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[connda]

It’s interesting how Thais conduct themselves around strangers. I would think that “common” courtesies would be, well, common in the Land of Smiles. But, in practice, that doesn’t seem to be the case. In my Western up-bringing I was taught that common courtesy was a “social lubricant.” That’s sort of a funny way to put it, but in the Western culture I grew up in, small courtesies keep most people from turning ugly and aggressive. If you bump into someone, you say, “Excuse me.” If you need to break through a queue, you make eye contact with the people in the queue and ask to get through. Hold a door open for someone, and many times you get smiles. I like that about my Western culture.

But here in Thailand – wow! Courtesy seems to be reserved for people you know, people who are family, or are puyai. For example, I was going into the mall the other day, and a woman was exiting the door. Instead of opening the door wide so we could both pass, she opened it just barely (and I mean just barely) wide enough to allow her to squeeze through, and then passed me by without the slightest eye contact – I didn’t exist. I knew that she knew that I was there, but by god she wasn’t going to open that door wider than to get her own slinky, skinny Thai body through. Then yesterday, I was standing in line at Big C. I was sandwiched between the counter to the front of me and a wall separating the registers behind me – barely wide enough for two people to pass. As I was standing waiting for some Thai fellow to check out I felt a hand, then an arm, and then a shoulder push between me and the wall. Out of the corner of my eye there is some middle-aged Thai women attempting to push (and I mean push) her way past me. I’m a heck of a lot larger than she was, so I just centered my weight and let her push. She didn’t say a word, just pushed harder – so I gave way, looked her directly in the eyes on her way by, I smiled a great big cheesy smile, and said, [thai script removed] (for those of you who don’t read Thai, I said a very polite “excuse me”, although that was not what I was thinking. Obviously the dude in front of me was her husband or boyfriend, and she couldn’t break eye contact with me fast enough, and hubby wouldn’t look at me either. I just kept a big, honking grin on my face and waited for them to depart whilst I just smiled on – happy farang.

So what is it with this culture? Under so many circumstances Thais are very polite to the point of almost being deferential. But when they make everyone around them disappear in their own minds, and you cease to exist in their minds, when they make you into a non-existing stranger, then the real rudeness surfaces its ugly head. And I also think it’s one of the uglier sides of Thai culture. And I’ve seen it a lot, but I wish I knew more about it’s cultural and societal origins, and they “whys” – why act rude to the point of being almost aggressive, but without acknowledging that person you just shoved even exists.

But what the heck, I was walking down the sidewalk tonight and a group of about 10 Western tourists was coming down the sidewalk the other way. Like most Thai sidewalks, this one was an obstacle course of telephone booths, streets signs, trees, and mail boxes. At the narrowest point between a mail box and a wall, people could only get through single file. I stopped at the mail box and let the group pass. I heard a number of “thank you’s”, and a “cheers mate” as they passed. Western courtesy!!! And people who can appreciate it. Such a little gesture that made everyone happy and smiling – it made me feel good. I may never want to move back to my Western country, but Western-style courtesy is something I do miss, and I appreciate when I see it.

Edited January 5, 2012 by sbk
english only as per forum rules, please

[Jdietz]

Ah so you met with the 'bubble of self-importance' as I've heard it excellently described.

[whybother]

There's no such thing.

[arthurwait]

It happens.

On a particularly tiring day on the sky train at Siam people all tried to barge through me and the other people trying to get off I had enough and grabbed the guy trying to barge through me by his shirt and took him with me until I reached the escalators.

I hope he waits in place for his turn next time.

[KeyserSoze01]

In my Western up-bringing I was taught that common courtesy was a “social lubricant.”

Haven't traveled much, have you. You aren't in Kansas anymore Dorothy.

[HardenedSoul]

Wondered how long it would take before the first sarcastic comment. The guy's just posting an observation <deleted>.

[sotsira]

This is the way it is here and most of Asia for that matter so if your planning to stay here, then

it's a matter of putting up with it.

I also believe that some Thai's do it to foreigners more so than their own.

[zzaa09]

In my Western up-bringing I was taught that common courtesy was a “social lubricant.”

Haven't traveled much' date=' have you. You aren't in Kansas anymore Dorothy.

[/quote']

The comparatives and superatives should be expected by those whom haven't learned to connect with interacting cultures. It's them that should be inspired by the ever-encompassing Western character and all it's high slendor.

That being said, I can understand how one could misinterpret a "courtesy calling" as it applies to Thais. Look deeper past the surface...

[connda]

"Posted 2 minutes ago

Quote

In my Western up-bringing I was taught that common courtesy was a “social lubricant.”

Haven't traveled much, have you. You aren't in Kansas anymore Dorothy."

_________________________________________________________________________

Actual Spy vs. Spy dude, I have traveled extensively over a period of 50 years, with a lot to that travel in Asian countries. And I've lived here in the LoS for about 5 years. This is home, so I try to understand the idiosyncrasies and difference in the culture that are so unlike most "farang" cultures.

So instead of dismissing the thread with some wore-out, over-used, unoriginal, off-hand reference to the Wizard of Oz - how about adding your thoughts about this particular cultural difference between Thais culture and other cultures. What are your thoughts and your own experiences both positive and negative? Why do you think Thais act this way? Using your own analogy, I'm more interested in what happening "behind the curtain" in a cultural sense.

Edited January 4, 2012 by connda

[theblether]

"Posted 2 minutes ago

Quote

In my Western up-bringing I was taught that common courtesy was a “social lubricant.”

Haven't traveled much, have you. You aren't in Kansas anymore Dorothy."

_________________________________________________________________________

Actual Spy vs. Spy dude, I have traveled extensively over a period of 50 years, with a lot to that travel in Asian countries. And I've lived here in the LoS for about 5 years. This is home, so I try to understand the idiosyncrasies and difference in the culture that are so unlike most "farang" cultures.

So instead of dismissing the thread with some wore-out, over-used, unoriginal, off-hand reference to the Wizard of Oz - how about adding your thoughts about this particular cultural difference between Thais culture and other cultures. What are your thoughts and your own experiences both positive and negative? Why do you think Thais act this way? Using your own analogy, I'm more interested in what happening "behind the curtain" in a cultural sense.

You should try living China, the concept of queueing is alien to them, and I was 9 inches from a fist fight between 6 Chinese guys in a lift cos some of them barged in. The majority of problems I have had with Thais in regards to obnoxious and rude behaviour is when they have a drink in them.

At that point they can be quite dangerous/

Edited January 4, 2012 by theblether

[7by7]

It happens.

On a particularly tiring day on the sky train at Siam people all tried to barge through me and the other people trying to get off I had enough and grabbed the guy trying to barge through me by his shirt and took him with me until I reached the escalators.

I hope he waits in place for his turn next time.

Same thing happens all the time on the London Underground; but only try that response there if you like hospital food!

[HardenedSoul]

It happens.

On a particularly tiring day on the sky train at Siam people all tried to barge through me and the other people trying to get off I had enough and grabbed the guy trying to barge through me by his shirt and took him with me until I reached the escalators.

I hope he waits in place for his turn next time.

Same thing happens all the time on the London Underground; but only try that response there if you like hospital food!

Yeah! Fer real

[arthurwait]

[wayno0007]

ive had doors pushed shut on me many times in grimsby uk its not culture but the individual i find

[Ulysses G.]

Their manners are just different from ours. It is not that they do not have any. Most Thai people are are a lot more polite than most Westerners that I see here.

[josephinebloggs]

There is no place for courtesy in the third/developing world, there are much more important things to think about.

[Tonto21]

Good topic ‘connda’, interesting, and I agree with your observations. Why so many replies, (so far) want to tell you you’re wrong or, try and reply with one line put downs. Guy’s if you don’t agree with what the OP say’s, fine, tell everyone why.

I don’t think Thai’s set out to be rude; (as we westerners see it) they work within a different frame of politeness. I have to say having been here 6 years now I also tend to think being polite in Thai culture is reserved for family, friends, people who may have an impact on their lives, good or bad and I’m sorry to say but I’ve learnt to be on my guard with chatty, over friendly Thai…..Sad but true. I also have found the level of civility go’s up the smarter I’m dressed; smart shirt, tie and so on…………….Same place, different day if I go in looking like ‘ben gun’ the attitude is very different.

I think politeness comes from having empathy, and we all know Thais have gallons of this, just watch an ambulance try and get though traffic.

Empathy and in turn manors, I think are instilled at a young age……A bit like the ‘action and conscience’ thing.

I’m not knocking the Thais, nor do I think the OP is…….Just raising an interesting topic. This is one of those clashes of culture things and I’m very aware of it, but it still gets my goat sometimes.

[kerryk]

There is a thread running now about guys spraying artificial snow on people during Christmas in an attempt to turn it into Songkran. These are Farang guys of course. I find more courtesy problems with Farang than Thais. I think it is due mostly to drink or improper upbringing.

I saw two young European men peeing off the back of a Song-tau last year and I was appalled. Yesterday while I was eating lunch a Western man blew his nose on the street without the help of a tissue; sickening. I also find some white people don't bath frequently enough or wear polyester football shirts which hold odors and I find this very discourteous.

I still remember the sickening odor of people in heavy woolens riding the subway as a child when I was first exposed to British people. I would assume it is better now as I have been told that Brits bath more now than they did 40 years ago.

[Tonto21]

There is a thread running now about guys spraying artificial snow on people during Christmas in an attempt to turn it into Songkran. These are Farang guys of course. I find more courtesy problems with Farang than Thais. I think it is due mostly to drink or improper upbringing.

I saw two young European men peeing off the back of a Song-tau last year and I was appalled. Yesterday while I was eating lunch a Western man blew his nose on the street without the help of a tissue; sickening. I also find some white people don't bath frequently enough or wear polyester football shirts which hold odors and I find this very discourteous.

I still remember the sickening odor of people in heavy woolens riding the subway as a child when I was first exposed to British people. I would assume it is better now as I have been told that Brits bath more now than they did 40 years ago.

You poor thing, it must have been awful for you!

How do you cope? Ranting about Brits must be a great comfort to you.

Next!

[wamberal]

There is no such thing as "common courtesy" - there is certainly no world-wide consensus on interpersonal behaviours.

I think it is sensible to accept that other cultures have different standards. For example, when I lived in Hong Kong, it was explained to me that there is no simple phrase for "sorry" in Cantonese, as in "sorry" for pushing past you, or interrupting you, or sneezing all over you. Sure enough, I started to notice that the locals actually said "sorry" in English, not only to me, but also to each other.

The way your mummy taught you to behave is different to the way my mummy taught me to behave. So my idea of "common courtesy" might have some similarities to you, but also some differences. Since there are billions of mummies in the world, I think we can assume that courtesy is similarly variegated, and respond accordingly - that is, with calm indifference to the behaviour of others.

[kerryk]

There is a thread running now about guys spraying artificial snow on people during Christmas in an attempt to turn it into Songkran. These are Farang guys of course. I find more courtesy problems with Farang than Thais. I think it is due mostly to drink or improper upbringing.

I saw two young European men peeing off the back of a Song-tau last year and I was appalled. Yesterday while I was eating lunch a Western man blew his nose on the street without the help of a tissue; sickening. I also find some white people don't bath frequently enough or wear polyester football shirts which hold odors and I find this very discourteous.

I still remember the sickening odor of people in heavy woolens riding the subway as a child when I was first exposed to British people. I would assume it is better now as I have been told that Brits bath more now than they did 40 years ago.

You poor thing, it must have been awful for you!

How do you cope? Ranting about Brits must be a great comfort to you.

Next!

The point was made that Thais are discourteous. I don't find that to be the case. I also think being smelly in public is discourteous especially on public transportation. Would I rather queue up next to a smelly person or have a clean person cut in front of me. Frankly I would take the clean smelling person. As a child in Canada I did not meet any bad smelling people until I was exposed to British people on the subway. I think that is calling a spade a spade. Maybe it was hygiene or perhaps bad dry cleaning. Now in Thailand I don't find Thai people smelly in bars but I do run into this in British pubs and I find it discourteous. It's not just me. I know many British people who find it discourteous too. This thread is about discourtesy. As I said I find Farangs more discourteous than Thai people. I think that is on topic.

[yogi100]

In my Western up-bringing I was taught that common courtesy was a “social lubricant.”

Haven't traveled much' date=' have you. You aren't in Kansas anymore Dorothy.

[/quote']

Indeed he's not as you have so observantly noticed. He is commenting on an aspect of Thai behaviour than many of us find to be quite disappointing when we initially become exposed to it. Over the years London, where I live has been the destination of choice for immigrants, asylum and benefit seekers and some of these individuals display the same lack of basic manners as described by the OP which are usually the norm in Western societies.

[jaideeguy]

Bad manners are so commonplace here and it is so contrary to the plastic politeness that the Thais show......the wais, 'khun' whoever and kapunkrap that they use in everyday encounters with people that they have to look at directly in the eyes, but once in a public situation.....there are no rules of courtesy.....que cutting, never an 'excuse me', and road manners are dog eat dog.

But I still try to give way on the road occasionally and when I do, others will take advantage of my weakness and rarely a nod of thank you......opening doors for ladies and older people never gets aknowledged etc

[Thaddeus]

The way your mummy taught you to behave is different to the way my mummy taught me to behave. So my idea of "common courtesy" might have some similarities to you, but also some differences. Since there are billions of mummies in the world, I think we can assume that courtesy is similarly variegated, and respond accordingly - that is, with calm indifference to the behaviour of others.

Quite, nature versus nurture, but I would add.

Why does almost an entire nation think that it is perfectly Ok to go knuckle deep in their noses in plain view, but cover their mouths when using a tooth-pick?

I'd just love some one to explain that.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Thaddeus

[IMA_FARANG]

I am an American, and raised with your "western" values....so I understand what you are saying.

What I don't understand (and I don't mean to be rude) is why you can't comprehend that you are NOT now in Europe, the U.K., or the U.S.A. You are in Thailand, and the norms you grew up with...the one's you sucked in with your mother's milk...are NOT the norms here in Thailand.

Let me expalin about that woman pushing you.

She saw you were a farang, and assumed therefore that you probably didn't speak Thai.

She wanted to get to her husband. boyfriend, or whatever...but she couldn't tell you that in English...and you didn't speak Thai.

So the only solution she saw was to push by you and join her companion.

If you were Thai, and taught proper Thai manners, you would have understood and politely moved aside to allow her to join her companion. But you didn't, and by her Thai standards YOU were being rude.

I'm not saying that's right, I'm just trying to make you understand,, that the "rules" you both learned when you were growing up were different.

That incident was do to mis-communication and the lack of common "rules" on both your parts.

If you stay in Thailand, you should make an effort to at least try to learn the rules of behaviour...if not for your own sanity.

It would be the same way if I, as an American in London and tried to push my way into the queue. It would mean instant hostility from the others in that queue.

Bottom line: you are in Thailand, and all those western standards you learned my or may not apply here. Therefore, you need to put them on hold, and learn the appropriate Thai response...just for your own sanity and well-being.

Edited January 5, 2012 by IMA_FARANG

[kerryk]

The way your mummy taught you to behave is different to the way my mummy taught me to behave. So my idea of "common courtesy" might have some similarities to you, but also some differences. Since there are billions of mummies in the world, I think we can assume that courtesy is similarly variegated, and respond accordingly - that is, with calm indifference to the behaviour of others.

Quite, nature versus nurture, but I would add.

Why does almost an entire nation think that it is perfectly Ok to go knuckle deep in their noses in plain view, but cover their mouths when using a tooth-pick?

I'd just love some one to explain that.

Don't forget plucking armpit hair in public and squeezing pimples but are those things discourteous? I find blowing ones nose on the sidewalk worse than spitting. Seems Western people are inclined to do this more than Thai people. But Thai people don't blow their noses at all do they? Where does it go? Older European apartments and indeed even the Orient Express train did not have showers in the rooms. How one could travel from London to Istanbul without a shower is beyond me.

[Bentley 7]

Most Thais are quite polite in general, however your observations are quite correct, it seems the more hi-s0 or wealthier they seem the worse their manners and in general their behaviour. This perception of self importance is just ludicrous, talk about a big fish in a small pond syndrome, as the real value of these types of individuals is in most cases zero or less. Maybe a French style revolution is needed to clear out this infection in Thai society.

[Furbie]

What you need to understand is that Thailand has not yet developed a system of manners and etiquette to deal with the rapid urbanization taking place. Most people in Thailand, including most in Bangkok, are one generation or first generation off the farm. Wide open spaces, plenty of room to move around people, no one in your way, only your neighbors on the queue in front of you, if the queue even exists. The Western world had over 100 years to adapt to this, and at a slow pace. The Thais are getting all of these things – escalators, major road systems, mass transit, practically all in one go. How is grandma going to teach Somchai how to behave on the BTS when she’s never set foot on it and may have never seen it in person?

It is not Asia that has no manners. Japan is extremely well mannered according to Western standards – they would even say we don’t have manners. It’s a development issue, and one that will get better in Thailand, and Bangkok in particular, as it develops and urbanizes. Yes, there are ignorant people in Thailand who are rude (even by Thai standards). I once encountered two 50 something Thai women on line at a food court chastising the poor server for asking me what I want ahead of them (how dare you serve the farrang before us!). I simply smiled and thanked him in my best Thai and commented on how polite he was. But cut the country a break – they need to adapt their whole culture to a new set of circumstances and it may not happen on your time frame.

[kerryk]

What you need to understand is that Thailand has not yet developed a system of manners and etiquette to deal with the rapid urbanization taking place. Most people in Thailand, including most in Bangkok, are one generation or first generation off the farm. Wide open spaces, plenty of room to move around people, no one in your way, only your neighbors on the queue in front of you, if the queue even exists. The Western world had over 100 years to adapt to this, and at a slow pace. The Thais are getting all of these things – escalators, major road systems, mass transit, practically all in one go. How is grandma going to teach Somchai how to behave on the BTS when she’s never set foot on it and may have never seen it in person?

It is not Asia that has no manners. Japan is extremely well mannered according to Western standards – they would even say we don’t have manners. It’s a development issue, and one that will get better in Thailand, and Bangkok in particular, as it develops and urbanizes. Yes, there are ignorant people in Thailand who are rude (even by Thai standards). I once encountered two 50 something Thai women on line at a food court chastising the poor server for asking me what I want ahead of them (how dare you serve the farrang before us!). I simply smiled and thanked him in my best Thai and commented on how polite he was. But cut the country a break – they need to adapt their whole culture to a new set of circumstances and it may not happen on your time frame.

A lot of big cities in China for a long time. People rude. Explain please.

[bendejo]

Compared to other countries in the region, Thailand, and especially Bangkok, is probably the most polite place in SEA.

It's ok to push people out of the way, cough in their face, etc because YOU are the most important person, and if the others don't like it well, that's their problem. This is considered sociopathic behavior in the West, here it must be respected as part of the culture.

My own term for this perspective on the world is "me first, <deleted> you."