' short term political ends. Whoever they may be in future. I don't particularly care what happens to the red shirt movement. I'm simply saying they are not the same as PTP and Thaksin NOW, just as they never have been.

Your inveterate need to simplify this situation to make scoring points in this forum easier for you is a good example of why this isn't the place to come for useful info on the subject. It is, however, precisely the place to come if you can't be bothered doing anything constructive and are looking for an excuse to waste a few hours sparring with someone else who also has too much time on their hands.

Carry on.

Edited December 21, 2011 by hanuman1

[tlansford]

-snip-

So patently uninformed on the subject it boggles the mind.

The Reds have their foot hold, and Thaksin or no Thaksin, yellows or no yellows, more likely with no Thaksin, they will push for their 'workers paradise' in any and all ways. He has reopened Pandora's box that was closed in the 70's, and we will all pay the price for his choice of temporary bedfellows.

The Yellows were protesting to get rid of Thaksin's corruption.

The ' making mayhem ' was caused by repeated violent attacks against them,

that radicalized their actions in self-defense. Culminating with the Oct 7th

shooting fish in a barrel incident, which with the night grenade attacks on their camp at Gov, House, lead to their taking the airport.

Lacking the extreme violence and deaths 'brought to them' by their opponents, it was obvious at the time that they would not have bothered with the airport but would have just continued their loud barking protest at G.H.

They since gone off the rails philosophically all on their own.

Ah, but the Reds, they have a core ideological group, based on neo-Maoist

action theory, and they have been handed a organizational umbrella to use.

Something denied them for 40 years.

They are not going to fade away as being nothing more than 'a counter to the yellows'. They have much longer term aims,emanating from the leadership that made a devils deal with Thaksins thugs and ass-kissers.

So if the Reds are "our best protection for democracy against the Yellows, Blues, Multi color ...." who the hell will protect the great majority of the populace from The reds????

So patently uninformed on the subject it boggles the mind.

Animatic, agree with you but not for the same post... neo-Maoist? Really? organizational umbrella ... denied them for 40 years? Really? The PAD was only violent in reaction to violence against them? Really? I think your characterizations are a bit simplistic on one hand and rather imaginative on the other.

I do agree with you, however, that the Red Shirt movement will not just "go away".

I suggest you read up on how Mao took over and controlled the populace of China.

Same methods and ways on display here, as the early Maoist methods, which have been written up in many books.

Animatic, we rarely agree politically but I recognize a poster who is normally well informed.

On this one, however, I feel that you are off the chart paranoid.

The red shirts are not monolithic. The red shirts are not under the control of one Mao-wannabe. The red shirts are a new phenomena in Thailand and a socio-political movement that consists of many different factions from (some) communists to hard-core capitalists.

As I am pretty certain that you know all this already, it surprises me that you can seriously put forth the How-Mao-took-over-China argument.

[ralphlsasser]

I'm sick of baby Abhisit crying about the red shirts. He can't stand it because he was VOTED out. In other words, the PEOPLE did not want him. He's part of the pu$$y Bangkok elite that have ran their course. I'm glad the PEOPLE are standing up for them selves and VOTING out the ones that do nothing except whine like babies.

[tragickingdom]

Abhisit is a moron. The "Dear Moron Brother number 2". Reconciliation comes when the people who ordered mass murder in Bangkok's streets and who followed and gave the orders are locked up in jail for a very very long time. Furthermore, Abhisit should be concerned about what he himself can control. Maybe that is disbanding his own party, going after the people who bought the judges in the TPI case and asking the yellow (or multi color) shirts to disband. Furthermore he should probably apologize and bow deep to the Thai people for using article 112 to lock up political opponents.

[rixalex]

What are you going on about? I never said 'you'll see, etc etc'. All I have ever said is NOW. I said 'now' two years ago that your unholy trinity was not one, I said last year that 'now' they are not the same, and NOW I'm saying they're not the same.

You have talked in the past about how the red movement may have started as a movement for Thaksin, but how it may develop into something more than that, and that is what gave me the impression that all this talk about PTP - Reds - UDD - Thaksin, not being all part of the same thing, was something you felt for the future. If i am wrong in my impression, and you think that as of this moment in time, they are not all part of the same thing, well then, you are even more wrong than i thought, if wrongness is gradable - guess it probably isn't. In which case, i'll settle for, you are still wrong.

Why do you think that my saying they're not the same means that they are GOOD?

I don't. To use your words: "That is your own invention, my friend".

You no doubt consider me a 'red lover' because I like to defend grass roots red shirts against idiots who label them all as terrorists etc. Fine, then I'm a red lover.

I wouldn't call you a red lover, that's a bit of a childish thing to call someone. I would say simply that you have red sympathies. I do too actually, if we were to believe the things the leaders of that group claim to be fighting for. Problem is, i don't believe them, and thus, i don't support or defend them.... unlike yourself.

I'm simply saying they are not the same as PTP and Thaksin NOW, just as they never have been.

And i'm simply saying that is nonsense that is proven as nonsense on almost a daily basis by their acts.

[whybother]

Abhisit is a moron. The "Dear Moron Brother number 2". Reconciliation comes when the people who ordered mass murder in Bangkok's streets and who followed and gave the orders are locked up in jail for a very very long time. Furthermore, Abhisit should be concerned about what he himself can control. Maybe that is disbanding his own party, going after the people who bought the judges in the TPI case and asking the yellow (or multi color) shirts to disband. Furthermore he should probably apologize and bow deep to the Thai people for using article 112 to lock up political opponents.

"Reconciliation comes when the people who ordered mass murder in Bangkok's streets"

No one ordered mass murder. Can we have reconciliation now?

[Crushdepth]

Abhisit is a moron. The "Dear Moron Brother number 2". Reconciliation comes when the people who ordered mass murder in Bangkok's streets and who followed and gave the orders are locked up in jail for a very very long time. Furthermore, Abhisit should be concerned about what he himself can control. Maybe that is disbanding his own party, going after the people who bought the judges in the TPI case and asking the yellow (or multi color) shirts to disband. Furthermore he should probably apologize and bow deep to the Thai people for using article 112 to lock up political opponents.

Bought the judges? Are you referring to the 'snack box full of cash' incident, where Thaksin's lawyer was caught red-handed trying to bribe court officials?

[hanuman1]

What are you going on about? I never said 'you'll see, etc etc'. All I have ever said is NOW. I said 'now' two years ago that your unholy trinity was not one, I said last year that 'now' they are not the same, and NOW I'm saying they're not the same.

You have talked in the past about how the red movement may have started as a movement for Thaksin, but how it may develop into something more than that, and that is what gave me the impression that all this talk about PTP - Reds - UDD - Thaksin, not being all part of the same thing, was something you felt for the future. If i am wrong in my impression, and you think that as of this moment in time, they are not all part of the same thing, well then, you are even more wrong than i thought, if wrongness is gradable - guess it probably isn't. In which case, i'll settle for, you are still wrong.

You no doubt consider me a 'red lover' because I like to defend grass roots red shirts against idiots who label them all as terrorists etc. Fine, then I'm a red lover.

I wouldn't call you a red lover, that's a bit of a childish thing to call someone. I would say simply that you have red sympathies. I do too actually, if we were to believe the things the leaders of that group claim to be fighting for. Problem is, i don't believe them, and thus, i don't support or defend them.... unlike yourself.

I'm simply saying they are not the same as PTP and Thaksin NOW, just as they never have been.

And i'm simply saying that is nonsense that is proven as nonsense on almost a daily basis by their acts.

Oh no it isn't....

[rixalex]

Oh no it isn't....

I think that person who was just recently bemoaning the quality of debate here might have a point. Now who was that... ?

[chuang]

I'm sick of baby Abhisit crying about the red shirts. He can't stand it because he was VOTED out. In other words, the PEOPLE did not want him. He's part of the pu$$y Bangkok elite that have ran their course. I'm glad the PEOPLE are standing up for them selves and VOTING out the ones that do nothing except whine like babies.

I like it.... :jap:

[Insight]

If somehow the Red shirt support base could be turned away from Thaksin to a Democrat/Red Shirt coalition I think the chance of progress within Thailand would be truly favourable. One wishes that the Shinwatra's would all just be vanquished from Thailand for good. Puff thats fairy dust. Where an environment wallows in corruption then it is ripe for scum like the Shinwatra's to fleece it.

Will there ever be a protest group demanding changes to the law involving freedom of expression, while also being utterly against Thaksin's very self-serving interference in Thai politics (and by that I mean a belief shared by every member)?

Unfortunately I don't think it's likely to happen anytime soon, which is a massive shame for Thailand.

Anyway, I'm off to read up on the current goings on of the "grass roots" red shirt movement on this thread. These are people with a real purpose!

[RogueLeader]

The redshirts are a symptom. 'Disbanding' them (which would in effect mean killing many of them and destroying some of their villages) will only address the symptom. Thai people have their livelihoods stolen through corruption and their votes bought by ambitious mediocrities.

There is an elephant in the room.