New To Koi Carp

[spiv1947]

hi everybody,my name bob bennett 65 yrs young ex brit been in khon kaen 5 yrs looking for hobbys got a few but fancy koi carp was a builder all my working life around manchester built 3 houses a very large fishing tackle /bait shop outbuildings etc etc since i been here.Ive got an outbuilding 24ft by 12ft walls 9inch thick 6inch concrete floor propose to turn this into an in door fish tank first thing i am going to do is put down a further 6 inch concrete floor plenty of re bar and ive had brought from uk sika water proof addative i worked for sika as a contracts manage many many years ago so no prob water proof wise.The proposed tank approx 24 by 9 ft i will put a solid water proof concrete wall across gable end to gable end 4 ft high plenty re bar. Any advice suggestions up to now would be very very much appreciated i intend doing it correctly and you guys have done it before me so any help is fine by me.I will put a 2 inch drain stop tap in just in case i ever have to empty the tank .Ive got a camera/cam corder so intend to post progress snap shots .In maybe a month the hard bit starts pumps filters etc etc then i WILL need your advice then the fish even more advice will be asked for .hope to get some good inside info of you gents many thanks in advance yours bob bennett

[daoyai]

You will need some natural sunlight for the fish to produce vit. D. so inside may pose problems, for filteration, google pond biofilters, you can build your own cheap and easy.

[Crossy]

OP edited, please don't post in large or non standard fonts, makes things difficult to read.

Let's try this in Pets, where some very fishy people hang out.

[KNJ]

go to koikichi dot com.

Easy to make lots of mistakes, better to research and get it right first time, this is a good website

[Thailaw]

Don't do a thing on the tank until you have the flitration system totally planned and designed. The tank and the filtration system work together and the flow of water from one into the other needs to be adequate and properly located for the purpose. A pipe (maybe several) from the middle/bottom of the tank is also desireable, because most debris will collect on the bottom of the pond/tank. Once you have the tank finished (and filled with water and fish) it will be too late.

I have an in-ground koi pond, about 8,000 liters, and my biggest problem is inadequate flow of water from the pond to the filter box, which I had built after the pond was finished. I would now add several more pipes for water to flow from the pond into the filter box if I could, but it is difficult now. The best filters are gravity fed, biological filters (divided into chambers, first with brushes, then ceramic beads/charcoal (with a layer of fabric mesh over the beads), and then oyster shells, at the same level as the pond/tank. One pump in the filter box returns the water to the pond/tank and gravity flows the water into the filter box.

[spiv1947]

hi all.Thanks for your interest and most valuable advice im now beginning to realise how complicated looking after koi carp is building the pond no prob BUT all else seems to be as i have plenty of time to do the project i reckon i will get there in the end ,please gents any ideas thoughts are welcome im a great believer in asking experts for advice .ps please excuse my spelling grammer etc left school at 14 teen and my computer expertise leaves a hell of a lot to be desired .yours with respect bob bennett

[pgangell]

Hi Bob, Like you I am spending some time trying to establish a pond for Koi. When I built the house 3 years ago the landscaper put in a 20 cubic meters (20,000 liters) inground pond out doors with a inground concrete filter tank conected under ground by a 4 inch pipe. Water is drawn from the pond though the filter by a submursed pump in the filter tank, The water is then pumped over a waterfall back into the pond. I placed about 20 Koi in the pond and, while the water became dirty, I did not loose any fish over 3 years. I have however had several problems which I am working through. I have found that there are no easy answers - it's all trial and error and depends very much on your environment. My first problem was leakage - due to excessive cleaning of the concrete walls they became pourous and I was loosing a lot of water. I found a product from Perth, Australia called PondTite (there is a Thai agent) which is a rubber membraine that you paint onto the surface of the pond. The pond is now completely water tight. I put the fish back into the pond and they were fine until my wife purchased several small Koi from Chutuchuck market which, one by one, curled up there heals. Then my original 12 inch plus fish started to die as well. I took samples of water and dead fish to the local fisheries dept and they said that the water was fine but the fish had contracted worms (presumably from the Chutuchuck fish). Out of 30 fish (including the new ones) I have 5 remaining! I have also not really resolved my filtration issues as I get a build up of algee within about 3 weeks of filling the pond. I took a member's advice and constructed a filter box using a Big C plastic storage box which I have placed in the filter tank. The box has holes in the top and along one side at the bottom. It contains filter material recommended by other members. Water is then drawn through the box from the top to the bottom by the submersed pump. I think that I need a stronger pump to draw more water through the box which will be the next thing to try.

I live in Phetchabun and if you wish to discuss this some more my email is [email protected]

[Thailaw]

Hi Bob, Like you I am spending some time trying to establish a pond for Koi. When I built the house 3 years ago the landscaper put in a 20 cubic meters (20,000 liters) inground pond out doors with a inground concrete filter tank conected under ground by a 4 inch pipe. Water is drawn from the pond though the filter by a submursed pump in the filter tank, The water is then pumped over a waterfall back into the pond. I placed about 20 Koi in the pond and, while the water became dirty, I did not loose any fish over 3 years. I have however had several problems which I am working through. I have found that there are no easy answers - it's all trial and error and depends very much on your environment. My first problem was leakage - due to excessive cleaning of the concrete walls they became pourous and I was loosing a lot of water. I found a product from Perth, Australia called PondTite (there is a Thai agent) which is a rubber membraine that you paint onto the surface of the pond. The pond is now completely water tight. I put the fish back into the pond and they were fine until my wife purchased several small Koi from Chutuchuck market which, one by one, curled up there heals. Then my original 12 inch plus fish started to die as well. I took samples of water and dead fish to the local fisheries dept and they said that the water was fine but the fish had contracted worms (presumably from the Chutuchuck fish). Out of 30 fish (including the new ones) I have 5 remaining! I have also not really resolved my filtration issues as I get a build up of algee within about 3 weeks of filling the pond. I took a member's advice and constructed a filter box using a Big C plastic storage box which I have placed in the filter tank. The box has holes in the top and along one side at the bottom. It contains filter material recommended by other members. Water is then drawn through the box from the top to the bottom by the submersed pump. I think that I need a stronger pump to draw more water through the box which will be the next thing to try.

I live in Phetchabun and if you wish to discuss this some more my email is [email protected]

Your pond and filtration system sounds very much like mine, only bigger. Mine is only about 8,000 liters. I had the inside of the pond tiled when it was built and I have never had a water leakage problem. The only water loss is through evaportation, which is minimal. I think you need to install a UV filter, probably behind your waterfall (that is where mine is), and you should not have an algae problem. The 4 inch pipe is a great idea. My pipe connecting the pond to the filter box is only 1.5", which is way too small. I use the pipe intended to flow water back into the pond to flow water out from the pond to the filter box, and that works, but barely. The water fall feature is used to flow water back into the pond. With gravity feed, which is the best way, the inflow pipe (or pipes -- several are far better) into the filter box must be much larger than the outflow pipe back into the pond which is pump forced.

Adding new fish can be a problem, where ever you get them. Buying from reputable sellers is some protection, but not always enough. I find that if the fish are sold in a bag with yellowish water (indicates an anti-bacterial/fungus additive in the water), the risk of bacteria, fungus and worms is reduced. I also never put the water that the fish come into my pond. That has made a big difference. I had one fish get a fungus/bacteria on the back of its head a few months ago. I got a broad spectrum fungicide and added it to the water in the pond and removed the charcoal from the filter. The fish was better in about 1 week, although 2 fancy koi died, perhaps from the medicine, not sure. It would have been better to remove and isolate the sick fish, but in almost 45 minutes of trying, I could not catch it. I have about 21 fish in the pond now, the biggest are about 15" long, so I am full up, which helps to avoid the problem of adding fish. A mature pond will stabilize. Except for the 1 sick fish, my pond has been trouble free for at least 3 years.

[Thailaw]

I did not mean to suggest in my last post that that a single 4" pipe flowing from the pond into the fllter box is the "best" or even a "good" approach/design. I think it is neither of those, but it is certainly better than mine. The best approach/design would, I think, be 3 or four 2 to 2.5" pipes placed equi-distant around the outside wall of the pond about 4" from the bottom and one 3" pipe in the center of the floor of the pond. All of the pipes would connect onto the filter box on the incoming wall of the filter box. Ideally, the floor of the pond would slope downward toward the pipe in the middle of the floor. There would be 1 or two 2" pipes from the filter box to eturn the water from the filter box to the pond. A water fall/feature should also be consider to provide proper aeration. But that is (or should be) separate from the filtration system, although the water for the water fall may come directly from the filter box.

The OP said above "im now beginning to realise how complicated looking after koi carp is". This is completely wrong. Looking after koi is extemely easy IF the pond/tank and filter system is properly designed and built. There is a direct inverse relationsgip between the time, effort and cost of propely designing and building a koi pond and filter system and the time effort and cost of maintaining it and looking after the fish. Do the hard work up front, now, and the work and cost later will be reduced and the enjoyment increased.

[pgangell]

I agree with all you have said and am grateful for your contributions. Unfortunately, I was relying on the landscaper to design and contruct my pond as I had no idea as to what was involved. It's only now, after reading contributions from the likes of yourself that I am beginning to understand what is required. I am taking several steps to rectify the deficiencies. I have a much bigger pump and will instal this to allow more water to be pumped through the filter. In addition I may add an above ground filter, similar to what you have described, in between the current filter tank and the waterfall. I am also sectioning off an area in the pond as a fish free area in which I will grow some plants - water lillies etc. We did try to grow some plant but the Koi ate them. I did purchase a Klever Kleena from Australia to get the dirt off the bottom and sides of the pond. This automatically cleans the whole pond but does nothing about the particals in the water itself. It works ok but I think a simple pool vacuum cleaner would suffice. I am trying to attach some thumb nails to this reply but can't find the option?

[Thailaw]

I agree with all you have said and am grateful for your contributions. Unfortunately, I was relying on the landscaper to design and contruct my pond as I had no idea as to what was involved. It's only now, after reading contributions from the likes of yourself that I am beginning to understand what is required. I am taking several steps to rectify the deficiencies. I have a much bigger pump and will instal this to allow more water to be pumped through the filter. In addition I may add an above ground filter, similar to what you have described, in between the current filter tank and the waterfall. I am also sectioning off an area in the pond as a fish free area in which I will grow some plants - water lillies etc. We did try to grow some plant but the Koi ate them. I did purchase a Klever Kleena from Australia to get the dirt off the bottom and sides of the pond. This automatically cleans the whole pond but does nothing about the particals in the water itself. It works ok but I think a simple pool vacuum cleaner would suffice. I am trying to attach some thumb nails to this reply but can't find the option?

I have read that the pump should be sized to flow the water in the pond through the filter 3 times in one day. My pump is 1200 liters per hour, so with an 8,000 litre pond, it is more than large enough to do that. My problem is flow into the filter box, the pump runs the filer box dry continuously. I, and I assume that you also, run the pump continuously. With a 4" pipe you should have no problem with water flow into the flter box, even with a bigger pump. If the present filter box is adequate, that should be enough. A prpoerly designed filer has 4 chambers (or multiples of 4 if the box is larger), where the walls separating the chambers start above the floor or below the top (alternating above and below), so that the water will flow over and under the walls from chamber to chamber before reaching the last chamber where it is pumper back into the pond. The pump is in the last chamber. As I noted, each chamber is filled with different filtering materials -- first large brushes, then ceramic beads and charcoal, and last large bags of oyster shells. This is a well know design, and all fish supply stores carry the mentioned materials.

One thought, does the cover over the 4" pipe to keep the fish out restrict the flow of water? If so, you migh need to make some adjustment there to allow more water through. The water in my pond is as clear as the swimming pool, but there are small particles floating in the water if you look carefully. I think they are black algae, which I have read is beneficial to the pond. When the pond water getsI murky, which happend during the rainy season, I put some of that white fluff filter material behind a piece of green plastic mesh and anchor it to the back of the water fall, so that the water flows through it before returning into the pond. That always solves the problem.

I think plants are a real plus, both asthetically and filtration wise, to get rid of the nitrogen, which the filter produces from the nitrites in the water. The koi will eat the plants that float in the water, but the ones that grow upward should be less of a problem. I would not separate the plants from the fish, I would just add plants periodically if necessary.

My point to the OP was to do the planning and design now, as it will be much easier and less expensive. You can add pipes and pumps later on, but a pump will probably cost B500 per month in electricity to run and will require wires running down and into the pond. This cost can be avoided with proper planning and adequate water flow designed into the system. My pond has no visible pipes or wires and I want to keep it that way -- the asthetics are important to me. I doubt that the OP cares about the appearance if he is planning an above ground cement box, but he will have pipes and wires running everywhere and a noticeable electric bill unless he does some better planning now. A 25' x 9' x 4' cement box does not a fish tank make. Frankly, unless this is a commercial endeavour, I really don't see why anyone would plan to build a fish tank above ground in an out building, where you cannot sit and enjoy watching the fish. To me, that is the reason I built the pond, and my kids really enjoy going out and feeding the fish and watching them for 30 minutes each morning. It is a very pleasant place to sit and have the moring coffee. But, to each his own, and the OP was not asking for advice on asthetics.

I look forward to seeing some pictures of your pond.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Thailaw

[pgangell]

My filter tank has three sections. The wall between the first and second section comes up half way from the bottom so that the water is forced over the top half thereby trapping leaves and heavy material. The wall between the second and third section starts at the top but has a 30cm gap at the bottom. I have pushed a plastic storage box up against the wall with holes in the top and holes in the side against the gap and have tried to seal around the box so that the water is forced in through the holes at the top and out into the third section through the holes in the bottom. In the box from bottom to top is a layer of coarse material not unlike hair curlers covering the holes at the bottom, then a layer of medium foam rubber material, then about 3 inch of caramic stones, then another layer of medium foam rubber and on top a layer of coarse foam rubber. These are recommendation from several members who have been experimenting with Koi pond filters. This seems to be working as the water in the last section is relatively clean before it is drawn out by the pump and sent over the waterfall back into the pond. As I said previously, I think it needs a bigger pump and I will apply your figures to determine if my spare pump is big enough. My photos exceed 2mb so if you want to see them could you send your emailaddress to the address I gave in a previous post. The one I have attached is of the original surface prior to applying the rubber solution.

We, like you enjoy the pond and hope that all our troubles are behind us. To ensure the parisites are dead we intend to drain the pond once more and dry it out. There are very few (about 5) fish left in the pond so I will put them into a tub for the duration. This is the advice of the fisheries dept here.

Edited January 10, 2012 by pgangell

[worgeordie]

Hi spiv1947, When I built my pond here many years ago,

I imported some fibre stuff (cannot remember name now)

but you mix it with the rendering and prevents the cement

from cracking and increases the strength .

When the cement was dry I painted it with a couple of coats

of special paint from JOTUN ,it comes in lots of colours and

gave the pond a good finish also gives extra waterproofing.

Good luck with the project regards Worgeordie