Forget Gay Marriage; We've More Important Things To Do: Thai Opinion

[webfact]

STOPPAGE TIME

Forget gay marriage; we've more important things to do

Tulsathit Taptim

The front-page photo of an all-smiles gay marriage in Trang reminded me of an uneventful, yet heartfelt scene I witnessed at a coffee shop two weeks ago.

There was a male couple, apparently in their thirties, squeezing together at a nearby table, giggling over their smoothies and computer tablet content. That was all, but they must have wanted to freeze the moment. You would want to do it for them.

Those four men must be like most homosexuals I know, people whose "happiness" focuses on the present and, when it comes to the "ever after" part, they just wish for the best and fear the worst. In many cases you are lucky to be able to wish for the best at all. A lot of gay people stay firmly with the present, and their only wish about the future is that it never comes.

I'm not here to argue for or against gay union. The debate is getting nowhere. There are millions of website entries on this sometimes bitter showdown but they revolve around just a few things - a moral slippery slope, human rights, legal rights, the (in)ability to procreate, adopted children's orientation. You know, that sort of thing. Some say we've come a long way already from the time when women couldn't even vote, and the next step could be a moral tipping point. Others simply say, "Look around you. How can you deny the existence of something that is very much there?"

I'm for the debate to get somewhere. Currently, we are struck. Which is a shame, because while legislative moves or legal campaigns featuring abstract values are vehemently prioritised, everyone keeps the issue of gay rights at arm's length. What's more important - a man's right not to stand up where anybody else does, or another man's right to put the name of the man he loves in his insurance policy?

Don't be fooled by the "openness" in Trang. Thailand is as homophobic as they come. Gay movies face big censorship risks; politicians (some of whom call themselves "freedom fighters") use allegations of "closet activities" to attack their enemies; public figures have to live double lives if they are gay; and until very recently being effeminate was a "mental illness" in military conscription records.

We have seen activists proclaiming a readiness to die for somebody's right to draw demeaning caricatures, but we have never seen a real push for the same tax privileges as normal couples for gay spouses. "Human rights" have to be political in Thailand. Anything less, and off they go to the backburner. Children's rights or women's rights are not as urgent as the "injustice" suffered by politicians who have cheated and got caught.

We willingly give people the right to hate. We always fight for that right; if not for ourselves, it will be for others. We even try to make the right universal. When the right is not given, we consider it the most scandalous thing in the world. Where love is concerned, it appears okay to narrow down the list of who can (legally) love and who cannot.

It's funny just to think of it. In England, a footballer who's just above twenty is being pilloried for uttering allegedly racist words against a coloured player. The world of "equality" is falling apart because of what he said in the heat of the moment on the soccer pitch. In a survey released last year, more than half of Britons sampled believe that homosexual marriages should not be allowed, and two thirds think the adoption of children by same-sex couples should not have become legal nine years ago.

The Trang couple does not want to send these messages, obviously. Gays as a political movement must do a lot more than just pose for the cameras and smile those happy smiles. The couple has chosen a brave, yet unprovocative path. But silent as it may seem, we heard from them, their parents and their community loud and clear all the same.

To get their photos on the front pages and disseminated on Facebook, along with positive captions or encouraging comments, is a little victory in itself. A real triumph, however, must showcase a totally different scenario. That triumph is the day of "total silence" - when same-sex marriages are not reported or tweeted about and don't have to be mentioned on Facebook because they are something so normal.

Of course, my gay friends will likely say, "You are dreaming." With the way things are, who am I to argue with them?

-- The Nation 2012-01-11

[Jingthing]

Don't be fooled by the "openness" in Trang. Thailand is as homophobic as they come. Gay movies face big censorship risks; politicians (some of whom call themselves "freedom fighters") use allegations of "closet activities" to attack their enemies; public figures have to live double lives if they are gay; and until very recently being effeminate was a "mental illness" in military conscription records.

Thank you! Like I have been saying for a long time, expat rose colored glasses romanticizing of quaint "traditional Thai values" massive anti-gay oppression notwithstanding!

Edited January 10, 2012 by Jingthing

[endure]

Don't be fooled by the "openness" in Trang. Thailand is as homophobic as they come. Gay movies face big censorship risks; politicians (some of whom call themselves "freedom fighters") use allegations of "closet activities" to attack their enemies; public figures have to live double lives if they are gay; and until very recently being effeminate was a "mental illness" in military conscription records.

Thank you! Like I have been saying for a long time, expat rose colored glasses romanticizing of quaint "traditional Thai values" massive anti-gay oppression notwithstanding!

Does a regular contributor to a major English language newspaper in Bangkok have any gay friends in Isaan? or Nakhon Sawan? or Phitsanulok? Do you speak Thai? Do you have any Thai gay friends? Are you really qualified to talk about 'massive anti-gay oppression' without even being to talk the language? You speak of 'expat rose colored glasses' as though you're some sort of expat expert.

Given the choice would you rather be gay in Missoula or Pattaya?

[Jingthing]

Predictable denial. This isn't about me, dear. It's about a Thai gay man speaking the truth. I can't explain why you don't see it.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Jingthing

[endure]

Predictable denial. This isn't about me, dear. It's about a Thai gay man speaking the truth.

Predictable avoidance. Answer the questions.

BTW is Tulsathit Taptim gay? Evidence?

[endure]

Predictable denial. This isn't about me, dear. It's about a Thai gay man speaking the truth. I can't explain why you don't see it.

I'm not attacking you - I'm disagreeing with you. Can't you tell the difference?

[Jingthing]

Predictable denial. This isn't about me, dear. It's about a Thai gay man speaking the truth.

Predictable avoidance. Answer the questions.

BTW is Tulsathit Taptim gay? Evidence?

I refuse to play into your sleazy tactics of trying to personalize this. My position has been vindicated from your unending attacks by this editorial.

[DP25]

Don't be fooled by the "openness" in Trang. Thailand is as homophobic as they come.

Has this guy ever left Thailand?

In most of the world, the openly gay people you see everywhere in Thailad would face physical danger. Even in the US gays face open hostility, harrassment, and even physical danger in places. Don't even get started on ladyboys, who outside of Thailand face physical danger on a daily basis almost everywhere

Gay movies face big censorship risks

ALL movies face big censorship risks in Thailand. Everyone has to struggle with the censors to get their movie released in Thailand. There are a lot of movies with gay themes being put out in Thailand, far more for it's size than anywhere I've heard of.

While I'm in favor of gay marriage I can understand why there is not more of a push for it. Many/most straight marriages don't even bother to register their marriage, a temple ceremony is all that is required to be considered culturally married and gay men already do this. For foreign men of course this is a big issue because they lack the immigration benefits that striaght foriegners get through marraige.

But overall culturaly this is the least homophobic society I've ever seen, although certainly room for improvement.

That triumph is the day of "total silence" - when same-sex marriages are not reported or tweeted about and don't have to be mentioned on Facebook because they are something so normal.

Those kind of marriages are already so common that I didn't understand why it was being reported on in the first place. Gay couple have temple ceremony, how is that news? I think just because it involved facebook

Edited January 11, 2012 by DP25

[Jingthing]

Correction: I don't actually know whether the Thai editorial writer is gay or not. He doesn't say so explicitly and I suppose saying he is when he isn't could be considered libel in Thailand (that should tell you something). So I retract calling him gay.

Thai homophobia takes different forms than Anglo culture homophobia. That doesn't mean it isn't just as real but maybe that blinds some people from Anglo cultures from seeing it. Thai gay people see it and live it.

Cheers.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Jingthing

[Reasonableman]

During a recent visit to Burma/Myanmar, it was difficult to avoid comparing various aspects of the Burmese and Thai cultures. While gayness in Thailand is mostly open and well-tolerated, even promoted, as a social norm, in Burma it is far more low-key and apparently, at least, far less common. Burmese society appears to be very predominantly heterosexual, with clear and traditional male/female gender roles. I wondered why the apparent contrast was so powerful. No judgments, just observations.

[Jingthing]

Burma was a British colony.

[Reasonableman]

Burma was a British colony.

Meaning what? So were many others.

[SunDaRi]

I thought the article was alright although its important to remember, gays are really doing okay with the majority of the population - most people who have a problem with it are probably the high-so folks.

I am openly gay locally, asian, speak thai fluently and am obvious gay to all - never felt much discrimination before.

[laurentbkk]

Well ,in a city like Bangkok where its a nightmare to organize a Gay pride as in many other capitals around the world , the different governments or Bangkok city hall never really show how interested they could be in such event , there have been some gay pride in Bangkok but roads was still open to traffic ,not easy to walk when surrounded by cars. That's only an example .. Usually people really dont mind about gay unless one member of their family come out of the closet ... life for gays in Bangkok is better than many cities such as Moscow , Riyadh , Beijing or even pyong yang . There are still a lot of way to go for a total recognition of the gays around the world ... even in the mid west USA people are more narrow minded than Thailand .

[catmac]

I thought the article was alright although its important to remember, gays are really doing okay with the majority of the population - most people who have a problem with it are probably the high-so folks.

I am openly gay locally, asian, speak thai fluently and am obvious gay to all - never felt much discrimination before.

Thanks, SunDaRi. It's good to hear from a "local" as opposed to a Farang viewpoint.

I can only say that I've been living here with my Thai b/f for the last 8 years, and I've never encountered any hostility from the locals, but then we lead fairly normal lives and I don't try to ram my own political agenda down their throats, or demand that they change their laws to suit me.

[alexakap]

That was all, but they must have wanted to freeze the moment. You would want to do it for them.

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them" Lev. 20:13

"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, ²⁷and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. ²⁸And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper." Rom. 1:26-28

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk." Qur'an 26:165

"Kill the one who sodomizes and the one who lets if be done to him." (Tirmidhi, a sahih (authentic) hadith)

"I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from sexual misconduct" (Lord Buddha)

In Thailand, traditional accounts propose that "homosexuality arises as a karmic consequence of violating Buddhist proscriptions against heterosexual misconduct. These karmic accounts describe homosexuality as a congenital condition which cannot be altered, at least in a homosexual person's current lifetime (http://en.wikipedia....uality#Buddhism)

The Dalai Lama ... commented that all forms of sex other than penile-vaginal sex are prohibited for Buddhists, whether between heterosexuals or homosexuals. At a press conference the day before the meeting, he said, "From a Buddhist point of view, [gay sex] is generally considered sexual misconduct." (http://www.religionf...ty/buddhism.htm)

Should I copy-paste more?

Edited January 11, 2012 by alexakap

[Rusty2009]

gay or hetro?, monogamous or promiscuous, love or lust, happy or unhappy, so if we read all the holly books correctly, and listen to what the wise and clever people are saying, is that all gay people will be damned for trying to find somebody we would like to spend the rest of our lives with, is this not what these two guys are trying to do?

[alexakap]

gay or hetro?, monogamous or promiscuous, love or lust, happy or unhappy, so if we read all the holly books correctly, and listen to what the wise and clever people are saying, is that all gay people will be damned for trying to find somebody we would like to spend the rest of our lives with, is this not what these two guys are trying to do?

Monogamous couples are childless (speaking about monodelphs aka higher mammals). Nature protects itself well from such of genetic perversions. You still able to "spend your life with someone", but your genes (and abilities of "spending your life with") will never be passed to your descendants and become a dead end of the evolution yet regardless any Holy Books or forum threads or human-made laws or whatever.

I am sorry, but you can't ousmart the Mother Nature by your rhetoric abilities.

PS: and the above picture is so offensive. I want to vomit.

[Jingthing]

...

PS: and the above picture is so offensive. I want to vomit.

Yet another proponent of the politics of disgust. Well done.

BTW, lesbians tend to have children quite a lot and sometimes use the sperm of their gay male friends. Drats! Modern science attack on archaic fundamentalists, what will they think of next?

Edited January 11, 2012 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

...

In Thailand, traditional accounts propose that "homosexuality arises as a karmic consequence of violating Buddhist proscriptions against heterosexual misconduct. These karmic accounts describe homosexuality as a congenital condition which cannot be altered, at least in a homosexual person's current lifetime (http://en.wikipedia....uality#Buddhism)

...

Should I copy-paste more?

No, sir, you should not. Quite enough.

However, The Thai Buddhist quote is of course relevant to Thailand, and can explain some of the attitudes here behind homosexuality as a result of bad karma, similar I think to the weird attitudes of handicapped people. OK, weird to westerners.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Jingthing

[DocN]

That was all, but they must have wanted to freeze the moment. You would want to do it for them.

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them" Lev. 20:13

"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, ²⁷and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. ²⁸And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper." Rom. 1:26-28

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk." Qur'an 26:165

"Kill the one who sodomizes and the one who lets if be done to him." (Tirmidhi, a sahih (authentic) hadith)

"I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from sexual misconduct" (Lord Buddha)

In Thailand, traditional accounts propose that "homosexuality arises as a karmic consequence of violating Buddhist proscriptions against heterosexual misconduct. These karmic accounts describe homosexuality as a congenital condition which cannot be altered, at least in a homosexual person's current lifetime (http://en.wikipedia....uality#Buddhism)

The Dalai Lama ... commented that all forms of sex other than penile-vaginal sex are prohibited for Buddhists, whether between heterosexuals or homosexuals. At a press conference the day before the meeting, he said, "From a Buddhist point of view, [gay sex] is generally considered sexual misconduct." (http://www.religionf...ty/buddhism.htm)

Should I copy-paste more?

...only if you tell, what TF you want to say by that?!

[samtam]

There was a male couple, apparently in their thirties, squeezing together at a nearby table, giggling over their smoothies and computer tablet content. That was all, but they must have wanted to freeze the moment. You would want to do it for them.

Those four men must be like most homosexuals I know, people whose "happiness" focuses on the present

How does a gay couple become four men? Perhaps it's part of the deviancy of being gay - they morph?

Glad this isn't in the "Gay people in Thailand" forum, considering it's not about crossdressing.

[Jingthing]

There was a male couple, apparently in their thirties, squeezing together at a nearby table, giggling over their smoothies and computer tablet content. That was all, but they must have wanted to freeze the moment. You would want to do it for them.

Those four men must be like most homosexuals I know, people whose "happiness" focuses on the present

How does a gay couple become four men? Perhaps it's part of the deviancy of being gay - they morph?

Glad this isn't in the "Gay people in Thailand" forum, considering it's not about crossdressing.

I think you need to read the previous paragraph which refers to the happy "married" couple, so you add them, that is two, to the two in the coffee shop, and let's rack our brains, now, OK ... 2 + 2 = 4. Edited January 11, 2012 by Jingthing

[Rusty2009]

gay or hetro?, monogamous or promiscuous, love or lust, happy or unhappy, so if we read all the holly books correctly, and listen to what the wise and clever people are saying, is that all gay people will be damned for trying to find somebody we would like to spend the rest of our lives with, is this not what these two guys are trying to do?

Monogamous couples are childless (speaking about monodelphs aka higher mammals). Nature protects itself well from such of genetic perversions. You still able to "spend your life with someone", but your genes (and abilities of "spending your life with") will never be passed to your descendants and become a dead end of the evolution yet regardless any Holy Books or forum threads or human-made laws or whatever.

I am sorry, but you can't ousmart the Mother Nature by your rhetoric abilities.

PS: and the above picture is so offensive. I want to vomit.

I have four kids, three grand kids soon to be four in March, was married for what seemed to be 10 life times,hetro, so i think my days of sewing wild seeds are over and done with.

I have never been happier, than when i am with my TS girlfriend in Thailand we go hand in hand everywhere, we can sit openly together in resturants and cafes, sometimes we show signs of affection by kissing in the street and nobody makes a comment or batters an eyelid, gladly send you a pic if you would like?

[Jingthing]

That was all, but they must have wanted to freeze the moment. You would want to do it for them.

"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them" Lev. 20:13

"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, ²⁷and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. ²⁸And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper." Rom. 1:26-28

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk." Qur'an 26:165

"Kill the one who sodomizes and the one who lets if be done to him." (Tirmidhi, a sahih (authentic) hadith)

"I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from sexual misconduct" (Lord Buddha)

In Thailand, traditional accounts propose that "homosexuality arises as a karmic consequence of violating Buddhist proscriptions against heterosexual misconduct. These karmic accounts describe homosexuality as a congenital condition which cannot be altered, at least in a homosexual person's current lifetime (http://en.wikipedia....uality#Buddhism)

The Dalai Lama ... commented that all forms of sex other than penile-vaginal sex are prohibited for Buddhists, whether between heterosexuals or homosexuals. At a press conference the day before the meeting, he said, "From a Buddhist point of view, [gay sex] is generally considered sexual misconduct." (http://www.religionf...ty/buddhism.htm)

Should I copy-paste more?

...only if you tell, what TF you want to say by that?!

He wants to say that hatred and oppression of gays is justified by all the major world religions. He is right about that. It isn't news. Edited January 11, 2012 by Jingthing

[DP25]

In Thailand, traditional accounts propose that "homosexuality arises as a karmic consequence of violating Buddhist proscriptions against heterosexual misconduct. These karmic accounts describe homosexuality as a congenital condition which cannot be altered, at least in a homosexual person's current lifetime (http://en.wikipedia....uality#Buddhism)

Interesting you stopped the quote where you did, and left out "and have been linked with calls for compassion and understanding from the non-homosexual populace."

[Jingthing]

gay or hetro?, monogamous or promiscuous, love or lust, happy or unhappy, so if we read all the holly books correctly, and listen to what the wise and clever people are saying, is that all gay people will be damned for trying to find somebody we would like to spend the rest of our lives with, is this not what these two guys are trying to do?

Monogamous couples are childless (speaking about monodelphs aka higher mammals). Nature protects itself well from such of genetic perversions. You still able to "spend your life with someone", but your genes (and abilities of "spending your life with") will never be passed to your descendants and become a dead end of the evolution yet regardless any Holy Books or forum threads or human-made laws or whatever.

I am sorry, but you can't ousmart the Mother Nature by your rhetoric abilities.

PS: and the above picture is so offensive. I want to vomit.

I have four kids, three grand kids soon to be four in March, was married for what seemed to be 10 life times,hetro, so i think my days of sewing wild seeds are over and done with.

I have never been happier, than when i am with my TS girlfriend in Thailand we go hand in hand everywhere, we can sit openly together in resturants and cafes, sometimes we show signs of affection by kissing in the street and nobody makes a comment or batters an eyelid, gladly send you a pic if you would like?

Try being two bearded MEN kissing in public in Thailand, just for a test. Not saying I approve of crass PDAs anywhere ... just saying.

[Jingthing]

In Thailand, traditional accounts propose that "homosexuality arises as a karmic consequence of violating Buddhist proscriptions against heterosexual misconduct. These karmic accounts describe homosexuality as a congenital condition which cannot be altered, at least in a homosexual person's current lifetime (http://en.wikipedia....uality#Buddhism)

Interesting you stopped the quote where you did, and left out "and have been linked with calls for compassion and understanding from the non-homosexual populace."

In the context of thinking of gay people as living out an unfortunate fate that they brought on themselves in another life. Would you feel comfortable about your society thinking that about you for a condition you did nothing to create? At best, you get TOLERANCE with that kind of social attitude. You don't get equality. Do people seriously think it just a COINCIDENCE that TS people in Thailand are massively concentrated in the same kinds of professions the oppressed TS people of Pakistan are: singing, dancing, prostituting, and here sorry it is true, thieving rather than begging. In Pakistan their begging is viewed as thieving because people there believe if they don't give something that TS people have the power to put strong curses on them. Thailand strongly proscribes these limited roles through social pressure. If that isn't oppression, I don't like lox and bagels. Edited January 11, 2012 by Jingthing

[DP25]

Correction: I don't actually know whether the Thai editorial writer is gay or not. He doesn't say so explicitly and I suppose saying he is when he isn't could be considered libel in Thailand (that should tell you something). So I retract calling him gay.

Doesn't really tell you anything, almost anything said publicly can be libelous in Thailand if the individual you say it about doesn't want it to be said. Even if it's true it can be libelous.

[alexakap]

Drats! Modern science attack on archaic fundamentalists, what will they think of next?

Modern science opens the doors to bypass the natural selection - and to pass the sudden sick/bad/corrupted genetic sets to descendants as a defaults (while these sets were scheduled to disappear within one generation just to keep the whole breed stronger and more adaptive). Read "mutations", educate yourself.

PS: Note the huge increase of genetic sicknesses during the last century (the boom of "modern science" at the same time). The answer is simple: once corrupted the genes not disappeared (as it normally happens IRL) - but being kept alive, and transferred to the children as default gene sets (read "heredity").

PPS: in natural life, lesbians "will NEVER tend to have children quite a lot and sometimes use the sperm of their gay male friends. Drats!" Game over just in one step.

PPPS: Im not against modern science - Im against "men playing Gods".