Jehovah'S Witnesses In Chiang Mai

[udonguy]

It doesn't matter if they are JW, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians, Catholics, or any other denomination of Christians. If they are even arrogant enough to go to church on Sunday's, the ThaiVisa faithful are going to pile on to bitch & moan about them.

you got it wrong again! it's not about IF they go to church, temple or coven. My OP was about they go around trying to convert by knocking on doors and the arrogance of that.

[udonguy]

You might perhaps dig a little deeper in your research. In most countries JW's use other bibles then their own, simply because its not available in all the 500 or so language territories they operate. In many countries they use the King James version. In others, they use what ever bibles are available. The 3000 or so Thai Jehovah's Witnesses use a bible from the Thai bible society, which has no affiliation with JWs. .

the 3000 or so JW's here should remember they live in a Buddhist country and show some respect! not go around trying to push their arrogant beliefs on others. Go do it in an Islamic country and see what they get - they are lucky the Thais are so tolerant and they take advantage of it.

[ianf]

"JWs are bad news, I did some research into thier origins, the bible they use has been altered from the original by thier founder, they call themselves christians but some of the basic tennets are very different, they don't evangelise, they pester and bother, I have heard of a person having to use force to get them out of the house back in Australia after they gained entry, the person's wife didn't speak good english."

Simply not true. They do not force themselves into people's houses. Believe me. My whole family are JWs and as I said in my earlier post I was brought up as one until I rebelled at the age of 12. They have a very strict code to which they adhere. Also JWs have their magazines in Thai and their books too. I've seen a bible but not sure if it is there's or copped in from some other tragic source. Look I have no remit to defend these people - I hate 'em - but if we're gonna post do so on the basis of fact.

[OldGringo]

There are worse people in the world than Jehovah's Witnesses.

As zany as they are they take their place with the rest of us. Times have changed since Thais just saw certain types of farang. Now it's the complete spectrum of humanity. The whole banquet, everything from fruit to nuts.

They have made a lot of converts in the USA among blacks and poor whites, many of whom are receptive to their silly fables.

They are persistent because they have learned the age-old lesson that persistence pays.

My experience has been that if you tell them politely but firmly that you are not interested they will leave you alone. It's not necessary to appear naked at your door or invoke the ghost of Christopher Hitchens to scare them away.

This is a pretty good summing-up and should have put an end to the thread.

Secular Humanism is the religion of the age and woe to those who oppose it. A firestorm of criticism comes down on the head of anyone who dares question it's tenets.

Didn't most of us come to Thailand to live among these [generally] tolerant Thai people?

We don't need displaced fanatics, religious nuts, and militant atheists to remind us of what we left behind.

[CaitlinHappyMeal]

This thread's just reminded me to watch "Black Books" over again... I think it was one of the first few episodes when he was trying to avoid doing his tax returns when they turned up at the door... Funny as hell...

Blacks books, now you're talkin!! Great comedy!

[TomTao]

Most JWs may stick to a strict code of conduct, but just as in every group there are those who go beyond the guidelines, I also have personal experience of having to lock my door to keep them from entering uninvited, just because most don't do it doesn't mean some do.

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[msg362]

The ever-present, ever-strong, ThaiVisa anti-religion bigots out in full-force again!

These threads are so pitiful, old and overdone.

I don't understand why being anti religious is bigotry Please explain.

[msg362]

Would you equally find it arrogant of Thai Buddhists to visit European countries or the US to set up temples and places of worship, who might or might not disturb local believes? Does a shiny gold temple in middle of Sweden or Swiss perhaps "anger" and show "act of arrogance" towards entrenched believes, let alone the esthetics and established architecture of the local communities?

By the way.... the countries mentioned above have large Thai temples, with good number of worshipers and you won't find much in the news of people fretting about it.

But they don't go round knocking on doors, they wait for people to come to them A big difference

[msg362]

Right.. though developing that strong will is pretty much a goal in itself for me as a parent. And consider that bringing them up completely atheist is also very confining, not to mention troubling for kids because there are few comforting answers in atheism. And it even makes it more likely for kids to then challenge that and turn to some relation as they get older. So a little religion keeps people sane, that's what it's for. I'm okay with using it as such for children, just like using the tooth fairy to turn a troubling experience into a good one. Just don't overdo it, to the point where it interferes with daily life.

Mind you atheism claims to provide no answers - it's simply a lack of belief in god(s), rather than a belief in a lack of god(s). That definition is accepted by a majority of 'thinking' atheists, and it's one Dawkins subscribes to.

I made a lot of effort to introduce my kids to all manner of religions - and encouraged them from an early age to think about all the different beliefs and claims. I took them to Muslim, Orthodox Xian, Buddhist and mainstream Xian religious ceremonies, among others. If they made/make categorical statements about the nonexistence of deities, I dispute and argue this with them too. It's all about helping their critical thinking faculties to develop.

I agree bringing kids up to believe in the wholesale 'wrongness' of religion is not helpful, but that is not what atheism is about. But when the JWs come knocking on the door now, mine are well equipped for the debate. I hope I've taught them to respect the views of others too, no matter how apparently foolish they might be.

Fortunately in Europe, as opposed to the US, kids who are brought up to doubt (Voltaire or someone wrote "doubt is uncomfortable, but certainty is ridiculous"), even if they do turn to other relatives (not my experience, with four kids, three between 16 and 23), are more likely to find an infidel among their relations than a believer!

So Winnie, you think that telling your kids something that is a fable is OK because one day you will tell them the truth?

[msg362]

BTW my son loves Mickey Mouse and Santa. As yet his milk teeth are still intact so the tooth fairy is something to look forward to!

Hahahah, I was already worried that someone would catch on to that.. Kids only start changing their teeth aged 6-7 or so.

( "I would save your teeth, honey, and change them all in when there is a more favourable exchange rate." )

I do understand now though why there the need for a tooth fairy; losing teeth for a 6 year old is very troubling. If you can turn that into a good thing AND give them something to look forward to then it all becomes easier, so enter the tooth fairy. Similar concept actually to how adults deal with troubling or disturbing facts of life.

When you bring up a child, conveying information with parental authority - such as passing on your Christianity - is a form of indoctrination that is hard to shake off in later years. We are programmed, as infants, to respect and believe our parents - and this programming is vital for survival. If your dad tells you to look both ways before crossing the road, and you are not inclined to believe him, then your chances of a long life are reduced considerably.

So I agree with Winnie that religious indoctrination is wrong, especially from early childhood. Giving kids the option to choose is significantly reduced by bringing them up within the confined belief structures of one religion or other. It takes a strong will to shake off such programming, no matter how ridiculous the belief system. This has been demonstrated over and over again, in studies.

Right.. though developing that strong will is pretty much a goal in itself for me as a parent. And consider that bringing them up completely atheist is also very confining, not to mention troubling for kids because there are few comforting answers in atheism. And it even makes it more likely for kids to then challenge that and turn to some relation as they get older. So a little religion keeps people sane, that's what it's for. I'm okay with using it as such for children, just like using the tooth fairy to turn a troubling experience into a good one. Just don't overdo it, to the point where it interferes with daily life.

I mean, what do atheists do when a kid's dog gets run over by a truck.. put them on Prozac? "He's in doggie heaven now, it's a better place." Done.

But you know it;'s a lie. So why lie?

[jdinasia]

The ever-present, ever-strong, ThaiVisa anti-religion bigots out in full-force again!

These threads are so pitiful, old and overdone.

I don't understand why being anti religious is bigotry Please explain.

You might wish to consult a dictionary then

[msg362]

I think we should start an Atheist door to door campaign! We should all wear white shirts ,ties and black trousers to confuse the morons out there! Let's preach humanity, without the rest of the stuff.

Good idea. What sort of atheism? On similar notes as in the USSR, Khmer Rouge in Cambodia? Enver Hoxha's worlds first Atheist state, Albania?

Very humble and stellar attitude to start your "humanity" campaign by referring to the public, as morons.

Atheism is an ABSENCE of belief in supernatural powers. It does not provide an alternative,the burden of proof lies with those who assert the presence of a supernatural power. I can assert the presence of a flying teapot, just as Bertrand Russel did. Prove me wrong! In the examples you gave, religion was replaced by an alternative, just as in North Korea today they are deifying the last dictator. I did not refer to the public as morons, simply a ( bad) joke on mormonsim, which I think had already been made. Anyone who can believe that god dictated to a 19th Century man on gold tablets deserves to be called a moron.

[onthedarkside]

2 posts removed (1 off topic and the inflammatory response)

[uptheos]

It does not provide an alternative,the burden of proof lies with those who assert the presence of a supernatural power. I can assert the presence of a flying teapot, just as Bertrand Russel did.

Well said and well quoted.....indeed BR was a great mind.

[Fookhaht]

The ever-present, ever-strong, ThaiVisa anti-religion bigots out in full-force again!

These threads are so pitiful, old and overdone.

I don't understand why being anti religious is bigotry Please explain.

You might wish to consult a dictionary then

Beat me to it. . . .

[funcat]

It does not provide an alternative,the burden of proof lies with those who assert the presence of a supernatural power. I can assert the presence of a flying teapot, just as Bertrand Russel did.

Well said and well quoted.....indeed BR was a great mind.

"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong. "

Bertrand Russell

[uptheos]

It does not provide an alternative,the burden of proof lies with those who assert the presence of a supernatural power. I can assert the presence of a flying teapot, just as Bertrand Russel did.

Well said and well quoted.....indeed BR was a great mind.

"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong. "

Bertrand Russell

Why I am not a Christian by Bertrand Russell, remains one of the finest essays against religion.

"Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes....A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men"

I can't follow that!.......

Edited January 3, 2012 by uptheos

[funcat]

It does not provide an alternative,the burden of proof lies with those who assert the presence of a supernatural power. I can assert the presence of a flying teapot, just as Bertrand Russel did.

Well said and well quoted.....indeed BR was a great mind.

"I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong. "

Bertrand Russell

Why I am not a Christian by Bertrand Russell, remains one of the finest essays against religion.

"Religion is based, I think, primarily and mainly upon fear. It is partly the terror of the unknown and partly, as I have said, the wish to feel that you have a kind of elder brother who will stand by you in all your troubles and disputes....A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men"

I can't follow that!.......

...I can't ether..

...but going back to the original topic....Jehovah's Witnesses is the deviation from the religion,so it should be ignored IMO...and that's what I'm doing,when they knock to my door

[WinnieTheKhwai]

So Winnie, you think that telling your kids something that is a fable is OK because one day you will tell them the truth?

[...]

you know it;'s a lie. So why lie?

It's not only lies and fables, it's also a moral frame of reference. I don't actively teach or preach it, but they do get a fair amount of Christianity in school; nothing over the top though. It's useful to learn a bit about it because so many people in the world are religious. It makes sense to study and experience the beliefs of so many people. And it may provide a comforting line when a pet or a relative dies.

Then when they realize 'wait, this is all complete bullshit' then that's fine too. I don't care enough about religion to actively discourage it or counter it. And as stated above, it may be convenient and comforting in some cases.

[Johpa]

Anyone who can believe that god dictated to a 19th Century man on gold tablets deserves to be called a moron.

This is where people here straddle on religious bigotry. Just because someone believes something that you do not believe does not make them a moron. If that were the case then the entire world becomes moronic, which it seems to be some days, but not because of beliefs. Look, I am an a-theist, I don't believe in any invisible man in the sky. But most of my friends do not share my thoughts as they believe in some sort of theistic deity associated with one myth or another, and the last thing I would call these people are morons. On the contrary, they are for the most part good, caring people, especially the Mormons I have met; although I would prefer they alter their breeding habits.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Johpa

[msg362]

The ever-present, ever-strong, ThaiVisa anti-religion bigots out in full-force again!

These threads are so pitiful, old and overdone.

I don't understand why being anti religious is bigotry Please explain.

You might wish to consult a dictionary then

Beat me to it. . . .

Seems to me it's simply asking for evidence of unproved assertions. That seems to upset people of faith. don't understand why it should.

[msg362]

Anyone who can believe that god dictated to a 19th Century man on gold tablets deserves to be called a moron.

This is where people here straddle on religious bigotry. Just because someone believes something that you do not believe does not make them a moron. If that were the case then the entire world becomes moronic, which it seems to be some days, but not because of beliefs. Look, I am an a-theist, I don't believe in any invisible man in the sky. But most of my friends do not share my thoughts as they believe in some sort of theistic deity associated with one myth or another, and the last thing I would call these people are morons. On the contrary, they are for the most part good, caring people, especially the Mormons I have met.

to believe in the absurd is moronic

[funcat]

"Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience"-Marc Twain

[KRS1]

Next time religious people come knocking, tell them you worship the devil and see what they say....lol

[dickyknee]

I haven't had one at my door for many years now, and i think that is more co-incidence than anything else.

last time i did answer the door, i was in my undies (for no other reason than they just got me out of bed) and i actually fell asleep with my head on the door frame while they were talking. i worked night shift at the time, so 10am was a really bad time for me.

they never knocked again... but they continued to deliver their magazines to my door *religiously* for many years.

[PoodMaiDai]

This is why you don't put a ringer on your gate.

Lock the door, no one can bother you.

[TomTao]

The difference is that Buddhist's DON'T go around trying to convert people who just want to be left alone in peace in their dwelling place! for them to come to a Buddhist country and try and 'convert' is bloody arrogant.

Why don't they go to Iraq or another fierce Muslim country and try the same technique? won't be many of the infidels left after a few knocking on doors/tents or whatever

Actually there have been cases where Christian missionaries have been imprisoned in Muslim countries for proselytizing. Do you consider that to be a good thing?

Not just arrested, executed, Saudi Arabia has religious police who often raid home churches and arrest anyone not following the Islamic faith, that includes all religions not sanctioned in Saudi Arabia, that means all religions except Islam, they build mosques all over the world, but will not allow any churches or temples in thier own country.

[hanuman1]

Next time religious people come knocking, tell them you worship the devil and see what they say....lol

I have a dog called Satan and he barks decidedly longer and harder when JW's are in the house. I shit you not.

I do invite them in because I find them interesting. Not only because they provide a good insight into the mechanics of persuasion but also because you can get into quite interesting scientific debates with them about atoms, the universe etc. At least with the ones I met.

It always seems to boil down to this though. They reckon the world is so intricate and great that there must have been a Creator. I reckon the world is so intricate and great that there can't have been a Creator.

They try to use science to help with the persuasion but since science itself has such glaring current limitations in its search for the 'Truth', any shift in opinion towards the JW standpoint can only ever be a leap of faith despite their efforts at a tangible proof.

At the end of the day, people need to learn to live with not Knowing certain things.

[wedders]

Bigots, for daring to give an opinion?

Oh well never mind, as Hitch once said, "my own opinion is enough for me, and I claim the right to have it defended against any consensus, any majority, anywhere, any place, any time. And anyone who disagrees with this can pick a number, get in line and kiss my ass."

No, bigots for condemning anyone of Western faith while hypocritically claiming to be tolerant of the ever present religion of their adopted country.

Well as an atheist myself, ie someone who has no belief in god(s), and not belief in no god(s), I resent your straw man mispresentations of non-believers en bloc. Although there are exceptions, we do not "condemn anyone of Western faith", and nor have I seen any significant evidence of people doing so in this thread.

The Buddhist religion is another matter entirely, it involves no monotheistic creator deity, allegedly superior to all alternatives. On the contrary it shows tolerance of other belief systems, and many Christians would do well to follow its example.

Edited January 4, 2012 by wedders

[wedders]

The ever-present, ever-strong, ThaiVisa anti-religion bigots out in full-force again!

I don't understand why being anti religious is bigotry Please explain.

You might wish to consult a dictionary then

Beat me to it. . . .

Those accusing non-believers of bigotry should take a closer look at the dictionary themselves. Being anti-religion does not equate to being anti-religious people. There is a major distinction. To make it clearer to the hard of understanding, I am anti-religion, while noting clear differences in the effect of monotheistic religions, to, say, deist or pantheist worldviews. At the same time, I have some great and close Christian/Muslim friends.

Edited January 4, 2012 by wedders