How Dirty Is The Power In Bangkok?

[attrayant]

Since I've been here (about 3 months), I have had three apple iPad chargers go dead. They are voltage-variable and should be able to handle 110-220. The only think I can think of is that the power line is extremely dirty here - lots of power spikes and such. Has anybody here analyzed it? I'm wondering if I should put a double-conversion UPS in-line with anything more expensive, such as a flat screen TV to protect it. Thoughts?

[astral]

Moved to general tech section

[pattayadingo]

I use a good quality surge protector on the computer and its peripherals. Obviously if you have or are inputting important data into the computer a UPS is a good safeguard.

Have to admit I have never had a problem with televisions or other electrical devices suffering in 6 years due to spikes or surges so I do not really see a need to protect the television with a UPS unit.

Are you in a condo unit or a house? If in a condo, are other people suffering similar problems?

[impulse]

When you say "apple Ipad chargers", were they genuine Apple brand bought from an authorized Apple dealer, or an inexpensive knock-off? In 11 years in China, I went through literally dozens of power supplies that came with Chinese made equipment and replacements that I bought at their local version of Pantip.

But in those same 11 years, I never lost a genuine name brand charger that I had brought from the USA- with one exception. It was rated only 110 V and I didn't notice. My bad on that one.

I've been meaning to bring home a power harmonics analyzer and measure the waveform, but I don't have anything in country to count or measure surges. You've raised my curiosity as well.

Edited December 31, 2011 by impulse

[attrayant]

Yes these are the apple originals, two of which came with the ipad and an extra that I bought in the apple store.

I'm in Don Mueang about 1 km east of the airport. It's not the boonies by any stretch of the imagination. I haven't heard of anyone else (about ten people depending on the day) in the house complaining but they might just be resigned to it and used to going out to the street and picking up a new 100 baht cheapy every month.

It could also be something heavy on the same house circuit creating a spike like a compressor kicking on and off, but I don't know how this house is wired. I have an oscilloscope on the slow boat from the USA and when it gets here next month I'll take a closer look.

[GreenSnapper]

I have crappy power in BKK, goes off every week.

But never lost any device so far. Computer is attached to an UPS, but chargers and other devices are unprotected.

[astral]

The power spikes took out an early CD player back around 1987.

A surge suppression unit is probably a good idea.

[Crossy]

I would nip in to Zeer and get a good quality surge suppressor. The more expensive Belkin units come with a device damage warranty, no idea if you can ever claim on it mind.

[Heimdallr]

Switch to Nokia, less likely to break and much cheaper to replace.

[jybkk]

Switch to Nokia, less likely to break and much cheaper to replace.

Nokia released a tablet already???

[Pib]

Areas of Bangkok frequently have short power loses/switches....that is, the power goes off for about a second (or less) as if they are switching/balancing load around the area. I also expect there is no shortage of voltage spikes/surges especially in the core of the city due to large building air con's kicking on and off, elevators motors kicking in and out, etc....etc...etc....all of these things can create power spikes milli/microseconds in length where the voltage level can actually reach several "times" 220V. Heck, even a lot of simple home appliances like washing machines, microwaves, water heaters, water pumps, etc., can create very healthy voltage spikes. For those devices that don't have descent surge/over voltage protection designed-in, it can be the death of those devices in around one year or in some cases just a few months. A surge protected power strip can help the life of electronic devices, especially for those cheapie electronic devices which may not have any surge protection built-in.

Most surge protector power strips you buy only have surge protection across the Line (the hot wire, the wire with the voltage on it) to Neutral wires in the form of a MOV (metal oxide varistor) which kinda looks like a coin with two wires coming out of it...also looks very similar to some capacitors and be easily misidentified as a capacitor. Anyway, if the voltage spike comes in on the Line wire you get some surge protection as the voltage spike is partially shorted/diverted to the Neutral wire which is hopefully at zero voltage/ground potential. However, if the spike rides "both" the Line and Neutral wires the MOV basically don't see any voltage spike/difference, does not partially divert the voltage spike anywhere; therefore, your device(s) plugged into the power strip can still receive the voltage spike, but on the Line "and" Neutral lines. Spikes coming in on your Line and Neutral lines easily occur with lightning occurring in the area or high powered machinery kicking on and off like large air cons, elevators, etc....and lightning can easily cause the spikes on all three lines since lightning can be into the millions of volts...lighting is just around right unhealthy for electrial devices. And of course if you don't have an surge protecton between the voltage source and electronic device you are plugging in, that device may not have a long life in Thailand

The better 3 wire surge protector power strips have a MOV (i.e., at least 3 MOVs). One MOV across the Line-to-Neutral, one Line-to-Ground, and one Neutral-to-Ground...with this arrangement a voltage spike is always partially diverted. Some of them also have other power spike & noise suppression devices built-in but I won't try to talk about those devices. Unfortunately, unless the surge protector flat-out says on the packaging it is surge protected in this 3 line/3MOV protection method a person won't know how the power strip is designed and is mostly likely designed with just one MOV across the Line-to-Neutral. And if it's a "two wire" surge protector (i.e., no safety ground/3rd wire) the only way the MOV can be installed is from Line to Neutral since there is no third wire/ground wire.

Where I say that the voltage spike is partially diverted, a person needs to know that MOVs (and other similar over voltage devices) are designed to kick-in at a certain voltage level which will usually be in the 400 to 800 volts range on power strips to divert large voltage spikes on 120/220V power lines. For a simple MOV to say kick-in say at 250 volts (approx 10% above normal 220/230V line voltage) would result in a very short life span of that device since small voltage spikes can be quite routine...and if the MOVs permanently shorts from numerous diversions of voltage spikes that baht coin sized MOV device can actually catch on fire...in the better designs a fuse will be wired in series with the MOV to prevent it from continuously shorting and possibly catching on fire.

And just a note, if you think buying some super duper expensive surge protector power strip will protect from voltage spikes generated by lightning storms--WRONG!!! Lightning strikes are normally in the millions of volts range which create voltage spikes that overwhelms all but the most VERY expensive surge protection devices....and I'm not talking some surge protection power strip that might cost 1000 or more baht, but other much more expensive and sophisticated devices. And if the surge protection power strip you are buying comes in packaging showing a lightning storm underway---that is just deceptive advertising in my opinion. Hard to tell if any of those protectors that come with warranties to repair/replace damaged equipment connected to them would ever pay out, if it could be proved it was a voltage spike that caused the plugged-in item to fail....of course this assumes you still have the surge protector packaging/paperwork talking about the warranty and how to submit a claim.

Personally, what I do for surge protection is buy a sturdy looking three-wire power strip for a couple hundred baht that may or may not come with some MOV protection, open it up, remove any MOV that it may have installed, and install three identical MOVs using my cheapie soldering iron. One MOV across the Line to Neutral, one across the Neutral to Ground, and one across the Line to Ground. I use 20mm/190 joules MOVs which adds up to about 570 joules protection when using the rating methods used by surge protection power strip manufacturers. I bought these 20mm/190J MOVs (very close to the size of one-baht coin) locally for 7 (seven) baht each...most cheapie surge protection power strips a person buys provides approx 70 to 210 (or less) joules protection which usually means only "one" 70 to 210 joules MOV is connected across the Line to Neutral lines....and they are only 7 to 10mm MOVs which means they can handle less wattage than larger diameter MOVs. The 20mm size can handle two to three times more power/wattage than the 7 or 10mm sized MOVs (about the size of a 50 stang coin) that normally come in the cheaper power strips. Not suggesting anyone should do what I do; just saying this is what I do.

In closing, when you buy a typical surge protection power strip usually the only thing different from it and a regular power strip is the surge protected power strip has a 7/10mm 5 baht (retail cost) MOV installed across the Line to Neutral lines (and "maybe" a 5 baht torriod coil in series with the Line/Neutral wire for some noise suppression), but in many cases the hype on the surge protected power strip packaging is trying to convince you there is much more circuity in the strip to protect your plugged-in devices from power surges. IMHO, for basic, low cost surge protection just try to fine a power strip that has surge protection/MOVs across all "three" lines/wires, repeat, all three lines. However, but, if you live somewhere where you only have 2 wire outlets/sockets, then buying a 3 MOV/3 lines surge protected power strip is overkill since your 2 outlet wall sockets cause that 3 line protector to only be protected across the Line to Neutral since the Ground wire is not being used/not conected....but it's definitely bettter than having no surge protection. And once again, when it comes to lightning, no surge protected power strip can deal with millions of volts from a nearby lighting strike so keep that in mind when looking at the packaging hype.

Cheers and Happy New Year.

[ETatBKK]

thanks for good info PIB ! the voltage spike you mentioned, does it commonly refer to 'browning' ?

I did disassemble some power strips couple of time for cleaning up broke pieces inside. OMG, how prelimitive they are ! at the point of purchase, how do I know what MOV configuration inside ?

[astral]

The better 3 wire surge protector power strips have a MOV (i.e., at least 3 MOVs). One MOV across the Line-to-Neutral, one Line-to-Ground, and one Neutral-to-Ground...with this arrangement a voltage spike is always partially diverted.

Sorry, where do you live that has a Ground connection in Thailand?

Very rare IMHE

[Pib]

thanks for good info PIB ! the voltage spike you mentioned, does it commonly refer to 'browning' ?

I did disassemble some power strips couple of time for cleaning up broke pieces inside. OMG, how prelimitive they are ! at the point of purchase, how do I know what MOV configuration inside ?

No, a voltage "spike" is when there is a very brief (i.e., usually just milliseconds) rise in voltage level...say it rises/spikes form 220V to 500V (or easily higher) for a blink of an eye. Have you even been shocked?...if you have, for that split second you were in contact with voltage might be a way of explaining a voltage spike in that you are normally at "zero" volts but for a split second you touched that live wire the voltage touching your body spiked to 220 volts...you pulled you finger away quickly as you were saying Oh Sh%t!!! Or, maybe another analogy is on one of those days when the stock and currency trading charts are spiking up and down....like a stock/currency upward spike that only lasts a minute on a rumor out of the whole trading day....when looking at the whole trading day chart you might not even see the spike unless you narrow the chart period down to one hour. Or even another analogy, you are in your car running away from the police down a l....o.....n.....g road but the police throw out a "spike strip" to puncture your tires....the road was miles long but those skiny & tall spikes only covering a few inches of the road brought your car to a halt and off to jail you went.

Voltage spikes are usually caused by a high powered devices turning on-an -off; but heck, even a faulty/failing light switch can sometimes cause very significant voltage spikes. I had a dirty/failing light switch which was only used to turn on the outdoor light above my home's front door; whenever I was using the DVD and turned on the light switch it would cause my DVD to mess up for a second...the circuit feeding the light switch was on the same line as my DVD, TV, cable TV box, etc. I replaced the light switch and the problem went away. Now this example of my light switch causing a spike is an example of a voltage spike that probably lasted around 50 milliseconds as the switch was being flipped and the duration of this spike was long and high enough to actually cause a visual/audible indication on a device; but most voltage spikes are probably much shorter than 50ms...you will probably never notice anything until the day that "one" spike or "repeated spikes over a time period" finally killed your electronic device...kinda like getting hit in the head over and over...while the first hit might not hurt or hurts just a little...getting hit over and over will eventually kill (unless you are hard headed like me).

But a browning or a brown-out is when the voltage level drops significantly below from 220V, say 150V, 90V, 50V, etc) and stays there for an extended period of seconds, minutes, or hours. For devices designed to work between 100V to 220V (i.e., 120V or 220V circuits) brownouts generally shouldn't affect them. But if a device is rated/spec'ed to only work on 220V +/-10% then a brownout can damage the device, especially the power supplies/adapters of the device, as the device's power supply basically must work harder and hotter to maintain a constant voltage out to feed all the circuits in the device....and in some cases it may not provide enough voltage out to the circuits running off the power supply and the ICs, transistors, etc., in the device just kill themselves/go to heaven/say bye-bye cruel world.

When I notice a brownout is occurring I generally cut off my circuit breakers and/or turn-off/unplug the devices I know can't handle a AC voltage level below a certain level. If you can't get to the circuit breaker box, it's best to "unplug" the item as sometimes just turning off an item is really just putting it in Standby mode where it's still drawing a little power and is still exposed to the input line voltage. Heck, I even wired in a little analog 0-300 volts meter (cost like 50 baht) to the input of my homes main circuit breaker box so I could actually see what the voltage level is when a brownout occurs (usually a couple times per year in my part of Bangkok). As I watch the that analog meter I have seen voltage slowly vary from 20 to 200V, with most of the variations occurring in the 50 to 100V range....once the brownout is over the voltage is back to a steady 220V (actually 225V at my home according to my more expensive digital multimeters).

You are right...when opening up a power strip they are pretty simple inside. And if you just paid a few extra hundred baht for a low cost power, surge protected power strip what you are probably going to find inside is "one each" 10mm in diameter MOV inside wired across the Line to Neutral wires. Here's a picture of some MOVs which are about the size of a one-baht coin with two leads coming out.

[Pib]

The better 3 wire surge protector power strips have a MOV (i.e., at least 3 MOVs). One MOV across the Line-to-Neutral, one Line-to-Ground, and one Neutral-to-Ground...with this arrangement a voltage spike is always partially diverted.

Sorry, where do you live that has a Ground connection in Thailand?

Very rare IMHE

Bangkok. In my approx 750 house moobaan here in western Bangkok all the houses were built with 3 wires/3d wire earth ground. Fortunately the same developer has been building all the houses in the moobaan for the last 20 years or so and the developer apparently knew the safety advantage of using 3 wire setup.

But you are right that most locations in Thailand, including Bangkok, were built/still have only 2 wire setups which is still common for most 3d world nations...and Thailand still is a 3d world nation....OK, OK, developing nation maybe sounds better. But with that being said, I would use the description of the "great majority" of buildings/homes in Thailand (say 80%?) have two wire setups but the minority that have 3 wire setups is growing everyday with new construction.

[ETatBKK]

thanks Pib, a good refresh on voltage spike and browning. from a country with very stable electricity supply, this is a discussion for many years.

with a robust UPS, we could avoid the damage from both spikes and browing ( except lightning spike ). yet I doubt the effectiveness of those 'surge protected' power bar, in case of power surge. on the other hand, I can't afford an UPS per appliance.

browning is simply invisible and no plug-and-play solution, isn't it ?

[Pib]

thanks Pib, a good refresh on voltage spike and browning. from a country with very stable electricity supply, this is a discussion for many years.

with a robust UPS, we could avoid the damage from both spikes and browing ( except lightning spike ). yet I doubt the effectiveness of those 'surge protected' power bar, in case of power surge. on the other hand, I can't afford an UPS per appliance.

browning is simply invisible and no plug-and-play solution, isn't it ?

Browning can be a real problem as my experience with occasional brown-outs here in my moobaan in western Bangkok the voltage drop is not minor like dropping to 180-200V and staying relatively steady there, but dropping even as low as 20V and then slowly varying over a few minutes up close to 200V and then sink back down toward 20V. From what I've been told this is usually caused by a major line fuse/breaker tripping somewhere; once that fuse/breaker is fixed by the electric company the voltage pops right back to 220V. During these types of brownout if you have a incandescent light you can watch it go from almost dark/off to almost normal brightness over a few minutes...sometimes this variation has occurred over approx 15 seconds...going from real dim to bright...then going back to dim over that 15 seconds. An low wattage incadenscent light can sometimes be a easy and cheap way to see if a brownout is underway assuming a person can remember the normal brightest at 220V...but it wouldn't really be a good indicator if the brownout is say only down to 180V and steadywhich might not be really noticeable on an incadenscent light...a person really needs a voltmeter to measure the actual voltage....kinda like how I hooked buy that 50 baht analog AC panel meter to the input side of my main circuirt breaker box inside the house.

But I lived at other locatons in Thailand in years past were the typical brownout was frequent, usually occurred in the early night with all the folks coming home from work/school and tuning on their devices & lights, and the voltage would drop down to a pretty steady 160-200V range and stay that way until late at night.

Even a UPS can't really help with major brownouts after the UPS batteries use up their charge. And you are right, a UPS per appliance would be really expensive.

About the only low cost and easy thing you can do is to use surge protected power strips to help with power spikes and flat out disconnecting device unplugging during noticed line voltage problems/lightning storms/etc. And whenever possible I would only buy devices that are rated to automatically work on 120V or 220V since the power supplies are designed to handle this voltage range; although, these devices would rather be dealing with either 120V or 220V versus a some varying voltage between 120V to 220V like occurs during brown-outs on 220V lines. In closing, I think power spikes are much more common and dangerous to devices that brownouts, especially for folks living in high-rises where there is a lot of high powered equipment (i.e., air cons, elevators, pumps, etc) always switching on and off...creating voltage spikes.

[haveaniceday]

I would nip in to Zeer and get a good quality surge suppressor. The more expensive Belkin units come with a device damage warranty, no idea if you can ever claim on it mind.

The Australian office pays out on claims with minimal of fuss. Butt would they if it is plugged into a non earthed outlet???? Doubt it somehow.

[KoreaElte]

The better 3 wire surge protector power strips have a MOV (i.e., at least 3 MOVs). One MOV across the Line-to-Neutral, one Line-to-Ground, and one Neutral-to-Ground...with this arrangement a voltage spike is always partially diverted.

Sorry, where do you live that has a Ground connection in Thailand?

Very rare IMHE

Bangkok. In my approx 750 house moobaan here in western Bangkok all the houses were built with 3 wires/3d wire earth ground. Fortunately the same developer has been building all the houses in the moobaan for the last 20 years or so and the developer apparently knew the safety advantage of using 3 wire setup.

But you are right that most locations in Thailand, including Bangkok, were built/still have only 2 wire setups which is still common for most 3d world nations...and Thailand still is a 3d world nation....OK, OK, developing nation maybe sounds better. But with that being said, I would use the description of the "great majority" of buildings/homes in Thailand (say 80%?) have two wire setups but the minority that have 3 wire setups is growing everyday with new construction.

I envy you. My condo building is clearly not earthed. My Espresso machine used to give me mild shocks. Siemens service came and said "your power points aren't earthed, this appliance needs to be earthed or you have no warranty / we can't help you."

Lo and behold, the user manual for most of my high-end devices state that "this device must be earthed".

I called an electrician who claimed to know what he is doing to re-wire the condo and earth my sockets / install the correct sockets to start with. After he was done, I still had issues. Called another electrician and found that the first guy had merely installed 3 wire power points, but found nothing to connect earth to.........

As for the OP's question, I had issues all the time. Chargers for mobile devices blow up, weekly "3 second blackouts", and my home entertainment system was buzzing when it was switched off. I remedied most of that by putting the higher end stuff behind APC UPS.

I started off with cheaper Thai brands like Leonics, all of them died within a few months.

With the APC units I get the benefit of being able to graph my grid power. They record what comes in and log it every x seconds. To my surprise, my power downtown BKK is actually very stable. A very stable ~230 Volts comign in. The graph looks much cleaner than what I used to see in the US where during peak times you get anything between 100 and 120V, huge fluctuations.

When it spikes here, it spikes huge. The APC record a spike event every few days here plus the weekly "3 second outage"....

Does anyone know a reliable electrician who could help ground the power outlets in my condo ?