Dual Pricing

[robitusson]

When I first came to Thailand four years ago, my Thai was very basic and I was just starting to read. I still hadn't grasped the numbers and for that reason, ended up paying the 'entrance fee 30 baht' for a few of the temples in Ayutthaya instead of the ค่าเข้า ๕ บาท. It was these entrance fee signs, which motivated and coerced me to memorize the numbers, as it made it practicle.

I thought you were half Thai - don't you have a Thai passport?

In other words, any Joe, John, or Bob can come to Thailand on an automatic 30 day visa by simply buying an air ticket. But if Chai, Chang, or Champ want to go to go to the west, they got to provide a ridiculous bank statement that perhaps Joe John, or Bob wouldn't even be able to provide, as our embassies hold an automatic standard (discriminate) that a Thai applying for a visa is either A. working in the sex trade or B. Planning to migrate eternally (unless he/she can prove otherwise with a bank statement, etc.) Then again, someone English or Australlian is almost garunteed a visa to the states on first application without the same standards and requirements.

If Chai, Chang and Champ don't have to show a bank statement, half of my province would be going to the west and many of them would overstay. They would have the chance to earn 20 times more money than they do in Thailand.

If Thailand paid the average westerner 20 times what they got paid, do you think the government would have the same policy of no bank statement required?

For example - Somchai gets paid 5,000 baht per month for his work in Thailand. He goes to the UK and marries a local lass. He gets a job there paying the minimum wage. He is getting 5,000 baht a week now!

Hamish gets paid the equivalent of 200,000 baht in the UK. He sacrifices this to get a job in Thailand, where his wife comes from, for a fraction of this. He lives on 20,000 baht a month and yet has to show that he spends 40,000 just to get a visa.

Thais think that they are cleverer than the farang. it is almost like a national pastime - scam the farang. The standards of living are SO different, most Thai people can't understand.

On channel 3 this morning there was a woman going on about how Thai people are clever compared to the farang. Secretly she would love to marry one, but she might get looked on as a whore. She was the typical Thai entertainer who is resenful at 'stupid' farang. They come here and they throw their money around, leaving a tip of 20 baht for a taxi-driver! Crazy! That is equivalent to a Thai going to London and leaving a tip of 20 pounds. Think of it this way and you might realise why Thais think that we are all loaded or stupid or both.

I know many Thais who have studied and/or worked in England. None of them come back here skint. They are all made for life with the savings they got there in an average of 10 years. If people could come to Thailand and work for 10 years then retire to their home country, without ever having to work again, but they had to speak Thai, what price would it be for Thai lessons?

our embassies hold an automatic standard (discriminate) that a Thai applying for a visa is either A. working in the sex trade or B. Planning to migrate eternally (unless he/she can prove otherwise with a bank statement, etc.)

This is usually the case if someone hasn't got the funds in the bank!

For a Thai to be able to go to the Uk for a 2 week holiday, they must be ridiculously rich, so no problem for all the guys I know who go there. For a Westerner to come to thailand for a 2 week holiday, they don't have to be rich. This is a simple fact - accept it, unlike many Thai people.

The average Thai person is good, but when you give him lots of rich people who don't know the value of the money, they are bound to get a bit greedy.

Really interesting what the local Isaan people say about young girls who go to Pattaya to sell their bodies - "it's normal, they are winning a jackpot".

QUOTE(robitusson @ 2005-11-28 11:51:01)

QUOTE(GuestHouse @ 2005-11-28 02:34:51)

When you find it, report it FairPrice-Thailand.org

*

There's people where I work in Bangkok who get 4 times the amount that locals get for the same job. Oh...hang on, I'm one of them. Better not correct that unfair pricing.

*

You are a teacher, right?

A native speaker is not doing the same job as a local.

I can't think of any job in Thailand where the farang gets paid more than the local for doing the same thing.

Christ, I want a job as a taxi driver, but I can't do it - why not?

I want to work in my wife's restaurant, but I can't do it - why not?

There are lots of things about Thailand that I could moan about, but in the end the advantages outweigh them by far.

The dual pricing is not too important, but the subsequent thoughts of the Thai population are. I was in a car crash last week and they were trying to put the blame on me, even the police.

Thai people are always the winners whether they go to farangland, or farang come to Thailand. The moaners are the ones who can't partake or get a pice of the pie.

I have met a few guys who complain about the dual pricing while leaving ridiculous tips at restaurant, in taxis etc. Please if you are coming to Thailand read about the culture regarding tips, you make us easy targets.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was being glib. You're right, I am a teacher. And you're right the locals can't do my job strictly speaking. Filipinos can and they get a quarter my wage. That is real discrimination. The point is that this is way Thailand is. Doing teaching I notice that I and others doing my job, are streamlining and Westernising Thailand which will probably one day make it virtually unrecognisable from the West. However, in the meantime while it is still an enjoyable place for foreigners to be in it will remain chaotic, disorganised, deeply frustrating, badly and illogically run. The day things like dual-pricing goes is the day things like sueing for tripping over paving stones comes in. That's my point. Thailand is streamlined enough. It is a deeply unequal society, least of all to Farangs. I think focussing on dual pricing is a detail. Are we going to start a 60's style civil rights movement for downtrodden and discriminated-against Farangs?

[Stephen Cleary]

Go down to 'Ripley's Believe it or Not' in Pattaya and you will also find a Farang/American Enterprise also adhering to the two-tiering price system.

This is Thailand, and even if you carry a tourist/non-B/or a what-not visa you are still at the end of the day a 'foreigner'. I have known a couple of national park chiefs' etc.. and what they slightly abjected to, were a few foreigners, who unable to speak a word of the language, were thrusting their passport/wp in the face of the receptionist and shouting at the top of their voices 'I pay the Thai price!'

Now, how about if an Arab say, did that in Farangland??

Personally, where i come from, if any foreigner who couldnt speak a word of the local language came up and hailed for 'this and that' while thrusting his residency visa in the face of the locals would not be the most liked visitor around town.

If you are here on a long time basis, and even if you do not speak that much Thai and do not hold a wp or residency etc... the authorities in charge will be much more accepting and understandable if you just show a little bit of one thing and that is....Thai manners.

In my ten years here, i have never paid the 'foreign admission price'

[robitusson]

I went to the tiger reserve in Kanchanaburi which is a charity to help protect Thailands wildlife. Some Farang woman was trying to get out of paying the 200 Baht admission which goes to the upkeep of the reserve. She was saying, in English, to the guy at the desk "I pay taxes in this country, I don't pay" waving her passport at him. I'm glad to say she had to pay in the end. If she'd lived here long enough to pay taxes she'd know that none of it would end up going to something worthwhile like a wildlife reserve and most of it would go to Khun Thaksin for whatever he sees fit to use it for.

[GuestHouse]

It's only fair that long-term residents who have local income and pay taxes here should have the same rights as locals paying the subsidized fee. I wish this extended to other areas, i.e. medical, education, and real-estate, but it doesn't, atleast not yet.

Ah! The message is getting through.

The black woman refusing to give up her seat in the all white section of the bus, was not protesting about segregated seating - Segregated seating was not the issue.

The price is not the issue.

[robitusson]

It's only fair that long-term residents who have local income and pay taxes here should have the same rights as locals paying the subsidized fee. I wish this extended to other areas, i.e. medical, education, and real-estate, but it doesn't, atleast not yet.

Ah! The message is getting through.

The black woman refusing to give up her seat in the all white section of the bus, was not protesting about segregated seating - Segregated seating was not the issue.

The price is not the issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good luck anyway. Anyone who takes on Thai attitudes like this deserves commendation.

[sriracha john]

Never hurts to voice one's opinion on the matter to the responsible National Parks Department, with their online form:

http://www.dnp.go.th/complain/index.asp

[zzap]

If she'd lived here long enough to pay taxes she'd know that none of it would end up going to something worthwhile like a wildlife reserve and most of it would go to Khun Thaksin for whatever he sees fit to use it for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thaksin pockets the entrance fee to the Kanchanaburi tiger reserve?

How would you know?

[robitusson]

If she'd lived here long enough to pay taxes she'd know that none of it would end up going to something worthwhile like a wildlife reserve and most of it would go to Khun Thaksin for whatever he sees fit to use it for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thaksin pockets the entrance fee to the Kanchanaburi tiger reserve?

How would you know?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right. Wouldn't have a clue actually. Khun Thaksin is my catch-all scapegoat. Anytime I'm in doubt he gets the blame.

[samran]

Never hurts to voice one's opinion on the matter to the responsible National Parks Department, with their online form:

http://www.dnp.go.th/complain/index.asp

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sorry, but do you actually think anyone important actually READS this?

I can see it now.....run down government office in the back blocks of bangkok. Junior official being paid 5000 baht per month gets 15 minutes on one of the 5 computers she/he has to share with the other 60 staff in the office.

She pulls out a couple of sheets of already used printed paper, and prints out these comments (if she can read english) onto the unused side of the paper. She then signs off on it, passing it along to the inpile of the next minion up the food chain, being paid 6,000 baht (the extra 1000 THB per month is huge incentive to do your job properly you see). After about 18 months, it eventually reaches the top of the food chain, to a permanent secretary/minister of the department who

a) can't read english terribly well and

is more interested in building hotels and golf courses 'mistakenly' on government land.

He/She then reads your complaint that has been passed along the food chain. Takes note. Lo, behold, they might actually agree with what you are saying!

Quickly, they send out a directive for someone to do something. A committee is formed to consider the matter, before it is sent to another committee to approve the first committees recommendations. After about 2 years, the recommendation is then sent back to the permanent secretary's office, for final approval for the minister. Unfortunately for you, in the past 3.5 years, the PM has reshuffeld cabinet about 6 times, to reward some of his ever changing mates with a plum yet easy job. So your recommendation gets into the hands of a new minister, who has never heard of this proposal, doen't like the fact that he hasn't been part of the consultation process, so he forms his new committee to consider it, to report back to the minister responsible in due course........

[sriracha john]

Never hurts to voice one's opinion on the matter to the responsible National Parks Department, with their online form:

http://www.dnp.go.th/complain/index.asp

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sorry, but do you actually think anyone important actually READS this?

I can see it now.....run down government office in the back blocks of bangkok. Junior official being paid 5000 baht per month gets 15 minutes on one of the 5 computers she/he has to share with the other 60 staff in the office.

She pulls out a couple of sheets of already used printed paper, and prints out these comments (if she can read english) onto the unused side of the paper. She then signs off on it, passing it along to the inpile of the next minion up the food chain, being paid 6,000 baht (the extra 1000 THB per month is huge incentive to do your job properly you see). After about 18 months, it eventually reaches the top of the food chain, to a permanent secretary/minister of the department who

a) can't read english terribly well and

is more interested in building hotels and golf courses 'mistakenly' on government land.

He/She then reads your complaint that has been passed along the food chain. Takes note. Lo, behold, they might actually agree with what you are saying!

Quickly, they send out a directive for someone to do something. A committee is formed to consider the matter, before it is sent to another committee to approve the first committees recommendations. After about 2 years, the recommendation is then sent back to the permanent secretary's office, for final approval for the minister. Unfortunately for you, in the past 3.5 years, the PM has reshuffeld cabinet about 6 times, to reward some of his ever changing mates with a plum yet easy job. So your recommendation gets into the hands of a new minister, who has never heard of this proposal, doen't like the fact that he hasn't been part of the consultation process, so he forms his new committee to consider it, to report back to the minister responsible in due course........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

still, it's satisfying to know they certainly spent more time on it then it took to write:

"&lt;deleted&gt; YOU AND YOUR RACIST POLICY."

so I guess there is some small comfort that in some small way, you've feel gratified to know that you've voiced your opinion of displeasure with a policy to someone out there.... and their action requires more action than yours.

I actually was anticipating that absolutely nothing would happen to a complaint... but if all that activity actually happened, it would be vindicating.

[sriracha john]

If she'd lived here long enough to pay taxes she'd know that none of it would end up going to something worthwhile like a wildlife reserve and most of it would go to Khun Thaksin for whatever he sees fit to use it for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thaksin pockets the entrance fee to the Kanchanaburi tiger reserve?

How would you know?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're right. Wouldn't have a clue actually. Khun Thaksin is my catch-all scapegoat. Anytime I'm in doubt he gets the blame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and you are certainly justified in thinking so ....

[meemiathai]

Funny that this topic had been discussed to death and people like me still keep arguing, arguing and arguing.

I am not trying to win anything here and I respect the fact that people think differently than I do. One thing I would like to point out is it's my feeling that people who make this dual-pricing thing such a big deal had just simply been spoilt in their upbringing. They see things like a race-horse does with their eye-sight being blocked. There are people starving to death, there are people being tortured to death every minute in every corner. And what they think is so important is this 200baht entrance fee.

I know. This is serious. It's the principle not the money. And this is racism too!!?

It is like playing a football match against a team of deaf and blind people and keep complaining handballs to the referee. Oh yes, the rules do not allow handballs! But they can't even see where the bloody ball is! You guys are still going to be the winners! If it's the principle you are after, why not question yourselves if you should be blindfolding yourselves and wearing earplugs before even starting to complain? If it's a fair game you are after.

And please don't say we are not getting the message. We are! In fact it's probably because we understand more which makes us less concern about it.

You guys have always avoided discussing the points I make. And this is not a gentleman's behaviour. Please share with us your views on the fairness of income between an average Thai and an average Farang.

[steveromagnino]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is a deeply unequal society, least of all to Farangs. I think focussing on dual pricing is a detail. Are we going to start a 60's style civil rights movement for downtrodden and discriminated-against Farangs?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is fascinating.... so... you are saying that this policy is only against farangs?

Here i thought it was foreigners being discriminated against.... but is it only farangs?

If you think farangs have it here worst as foreigners...well I just cannot agree with that. Indians, Africans with dark skin... definitely get worse treatment than most farangs.

Mind you, most would not have enough money to get into the national parks perhaps; although then again TAT spending statistics for Indians being higher per day than for almost all farang countries (due to the upper echelon flying here to do their luxury shopping), the survey of the TAT is quite baised towards legal entry by air; coming in overland does not get surveyed that I recall in their 10,000 person questionnaire that they do at the airport.

Still, every country has some racism; at least every country I've ever been to, and I stand by the assertion that indians get it worst here in Thailand. So if I were to start any anti discrimination campaign (which I am not) then I would probably start with either 'embrace foreigners equally' campaign OR 'embrace Indians and put down the stick when you see a snake' campaign.... not 'downtrodden farangs'.

A 60s style movement can start when a decent number of farang who are Thai citizens have rights protected under the laws and constitution as a Thai citizens. Might have to get in the queue with the hill tribes and displaced people and pretty much all the poor in Thailand who get their rights trod on all the time. Do you think modern society has the desire to stand up for things they believe in like in the 60s? Carrying on that anology... I would say it could lead to the right of all farang with Thai citizenship to be given the right to the lower of the dual or mutiple prices. I also agree that it should be entirely open; people should have a right to see what they are paying. On many signs it is now bi lingual that I have seen. But I've seen very few signs compared to how many are out there.

To eliminate the pricing completely, I think the key is to convince the government that the damage to the country's reputation outweighs the financial gain. Can see the gem scams, dodgy tuk tuks, rampant prostitution and other issues probably being other issues worth discussing at the same time. From a legal standpoint, Maori people in NZ get free access to all fishing for trout - all other people pay. You must have a local partner to set up business in Saudi. Residents get discounts (as discussed earlier) all over the world. Businesses use price discrimination all the time. So the case cannot be won from a legal standpoint, that I can see - cannot see any law being applied when precedents exist all over the show for preferential treatment by nationality.

I believe in transparency for the whole thing - people should know how much they pay (although I might point out in some USA Ski resorts locals get all sorts of discounts I as a visitor neither know about or am eligible for); still not convinced that the budgets of the parks could necessarily survive without the additional funding from the tourist foreigners; and not convinced some poor family taking an annual trip to see Phanom Rung could afford to pay a lot more for the ticket....who can say?

[zzap]

Please share with us your views on the fairness of income between an average Thai and an average Farang.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In a nutshell, wages are related to expenses. Example: packet of cigs: Thai=36 Baht, UK=appro 400 Baht

Entrance fees and dual-pricing are not income related, but based on nationality. Example: Wat Prae Kaeo: Thai multimillionaire=free, Philippine English teacher=200 Baht, 'Farang' student= 200 Baht.

[GuestHouse]

You guys have always avoided discussing the points I make. And this is not a gentleman's behaviour. Please share with us your views on the fairness of income between an average Thai and an average Farang.

The Thai guy sitting in the same office as me gets a very similar salary +/- age experience differences.

[Stephen Cleary]

The foreigner ought to be allowed to know that he is being asked for five or ten times the price than a local is.

The foreigner ought to have the 'freedom to choose', that is - whether he is willing to pay the stated two-tiered price or not.

Over the years however, it seems that the Thais in charge, have been rather embarrassed by their own two-tiering price system and so have made a habit of posting the Thai price in Thai numerals so that the foreigner won't be able to read how much the locals are paying.

That is what i object to. Foreigners ought to have the 'Freedom to Choose'.

If the Thais wish to try and charge tourists ten times the price well...let them try. BUT it is only fair that the two-tiered price system be posted in English for all to see.

Anyone agree on that??

[steveromagnino]

The foreigner ought to be allowed to know that he is being asked for five or ten times the price than a local is.

Anyone agree on that??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well in many cases it is not that magnitude, but as a general principle I think yes, transparency is the best thing. I'd be happy to pay the cost at Angkor Wat for instance even if all Cambodians got in free. I wouldn't object here either for anything that was 300b. But that's me; people should have enough information to choose for themselves.

So yep, got my vote.

There is however, no law or legal requirement to do so that I can think of. Only one of marketing and of image. Also, needs clear definition of what a local is. For me; either you have Thai citizenship or permanent residency and proof of such on your person = local. Otherwise...not local.

Agreed?