6 Year Old Daughter Taken During Visit To Thailand Although I Have Custody Through Amphur

[theblether]

Get the paperwork and get back to Thailand ASAP. Retain an attorney here just in case. Have your outbound tickets booked and ready to go. Hire a couple of guys as muscle, walk in and take her away. Have a wad of cash on hand to ease your way if she has any uniforms on her side.

There is no concept of "kidnapping" by a biological parent in Thailand, no matter who has legal custody. The letter of the law doesn't mean much if she has local cops on her side, but as soon as you're at the airport on your way out all you need is the custody paperwork and passports.

Don't come back.

I agree with this post. The X wife can go to court and try to get the custody agreement suspended, in which case the judge (in MY opinion) is more likely to award temporary custody to the parent who is currently in custody of the child. Again, that's an opinion based on hearsay. To prevent this from happening, time is CRUCIAL. Get the paperwork. Go to Thailand. Bring cash and muscle. Get your daughter back and get the he** out of Thailand.

I was part of a small team that helped a friend in a similar situation earlier this year, worked like a charm.

The problem with this solution for the OP is that he is in the US military, in my ( to be fair limited experience ) of dealing with the JAG office he has to be very careful, more careful than civilians so to speak, as to how he conducts himself here. If his ex-wife is switched on at all she'll know the repercussions of a complaint to the JAG office.

The other problem the OP has is with his direct chain of command, I've seen some outstanding support given to US mitary members, and I've seen some surreal and atrocious decisions been made as well. So please keep in mind that the OP can't just go AWOL, and that he is subject to a far more layered legal system than civilians.

So what looks like excellent advice to civilians is just not "do-able" for the OP.

Edited December 30, 2011 by theblether

[InterestedObserver]

The problem with this solution for the OP is that he is in the US military, in my ( to be fair limited experience ) of dealing with the JAG office he has to be very careful, more careful than civilians so to speak, as to how he conducts himself here. If his ex-wife is switched on at all she'll know the repercussions of a complaint to the JAG office.

The other problem the OP has is with his direct chain of command, I've seen some outstanding support given to US mitary members, and I've seen some surreal and atrocious decisions been made as well. So please keep in mind that the OP can't just go AWOL, and that he is subject to a far more layered legal system than civilians.

So what looks like excellent advice to civilians is just not "do-able" for the OP.

From the U.S. Department of State. "Parental Kidnapping is not a crime in Thailand and Thai authorities will not issue a warrant or become involved should one parent take a child without the other parent's authorization. The Hague Convention on the Civil Aspects of International Child Abduction cannot be invoked if a child is taken from the United States to Thailand, or vice versa, by one parent against the wishes of the other parent........."

There is nothing JAG can do for the OP, except perhaps put him in contact with a Thai lawyer. The OP either has to take back custody of his daughter by whatever legal means (see above) or go to Court in Thailand which can be an expensive and time consuming process with an uncertain outcome.

[Bung]

It makes a big deal if one has legal custody or not in Thailand, as a person who has custody can determine the place where a minor stays. A person without custody cannot and can be charged with kidnapping.

Yes, the OP has the right to just take his child. He would not be advised to do that on private property, as he would be tresspassing and it would be better to take the child away from somebody else than the mother. If it is legal is however something alse than if it is wise or safe to do so.

In Thailand a person with "parental power" has a better legal position. The ex-wife may not have signed away her parental power when she agreed to sole custody for the father during the Amphur divorce. The OP may have sole custody, but the ex-wife could retain significant authority to manage the affairs of the child.

The term parental powers means that one has legal authorithy over a child. If you don't have it, you have nothing to say.

Yes, it is important to check what the agreement actually says and what provisions it actually makes.

I just checked my papers and I am trying to be sure of this - On the form Khor Ror 6 it say's that we have a child together who is under the sole custody of the male party. Pretty straight forward, but:

I take it that that does not mean I have "Parental powers"? How do I go about obtaining parental powers? Through the courts?

Like I said, I am being threatened with him being taken away. Unfortunately, I am not able to care for him full time as I work away but I hope to be able to do that next year and want to be able to take him stay with me full time as sole custodian without any hurdles. He is in a good school here, has a good home with me if he gets taken away he will be disadvantaged.

Hope to get a clarification of "Parental powers" and hope that it will also help the OP.

[Bung]

Sorry, I just read the link that Mario 2008 posted on the first page which explains parental powers and custody.

http://thailawonline.com/en/family/children/custody-of-a-child-thailand.html

So it seems that one can have sole custody but both parents retain parental powers.

One parent can be granted parental powers only through an order of the court (divorce judgement) or interstingly "The Mother and Father have come to such an agreement as provided by the law that it can be made"

So it looks like if you want custody and full parental powers you would need it noted at the divorce proceedings at the amphur or at the courts.

I am not sure how this affects one parent having sole custody while both parents have parental powers with regard to who can keep a child legally. Typically, it just confuses things and now I am dissapointed that the (very expensive) lawyer I went to see about custody when I divorced never mentioned parental powers.......

[Mario2008]

Sorry, I just read the link that Mario 2008 posted on the first page which explains parental powers and custody.

http://thailawonline...d-thailand.html

So it seems that one can have sole custody but both parents retain parental powers.

One parent can be granted parental powers only through an order of the court (divorce judgement) or interstingly "The Mother and Father have come to such an agreement as provided by the law that it can be made"

So it looks like if you want custody and full parental powers you would need it noted at the divorce proceedings at the amphur or at the courts.

I am not sure how this affects one parent having sole custody while both parents have parental powers with regard to who can keep a child legally. Typically, it just confuses things and now I am dissapointed that the (very expensive) lawyer I went to see about custody when I divorced never mentioned parental powers.......

Yes, one person can have custody over the child while both parents retain parental powers. Than it means that the care of the child is in the hand of the person having custody, but both parents have authorithy over the minor. You have to realize that the term custody means something like "having hold of " the child, in whose care the child is. Parental powers means that one has authorithy over a minor and can decide things as where the child stays, to which school he goes etc.

However, that is a legal destinction. In every day talk these term are often mixed up and when people, including lawyers etc, use the word custody the actually mean "parental powers". Even the government does this and especially when you see the term "sole custody" being used, it usually means "sole parental powers". The translation of the wording is often simply wrong and what is important is what it says in Thai.

Even if there is only a divorce agreement over who takes care over a minor, that agreement is a contract and cannot just be altered wihout agreement form both parties. If the parents don't agree, than one has to go to court to change the contract.

In your case you mention sole custody, I think it means you have sole parental powers. Member mikeyidea can give you the Thai term for that.

[scott1999]

i wish, you will be together again soon,

[Derifo]

Sorry if there is confusion. Embassy was closed on xmas when this took place and her mother is Thai (living in Bangkok now), the police took her word and did not care for proof. Im sure she can prove she is her mother. i have the custody/divorce agreement with me here (at home) but did not have them during the visit in Thailand. i fought with her all day, no one even seemed concerned for my daughter.

I appreciate your reply. I am in the military, dont have the time to spend another month (ever how long it would take) for courts. If that happens to be the only way, Im afraid my daughter will be missing the rest of her school year and I will have to come back in a few months.

I was hoping it would be as simple as showing authorities my proof of custody and having my daughter returned immediately so we could come back home.

Thanks again for replying.

Sorry man. just try to always have scanned copies of such documents saved in the cloud, or even your e-mail as draft. I use Dropbox and Ubuntu One.

[LPCustom69]

Good luck, I hope everything works out in your favor soon!

[kloster17]

Wanted to update and give the finale of this insane experience. So I left without my daughter on the 26^th. I did my homework as best as possible (as if there are any real rules to abide by) and had a friend who was very interested in helping and playing translator for me with the police upon my return in Bangkok. I sent her the documents (email) and she showed her local police and a friend who worked with law offices (not a lawyer though). She said everyone felt it was a no brainer, just come back, go to the police again and it would be over, the documents clearly stated my daughter belongs with me.

I also called the embassy which a lady named Shannon who works with these cases explained they had no power, worst case scenario, they could only write a letter to the Chief of Police recommending they take action and that this almost always sorted things out in the past. They would be closed during my stay 1 – 4 January (opening up on the 4^th), but to call her and let her know how it went. I wonder why she even said that (to make it seem as if she cared?)

So on the 2^nd (I arrived late on the 1^st) me and my friend headed to the police station in Bangkok that had previously said I needed the documents for them to do anything. We had everything in order, including my ex’s address and phone numbers as well as her family’s as she was living with them. The station was Lumpini, this time they had an English translator (falang), was not there on Xmas when this originally happened. They were full of excuses from the get go, saying I needed to go to the station where her address falls under. Ok “I thought, but I wanted to know if they would really even support me”. I asked straight out, if my ex and child were here at this moment, would my documents get me my child. The answer was no, it would not. You need an order from a judge in her district. The amphur agreement meant nothing according to the shady policeman on duty, perhaps I should seek a lawyer (recommended by the falang translator).

So they went from needing the documents to deciding my documents did not hold water and it was the same hurry up and get out of my face attitude as the last time. I decided I wanted a second opinion, were these guys shooting from the hip and just didn’t want to help me, lazy etc.. biased perhaps? I went to the police in her district. No translator and I would very much need my friends help. One person on watch, and he was relaxing, watching football. Fair enough, I work law enforcement for the military, I can relate to a relaxed atmosphere during the holidays. They made copies of my documents, called an officer in and sent him to the address right away (wow, Im feeling hopeful at this point). Suddenly officers are coming out of the wood works, asking her questions and joking, laughing. I saw through them instantly, they wanted to know if I was sleeping with my friend but playing with us. They said to leave and they would call us later with results. They had everything, address, her phone number, her family’s residence phone number etc… No excuses about needing a judge’s order this time but no guarantee I would get my daughter if they found her either.

6 hours later I had to accept defeat, time was running short and I couldn’t wait for the police (as if they had given us a second thought once out of sight). There simply would be no help from the authorities, it was pointless. Paper work means nothing here unless someone with power wants to help you. I was a falang who walked in with a Thai lady and I was not worth wasting any time on. My friend called just for the hell of it to see what they found out. They said no one was home, to call again later and they would call us when they found her.

I knew the next step was a lawyer, but what is a lawyer going to do in 2 days? I knew the answer would be nothing good and require time I simply did not have or probably money I didn’t have. It was time to call the ex and bargain (hoping she would answer her phone this time). She did answer and she was ready to get payed this time (I guess she was saving face last time), of course she wanted more money but at this point I would do almost anything for my daughter back. So I payed, learned another dear lesson and have my daughter back and we are back home.

I asked the ex where she had been during the day as well as her family. She said they were at home all day of course. The police lied. They never went to her house and they never even called any number at all. A 6 year old child was being held against her will from her routine life (doesn’t speak Thai) and was being used as bait for money. This was explained in great detail through my friend. They could care less.

I am not writing this for entertainment purposes, I want to let people know, there is no system in place in Thailand for these circumstances. Yes, you can pay a lawyer money, get a court date and a judgement in your favor. At that very moment you are safe and will get your child. However it is my belief that if your stupid enough to visit with your ex (as I was) and she decides to take your child, the police could care less about your paper work that you received during your lengthy court trial and judgement and you will have to repeat the same lawyer and court thing again. The police do not enforce anything, they only force you back to court again with their runaround nonsense. You have no security or guarantee regarding your child. It’s the wild wild west where people do what they want. Your not Thai, so your not in the club. There will be no quick response, only the runaround until you realize you pay up (if thats an option for you) or wait forever and spend money to the lawyers and authorities. There is no security blanket or help from the Embassy, just a waste of time as they can do nothing.

Just wanted to pass this info along. I will never make this mistake again. If my daughter wants to see her mother, it will be on her money and her time when she is old enough to buy and fly alone in the future. Thailand can be a scary place if you need help from the authorities and you are not Thai. Thanks again to everyone that responded.

[jackr]

Excellent! Forget the money, just get on with your lives and never bring her back. I hope in the future your sad excuse for a female ex will see the error of her ways and deeply regret taking money over her flesh 'n blood. Probably not, but who cares either way; pure scum.

Oh, and the police would treat their own exactly the same. Thai or farang, unless you have connections or lots of money to hand over, in situations like this, they couldn't care less. Just pathetic really.

Well done!

[Mario2008]

^{Congratulations on having your child back.}

^{As to your comment about being a foreigner against a Thai, at least in the courts that is not true. What is true is that the police are always slow and reluctant to act in family cases (foreigner or not) and don't want to get involved. (Unless the child is in danger, than they can and will act very swiftly).}

^{Based on your experiences you can have the visitation rights of your wife changed in a US-court, should your ex tries to get it enforced.}

[sandhurstmolonski]

I Also cannot add to the detail that others have provided ..However , I just want to State that I feel for you and certainly understand that your story is an honest one ... I can only imagine your pain .

Wishing you all the very best with getting your daughter back , I think the " do not return " advice sounds pretty good to me .

[kimamey]

Only just seen this thread by chance. Really glad you've got your daughter back.

I can see why you wouldn't want to take your daughter back for a visit again. I can also see why people would advise against abiding by an visiting order given this sort of incident. It's a shame that something like this may make it difficult for genuine people to come to sensible arrangement and believe in it. In another case it could be someone in your position who makes an arrangement to visit but then doesn't abide by it and deprives the former partner of the chance to see their child and the child to see their parent. That's why it's important for the authorities to enforce these agreements properly so both parties can have confidence in them.

[Forethat]

Money well spent. Good on you! All the best to both of you!

[scott1999]

well done that man, happy ending , nice

[samsiam]

Job done good.

How much did you have to fork over ?

[theblether]

Excellent news.......if you were ever in doubt about the character of your ex-wife before there can be no doubt now. Your little girl will be needing loads of TLC, I have no doubt you can provide it.

Please dont come back and subject yourself or your child to this possibly happening again.

[farang000999]

Congrats OP. this should be stickied and mass mailed out to T.V.

[stardancer]

Congrats OP. I was supposed to return to thailand with my son this year, but as I have a rocky relationship with the wife, & after reading your story and some others here on TV. I told her my son and I will not be going to Thailand until he is old enough to look after himself. I just could not go through what you and others have. Ofcourse it went down like a lead balloon, mother in law is not to happy..

Good on you for putting the whole detailed story on TV. I hope you little one recovers from her stay in Thailand...

[steve187]

may you and your daughter be happy together in USA, and may this sad episode bring you even closer together. A happy new year story

[salavan]

all i know is that parental child abduction is not an offence in thailand