3Rd Teacher Waiver Refusal

[lonexpat]

I, like many others now face the prospect of having to leave Thailand in search of new pastures. For me pesonally, I have been teaching for eight years, with a work permit and I am a single parent. I lack any formal qualifications so I am unable to sit the exams set by the TCT. Now it"s well know that no teacher waiver equals no extension of stay which equals no work permit.Does anyone think any of the following options are feasible.Have the school deal directly with immigration and therefore bypassing the TCT rules. Receiving an extention of stay based on having a child and then applying for a work permit. Going back to the beginning and starting an IGCSE course.Proberly not sufficent but it does show that I"m trying to improve myself which I believe all what all these new changes are for

[aidenai]

I'm sorry to hear about your situation, lonexpat. Already in the early days, talking about 2007, it seemed inevitable to me that the TCT rules set in June 2006 would change.

Have the school deal directly with immigration and therefore bypassing the TCT rules. Receiving an extention of stay based on having a child and then applying for a work permit.

As of 2010 many Labour Offices also require copies of the provisional teaching permit' date=' the teacher license of proof that you are exempt. Therefore, letting your school handle the case with Immigration or having a non-immigrant O (spouse) visa might not work. Further information can be found here under WP.1 and WP.5. http://wp.doe.go.th/en/downloadform

It's reported that The Teachers' Council of Thailand will grant a second or third provisional teaching permit when the applicant can prove that the applicant has sat the Thai Language, Culture and Ethics Course or the TCT Professional Knowledge tests. I haven't heard that provisional teaching permits were granted because the applicant was ongoing in pursuing a university degree or similar.

However, the TCT requirements don't apply to all educational institutions in Thailand. For example, private organisations such as a language schools or universities aren't on the list. The list about to which institutions the TCT Requirements don't apply can be found in the Teachers and Educational Personnel Act BE 2546 (AD 2003). The document can be download here: http://www.ksp.or.th...download/02.pdf

Good luck.

[gosompoi]

Same boat here, denied on my 3rd waiver after 6 years. It has been a major headache. Except I am married so I am extending my visa based on marriage w/ 400,000 at the end of this month. You can do the same based on your child. I can qualify in the future for a TL when I finish the 20 hours of required education and test. I know of a school in my area that pays 27,000 to 32,000 a month cash, no teachers license required, one year contract, 1 year visa extension paid, work permit paid, free house and they give for health insurance you and your children. They need a English teacher right now if you are interested in staying in Thailand and moving to Sisaket. PM me if you want more information.

Edited January 10, 2012 by gosompoi

[aidenai]

I know of a school in my area that pays 27,000 to 32,000 a month cash, no teachers license required, one year contract, 1 year visa extension paid, work permit paid, free house and they give for health insurance you and your children.

They are not the schools that require teachers to have a TCT provisional teaching permit or teacher license but Immigration and or Labour.

[gosompoi]

I know of a school in my area that pays 27,000 to 32,000 a month cash, no teachers license required, one year contract, 1 year visa extension paid, work permit paid, free house and they give for health insurance you and your children.

They are not the schools that require teachers to have a TCT provisional teaching permit or teacher license but Immigration and or Labour.

I think I know what you saying, I do not know how they do it but immigration and the labor dept come to the school and do all the paperwork in one hour. No teachers license just visa extension for 1 year and a work permit. I was offer a job at this school when my work permit expired and they would not renew until I had a teachers license and 3rd provisional teaching permit was denied at my other school. For stability reasons I figured I was better working to get my license and pass on the job which is still available.

[Kilgore Trout]

I lack any formal qualifications

I think this just about says it all.

If you want to work as a teacher in Thailand you must be qualified, the fact that you were allowed to work with out qualifications was luck on your part and now it is over.

I had been receiving free UBC for a year and a half at my condo; the other week the signal stopped. Since I had no right to the service in the first place I have no right to complain about it.

If you want to teach in Thailand, get the proper credentials.

[Mario2008]

As said, if your child is a Thai antional you can get an extension of stay based on your child but will have to show an income of 40,000 a month (can be from abroad) or 400,000 in the bank in Thailand for 2 months.

That would solve any problems with immirgaiton, but not sure about problems with the labour department.

[Fookhaht]

Why don't you teach English in a university? No teacher credentials required.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Fookhaht

[skybluestu]

I lack any formal qualifications

I think this just about says it all.

If you want to work as a teacher in Thailand you must be qualified, the fact that you were allowed to work with out qualifications was luck on your part and now it is over.

I had been receiving free UBC for a year and a half at my condo; the other week the signal stopped. Since I had no right to the service in the first place I have no right to complain about it.

If you want to teach in Thailand, get the proper credentials.

When he started teaching here he probably met the requirements and they have since changed. He could also mean he's not a 'qualified' teacher as in he's not qualified in his home country. Most of the foreign teachers in government & private schools aren't qualified teachers in their home country as those that are work in international schools for double the salary.

There are many excellent teachers with years of teaching experience who are having to leave Thailand (many with families) because of the recent changes in requirements which is ridiculous as the government want Thai students to improve their English skills before 2015. How can they expect this to happen when they are making it more and more difficult for teachers to stay here?!

[aidenai]

There are many excellent teachers with years of teaching experience who are having to leave Thailand (many with families) because of the recent changes in requirements which is ridiculous

I understand what you're saying but I beg to differ. The Teachers' Council of Thailand was formed in 2003. Its announcement about the requirements was launched in June 2006.

If I recall well, the first discussions on Thai Visa, teaching in Thailand, started in 2007. We are now more than 4 years further.

The rules as stated in the TCT June 2006 documents haven't changed. They are still the same.

[skybluestu]

There are many excellent teachers with years of teaching experience who are having to leave Thailand (many with families) because of the recent changes in requirements which is ridiculous

I understand what you're saying but I beg to differ. The Teachers' Council of Thailand was formed in 2003. Its announcement about the requirements was launched in June 2006.

If I recall well, the first discussions on Thai Visa, teaching in Thailand, started in 2007. We are now more than 4 years further.

The rules as stated in the TCT June 2006 documents haven't changed. They are still the same.

I personally know a number of teachers who haven't been informed about the changes in requirements, and there have been many, and neither has the school. Many work in schools in small towns and villages and have been teaching for years with no problem getting their WP renewed and visa extension up until very recently. There have been some who have had their WP and Visa extended without a problem and others who haven't been as lucky. The schools had no notification by anyone at the Ministry of Education or TCT about the Thai Culture Course or TL and the teachers didn't either.

After hearing this I asked recently at the school where I work and my Director said they haven't had any formal notifications either, we only know due to our own research. It is a complete shambles! One day someone without a degree, Culture Course Certificate or TL will get a WP and visa extension and the next day someone who has completed the Culture Course and has a degree but no TL will be refused, and that is at the same office! Teaching experience is very rarely taken into consideration and that is much more important than whether someone spent a few years getting drunk at university 20-30 years ago while doing a degree in Aromatherapy or Equine Management.

[aidenai]

I personally know a number of teachers who haven't been informed about the changes in requirements, and there have been many, and neither has the school. Many work in schools in small towns and villages and have been teaching for years with no problem getting their WP renewed and visa extension up until very recently. There have been some who have had their WP and Visa extended without a problem and others who haven't been as lucky. The schools had no notification by anyone at the Ministry of Education or TCT about the Thai Culture Course or TL and the teachers didn't either.

After hearing this I asked recently at the school where I work and my Director said they haven't had any formal notifications either, we only know due to our own research. It is a complete shambles! One day someone without a degree, Culture Course Certificate or TL will get a WP and visa extension and the next day someone who has completed the Culture Course and has a degree but no TL will be refused, and that is at the same office! Teaching experience is very rarely taken into consideration and that is much more important than whether someone spent a few years getting drunk at university 20-30 years ago while doing a degree in Aromatherapy or Equine Management.

It's very hard to verify whether the Ministry of Education or The Teachers' Council of Thailand was selective in sending the teacher license information to the Educational Service Area Offices and the schools. Especially since the TCT teacher license requirements apply to both Thai and foreign teachers. Obviously, the Thai teachers don't have to sit the culture course. The same applies to information sent to the Immigration Offices nationwide and the Labour Offices. Regarding that, it's reported that even until now, not all Immigration Offices and Labour Offices enforce the rules as written in documents they've produced themselves. I'm taking about Police Order 777/2551 (2008) or Labour TT2 (2010) and TT1 (2011/ 2012).

Whose fault? I don't know.

In our rural province we were ordered in November 2006 to register at The Teachers' Council of Thailand. In April 2008 we couldn't get a extension of stay at Immigration unless we were able to submit the TCT provisional teaching permit. In April 2010 it became mandatory at the Labour Office when renewing the work permit.

Your last sentence about the necessity of having a university degree or not is another discussion and is an inappropriate generalisation.

Moreover, I see you using TL all the time. TL stands for teacher license and that document will be given when you have a university degree plus a certificate of the Thai Language, Culture and Ethics course plus passed the 4 sections of the TCT Professional Knowledge Tests. Not to mention the other routes such as the education degree or foreign teaching credentials.

[Scott]

Part of the problem which is now surfacing is that many people just assumed that the Teacher's Council and it's regulations would dissolve into thin air and things would get back to normal. As a result, many people did little to get themselves legal. The Culture Course was offered everywhere for a time, so many people got a waiver based on the strength of that course alone.

The Teacher's Council is not a political organization, per se. It is a quasi-governmental bureaucratic organization and as such it is not likely to go away and it is not likely to change with the whims of the politicians.

Over the years, there has been a lot of talk about the need for educational reform. There has been a lot of concern about how poorly Thai students do on International exams, as well. Part of the problem is with Teachers who were poorly qualified--and I am talking about Thai Teachers in particular. The Teacher's Council was a part of starting to rectify the problem. The same rules apply to Thai Teachers and Foreign Teachers.

I have a hard time believing any school would not have been informed of the regulations, since they apply to the Thai Teachers.

Foreign Teachers have my greatest sympathy. Many were people who had just seen so many regulations and ideas come and go and just assumed this one would go away as well.

I doubt that it will.

[makavelithedon]

I personally know a number of teachers who haven't been informed about the changes in requirements, and there have been many, and neither has the school. Many work in schools in small towns and villages and have been teaching for years with no problem getting their WP renewed and visa extension up until very recently. There have been some who have had their WP and Visa extended without a problem and others who haven't been as lucky. The schools had no notification by anyone at the Ministry of Education or TCT about the Thai Culture Course or TL and the teachers didn't either.

After hearing this I asked recently at the school where I work and my Director said they haven't had any formal notifications either, we only know due to our own research. It is a complete shambles! One day someone without a degree, Culture Course Certificate or TL will get a WP and visa extension and the next day someone who has completed the Culture Course and has a degree but no TL will be refused, and that is at the same office! Teaching experience is very rarely taken into consideration and that is much more important than whether someone spent a few years getting drunk at university 20-30 years ago while doing a degree in Aromatherapy or Equine Management.

It's very hard to verify whether the Ministry of Education or The Teachers' Council of Thailand was selective in sending the teacher license information to the Educational Service Area Offices and the schools. Especially since the TCT teacher license requirements apply to both Thai and foreign teachers. Obviously, the Thai teachers don't have to sit the culture course. The same applies to information sent to the Immigration Offices nationwide and the Labour Offices. Regarding that, it's reported that even until now, not all Immigration Offices and Labour Offices enforce the rules as written in documents they've produced themselves. I'm taking about Police Order 777/2551 (2008) or Labour TT2 (2010) and TT1 (2011/ 2012).

Whose fault? I don't know.

In our rural province we were ordered in November 2006 to register at The Teachers' Council of Thailand. In April 2008 we couldn't get a extension of stay at Immigration unless we were able to submit the TCT provisional teaching permit. In April 2010 it became mandatory at the Labour Office when renewing the work permit.

Your last sentence about the necessity of having a university degree or not is another discussion and is an inappropriate generalisation.

Moreover, I see you using TL all the time. TL stands for teacher license and that document will be given when you have a university degree plus a certificate of the Thai Language, Culture and Ethics course plus passed the 4 sections of the TCT Professional Knowledge Tests. Not to mention the other routes such as the education degree or foreign teaching credentials.

Your posts in this topic Aidenai appear exactly the same.

A chap asks for advice on a predicament that quite a few TEFL teachers with a wealth of experience will face shortly including a couple I know. I fail to see anything you have posted in this thread as remotely helpful. Just banging the same 'traffic warden' like drum.

I will follow this so I can perhaps help those I know. Hopefully posts will be made of a more positive and helpful nature by some other members.

Edited January 12, 2012 by makavelithedon

[lonexpat]

Kilgore Trout. Charles Dickens didn"t have a degree in English literature, does that mean he couldn"t write? Not being a qualified English teacher obviously means there are many areas of teaching and child psychology which I don"t understand. As Skybluestu pointed out I was employed as an EFL teacher. Having done a tefl course and a Thai language course I was perfectly qualified at the time.

Edited January 12, 2012 by 7by7
Flame removed

[Kilgore Trout]

Kilgore Trout. Charles Dickens didn"t have a degree in English literature, does that mean he couldn"t write? Not being a qualified English teacher obviously means there are many areas of teaching and child psychology which I don"t understand. As Skybluestu pointed out I was employed as an EFL teacher. Having done a tefl course and a Thai language course I was perfectly qualified at the time.

I will stick to my point; if you are not qualified to get a work permit then you shouldn't complain about not being granted one.

Edited January 12, 2012 by 7by7
Quote edited to remove flame and a now irrelevant comment removed.

[makavelithedon]

Apologies Aidenai,

Scrolling through quickly I incorrectly read your name for another member who without wanting to resort to the same pathetic and unhelpful comments I mistook for you.

Hopefully as already stated, someone else with something positive will comment. There seems very little information at present probably due to all schools who may have staff in this dilemma not having even considered it.

[Firelily]

Trout - my school applied for a licence on my behalf in August 2008. I have a Master's degree in TEFL. I still haven't received it and neither has anyone else in the same batch. If for some reason immigration and the labour dept decide not to extend my visa and WP any longer, whose fault is it going to be?

Edited January 12, 2012 by Firelily

[haltes]

Teaching experience is very rarely taken into consideration and that is much more important than whether someone spent a few years getting drunk at university 20-30 years ago while doing a degree in Aromatherapy or Equine Management.

While there is some drinking and partying at university, that is not all that goes on while people study there. Students actually spend 3 - 4 years learning things and it is a reasonable expectation that teachers have a reasonable level of education. I don't know anyone who did a degree in "Aromatherapy or Equine Management"

The fact is that the levels of education and teaching in Thailand are dire (and are shown in international tests) and that is due to the fact that Thai teachers are not very well trained and also because they will accept any white face to teach English. This overall yields very poor results.

For the OP, you will need to get some qualifications and get on the right track in order to get qualified if you still wish to be a teacher moving into the future. Whether you like it or not, if you want to teach in a school, you need to start getting the proper pieces of paper, Failing that you can work for a private language school.

I would advise you contact the exam boards in the UK and get the books to study for the qualifications you need, You can take IGCSEs and A Levels at the British Council or at one of the international schools so that then you could do a degree with the Open University of the University of London International Programme.

I would guess you would need:

GCSE passes in English and Maths

2 A Levels at C and above

Then you can apply for a degree

[lonexpat]

Thanks to everyone whose postings have been positive.

[Scott]

One inflammatory post has been deleted. Further personal attacks and off-topic comments will earn a suspension of posting rights for a time. Please stay on the topic.

To the OP, I am not sure what you expect posters to say. People offer you advice based on their knowledge, understanding and experience, which you don't seem to like.

If you sign up for an internet based university course or do something that shows an attempt to get legal, perhaps they will grant your 3 rd waiver. You may face the problem of needing another waiver in 2 years, however and it is my understanding they only grant 3 waivers. I believe that time-wise, we are at the point where the earliest group has used up the waivers.

[aidenai]

Trout - my school applied for a licence on my behalf in August 2008. I have a Master's degree in TEFL. I still haven't received it and neither has anyone else in the same batch. If for some reason immigration and the labour dept decide not to extend my visa and WP any longer, whose fault is it going to be?

When your ID doesn't give any match on here, http://www.ksp.or.th...nse_status.php? Please let your Thai colleagues have a look into this.

Thanks to everyone whose postings have been positive.

Reading through the replies of several members, I guess it's better for me to refrain from any further posts. I only tried to help other members, with concrete information opposed to thoughts, feelings and speculations, who currently are facing problems and yes, I do have a degree and yes, I sat the Thai Language, Culture and Ethics Course and yes, I passed the four sections of the TCT Professional Knowledge Tests and yes, I have a TCT teacher license.

Time to log out, now.

[haltes]

I think it is good advice to get yourself onto a degree course.

FYI to get onto a degree course with the University of London:

General entrance requirements EITHER passes in:

Two subjects at GCE ‘A’ level + at least

three further subjects at GCSE or GCE ‘O’ level (at not less than grade C or a ‘pass’ if taken prior to 1975)

OR three subjects at GCE ‘A’ level (with one ‘A’ level at not less than grade D)

OR three subjects at GCE ‘A’ level + one further subject at GCSE or GCE ‘O’ level (at not less than grade C)

OR two subjects at GCE ‘A’ level + two further subjects at ‘AS’ level.

[Scott]

We have a number of teachers for whom we anticipate they will be granted a waiver (they're not on the 3rd waiver yet) with on-line courses. All of them have degrees, but not in education.

I don't know what the TC will do about teachers who are pursuing an entire 4 year degree. In your case, it would probably be wise to pursue the O visa if you are caring for your child. If that's possible, it might make staying here easier than being dependent on the Teacher's License-Work Permit connection.

A lot of Universities are more lenient with regards to accepting students, I think, in regards to allowing for signing up for an on-line course(s) than they are for regular classes.

[lonexpat]

First of all I would like to apologize for any offence my comments may have caused, I appreciate all the advive and expertize that other members have given me. Like I said, I was employed as an EFL teacher for which I have the appropriate qualification. Or did have at the time. I didn"t find Mr.Trouts comments as being advice, which was being sought-after.More of an attack on me because in his opinion without a degree I have no right to be teaching. Had this have been my first year I may well have agreed. But after 8 years it was a bit too abrupt. Again.Thanks to all .Especially Aidenal and Haltes.

[NanLaew]

Does teaching by a foreigner in Thailand have no access to the usual 'enabler' in Thailand, namely the bung, the back-hander, the money under the table? Or has all this foreign involvement in education resulted in a field of work in Thailand that is uniquely graft-free?

[Yooyung]

To the OP

I was in a similar situation to you so understand your worries. I however saw all this coming back in 2007ish and decided (eventually in 2010) to head on back to Aus with my wife (Thai) and son to work toward a degree.

I taught in Thailand from 2001 to 2010 without a degree. To start with it wasnt a problem even though I was aware back then that to teach legally a degree was expected. I got around all the blocks that were put in my way and ended up teaching on a Non immigrant O visa. This situation was ok for a while but then my son was born and I really started to stress out about being under the radar all the time. I enjoyed living and teaching in Thailand and got really sick of constantly worrying about the fact that I didnt have that peice of paper. I had a son and wanted to do the right thing for myself and for Thailand.

Fast forward to today and I am back here in Aus serving my sentence for my past sins living in a small country town and studying for a Bachelor degree. Its been a real journey to get back here but its all working out pretty well. I am in my last year now and hope to be back over there sometime in mid 2013.

Others may not care or worry too much about the new regs and are perhaps happy enough to try their luck, doing endless border runs, pretending to study Thai or whatever but I think eventually doors will close and not be reopened. I think if you are serious about wanting to live in Thailand for an extended period, take care of your child and use english teaching as a means to an end then you should at least make an effort to become legal. I started noticing my teaching options shrinking toward the end. I couldnt play the game anymore.

Thailand will no doubt throw other curly ones at me when I get back but having a legitimate bachelor degree will make me feel a whole hell of a lot better. You, like me have the experience but unfortunately that little piece of paper is missing.

Goodluck with whatever you decide.

[lonexpat]

Excellent post. I"m glad that you made the right decision for you and your family. I, on the other hand have not been so selective about the decisions I"ve made. The whole point about my posts are not that I can"t except the fact that now I"m not legally excepted as being a teacher. although this should have been pointed out from the beginning, but about not wanting my daughter to be brought up in London. I"m 48 years old, so, although I"m quiet happy to study or take any exam put in front of me my level of qualifications and age will always be a hindrence. Through my own niavety I never considered starting from the beginning when these new regulations were introduced by the TCT. I remember when I was younger being told I couldn"t do a certain job because I didn"t have a degree in mathamatics. Within two years I was doing the job I had dreamt about since I was twelve. And at a standard higher than most. Considering the stress this problem is causing not only myself but others like me I still feel quite positive. Only time will tell wheather it"s misplaced positivity. My best wishes goes out to everyone currently experience the same dilemma as I am. PS. ignore the fish man!

[Firelily]

Thanks Aidenai, will definitely give it a try.

[inzman]

Is the TL waived for the first two years?