Improving Thailand's Education Quality Faces Many Challenges, Academics Warn

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Improving education quality faces many challenges, academics warn

Wannapa Khaopa

The Nation

Education Minister Woravat Auapinyakul has an important mission to shape a new direction for the country's education - education for careers.

But while this policy is praised by academics, they argue that this mission alone would not be enough to upgrade overall education.

Many more accumulated problems and new challenges are awaiting him after the New Year celebrations. The academics recently gave useful advice on what the minister should pursue to improve the quality of education in separate interviews with The Nation.

They urged the minister to give priority to teacher development and quality improvement.

Professor Pavich Tongroach, chairman of Nakhon Phanom University Council and Kalasin Rajabhat University Council, said education in Thailand faced crises - involving quality, management, teacher production, vocational education and higher education.

The problem of quality is reflected in low scores obtained by Thai students in basic education in international and national tests. The Education Ministry has had problems with management both at the top and lower levels of educational service area offices. A shortage of qualified teachers is also a major problem. Lack of student quantity and quality has threatened vocational education for years. Higher education also has problems with quality of research and teaching, Pavich added.

Associate Professor Witayakorn Chiengkul, honorary dean of the Social Innovation College at Rangsit University, said educational service area offices had much influence - and many had been found to abuse this power. There was also nepotism.

Pavich urged Woravat to start dealing with such educational crises urgently.

Witayakorn called on the minister to improve the quality of education by continuing the second decade of education reform - especially in English language literacy - since the Asean Economic Community (AEC) is due to materialise in a few years.

"The Education Ministry is focusing on quantity and buying things rather than quality. If the minister really wants to move forward on quality improvement, he must study research conducted by the Office of the Education Council that clearly reveals flaws and problems in Thailand's education system and set up projects to solve them directly," he said.

Chainarong Indharameesup, local chairman of Boyden Global Executive Search and a member of the education reform policy committee, said: "I want him to promote numeracy and reading literacy seriously. They are of fundamental importance to other subjects. If students cannot calculate, read or write fluently, how will they be able to develop their knowledge further when studying more complicated subjects?

"The ministry does not need to pay a huge amount of its budget to improve numeracy and literacy. It must tell teachers to teach students in related subjects more strictly and pay more attention to assess their performance. Then, it should host a campaign to praise and award schools with improved performance," he added.

Chainarong also wanted Woravat to implement the education reform plan, saying educational experts, academics, educators and other relevant people had brainstormed and come up with good solutions to upgrade the quality of education. He did not want the plan to be ignored.

"The ministry should make education matter to people in every sector. Educational problems have occurred because [the ministry] has taken the role of education development from society and communities for 20 years and done the development itself, alone. It's time to turn the responsibility over to people in other sectors."

Associate Professor Sombat Noparak, president of the Thailand Education Deans Council, urged Woravat to set a clear goal of quality teacher production and continue supporting the new breed of project that produces quality teachers - since the quality of students depended on teachers' teaching.

-- The Nation 2012-01-06

[noitom]

Here they go again on the education thing, thrashing about throwing stuff on the wall "hoping" something will stick. Some core issues were conspicuously absent from all the "stuff." Thai students notwithstanding a few, at least when they reach the level of university, have an overwhelming sense of entitlement. This corrupts their ability from the start to see the educational process as an opportunity to learn. Thai students lack initiative, desire, and persistence. They have a very limited attention span and are disinterested in most worldly subject matter with little or no work ethic. It's not their fault, they are a by product of Thai culture, where achievement and accomplishment are ranked very low on the list of important values.

Universities blatantly copy textbook and other intellectual property material and distribute it as a profit center and sell the pirated material to the students at prices close to the list price of the actual material. How can students learn to respect law, morality, and ethics if the university itself is teaching the opposite? In numerous cases, privileged class students have had their seats bought and paid for by parents who spend little time before hand instilling moral values, character, and work ethic, but rather absorb them in "Thainess" and they are ill prepared for a true university level learning experience. They are taught to memorize rather than to absorb and understand. They lack basic "conceptualization" and thinking through skills. Another post referred to teaching numeracy, and this is needed, but the ability to comprehend and interpret meaning is a prerequisite to learning how to organize ideas, something that is absent for the most part in university level Thai students.

[blazes]

Yes, Noitom is basically correct. My gf, a teacher, asked me once what she should say in that absurd morning address to the Flag that seems to go on for hours and hours in the hot sun, with the students standing there learning nothing at all from this weird exercise.

Ok, I said, ask the students a simple question: Why do you come to school? What is the point of coming to school?

The thing is, the subject of the question is not as important as the mere fact of being ASKED a question, a question that involves having to THINK before answering, thinking creatively not trying to regurgitate something learned by rote.

It's amazing, actually, how adults in Thailand have a kind of "prepared answer" to most of life's questions, often passing the answer off as "Thai culture".

[Trentham]

Why is it that only we non-Thai people are able to see and understand the problems with the Thai education system?

Students are not encouraged to read. They are not allowed to ask questions of their teachers. They have to learn things by rote. Corruption is rife throughout the system. They buy their degrees very often. Students who do not qualify for entry to uni bribe their way in or get in anyway because of who their family is.

A young friend is attending Bangkok University. He complains that the 35 students in one class cannot understand the lecturer, who is Thai, but teaching in English language. I told him to tell her- "No no," he said "We must respect her." - "Well explain it to uni administration."- "Oh no we I cannot. If she knows it was me she will fail me." Well go with a deputation from all the students. - "Impossible, they all have Thai culture. We cannot."

Now what will happen here is this. Some students knowing they will fail because they cannot understand the lesson will offer her a bribe to pass them. On the other hand, she will know they are not doing very well and many will fail. She will lose face so she will pass them even though they do not know their work.

And anyway most teachers cannot pass their own tests according to the polls.

[Scott]

Education in Thailand: Too many problems; too little time.

[DoctorG]

Here they go again on the education thing, thrashing about throwing stuff on the wall "hoping" something will stick. Some core issues were conspicuously absent from all the "stuff." Thai students notwithstanding a few, at least when they reach the level of university, have an overwhelming sense of entitlement. This corrupts their ability from the start to see the educational process as an opportunity to learn. Thai students lack initiative, desire, and persistence. They have a very limited attention span and are disinterested in most worldly subject matter with little or no work ethic. It's not their fault, they are a by product of Thai culture, where achievement and accomplishment are ranked very low on the list of important values.

Universities blatantly copy textbook and other intellectual property material and distribute it as a profit center and sell the pirated material to the students at prices close to the list price of the actual material. How can students learn to respect law, morality, and ethics if the university itself is teaching the opposite? In numerous cases, privileged class students have had their seats bought and paid for by parents who spend little time before hand instilling moral values, character, and work ethic, but rather absorb them in "Thainess" and they are ill prepared for a true university level learning experience. They are taught to memorize rather than to absorb and understand. They lack basic "conceptualization" and thinking through skills. Another post referred to teaching numeracy, and this is needed, but the ability to comprehend and interpret meaning is a prerequisite to learning how to organize ideas, something that is absent for the most part in university level Thai students.

Agree, and yes, I have taught in thailand

[cdnski12]

I suggest that the Thai Govt institute rigourous exams, not the drivel exams they currently provide for nearly all subjects. The next biggest problem is (dare I say) the Thai language. An inordinate amount odf student time is required toaquire fluency in written and spoken Thai. A fir t step would to do what Vietnam did in 1911 ... Romanize the Thai Alphabet, and simplify it to something like 30-40 letters. This allowed Vietnamese to be learned rapidly; thus allowing time for Math, Physics, Chemistry; however I am uncertain if this extended to History ... a definite lack of which causes me great distress. After living a few years in Thailand I find that i know far more Thai history, than anyone I've met, other than a PhD University professor. Thai's knowledge of their past 1000 years is nearly non existant.

[blazes]

Talking of literacy: how often does one ever see a Thai person reading a BOOK? Go to a coffee shop in any Western country and you will see most of the people who are not engaged in conversation are reading a book or (at the very least) a newspaper.

I suppose you have to include reading articles on the internet also as signs of "reading" as such.

Has anyone seen Thai people using their laptops to READ stuff other than commercial information or (alas) playing games?

[Just1Voice]

The Thai MISEducation system is a joke. I know a young Thai husband and wife, both from wealthy families, who were so proud of their Master's in English, despite the fact they were barely able to hold a simple conversation, and I often had to repleat things in a much easier way for them to comprehend. Both taught here in LOS for a while, then decided to head for the "Land of Milk & Honey" and teach in the U.S. A year later they were back, humbled and humiliated.

It turns out that they applied to 8-9 different school disctricts, and were flatly turned down by all but one, with the reason being their degrees weren't worth the paper they were printed on. The last school district agreed to give them a chance, but only IF they could pass a standard 12th grade English Literacy test. Both failed.

He ended up working the counter in an auto parts store and she got a job in a library till they could save the money to come home, too ashamed to ask their parents for it. The one good thing to come from this is that the wife said that working in the library gave her the opportunity to read, and that she was totally and completely shocked by the books on the history of Thailand, stating they were so totally different from what is taught in Thai schools, which she now realizes is mostly myth, and even flat out lies.

He went back to university and got another degree in IT Technology, and now has a good job in BKK. I'm not sure what she's doing, but it's definitely not teaching.

[tragickingdom]

Academics should not be taken too seriously. They are mostly in their late 50's and 60's and have not done anything in their entire working live to improve education for the poor and middle-class. They were jut showing off their worthless titles. For each and every academic pointing a finger we can fin two giving them the same finger.

[lounger]

On the other hand, she will know they are not doing very well and many will fail. She will lose face so she will pass them even though they do not know their work.

This is the best reason for employing non Thai teachers. We don't have this problem of face. I set and marked exams and was truthful about it. However the thais still wanted recognition so doubtless there was a second list of exam results.

Also I was surprised that I didn't invigilate exams I had set. This has nothing to do with good practice its just that the invigilators bent the rules and helped the students in ways that I wouldn't.

Another poster said:

"If students cannot calculate, read or write fluently, how will they be able to develop their knowledge further when studying more complicated subjects? "

They cannot calculate, read or write because they dont want develop their knowledge. They need to be taught enthusiasm first...learning comes later ( isn't that the basis for the suzuki music teaching system?)

[bangkokbanks]

I had my kids in Thai Private school from Kindergarten through 3rd grade before switching to International. I wanted my (Look Croong - half Thai kids) to learn Thai and Thai culture. Although I do not regret my decision at the early stages of their education, some of the patterns as described by NOITOM above became all too apparent. I agree with some of NOITOM's comments because we must remember it's a system - a culture - a way of life without much worldly influence. Thai education is indelibly influenced entirely by Thai society and despite many that want to change it – unfortunately corruption a major part of the problem. We will have to leave that to another topic, but in a class society like Thailand has – corruption is part of the problem for change.

"To call their education worldly or a place to discover the ways of the world would be an oxymoron. We falongs can't seem to fathom the simplicity of the system."

What many do not know is that it is highly competitive in the schools. The kids from early grades call each other stupid and compete for the top spot in the class. If one does not catch on in class, the teachers often ridicule him or her in front of everyone. It often turns hopeless – these kids are under tremendous stress, if not to make their grades but just to be accepted by their classmates. Humiliation is a major component in the classroom, not a very fruitful way to teach a society, wouldn’t you say? As most of you may agree the Thai education system is based on archaic methods of teaching. None the less, I disagree that the Thai feel entitled. At my business I have personally interviewed more than 100 young Thai graduates from all walks of life. Our business is such that we cannot accept anyone without a college degree. In that time a period of 6 years, I have observed a thing or two about the overall Thai education.

To make a long story short – I noted that even applicants coming from the top three Universities; were not very impressive in the ways of the world. What do I mean the ways of the world? The only reference is akin to a four year college or University graduate from the West. In that way I refer to a worldly person, a student who has gained some prospective on the world, who has had to read and write sufficient papers expressing his or her opinions or defending a point of view. In that way there is no comparison between the two worlds. The level of reasoning, the reading background and most apparent to me, the assertiveness of the Thai graduate is completely different than a Western based undergraduate.

Out of all the applicants interviewed as stated above, only one spoke English; of course this is Thailand, Thai is their language so we cannot expect them to be proficient in a language that is not used here – or can we? That begs a question, that to gain a prospective of the outside world they must rely entirely on their own news sources, albeit newspapers, radio or God forbid Face Book. This is in my opinion a handicap for the young Thai person because in essence they are ignorant that English is even important to bother learning. Most of the society saying “English it’s just too hard to learn.”

On the contrary to my above statements, I also have learned some very positive aspects about the graduates that have graced our small company. The level of sophistication might at first be a hindrance but depending on the person, that was no longer a factor. I found more often than not the eagerness to learn and to succeed in a majority of our early staff members was a refreshing surprise. I did find it common of the applicants to be smart, engaging and clever. Most had a fond interest to learn and the people we hired became valuable assets to our company.

We were lucky to get our kids into a top private Thai school on Sukhumvit, considered the best. I can say I am glad to get them out of there once they had a few years of it. It's a brain washing that is no one's fault; it's just the system at large that is the problem. That is why you will not find a lot of Thais with ideas of how to change and they sure as hell are not going to listen to falong’s to change their system. The rich kids lucky enough to be educated oversees; they normally do not want a low government job after returning to Thailand - which is exactly what is needed to begin making changes to the system.

The final decision to pull my kids out of Thai private school was when we started noticing the rote memory exercises being introduced in the daily lesson plans. My unique prospective of having kids in the system and hiring young Thais out of University got me thinking about the educators themselves. Just have a look at the teachers they hire in the schools, many of these nice people (and many are) are rather simple themselves. I frequently encountered dedicated individuals with a good heart that cared about their students. The problem was their lack of worldly vision as mentioned above. Their being products of the system, they did not know how to encourage creative thinking or problem solving within the classroom. My kids would come home and tell me “the teacher said to memorize this for the test” pointing at a photo copied page of some text book. I can recall the kids having to remember 25 English words a week for a spelling test. This was a Thai school, so there was no teaching phonics or the basics of sounding out of words. We all know there is no long term memory by utilizing this way of learning.

As a whole my experience with Thai graduates is that they are eager to learn and can be good learners. The Thai are smart and can be ambitious if motivated. Remember the average Thai out there is a product of the system, his lack of prospective or interest in reading is not entirely his fault.

We can only hope for their sake, the education system gets a thorough make over.

And that's my two satang’s.

[ajarnyai]

Start with getting rid of the "no-fail" policy, and and devote more school time to classes instead of all the extra-curricular activities.

[thaiorchidsource]

.I have known a few cases that stirred red flags with me with regards to the Thai educational system. One Thai friend confided in me that he had not attended many of his lecturers in obtaining his masters degree. He had also not written his own tests and required papers. He said he slept with his professor, and I believe that he did. But how many with rich or influential parents are buying degrees? You can buy just about anything in Thailand if you have money. It is easy to see that people in Thailand are focused on uniform, not substance. If you drive around, and look at the signs that are written in English, you can see much of the time the person who made the sign misspells, and in several versions of misspelling the same information. I knew of a girl who passed her teachers qualification to teach English, but she could not compose correct sentences, or spell properly. This is the types of people teaching other Thai children English! One worker who I employed had graduated with a degree he claimed in the field of agriculture, but did not seem to know basic information and so I asked to see his diploma. As it turned out he had graduated, but the quality of his education was a serious problem leading to his dismissal from the job we hired him to do. Yet if you ask a question from any Thai person, they will always give you an answer. The problem is in the Thai culture is that loss of face by saying "I don't know" is not allowed, and so your neighbor who sells padthai is practicing medicine. One dental educator advised my wife that our infant son would need to receive emergency treatment for a common childhood disease that is never considered lethal. I sent printed information to this person, who is teaching dental medicine in our university to clear up this matter. What can you expect! A young friend died as the result of a misdiagnosis of a systemic bacteria blood infection, because he thought the disease was toxoplasmosis, which is not treated by antibiotics, and if he had cultured her blood, he would have know she was being overwhelmed by bacteria in her blood, and she died in a few days before I could do anything to help. This doctor is a government doctor, and I question if his parents bought his medical degree. What doctor cannot draw blood and have it cultured to determine the cause of this young woman's health problem, but he must have not done any testing or he would have administered massive IV antibiotics.

[Rhys]

Look only to the schools, universities, and other higher educational organizations that are "doing it", bring in the government and they or somebody's ego Fs it up.. Again parental support is key, start there..

Edited January 6, 2012 by Rhys

[rubik101]

The system is not fit for purpose, as someone once said. The head of the Western Languages dep't in a nearby Uni told me that he wrote his English Language doctorate in Thai, as there was no-one to correct or mark it in English. He told me that this has been the case for years, ever since he has been in the business.

English is most often taught by Thai teachers who face a blackboard and speak Thai all the time. A colleague of mine who teaches privately tells me that not one of the Thai students he has taught had any experience of actually speaking English in the classroom.

Much is said by the 'ministers' who simply exist to draw a fat salary and pontificate. If one of them actually did the job they were supposed to do then Thailand would improve dramatically, as it is, well, look around...

One could only wish that one of the anonymous visitors might just be from the education dep't but that would be too much to hope for.

Edited January 6, 2012 by rubik101

[thanchart]

:

Ok, I said, ask the students a simple question: Why do you come to school? What is the point of coming to school?

The thing is, the subject of the question is not as important as the mere fact of being ASKED a question, a question that involves having to THINK before answering, thinking creatively not trying to regurgitate something learned by rote.

It's amazing, actually, how adults in Thailand have a kind of "prepared answer" to most of life's questions, often passing the answer off as "Thai culture".

555 my Thai team of design engineers are going to have a hard time working with me in the 1st few months. Prepared Answers? Fat hope. I will tell them. I will be telling them that:

• if they have not made mistakes in their work in say 1 year or 2 while working with me, something has to be wrong with them. I expect mistakes, as long as they are not due to negligence. Making mistakes is not a problem; repeating them is a BIG problem.
  
• If they made mistakes and hide them and cover up, they are dead meat. If they share their mistakes so that others can learn to avoid the same, they have grown as a leader. Face is nothing; wisdom to share lessons learned from mistakes is everything. This will be reflected in the rewards they get.
  
• Mediocrity has no place in my team. If all they want to do is what others have already done often, they are not needed. In my team, the minimum performance level is Very Good. Excellent is what I want. Good is a Failure.
  
• I will be challenging them to ask "Why Not?". Asking "Why?" is OK but not sufficient for me.
  
• It is OK to challenge me and my proposals/suggestions. I expect strong designers to stand up for their ideas. They will know I hate yes-men and these will not remain very long in my team.
  
• I do not pay for inflation - if what they do this year is the same (in terms of value-add) as what they did last year, and will be doing next year, don't expect any increment, In fact, with inflation, they may just get a pay-cut.
  
• To lead people forward, I will hold their hands, and if that don't work. I will pull their arm to move them. If they still wanna get stuck, expect a knock the head. Still prefer to stay rooted to the spot? I will chop them off.
  

I've transformed what was called a" bunch of useless, irresponsible China-men" (PRC engineers) into the pillars of he company, a team of clueless Filipinos into Filipino+ (Filipinos but more than just Filipinos - they can compete with the top elsewhere - hehe, they too get head-hunted). What can I do with the Thais? There will be a process of education for them, even as I have also got to learn how to motivate these guys. Let's see.... it will have to be on a fast train, not a slow coach, as I don;t have the time to waste

Edited January 6, 2012 by thanchart

[thanchart]

I had my kids in Thai Private school from Kindergarten through 3rd grade before switching to International. I wanted my (Look Croong - half Thai kids) to learn Thai and Thai culture. Although I do not regret my decision at the early stages of their education, some of the patterns as described by NOITOM above became all too apparent. I agree with some of NOITOM's comments because we must remember it's a system - a culture - a way of life without much worldly influence. Thai education is indelibly influenced entirely by Thai society and despite many that want to change it – unfortunately corruption a major part of the problem. We will have to leave that to another topic, but in a class society like Thailand has – corruption is part of the problem for change

This is absolutely interesting for me, as I was thinking of doing the same with my 2 kids in Philippines who I wanted to bring here next academic year. Was thinking of supplementing with my own motivational style that encourages them to think and tell me what's on their mind, so they are OK with English and I do not allow them to do rote learning too. Maybe I should rethink my plans? Baby's schooling (now almost 2) might be a bigger worry?

What many do not know is that it is highly competitive in the schools. The kids from early grades call each other stupid and compete for the top spot in the class. If one does not catch on in class, the teachers often ridicule him or her in front of everyone. It often turns hopeless – these kids are under tremendous stress, if not to make their grades but just to be accepted by their classmates. Humiliation is a major component in the classroom, not a very fruitful way to teach a society, wouldn’t you say?

Oh no, the teacher can expect me to see him/her personally if this happens to my kids. And we will have a long talk in her native language.

To make a long story short – I noted that even applicants coming from the top three Universities; were not very impressive in the ways of the world. What do I mean the ways of the world? The only reference is akin to a four year college or University graduate from the West. In that way I refer to a worldly person, a student who has gained some prospective on the world, who has had to read and write sufficient papers expressing his or her opinions or defending a point of view. In that way there is no comparison between the two worlds. The level of reasoning, the reading background and most apparent to me, the assertiveness of the Thai graduate is completely different than a Western based undergraduate

Ironically I see the same problem in Phili8ppines, an English speaking country, though I believe it should be on a lesser extent. So it may not be language, Watch their TV programs and one will see why. It's largely local news (and ,lots of Taglish) and mostly on entertainment, variety shows. Of course I refer to over-the-air TV. There is so little news about the world, even Asia and South East Asia. Thailand TV is the same, except even less English.

On the contrary to my above statements, I also have learned some very positive aspects about the graduates that have graced our small company. The level of sophistication might at first be a hindrance but depending on the person, that was no longer a factor. I found more often than not the eagerness to learn and to succeed in a majority of our early staff members was a refreshing surprise. I did find it common of the applicants to be smart, engaging and clever. Most had a fond interest to learn and the people we hired became valuable assets to our company

This is good news. I am in the process of building a team, using maybe 2 imported leaders for quicker kick-off. This tea, has to be a "think-out-of-the-box" team. Done that with China/PRC and Filipino engineers, and looking to repeat or even better the results with the Thais. With what u said, it confirms what I've observed and think I stand a good chance to succeed.

We were lucky to get our kids into a top private Thai school on Sukhumvit, considered the best. I can say I am glad to get them out of there once they had a few years of it. It's a brain washing that is no one's fault; it's just the system at large that is the problem. That is why you will not find a lot of Thais with ideas of how to change and they sure as hell are not going to listen to falong’s to change their system. The rich kids lucky enough to be educated oversees; they normally do not want a low government job after returning to Thailand - which is exactly what is needed to begin making changes to the system.

The final decision to pull my kids out of Thai private school was when we started noticing the rote memory exercises being introduced in the daily lesson plans. My unique prospective of having kids in the system and hiring young Thais out of University got me thinking about the educators themselves. Just have a look at the teachers they hire in the schools, many of these nice people (and many are) are rather simple themselves. I frequently encountered dedicated individuals with a good heart that cared about their students. The problem was their lack of worldly vision as mentioned above. Their being products of the system, they did not know how to encourage creative thinking or problem solving within the classroom. My kids would come home and tell me “the teacher said to memorize this for the test” pointing at a photo copied page of some text book. I can recall the kids having to remember 25 English words a week for a spelling test. This was a Thai school, so there was no teaching phonics or the basics of sounding out of words. We all know there is no long term memory by utilizing this way of learning

So maybe I really need to think this over. So English Speaking Thai private school may not be he answer and I need to look at International school instead? What about Thai private schools with Filipino teachers? have met some here. Do they not give a different perceptive?

As a whole my experience with Thai graduates is that they are eager to learn and can be good learners. The Thai are smart and can be ambitious if motivated. Remember the average Thai out there is a product of the system, his lack of prospective or interest in reading is not entirely his fault.

Great, I will give them he chance/ My Top Mgt expects them to learn. To be fair, my Singapore suppliers have told me the Mgt of this Thai company is not like the typical Thai Mgt.

[bangkokbanks]

I had my kids in Thai Private school from Kindergarten through 3rd grade before switching to International. I wanted my (Look Croong - half Thai kids) to learn Thai and Thai culture. Although I do not regret my decision at the early stages of their education, some of the patterns as described by NOITOM above became all too apparent. I agree with some of NOITOM's comments because we must remember it's a system - a culture - a way of life without much worldly influence. Thai education is indelibly influenced entirely by Thai society and despite many that want to change it – unfortunately corruption a major part of the problem. We will have to leave that to another topic, but in a class society like Thailand has – corruption is part of the problem for change

This is absolutely interesting for me, as I was thinking of doing the same with my 2 kids in Philippines who I wanted to bring here next academic year. Was thinking of supplementing with my own motivational style that encourages them to think and tell me what's on their mind, so they are OK with English and I do not allow them to do rote learning too. Maybe I should rethink my plans? Baby's schooling (now almost 2) might be a bigger worry?

Hi Thanchart, thank you for your interesting responses, I thought I would reply to them, in green color. Bangkokbanks.

I do not want to discourage you from sending your kids to Thai Private Schools. If they are real young, it is a great experience for them to learn Thai and learn Thai culture - it's as if to infuse them or imbue rather than the rest of us that either has to learn Thai the hard way or simply witness and observe the culture. My wife and I thought long and hard before making the decision to send them, she was against it and took some convincing on my part for the go ahead. I caution your kids should be young - Kindergarten, through 1st grade otherwise school picks up at a very fast pace. It helps if one of the parents can speak and read Thai to help with homework assignments but I know some Farong parents that do not know any Thai, they somehow manage. The rewards were great, I encourage it.

What many do not know is that it is highly competitive in the schools. The kids from early grades call each other stupid and compete for the top spot in the class. If one does not catch on in class, the teachers often ridicule him or her in front of everyone. It often turns hopeless – these kids are under tremendous stress, if not to make their grades but just to be accepted by their classmates. Humiliation is a major component in the classroom, not a very fruitful way to teach a society, wouldn’t you say?

Oh no, the teacher can expect me to see him/her personally if this happens to my kids. And we will have a long talk in her native language.

Assuming you may be concerned the teacher is saying that to your children - by all means - STALK THEM, question them give em heck for that. I must digress and clarify my point above, because I was referring to the Thai public school system. My sources in understanding this information are the English newspapers, the Thai News and conversations with Thai people who have been through the system. To calm your concern, this kind of behavior would not be the norm in an expensive Thai Private School. We had nothing but admiration and praise for our kid's teachers, in two separate schools. With regard to kids being mean to other kids; as I am sure you know - we cannot expect to protect our kids from everything, of course the feeling to do so is natural - but often times they won't tell you any way.

To make a long story short – I noted that even applicants coming from the top three Universities; were not very impressive in the ways of the world. What do I mean the ways of the world? The only reference is akin to a four year college or University graduate from the West. In that way I refer to a worldly person, a student who has gained some prospective on the world, who has had to read and write sufficient papers expressing his or her opinions or defending a point of view. In that way there is no comparison between the two worlds. The level of reasoning, the reading background and most apparent to me, the assertiveness of the Thai graduate is completely different than a Western based undergraduate

Ironically I see the same problem in Phili8ppines, an English speaking country, though I believe it should be on a lesser extent. So it may not be language, Watch their TV programs and one will see why. It's largely local news (and ,lots of Taglish) and mostly on entertainment, variety shows. Of course I refer to over-the-air TV. There is so little news about the world, even Asia and South East Asia. Thailand TV is the same, except even less English.

Thai TV has a wide view of things depending on programing and budgets. The middle to upper class Thai that speak English will watch international programs just as we do. The teenagers go nuts for all things Korean and Japan too. I do not see why since the majority of viewers cannot speak either language. The Thai are not completely closed off, they do get news from websites, news shows and magazines. Thai bookstores are full of books, mostly Western books that have been translated. My point was the comparison to an average "good student" graduating from a decent collage or University from the West. As you know, there are plenty of ignorant or dull-minded Westerners that somehow graduated.

On the contrary to my above statements, I also have learned some very positive aspects about the graduates that have graced our small company. The level of sophistication might at first be a hindrance but depending on the person, that was no longer a factor. I found more often than not the eagerness to learn and to succeed in a majority of our early staff members was a refreshing surprise. I did find it common of the applicants to be smart, engaging and clever. Most had a fond interest to learn and the people we hired became valuable assets to our company

This is good news. I am in the process of building a team, using maybe 2 imported leaders for quicker kick-off. This tea, has to be a "think-out-of-the-box" team. Done that with China/PRC and Filipino engineers, and looking to repeat or even better the results with the Thais. With what u said, it confirms what I've observed and think I stand a good chance to succeed.

I love your enthusiasm - I had that once upon a time. "I am in the process of building a team...." Oh yes, the word TEAM..the Thais love it. The problem is no matter how much you explain it to them, they still are slaves to their own conditioning and upbringing. To be fair we all are. I do not know your level of cultural understanding or language ability - please look up the word Greng - Jai เกรงใจ [ being considerate ] This is difficult for Farong bosses to understand. I sometimes wanted to jump off the bridge expecting certain logic to fall into place or information to flow my way.

After years of learning Thai, Thai culture and reading just about every book I could about working with the Thais, I finally came to the conclusion that the word TEAM as we from the West know it, is just not going to fit into the Thai person's vernacular. We at my company resolved this by my partner and I stepping aside and hiring a Thai to manage the Thais. Amazing results - smooth sailing.

Recommendation: A nice little book that revealed so much about Thai ways is by Annie Leo, called "Thais say it Best when they say Nothing at all!" If you do not know this book you are going to love it. I have never seen a book that explained the way Thai think and act. ISBN: 978-974-8280-27-1

We were lucky to get our kids into a top private Thai school on Sukhumvit, considered the best. I can say I am glad to get them out of there once they had a few years of it. It's a brain washing that is no one's fault; it's just the system at large that is the problem. That is why you will not find a lot of Thais with ideas of how to change and they sure as hell are not going to listen to falong’s to change their system. The rich kids lucky enough to be educated oversees; they normally do not want a low government job after returning to Thailand - which is exactly what is needed to begin making changes to the system.

The final decision to pull my kids out of Thai private school was when we started noticing the rote memory exercises being introduced in the daily lesson plans. My unique prospective of having kids in the system and hiring young Thais out of University got me thinking about the educators themselves. Just have a look at the teachers they hire in the schools, many of these nice people (and many are) are rather simple themselves. I frequently encountered dedicated individuals with a good heart that cared about their students. The problem was their lack of worldly vision as mentioned above. Their being products of the system, they did not know how to encourage creative thinking or problem solving within the classroom. My kids would come home and tell me “the teacher said to memorize this for the test” pointing at a photo copied page of some text book. I can recall the kids having to remember 25 English words a week for a spelling test. This was a Thai school, so there was no teaching phonics or the basics of sounding out of words. We all know there is no long term memory by utilizing this way of learning

So maybe I really need to think this over. So English Speaking Thai private school may not be he answer and I need to look at International school instead? What about Thai private schools with Filipino teachers? have met some here. Do they not give a different perceptive?

To qualify my statement above, the problem of rote did not become a factor until 3rd grade, before that I was most pleased with the way school was being taught. I also was ready to make the switch since my oldest daughter was eager to learn how to read and write English - the language spoken in our house. To finish the thought - she clicked right into her grade level about mid year, so the Thai was not a factor. She was ahead in subjects like Math and Science but needed catch up in phonics and the basics of English mechanics. We got her a tutor for 4 months and now she's at her grade level in English school and yet she's fluent in Thai language as well. My idea to put them in Thai to learn Thai paid off.

As a whole my experience with Thai graduates is that they are eager to learn and can be good learners. The Thai are smart and can be ambitious if motivated. Remember the average Thai out there is a product of the system, his lack of prospective or interest in reading is not entirely his fault.

Great, I will give them he chance/ My Top Mgt expects them to learn. To be fair, my Singapore suppliers have told me the Mgt of this Thai company is not like the typical Thai Mgt.

Great news. When you find a good team that works well together it is very rewarding. Problems I found, often result if you promote one when another feels they should have been promoted. Also, do not think that the salaries you pay your staff are secret, it is normal office conversation they know what each other are paid. I couldn't get used to that for a long time, but it is a part of the class consciousness hence their education and upbringing. Who do we pay respect to? I also found I had to be careful not to overly praise one individual above the others in front of everyone. This can create problems. Oh don't get me started - for sure you are in for a bit of fun these next few years.

[KKK]

Talking of literacy: how often does one ever see a Thai person reading a BOOK? Go to a coffee shop in any Western country and you will see most of the people who are not engaged in conversation are reading a book or (at the very least) a newspaper.

I suppose you have to include reading articles on the internet also as signs of "reading" as such.

Has anyone seen Thai people using their laptops to READ stuff other than commercial information or (alas) playing games?

Actually you do see many Thai people reading a newspaper. Just visit your local street-side fried-rice and noodle shop to find the owners have provided one to be read by the patrons (of all ages and financial staus) while waiting for the take-out. But I get your point ... in my local B2S bookshops all you see being read are cartoon books.

Some years ago whilst assisting a freinds family with their son's education I asked "Where is the library in Pattaya?" "We don't have one" I was told. Took a while but I found two, enrolled the boy in one and took him for weekly visits to get books. The library was almost always empty. Pattaya's main library has now moved way out of town to the sport complex in Jomtien off any public bus route. Fat chance of getting people out there to borrow books. They have some mobile libraries but they never seem to move always being parked in the same place when I pass. Education does seem to be low priority in Thailand.

[backsoon]

Here they go again on the education thing, thrashing about throwing stuff on the wall "hoping" something will stick. Some core issues were conspicuously absent from all the "stuff." Thai students notwithstanding a few, at least when they reach the level of university, have an overwhelming sense of entitlement. This corrupts their ability from the start to see the educational process as an opportunity to learn. Thai students lack initiative, desire, and persistence. They have a very limited attention span and are disinterested in most worldly subject matter with little or no work ethic. It's not their fault, they are a by product of Thai culture, where achievement and accomplishment are ranked very low on the list of important values.

Universities blatantly copy textbook and other intellectual property material and distribute it as a profit center and sell the pirated material to the students at prices close to the list price of the actual material. How can students learn to respect law, morality, and ethics if the university itself is teaching the opposite? In numerous cases, privileged class students have had their seats bought and paid for by parents who spend little time before hand instilling moral values, character, and work ethic, but rather absorb them in "Thainess" and they are ill prepared for a true university level learning experience. They are taught to memorize rather than to absorb and understand. They lack basic "conceptualization" and thinking through skills. Another post referred to teaching numeracy, and this is needed, but the ability to comprehend and interpret meaning is a prerequisite to learning how to organize ideas, something that is absent for the most part in university level Thai students.

I tend to agree with above. My past experiences in the field of Education give me a good insight into the problems with Thai system. Obviously, Thais are good in dexterity and creativity areas. Not so good in sci, eng and manufacturing.

Voicing changes at the Uni level will not address the main reasons. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with Thai mind. Thai students from Prep to Uni level are not encouraged to think. understand and conceptualize. The whole system is based on respect, memorisation and drilling. With obvious results. To change this one must look into Education principles from the very early stage. Net result means to change philosophy, which brings us not only to approx 40 years before the results will show (20 to prepare new teachers + 20 to raise new students) but also an X years to change the minds of existing practices. The X factor may be anything from 'never' to another 2500 years. But this is Politics and I am not going into it. I wish all Thais the best of luck, but personally do not believe in it.

[remobb]

Start with getting rid of the "no-fail" policy, and and devote more school time to classes instead of all the extra-curricular activities.

I agree 100%,

We have a "no fail policy" when in fact at least 40% fail. Why do they fail? Do not blame the teachers, they are dictated on how and what to teach. In fact they do not teach, they write on the board and tell students "copy" students get whacked if their writing is the slightest out of line or not "beautiful" They no not what they write as they cannot read their own language as they have not been taught how to but are just expected to know how. Fact! My son is half Thai, born in Thailand, lived and schooled all his life in Thailand, he cannot read or write Thai after 7 years in a Thai school. His English is fine, reading and writing. He can speak and understand Thai and English as any native of both languages.

It's time to concentrate on teaching quality not quantity. It's time to concentrate on teaching not copying. It's time to change the management of most schools as these are the people responsible for the poor state of education in Thai schools.

It's time to concentrate on teaching not profit.

That said, I may as well talk to the wall as Thais just do not listen as they know best!!! or they will not accept that a foreigner may just be correct (not always, but at times we are) or they are embarrassed because it was not their idea and cannot accept an idea from an outsider.

[tortoise]

Are the people who really run the country serious about wanting a well educated population? I would imagine they would be nervous about a generation of young people who might start to question the unquestionable. Surely that is a possible, even likely outcome if they were more aware of their own history and knew more about the world and alternative developmental models.

A patriarchal society rarely encourages challenges from its youth. Isn't that part of what was going on in 1973 and to some extent in 1992?

Sure they would like to have engineers and scientists who can innovate and solve problems but if that comes at the cost of having core cultural values and the present status quo in terms of power and wealth challenged perhaps they will settle for a bit more same-same.

[FangFerang]

"bangkokbanks" speaks clearly, fairly and intelligently. I am always pleasantly surprised when I read a post from people who think before they speak, and only speak when they have something to say that is relevant and can benefit others. Such people are necessarily busy, and take time to disseminate information in a way that benefits people. Pointing fingers, ranting about flaws without serious suggestions for change that can work in our shared conditions, and using sarcasm to become an internet forum star are the easy targets of mediocre minds.

I am, conversely, shocked at the number of people teaching here in Thailand who do not like Thai people. Whatever drove them across the seas to these shores has nothing to do with Thai people. The only falong people I have come to respect here are foreigners who came here by choice. The rest, so far, have sometimes been the worst human debris I have ever met.

I teach science. I had a good run in the US as a database designer, but came here for personal and somewhat tragic reasons. I teach the Thai curriculum at the most successful chain of schools in the country, and have adopted a "stealth" way of teaching. I teach the book, I have the students complete the exercises in their documents, never stray from the core study and still...I teach them to understand core concepts and THINK. It is work, not play. Anyone can come here and go on autopilot very easily, and then erroneously come to the conclusion that one cannot make a difference here. What horrible laziness, what infantile self-serving inactivity...dam_n you sirs and madams who so smug in your self-proclaimed superiority that you imply and never speak overtly how much better than Thais you are. Cowards! Come right out and say how superior our failing cultures are, when those same failures drove YOU here. Punters with no odds placing bets for children they care for and do not even love. You, sirs and madams who believe you are above life here while you live it, are idiots.

I beg to differ that the education system here forces us to be impotent, and insist that educational results are based on the efforts of the teachers, not environment. Yes, there is a cap to the benefit one can enjoy from this environment, but just because the benefit is finite does not mean the benefit is meaningless. Precisely, this has the exact opposite meaning.

This is what I do: all the papers are corrected on time; all the tests are corrected on time; all the workbooks are marked and returned to the students on time. Actually, all of the above are returned EARLY. Not two weeks ahead, but enough of a lead that I can actually teach the most important, core fundamentals of the concepts they need to know. I do this every month. The school is happy, the parents are happy, and I am not a joke to myself and, more importantly, my students are not a joke to me.

There are three requirements here. One, you have to love your subject, and you have to love children. If neither of these prerequisites fail on your own report card you simply should leave the profession and return to your homeland and find a McJob (or change your smug attitude). Period. The third requirement is even trickier. You need to like or, better, love Thai people--not with some smarmy and pathetically shallow simpleton's affection, but one that is entirely real and sensible and humane. I do not understand Thai people, I do not understand my own with any real depth of education to be honest, but understanding and love are very different things. One does not require the other. English people love their country sincerely, as do French and Iranian and Belgian and others, but that does not mean we understand all of our own people--there are simply too many perspectives to understand. If we can give a little tolerance to our own countrymen's perspectives...why not the natives of the country to whom we are guests and who, by-and-large, are kind to us?

If you meet these three requirements of a real educator irrespective of degree, congratulations! You are and will remain in the minority, but you actually have a chance, not a large chance by any means, but you have a chance to help our human race better themselves through thought.

My "stealth" method was vindicated and proven in my second year here. A Thai science teacher who teaches the grade level above me sought me out and came to my office. I was a little edgy about it, actually. She told me that her current students, my previous year students, knew more about science than any class she had ever taught. Please note that this teacher had been with the school for ten years, and I think I deserve to be damned proud of it.

You CAN teach here, if you are willing to get off your beer-drenched ass and put in the effort necessary to make a difference in the life of another human being. I challenge you unequivocally to have some compassion and respect toward the future you address every time you walk into a classroom. Get off this forum and make a lesson plan that involves, intrigues, entertains and....teaches your students. The chance is yours to take.

I DARE you to do better, and stop saying that nothing can be done as a way to excuse your own laziness. Nothing large can be done by us, of course, we are guests in a land that is not our own, but if you walk a thousand miles and deviate one degree from your goal......you are dozens of miles from where you wanted to be. And so will be your students.

Sincerely.

Me.

Edited January 8, 2012 by FangFerang