Commission claims American abuse of prisoners in Afghanistan

[Wallaby]

Bonobo, thank you for the clarification and your country needs more like you serving the country.

[orangezeke]

I prefer to believe the allegations of torture and denial of legal counsel claims.

What a surprise.

However, bonobo has actually seen how these prisoners are actually treated and is a committed liberal, so has no reason to cover anything up if they were tortured. He says that the whole thing was blown out of proportion and that seems to fit the facts.

No, with respect to Bonobo, he has not seen how the prisoners are treated, he has seen how 'some' of them are treated. I'm sure he isn't covering anything up, he's simply stating what he has observed. I'm sure he will correct me if I am wrong but I doubt very much he would be privvy to any requests by lawyers to the US administration to visit prisoners and I also doubt he was on duty 24/7 guarding all prisoners at the same time.

A normal person would think that any torturing would be kept between those that need to know and not every Tom Dick and Harry would be aware of such things. I'd be very surprised if they put out a TV Guide stating at 11pm is waterboarding in cell 209 followed by a quick electric shock session in cell 308.

So, someone who has actually been there doesn't have insight into what is really going on but someone who gets their info from reading a blog or a forum like this does?

the plural of anecdotes is not data

[koheesti]

So because Bonobo was there he knows everything that went on. Is that what you are saying.

I think you're being disingenuous by saying that. You know that's not what I wrote. Having insight from personal experience does NOT mean someone knows EVERYTHING that went on. But he certainly knows more than the guy whose experience is limited to sitting at home reading blogs and forums.

I wonder how many of you living in Thailand think you know more about what is happening in Thailand than I do, sitting over here in the USA (for now) and reading ThaiVisa?

[bonobo]

I hesitate a bit from writing this because I don't want to sound like a blowhard or pulling rank (especially as my rank now is civilian, same as anyone else.) But I guess I can say that I when I was there, I was one of top 15 or 20 senior US officers in the country (it was hard to tell with the dates of rank of all the various services). And I was there when all this broke, I was there through the investigation, and I was there for the initial reforms. I physically went to the prison to get my own views on it and discussed this at length with the Army three star's dog robber, an Army colonel, and with a fellow Marine colonel who was on the prison compound.

I bother to write this not to blow my own horn, but to give credence to what I do know about it. I think I might have a better overview than the casual ThaiVisa poster. That does not make me infallible or absolutely right in my convictions, of course. But I do think my views should carry at least a little weight.

Bottom line is that in Iraq, some huge mistakes were made which served our nation poorly and resulted in more than a few Army soldiers being executed by Iraqis. It was stupid, stupid, stupid. Most of these, though, cannot be really considered to be torture. Yes, there were some things prior to 2006 which could be referred to as torture. Supposedly, some of the information gathered in this way was useful, but I have no direct confirmation on that. Regardless, I don't think we should sink that low, and to use the excuse that the prisoners were not combatants protected by the Geneva Convention, while technically, that can be argued, was a mere legal gambit and reflected poorly on the US. During and after 2006, most of that stopped.

Now what has that to do with Afghanistan? Nothing directly. But when I read the Western and Islamic press reports about the horrendous "torture" going on in Iraq, I knew this to be a pretty gross exaggeration, so I merely posted to ask readers to take these reports about Afghanistan with a grain of salt.

[nurofiend]

seriously people ye need to watch the documentary i posted in page 1 and then come back and say there wasn't extreme physical torture in bagram but just 'phsycholigical'....

it won an oscar btw and is made by an american who's father was an interrogator.

here's a quote from him

"This is dedicated to two people who are no longer with us, Dilawar, the young Afghan taxi driver, and my father, a navy interrogator who urged me to make this film because of his fury about what was being done to the rule of law. Let’s hope we can turn this country around, move away from the dark side and back to the light"

his father is also interviewed in it.

Edited January 11, 2012 by nurofiend

[Wallaby]

I hesitate a bit from writing this because I don't want to sound like a blowhard or pulling rank (especially as my rank now is civilian, same as anyone else.) But I guess I can say that I when I was there, I was one of top 15 or 20 senior US officers in the country (it was hard to tell with the dates of rank of all the various services). And I was there when all this broke, I was there through the investigation, and I was there for the initial reforms. I physically went to the prison to get my own views on it and discussed this at length with the Army three star's dog robber, an Army colonel, and with a fellow Marine colonel who was on the prison compound.

I bother to write this not to blow my own horn, but to give credence to what I do know about it. I think I might have a better overview than the casual ThaiVisa poster. That does not make me infallible or absolutely right in my convictions, of course. But I do think my views should carry at least a little weight.

Bottom line is that in Iraq, some huge mistakes were made which served our nation poorly and resulted in more than a few Army soldiers being executed by Iraqis. It was stupid, stupid, stupid. Most of these, though, cannot be really considered to be torture. Yes, there were some things prior to 2006 which could be referred to as torture. Supposedly, some of the information gathered in this way was useful, but I have no direct confirmation on that. Regardless, I don't think we should sink that low, and to use the excuse that the prisoners were not combatants protected by the Geneva Convention, while technically, that can be argued, was a mere legal gambit and reflected poorly on the US. During and after 2006, most of that stopped.

Now what has that to do with Afghanistan? Nothing directly. But when I read the Western and Islamic press reports about the horrendous "torture" going on in Iraq, I knew this to be a pretty gross exaggeration, so I merely posted to ask readers to take these reports about Afghanistan with a grain of salt.

Yet we have some on here that think that all prisoners just make up the torture allegations which is simply not true. If it wasn't for the whistleblower at Abu Ghraib then no one would be the wiser. It is near impossible to confirm a torture allegation to be true when the only people that would know are the torturer and the torturee (if that is a word ). Most would take the word of the 'western' guards above that of the prisoner so while a lot of claims may be true there is simply no direct evidence so nothing will or can be done about it.

These claims should not be treated in the same way as a prisoner in the US, or any other country because in those countries you are actually convicted of a crime and that's why you are in jail (unless bail refused). These 'prisoners' in Abu Ghraib are not criminals.....yet. I'm not sure how many have been actually charged with anything but I think it is very very few so one can't just dismiss their torture claims as the rantings of criminals.

Another issue is that the US has tried to distance itself from actually conducting the interrogations that involved torture by 'outsourcing'. In my view that does not absolve the US. The US has a duty of care to ensure that when they move a prisoner to another country then there are procedures in place to ensure that prisoner is not subject to torture. Though we know the reason they are actually moved is so they CAN be tortured.

And then there is the extraordinary renditions which is just wrong on so many points I won't even start to go into it.

[Ulysses G.]

I think I might have a better overview than the casual ThaiVisa poster.

That is putting it VERY mildly.

[flying]

I think I might have a better overview than the casual ThaiVisa poster.

That is putting it VERY mildly.

Nothing against bonobo but..............this is the internet

Anyone taking another (unknown in reality) posters word as gospel on anything is weak at best.

I think I rather stick to facts backed by photos/testimonies in court etc.

Opinions? great....We have many...Everyone has one & is entitled to it IMO

But it is not uncommon for anonymous folks to "claim" 1st hand experience of things on the internet.

That is all it is...a unsubstantiated claim.

Again I am speaking generally & not directing this at bonobo in particular

[Ulysses G.]

I have been reading bonobo's posts for years and he is very knowledgeable about the Marine Corps and the American military. He is the real deal. He was an officer and a Recon Marine and he knows a lot more about this situation than the peanut gallery on internet forums and is well worth listening to.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[Scott]

I think we can discuss the content of the OP and not individual posters. We are fortunate to have someone with knowledge and first hand experience. Those posts would seem to indicate that abuse was not SOP

Did or does abuse occur in Military prisons overseas? My guess, and the OP, would seem to indicate that it does. The questions are: is it condoned by those higher up? Is there a concerted effort to cover it up? Are those involved punished?

Let's keep in mind that those who are incarcerated are not the nicest or easiest people to deal with. Unfortunately, there will always be a few innocent people who get tangled up in the system.

[Ulysses G.]

Did or does abuse occur in Military prisons overseas? My guess, and the OP, would seem to indicate that it does. The questions are: is it condoned by those higher up? Is there a concerted effort to cover it up? Are those involved punished?

I agree that there is abuse. It occurs in prisons almost everywhere and that includes civilian prisons. However, as another poster suggested, these charges are likely another case of gross exaggeration, rather than any secret policy by the US miltary..

[chuckd]

Let me thank Bonobo for his input. Having worked with the US military for years I am sure he is real. He uses the buzz words.

Most anybody that has been around the military would recognize them.

[bonobo]

Another issue is that the US has tried to distance itself from actually conducting the interrogations that involved torture by 'outsourcing'. In my view that does not absolve the US. The US has a duty of care to ensure that when they move a prisoner to another country then there are procedures in place to ensure that prisoner is not subject to torture. Though we know the reason they are actually moved is so they CAN be tortured.

I concur 100%. While the US military did conduct many of the stupid humiliation-type incidents, often with the active encouragement from the civilian/CIA/whatever, very little concerted "torture" can be attributed to military personnel. Military guards delivered the prisoners to the interrogators and picked them up, but were not present for the interrogations themselves. The harsh methods were primarily conducted by men in civilian clothes, presumably American, but also by men with other accents, and by Iraqi and other Arab nationals.

However, the excuse that "we didn't do it ourselves" did not work for BG Karpinski (later demoted to colonel). And so, if it didn't work for her, then it can't work for us as a nation when we ship off prisoners to other nations to let them do the dirty work.

We don't know what heads might have rolled within other branches of the government, but in this case, the military, and particularly the Army Reserve and National Guard, took the brunt of the public witch-burning.

[Wallaby]

Did or does abuse occur in Military prisons overseas? My guess, and the OP, would seem to indicate that it does. The questions are: is it condoned by those higher up? Is there a concerted effort to cover it up? Are those involved punished?

I agree that there is abuse. It occurs in prisons almost everywhere and that includes civilian prisons. However, as another poster suggested, these charges are likely another case of gross exaggeration, rather than any secret policy by the US miltary..

There is nothing secret about it, GWB ordered the torture.

[Wallaby]

This was from back on 2004. Of course since then Bush admitted he ordered torture.

An e-mail to senior FBI officials released yesterday under a Freedom of Information Act request repeatedly referred to an Executive Order that permitted military interrogators in Iraq to place detainees in painful stress positions, impose sensory deprivation through the use of hoods, intimidate them with military dogs and use other coercive methods.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2004/12/20/us-did-president-bush-order-torture

So it was hardly secretive and would prefer it if those that actually gave the orders would be jailed more than those that did the torturing.

[bonobo]

This was from back on 2004. Of course since then Bush admitted he ordered torture.

An e-mail to senior FBI officials released yesterday under a Freedom of Information Act request repeatedly referred to an Executive Order that permitted military interrogators in Iraq to place detainees in painful stress positions, impose sensory deprivation through the use of hoods, intimidate them with military dogs and use other coercive methods.

http://www.hrw.org/n...h-order-torture

So it was hardly secretive and would prefer it if those that actually gave the orders would be jailed more than those that did the torturing.

The problem is that to the best of my knowledge, no one who gave the orders nor who did the torture were punished, much less jailed. It was the military who weren't directly involved with torture who paid the price, albeit not with jail time. But it is easy to point a finger at a person in uniform as they are photographed doing some stupid thing like pointing to an Iraqi man masturbating on command.

And now we have Marines videotaping themselves urinating on dead bodies. One more thing which is stupid, stupid, stupid! It just gives the US and the Marines a bad name, and all for nothing.

[maiphedmaiaroi]

Its not just happening to prisoners but to afgan corpses too.

[coma]

When will these guys learn not to VDO this sort of sh&t??? They deserve to be dealt with severely for plain stupidity alone.

[Ulysses G.]

Pissing on the dead bodies of your enemy is stupid, but it is not "torture".

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been deleted.

[bonobo]

Pissing on the dead bodies of your enemy is stupid, but it is not "torture".

My point exactly. It is very, very stupid, and it damages our cause, but it is not torture.

Slowly drilling a guy to death=torture

Forcing prisoners to form a naked dogpile= humiliation

Urinating on a dead body=lack of respect

All are bad, but only one can really considered to be torture, despite what the press says.

[flying]

We don't know what heads might have rolled within other branches of the government, but in this case, the military, and particularly the Army Reserve and National Guard, took the brunt of the public witch-burning.

What we do know is this....Things like water boarding is facts...Yet after WWII the USA hung Japanese that used the same technique on American prisoners.

As far as I know yes maybe a few heads rolled figuratively but none were dealt with in the same way or with the same gusto that the Japanese who performed such crimes were.

I also do not agree with you saying the Military took the brunt of it.

It does not matter if the CIA, Military or funny little guys with accents provided the torture...It happened under our watch in our prisons.

So it is not the Military that took the brunt of it............No Sir...............It was AMERICA &

We The People resent it

You can no more separate the military or the CIA etc from the body that is America. These goons are acting in our name & on our dime.

They are still OUR employees. As such it is us/America that takes the brunt of it in the eyes of the world.

What once was respected is no longer respected......What we once executed others for we now condone.

There is no point in debating pissing versus some other form of disgusting behavior.... It is bad & not representative

of a once great Nation period.

Edited January 12, 2012 by flying

[Exsexyman]

Pissing on the dead bodies of your enemy is stupid, but it is not "torture".

My point exactly. It is very, very stupid, and it damages our cause, but it is not torture.

Slowly drilling a guy to death=torture

Forcing prisoners to form a naked dogpile= humiliation

Urinating on a dead body=lack of respect

All are bad, but only one can really considered to be torture, despite what the press says.

"Urinating on a dead body=lack of respect". It certainly is that, not to mention lack of self respect. Not very conducive to the stated aims of the US, ie winning the hearts and minds of the Afghani people. Sickening to see and hear that video. Imagine the uproar from the likes of UllyssesG if it were Taliban fighters urinating on the bodies of dead US soldiers. Dont think he would confine his comments to "It was stupid".

[Wallaby]

Pissing on the dead bodies of your enemy is stupid, but it is not "torture".

My point exactly. It is very, very stupid, and it damages our cause, but it is not torture.

Slowly drilling a guy to death=torture

Forcing prisoners to form a naked dogpile= humiliation

Urinating on a dead body=lack of respect

All are bad, but only one can really considered to be torture, despite what the press says.

"Urinating on a dead body=lack of respect". It certainly is that, not to mention lack of self respect. Not very conducive to the stated aims of the US, ie winning the hearts and minds of the Afghani people. Sickening to see and hear that video. Imagine the uproar from the likes of UllyssesG if it were Taliban fighters urinating on the bodies of dead US soldiers. Dont think he would confine his comments to "It was stupid".

Exactly. And I would imagine it would be psychological torture for the families of the deceased to see that being done to the bodies. Could even be torture for the families of the soldiers, just imagine how 'proud' they are.

[Scott]

One post deleted. Let's keep the posts from getting too personal with one another.

[koheesti]

We don't know what heads might have rolled within other branches of the government, but in this case, the military, and particularly the Army Reserve and National Guard, took the brunt of the public witch-burning.

What we do know is this....Things like water boarding is facts...Yet after WWII the USA hung Japanese that used the same technique on American prisoners.

But it wasn't the same.

[koheesti]

When will these guys learn not to VDO this sort of sh&t??? They deserve to be dealt with severely for plain stupidity alone.

Everyone under 35 - including these morons - should know by now that any digital photos or video will likely make it to the Internet - and if outrageous enough on the news. Anyone in the military regardless of rank or age should know that stupid sh*t like this is just going to piss off anger the other side even more resulting in more people taking shots at their own guys. Combine a total lack of decency with being complete morons makes these people too dangerous to those around them not to be locked for a bit before being given a dishonorable discharge.

[Ulysses G.]

"Urinating on a dead body=lack of respect".

Imagine the uproar from the likes of UllyssesG if it were Taliban fighters urinating on the bodies of dead US soldiers. Dont think he would confine his comments to "It was stupid".

Well you are wrong as usual. I could care less if they urinate on dead enemy soldiers in the middle of a war. Drilling a guy to death or cutting someone's head off when they are alive is the kind of thing that gets my goat.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Ulysses G.

[Scott]

This topic is about Abuse of prisoners, not urinating on dead bodies.

Stay on the topic, please.

[Scott]

And another off-topic post has been deleted. Please see the reminder above.