Commission claims American abuse of prisoners in Afghanistan

[bonobo]

Admittedly without knowing the facts in this specific case, what gets my personal goat is the way the media and foreign powers sensationalize things.

The "torture" in Iraq was mostly sophomoric, stupid humiliation. But the media used it to sell advertising. Some powers used it to diminish the US while ignoring a huge number of cases of real torture, real murder.

Not on the same topic, but I hate the way the CNN-led crusade against slavery lumps everything under the same banner, from coyotes on the US border to Filipina camgirls. (And the US government has joined this particular crusade.)

What I hate about these things is that they diminish the real crime. So much crying wolf builds social calluses.

When I read the topic report, I immediately thought "Here we go again!" I felt that this was just one more witch-hunt. Yet I have no knowledge on what happened there. In this area, I have formed quite a large social callus.

[Wallaby]

Admittedly without knowing the facts in this specific case, what gets my personal goat is the way the media and foreign powers sensationalize things.

The "torture" in Iraq was mostly sophomoric, stupid humiliation. But the media used it to sell advertising. Some powers used it to diminish the US while ignoring a huge number of cases of real torture, real murder.

Not on the same topic, but I hate the way the CNN-led crusade against slavery lumps everything under the same banner, from coyotes on the US border to Filipina camgirls. (And the US government has joined this particular crusade.)

What I hate about these things is that they diminish the real crime. So much crying wolf builds social calluses.

When I read the topic report, I immediately thought "Here we go again!" I felt that this was just one more witch-hunt. Yet I have no knowledge on what happened there. In this area, I have formed quite a large social callus.

You've gone from saying the number of tortures has been blown out of proportion to now saying there are a huge number of cases of real torture.

[Scott]

An extremely insensitive video has been deleted. It shows up again and a suspension will be given.

[Ulysses G.]

You've gone from saying the number of tortures has been blown out of proportion to now saying there are a huge number of cases of real torture.

It seems to me that the real torture he is refering to was not done by the USA.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[bangkaew]

i am against foreign war but it is laughable that this is news. We are told about this, not about civilian deaths from drone attacks etc, to make the public think 'well if that is the worst our boys do then I am actually proud!'

[Exsexyman]

"Urinating on a dead body=lack of respect".

Imagine the uproar from the likes of UllyssesG if it were Taliban fighters urinating on the bodies of dead US soldiers. Dont think he would confine his comments to "It was stupid".

Well you are wrong as usual. I could care less if they urinate on dead enemy soldiers in the middle of a war. Drilling a guy to death or cutting someone's head off when they are alive is the kind of thing that gets my goat.

Wrong as usual? I doubt it somehow. Surely the important point about this, ie abuse of prisoners or whatever, is that it must give great support and comfort to enemies of the US everywhere, especially when the images will be seen all over the world via youtube. In practical terms on the ground, these incidents will cause far more deaths and injuries to US forces worldwide than Bradley Manning for example ever could. The perpetrators should be charged with giving comfort and succour to the enemy and sent to Guantanamo Bay. That would concentrate the minds of anyone else thinking about indulging in this sort of behaviour.

[Ulysses G.]

When I read the topic report, I immediately thought "Here we go again!" I felt that this was just one more witch-hunt.

Exactly - making a mountain out of a molehill.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[philw]

We don't know what heads might have rolled within other branches of the government, but in this case, the military, and particularly the Army Reserve and National Guard, took the brunt of the public witch-burning.

What we do know is this....Things like water boarding is facts...Yet after WWII the USA hung Japanese that used the same technique on American prisoners.

As far as I know yes maybe a few heads rolled figuratively but none were dealt with in the same way or with the same gusto that the Japanese who performed such crimes were.

I also do not agree with you saying the Military took the brunt of it.

It does not matter if the CIA, Military or funny little guys with accents provided the torture...It happened under our watch in our prisons.

So it is not the Military that took the brunt of it............No Sir...............It was AMERICA &

We The People resent it

You can no more separate the military or the CIA etc from the body that is America. These goons are acting in our name & on our dime.

They are still OUR employees. As such it is us/America that takes the brunt of it in the eyes of the world.

What once was respected is no longer respected......What we once executed others for we now condone.

There is no point in debating pissing versus some other form of disgusting behavior.... It is bad & not representative

of a once great Nation period.

Great post and well said, though it won't be liked.

Lose the ideals and lose the war.............

[Exsexyman]

We don't know what heads might have rolled within other branches of the government, but in this case, the military, and particularly the Army Reserve and National Guard, took the brunt of the public witch-burning.

What we do know is this....Things like water boarding is facts...Yet after WWII the USA hung Japanese that used the same technique on American prisoners.

As far as I know yes maybe a few heads rolled figuratively but none were dealt with in the same way or with the same gusto that the Japanese who performed such crimes were.

I also do not agree with you saying the Military took the brunt of it.

It does not matter if the CIA, Military or funny little guys with accents provided the torture...It happened under our watch in our prisons.

So it is not the Military that took the brunt of it............No Sir...............It was AMERICA &

We The People resent it

You can no more separate the military or the CIA etc from the body that is America. These goons are acting in our name & on our dime.

They are still OUR employees. As such it is us/America that takes the brunt of it in the eyes of the world.

What once was respected is no longer respected......What we once executed others for we now condone.

There is no point in debating pissing versus some other form of disgusting behavior.... It is bad & not representative

of a once great Nation period.

Great post and well said, though it won't be liked.

Lose the ideals and lose the war.............

Oh it will be liked by those of us who have open minds, and not tunnel vision! But sadly in the minds of some, criticism of army personnel abusing human beings, dead or alive, in a disgusting way is of course, "Making a mountain out of a molehill"!

[Ulysses G.]

What I hate about these things is that they diminish the real crime. So much crying wolf builds social calluses.

Crying wolf indeed.

[Exsexyman]

What I hate about these things is that they diminish the real crime. So much crying wolf builds social calluses.

Crying wolf indeed.

Lack of content duly noted!

[koheesti]

We don't know what heads might have rolled within other branches of the government, but in this case, the military, and particularly the Army Reserve and National Guard, took the brunt of the public witch-burning.

What we do know is this....Things like water boarding is facts...Yet after WWII the USA hung Japanese that used the same technique on American prisoners.

As far as I know yes maybe a few heads rolled figuratively but none were dealt with in the same way or with the same gusto that the Japanese who performed such crimes were.

I also do not agree with you saying the Military took the brunt of it.

It does not matter if the CIA, Military or funny little guys with accents provided the torture...It happened under our watch in our prisons.

So it is not the Military that took the brunt of it............No Sir...............It was AMERICA &

We The People resent it

You can no more separate the military or the CIA etc from the body that is America. These goons are acting in our name & on our dime.

They are still OUR employees. As such it is us/America that takes the brunt of it in the eyes of the world.

What once was respected is no longer respected......What we once executed others for we now condone.

There is no point in debating pissing versus some other form of disgusting behavior.... It is bad & not representative

of a once great Nation period.

Great post and well said, though it won't be liked.

Lose the ideals and lose the war.............

Oh it will be liked by those of us who have open minds, and not tunnel vision!

Ah, yes, the famous If-you-have-a-different-opinion-to-my-own-you-must-be-an-ignorant-lemming-with-tunnel-vision position. This is usually made by conspiracy theory nuts who swear that everything you read is a LIE! but everything they read is the God honest TRUTH! It's the cousin of another old favorite like All-clear-thinking-people-believe...implying that if you disagree you aren't thinking clearly. 555

Back to how the media sensationalizes these things. Yes the action is deplorable. Broadcasting it to the entire world actually leads to more deaths and not always among the offending party. For example those (false) reports of Koran abuse at Gitmo - how many died during protests in Pakistan? We'llnever know how many were motivated to take up arms against Westerners over this. It also needs to be pointed out that these things don't only hard Americans, they put all Westerners at risk. Just as a Sikh wearing a turban in parts of the USA will be mistaken as a Muslim, in parts of the Muslim world all Westerners (the white ones at least) are all lumped together. In conclusion, pissing on a corpse and humiliating POWs are mistakes, but putting them on the front page of the New York Times for 40+ days in a row just to sell ads and take political shots can be more dangerous and irresponsible.

[bonobo]

Admittedly without knowing the facts in this specific case, what gets my personal goat is the way the media and foreign powers sensationalize things.

The "torture" in Iraq was mostly sophomoric, stupid humiliation. But the media used it to sell advertising. Some powers used it to diminish the US while ignoring a huge number of cases of real torture, real murder.

Not on the same topic, but I hate the way the CNN-led crusade against slavery lumps everything under the same banner, from coyotes on the US border to Filipina camgirls. (And the US government has joined this particular crusade.)

What I hate about these things is that they diminish the real crime. So much crying wolf builds social calluses.

When I read the topic report, I immediately thought "Here we go again!" I felt that this was just one more witch-hunt. Yet I have no knowledge on what happened there. In this area, I have formed quite a large social callus.

You've gone from saying the number of tortures has been blown out of proportion to now saying there are a huge number of cases of real torture.

Sorry if I wasn't clear in my post, but I was referring to the daily torture and murder committed by Saddam's forces pre-invasion and by both Sunni and Shia militias from about Feb 2006 on (there were cases prior to the Golden Mosque bombing, but the number of incidents skyrocketed after that.)

I previously referred to them with the example of the practice to killing people with electric drills, starting in non-lethal areas before finally drilling the death blow.

[nurofiend]

Pissing on the dead bodies of your enemy is stupid, but it is not "torture".

My point exactly. It is very, very stupid, and it damages our cause, but it is not torture.

Slowly drilling a guy to death=torture

Forcing prisoners to form a naked dogpile= humiliation

Urinating on a dead body=lack of respect

All are bad, but only one can really considered to be torture, despite what the press says.

what about hanging someone on chains by the arms so they can't sleep, beating the shit out of him for a few days and then letting him die because of this

torture?

i'm still aghast as to why no one has mentioned watching the video i posted PROVING that torture went on with regards to what the OP article and this whole discussion is about

living in denial? ...i don't know...... but what else should i call it

Edited January 12, 2012 by nurofiend

[flying]

i'm still aghast as to why no one has mentioned watching the video i posted PROVING that torture went on with regards to what the OP article and this whole discussion is about

living in denial? ...i don't know...... but what else should i call it

I did watch it back when you posted it..........I thought I clicked like next to it but just now see it is un-checked?

So have again? checked it.

In any case it was a very well done documentary & if nothing else I am glad that there are still folks who know right from wrong & risk themselves

to report it.

Not just folks who will justify wrong with weak excuses that compare what they did to what they deemed worse.

As one of those interviewed said....At times when he is told "well what happened there was not REALLY torture"

He replies...well death is torture

Also to note they mention 105 deaths there at least 25 were ruled Homicides & surely more were but reported as natural causes.

It really is a sad disgusting state of affairs & folks should be prosecuted/hung/shot/ or given over to the Iraqi courts for prosecution.

I have mentioned in the past that the American courts found guilty Japanese of crimes of torture & hung them.

I have no problem with that or doing the same now to those who used torture to get what they thought they needed out of these folks.

We ( The USA ) have gone after Nazi's, Japanese & others for doing such things. Let us now be consistent & go after those that committed these crimes in our countries name.

Yes sad & disgusting...But no matter what the Nationality of the perpetrators the punishments should be dealt out.

As I said the only good thing about that video is that it was made by folks who still know the difference & do not try to justify the unjustifiable PERIOD.

Edited January 13, 2012 by flying

[bonobo]

Pissing on the dead bodies of your enemy is stupid, but it is not "torture".

My point exactly. It is very, very stupid, and it damages our cause, but it is not torture.

Slowly drilling a guy to death=torture

Forcing prisoners to form a naked dogpile= humiliation

Urinating on a dead body=lack of respect

All are bad, but only one can really considered to be torture, despite what the press says.

what about hanging someone on chains by the arms so they can't sleep, beating the shit out of him for a few days and then letting him die because of this

torture?

i'm still aghast as to why no one has mentioned watching the video i posted PROVING that torture went on with regards to what the OP article and this whole discussion is about

living in denial? ...i don't know...... but what else should i call it

Since you are quoting me, I have to assume that you are aiming your criticisms at me as well.

Have you read my posts? I am not sure how this video contradicts anything I have posted. Let me sum some things up:

1. I have stated that I am against physical torture.

2. I think the Bush administration's decision to state that the detainees were not covered by the Geneva Convention was wrong.

3. I stated that there were some cases of torture in Iraq, especially prior to 2006.

4. I have no direct knowledge of what went on in Afghanistan

Now, about the video:

1. Diliwar's death was tragic. He suffered abuse and died from it.

2. While I think higher ups should have been prosecuted, action was taken. The soldiers were punished, and steps were taken on a command and control level to bring things back in line with the Army Field Manual.

3. Blaring loud music, having dogs bark, complaining about breakfast cereal, making men stand naked, having a female soldier "invade their personal space," making them wear lingerie, accusing them of homosexuality--nope, not torture.

4. The documentary brought to light that initially, the soldiers on the ground had little guidance, and the force shift used against prisoners was instigated by higher ups, in this case, very high up. It showed that abuse did occur, but it failed to show that systemic torture occurred in Afghanistan or Iraq caused by soldiers, other than hitting the legs. Some guards did state they applied beatings because they "could," though.

5. The documentary failed to really show what happened in 2006 and after when the entire system was over-hauled. While abuses did happen prior to that, no real effort was made to point out that in the US, the system allows for problems to be fixed.

[kerryk]

3. Blaring loud music, having dogs bark, complaining about breakfast cereal, making men stand naked, having a female soldier "invade their personal space," making them wear lingerie, accusing them of homosexuality--nope, not torture. It is a club in Pattaya. I think on 3rd av.

Edited January 13, 2012 by kerryk

[Wallaby]

There is physical torture and psychological torture. They are both torture. Sleep deprivation is not physical torture but is know to be a very effective torture.

Sit in your car with blaring loud music for any length of time and see how you cope. Unless you wear your pants down to your knees and have you cap on backwards I would think you'd go absolutely bonkers after an hour or so.

Of course they wouldn't do it if they didn't think it would cause great discomfort (yes torture) would they. What possible reason could they have for doing it?

[Wallaby]

Psychological forms of torture and ill-treatment, which very often have the most long-lasting consequences for victims, commonly include: isolation, threats, humiliation, mock executions, mock amputations, and witnessing the torture of others.

http://www.irct.org/what-is-torture/defining-torture.aspx

[kerryk]

There is physical torture and psychological torture. They are both torture. Sleep deprivation is not physical torture but is know to be a very effective torture.

Sit in your car with blaring loud music for any length of time and see how you cope. Unless you wear your pants down to your knees and have you cap on backwards I would think you'd go absolutely bonkers after an hour or so.

Of course they wouldn't do it if they didn't think it would cause great discomfort (yes torture) would they. What possible reason could they have for doing it?

I did that. I now have three bar girls in the car and the parking lot attendant is dancing. Not going bonkers yet. But I will keep you informed.

[Scott]

Most parents learn to endure the torture of their children's music. Not only was I subjected to the music, but one was learning to play the guitar and another learning to play the drums.

Here in Thailand, my neighbors like collecting yappy little dogs.

Yes, it is torture and it will not be mitigated by the solace of a few dancing bar girls and the sweet taste of reward at the end of the evening. Now back to the topic....

[Wallaby]

Most parents learn to endure the torture of their children's music. Not only was I subjected to the music, but one was learning to play the guitar and another learning to play the drums.

Here in Thailand, my neighbors like collecting yappy little dogs.

Yes, it is torture and it will not be mitigated by the solace of a few dancing bar girls and the sweet taste of reward at the end of the evening. Now back to the topic....

Oh come on Scott, please allow us a little fun. I'm wanting to know how Kerryk gets on with his 4some. Lucky git.

[kerryk]

No Scott is right. I was making fun of a serious issue. We have not won a war since WWII because the diplomats have taken over command. War is what you do after diplomacy fails. War is not civilized. Civilized people don't win wars. The Russian front and Atomic bombing during WW II.

All you civilized people could not work out the problem. You asked the soldiers to come in and solve the problem. Soldiers aren't diplomats. They get paid to be uncivilized and kill people. First you train soldiers to be uncivilized and overcome the civilized conditioning they were brought up with. And then you expect them to act civilized! Face it a soldier is trained to to replace wild turkeys with people. You hunt them and shoot them. Be thankful they don't eat em.

If you want to be civilized prepare for the barbarian hoards to march into Rome again.

I'm just saying....

[Scott]

Don't read too much into my post. It just struck me in that off-topic manner. I remember feeling 'tortured' by my kids. I could go outside, but obnoxious, loud music is really, really unpleasant. I think we all know how he got on with the ladies....

So perhaps you and I should get back to the topic! I am going to be embarrassed if another mod comes along and deletes my post for being off-topic.

[kerryk]

I must admit to being a pragmatist when it comes to war and women. This puts me at odds with a lot of contemporary morals experts. When the other side plays El Deguello I would accommodate them in the same way with the same tune. You could say that makes me no better than them. Ya right I would be worse; that's how you win.

[Steely Dan]

No Scott is right. I was making fun of a serious issue. We have not won a war since WWII because the diplomats have taken over command. War is what you do after diplomacy fails. War is not civilized. Civilized people don't win wars. The Russian front and Atomic bombing during WW II.

All you civilized people could not work out the problem. You asked the soldiers to come in and solve the problem. Soldiers aren't diplomats. They get paid to be uncivilized and kill people. First you train soldiers to be uncivilized and overcome the civilized conditioning they were brought up with. And then you expect them to act civilized! Face it a soldier is trained to to replace wild turkeys with people. You hunt them and shoot them. Be thankful they don't eat em.

If you want to be civilized prepare for the barbarian hoards to march into Rome again.

I'm just saying....

To add to their woes the troops get mixed messages from those in charge and also have to contend with a press and sundry other compatriots who appear to be batting for the other team, I'm not sure even a declining Roman empire had that much to put up with.

[Jingthing]

If they're guilty punish them and move on.

[Wallaby]

Don't read too much into my post. It just struck me in that off-topic manner. I remember feeling 'tortured' by my kids. I could go outside, but obnoxious, loud music is really, really unpleasant. I think we all know how he got on with the ladies....

So perhaps you and I should get back to the topic! I am going to be embarrassed if another mod comes along and deletes my post for being off-topic.

I was only joking, good to have a bit of a laugh on serious matters sometimes. But I would really laugh for a week if another mod deleted your post, that would be hilarious.

Kerryk's post is right, the military are trained to basically ignore society norms as they must go and kill. It also de sensitises them and the line between right and wrong is more easily crossed.

In saying that, one must also understand that it is even more so for those the allies are fighting because it is in their country, they feel more aggrieved. So when there are images of allied soldiers bodies being hacked or dragged through the streets it should not surprise anyone, nor should they be condemned for doing so...........if that argument is accepted.

[nurofiend]

Pissing on the dead bodies of your enemy is stupid, but it is not "torture".

My point exactly. It is very, very stupid, and it damages our cause, but it is not torture.

Slowly drilling a guy to death=torture

Forcing prisoners to form a naked dogpile= humiliation

Urinating on a dead body=lack of respect

All are bad, but only one can really considered to be torture, despite what the press says.

what about hanging someone on chains by the arms so they can't sleep, beating the shit out of him for a few days and then letting him die because of this

torture?

i'm still aghast as to why no one has mentioned watching the video i posted PROVING that torture went on with regards to what the OP article and this whole discussion is about

living in denial? ...i don't know...... but what else should i call it

Since you are quoting me, I have to assume that you are aiming your criticisms at me as well.

Have you read my posts? I am not sure how this video contradicts anything I have posted. Let me sum some things up:

1. I have stated that I am against physical torture.

2. I think the Bush administration's decision to state that the detainees were not covered by the Geneva Convention was wrong.

3. I stated that there were some cases of torture in Iraq, especially prior to 2006.

4. I have no direct knowledge of what went on in Afghanistan

Now, about the video:

1. Diliwar's death was tragic. He suffered abuse and died from it.

2. While I think higher ups should have been prosecuted, action was taken. The soldiers were punished, and steps were taken on a command and control level to bring things back in line with the Army Field Manual.

3. Blaring loud music, having dogs bark, complaining about breakfast cereal, making men stand naked, having a female soldier "invade their personal space," making them wear lingerie, accusing them of homosexuality--nope, not torture.

4. The documentary brought to light that initially, the soldiers on the ground had little guidance, and the force shift used against prisoners was instigated by higher ups, in this case, very high up. It showed that abuse did occur, but it failed to show that systemic torture occurred in Afghanistan or Iraq caused by soldiers, other than hitting the legs. Some guards did state they applied beatings because they "could," though.

5. The documentary failed to really show what happened in 2006 and after when the entire system was over-hauled. While abuses did happen prior to that, no real effort was made to point out that in the US, the system allows for problems to be fixed.

i quoted you because you were listing acts and saying "not torture".

and i was highlighting that torture did in fact take place there.

my comments weren't personally aimed at you by any means, just a general consensus of how people seemed to be ignoring the evidence that the vid provided if viewed.

and tbh, i would understand how some american people can suffer from some level of denial because an incident like what happened to diliwar is a very shameful one and maybe some americans feel things like this as a blow to their national pride.

what i've noticed in these discussions is people seem to use an argument of "yeah well it's nothing compared to how the taliban etc etc".. it's an attempt to take the focus away and to rationalize wrong doings that have occurred.

as for the doc failing to show evidence of torture other than hitting the legs, i'd have to disagree with you on that.

[flying]

Standard Operating Procedure was another film nominated for many awards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3NKikNcHM4&feature=related