How Do You Cope/Plan To Cope In Thailand When 70+

[ExpatOilWorker]

good business idea.. retirement home for farangs.

Home? They have a city. It is called Pattaya.

Correction, it is called Chiang Mai.

[rgs2001uk]

Some may be confusing suicide and euthanasia.

I sure as heck dont want to be in a hospital bed in a vegetative state for years, being pumped full of morphine to dull the pain or other drugs to keep me artificially alive.

I certainly dont need religious people to decide whats best for me or my family.

I have made my wishes perfectly clear to my wife and family.

[oldsailor35]

Sorry, when I said ‘retirement homes’ what I really meant was ‘homes for retirees’ of which there are several scattered around Thailand. I suppose another term might be ‘sheltered housing’ or even ‘senior’ housing projects, such as the kind that have proliferated in places like Florida.

What I have seen here, and what I was also considering investing in, were compact, bungalow type accommodation or two floor condo type developments which are specifically designed for sale or lease to retirees, both single and married couples. All the projects I viewed were owned and operated by Scandinavians.

The living accommodation is self-contained with their own kitchens etc, and there are communal facilities such as a swimming pools, exercise and games rooms, shops and cafés, along with a resident nurse, maintenance warden and first aid facilities.

Transport is provided to take residents shopping and further afield (at a fee, of course) and the places are strategically located within 30 minutes or less drive of a provincial hospital.

These places seem to cater mainly for retirees who have never lived in Thailand before and therefore need a high level of local guidance and support to help them get out and about in Thailand.

For those who have money, and have some experience of living here, there is no reason why they can’t enjoy life in their own homes and rely on their Thai wives and/or paid carers to do whatever may be necessary. It is no different to living in any country, except that in Thailand they will have to pay for all their medical treatment, whereas in their home country, it may be free.

Indeed, the cost of having you own carer will be considerable cheaper here than in the west, as will the overall cost of living. So provided your medical expenses are not ridiculously high, it could even be cheaper for those who are still in good physical shape to live here rather than in their home country.

If, and when you become very sick and infirm, then provided you still have money, you can still be cared for here, just as well – if not better – than you can back home.

And if euthanasia is your preferred way to go, I think you will find even that easier to carry out here than back home….

So all in all, I don’t see the problem – provided you have the necessary funds.

For those farangs on limited pensions and/or income and have no emergency ‘nest egg’ to fall back on, I would venture to suggest that Thailand is not the best of places to grow old and die.

I just want to find a a retirement home where they don't have women, only naked pole dancers on pension day, with a "pop off" trolley near the door for those who did not make it to the end of the show.

[hellodolly]

Yes, I do believe it's a cowardly choice, as the person does not want to deal with the problems at hand but wants to take the easy way out.

What if one is deaf, dumb, blind, paralized and in severe pain all of the time? There are people in unbearable circumstances whose every monent is a living hell. Who could blame them for taking the "easy" way out?

For my self suicide is not a option. If I get that bad I will not try to fight the disease just lay back and let it take me. At my age a serious disease would not take long especial if you just let it have it's way.

[KeyserSoze01]

There is a fine line between suicide and euthanasia. To kill oneself over stress, depression, emotional issues, etc as a way to escape the pain is one thing, but to pull the plug due to terminal illness or being incapacitated where your quality of life becomes nil is another issue. I have made it clear to my emergency contacts that I do not wish to be resuscitated or keep alive on a respirator if there is little or no chance of recovery. Neither do I wish to linger on for years with debilitating conditions that reduce my quality of life to where I am just existing. I am at peace with myself and could check out tomorrow with no regrets. There comes a time in everyone's life when they no longer have control over their faculties, so you must make your wishes known, lest your existence is subject to someone else's values. I would like leave this life with some dignity and not as a slobbering vegetable.

[necronx99]

Yes, I do believe it's a cowardly choice, as the person does not want to deal with the problems at hand but wants to take the easy way out.

What if one is deaf, dumb, blind, paralized and in severe pain all of the time? There are people in unbearable circumstances whose every monent is a living hell. Who could blame them for taking the "easy" way out?

I don't consider it easy at all. Provided you were of sound mind it would I think take great courage and conviction.

Like anything, there are situations where many would think it was silly, or a co out. There are others such as you outline, where your quality of life has diminished to an unacceptable level where hanging on, or being kept alive is vain, selfish or cruel. Both to yourself and the family.

It's easy to say without being there, but I sincerely hope I am brave enough if it comes to that.

I also hope my Evapatorium idea is up and running by then.

Edited January 26, 2012 by necronx99

[TheKeeNok]

I will just hope for the best as I have always done. There is a place for old farangs to stay when they can not take care of themselves in Chiang Mai that is getting good reports and it is not too expensive, so that is always an option.

There are so many reporte and many more unreported cases of nursing home abuse in the west. Do you think itwill be any better in LOS? Ive taken a look online at the CM home. It seems to be locatedin someisolated area. If ur immobile, shitiing and pissin ur bed with bed sores the si\e if plates do u think they willcare? I saw that poor dude in bed with some"nurse" if a |frresh" uniform "takin his bp". It seemed totally staged. One would have serious concerns about how one would be treated once the doors are closed andthe curtians drawn.

Many ppl in LOS don t seem to makeit out of theri 60's? Is that ture? I have noticed a lot of reports of60ish folks checkin out in Pattaya.

You know, checkin out in LOS is not so bad. the fact that life in LOS kinda feels like living in La La land helps!

[TheKeeNok]

Not surprisingly many here say they will opt out if the time comes.

I'm 75 and have no intention whatsoever to do just that, maybe because I believe it to be a cowardly act.

I have no intention of suicide either, but I can see why someone who can not take care of themselves would consider it and I do not think that it is cowardly.

I thinkits quite brave!

[TheKeeNok]

Yes, I do believe it's a cowardly choice, as the person does not want to deal with the problems at hand but wants to take the easy way out.

What if one is deaf, dumb, blind, paralized and in severe pain all of the time? There are people in unbearable circumstances whose every monent is a living hell. Who could blame them for taking the "easy" way out?

I don't consider it easy at all. Provided you were of sound mind it would I think take great courage and conviction.

Like anything, there are situations where many would think it was silly, or a co out. There are others such as you outline, where your quality of life has diminished to an unacceptable level where hanging on, or being kept alive is vain, selfish or cruel. Both to yourself and the family.

It's easy to say without being there, but I sincerely hope I am brave enough if it comes to that.

I also hope my Evapatorium ™ idea is up and running by then.

Agree.

btw,is that one of Vaughn Bode s characters? Looks like his style! A feature film may be made based on his works!

Edited January 27, 2012 by TheKeeNok

[necronx99]

Yes, I do believe it's a cowardly choice, as the person does not want to deal with the problems at hand but wants to take the easy way out.

What if one is deaf, dumb, blind, paralized and in severe pain all of the time? There are people in unbearable circumstances whose every monent is a living hell. Who could blame them for taking the "easy" way out?

I don't consider it easy at all. Provided you were of sound mind it would I think take great courage and conviction.

Like anything, there are situations where many would think it was silly, or a co out. There are others such as you outline, where your quality of life has diminished to an unacceptable level where hanging on, or being kept alive is vain, selfish or cruel. Both to yourself and the family.

It's easy to say without being there, but I sincerely hope I am brave enough if it comes to that.

I also hope my Evapatorium ™ idea is up and running by then.

Agree.

btw,is that one of Vaughn Bode s characters? Looks like his style! A feature film may be made based on his works!

My Avatar? Very close,Ralph Bakshi http://en.wikipedia..../Wizards_(film)

Edited January 27, 2012 by necronx99

[TheKeeNok]

My Avatar? Very close,Ralph Bakshi http://en.wikipedia..../Wizards_(film)

Yup!

[TheKeeNok]

Yup! Actually watched it in the 80s. The details are fuzzy. Will have to get a copy of it and refresh my memory!

[necronx99]

Yup! Actually watched it in the 80s. The details are fuzzy. Will have to get a copy of it and refresh my memory!

I'm pretty sure lots of details from that time are fuzzy for people who watched Wizards.

[kerryk]

If you consider retiring in the States in a nursing home, visit the home. Stay there for a few days. Kids rarely come to visit. If they do the folks get better care. Best to pay someone on the inside to watch over mom. I paid a cook to check on her daily. Nurses are worthless.

In Thailand I got a direct deposit account for my pension so I have to be alive and show up at the bank to get the money. Stroke also scares me. What do they do when you show up at the hospital suffering from a stroke. I understand you have about 4 minutes before damage sets in.

[tombkk]

There is a fine line between suicide and euthanasia.

Suicide = To kill oneself.

Euthanasia = Killing someone else (with the intention of relieving him of his suffering)

Two different things, and a very clear (not fine) line.

To kill oneself over stress, depression, emotional issues, etc as a way to escape the pain is one thing, but to pull the plug due to terminal illness or being incapacitated where your quality of life becomes nil is another issue. I have made it clear to my emergency contacts that I do not wish to be resuscitated or keep alive on a respirator if there is little or no chance of recovery. Neither do I wish to linger on for years with debilitating conditions that reduce my quality of life to where I am just existing. I am at peace with myself and could check out tomorrow with no regrets. There comes a time in everyone's life when they no longer have control over their faculties, so you must make your wishes known, lest your existence is subject to someone else's values. I would like leave this life with some dignity and not as a slobbering vegetable.

If you commit suicide, you are very much in charge of yourself.

If you are a vegetable only being "alive" (in the medical sense) because of some machines you are hooked up to, that's quite another thing. Both on a practical as well as an ethical level.

[JSixpack]

One would have serious concerns about how one would be treated once the doors are closed andthe curtians drawn.

In that situation, in Thailand, you get treated to the full body massage. One would have serious concerns over one's ability to enjoy it to the fullest.

Hate to rain on the parade of those touting the Asian family style of care, but I've seen some families doing a terrible job of caring for their elders. For example, seen an old guy get nothing but mangos and rice to eat.

Turning your ATM card and bank accounts over to some Thais to access for your care--hmmmm. I'd think carefully before doing that, if I could.. .

Checkin' out early to meet Elvis rather than suffer pain and indignity is certainly a viable and rational choice. Hunter S. Thompson did it right, good man.

[tombkk]

Yes, I do believe it's a cowardly choice, as the person does not want to deal with the problems at hand but wants to take the easy way out.

What if one is deaf, dumb, blind, paralized and in severe pain all of the time? There are people in unbearable circumstances whose every monent is a living hell. Who could blame them for taking the "easy" way out?

Dumb?

[tombkk]

One would have serious concerns about how one would be treated once the doors are closed andthe curtians drawn.

In that situation, in Thailand, you get treated to the full body massage. One would have serious concerns over one's ability to enjoy it to the fullest.

Hate to rain on the parade of those touting the Asian family style of care, but I've seen some families doing a terrible job of caring for their elders. For example, seen an old guy get nothing but mangos and rice to eat.

Turning your ATM card and bank accounts over to some Thais to access for your care--hmmmm. I'd think carefully before doing that, if I could.. .

Checkin' out early to meet Elvis rather than suffer pain and indignity is certainly a viable and rational choice. Hunter S. Thompson did it right, good man.

Checking out the Wikipedia article, apparently Hunter S. Thompson thought that 50 was eternally old and he had wasted 17 years when he finally committed suicide at age 67. What a tragic and sad philosophy. I am sorry to learn that he did not seek professional help.

[silsburyhill]

Okay, so as the thread goes on, a large proportion have, given the options - unrealistic ideals of the Thai in-laws taking care of you, and what's left of your bank account, to happy smiley retirement homes either here or there. And if anyone's had the misfortune to have to visit a terminal ward here, I would expect the same cruel and unusual treatment in them. The Thais see the dying as a nuisance, a waste of space, their usefulness run it's course and are left to expire in degradation. No palliative care here. The other side of the LOS.

And we all hope for an 'active 'til we drop', but in many cases this doesn't happen. So, which is it to be then, Nembutol or Nitrous Oxide?

[hellodolly]

Okay, so as the thread goes on, a large proportion have, given the options - unrealistic ideals of the Thai in-laws taking care of you, and what's left of your bank account, to happy smiley retirement homes either here or there. And if anyone's had the misfortune to have to visit a terminal ward here, I would expect the same cruel and unusual treatment in them. The Thais see the dying as a nuisance, a waste of space, their usefulness run it's course and are left to expire in degradation. No palliative care here. The other side of the LOS.

And we all hope for an 'active 'til we drop', but in many cases this doesn't happen. So, which is it to be then, Nembutol or Nitrous Oxide?

I have visited several terminal wards in Canada. I would not want to be there either. Sitting in the hall in a wheelchair staring off into space until the nurse comes to put you in bed. I have seen patient's strapped to potty chairs.

Not my idea of living.

[necronx99]

Yes, I do believe it's a cowardly choice, as the person does not want to deal with the problems at hand but wants to take the easy way out.

What if one is deaf, dumb, blind, paralized and in severe pain all of the time? There are people in unbearable circumstances whose every monent is a living hell. Who could blame them for taking the "easy" way out?

Dumb?

Mute, unable to speak.

[KeyserSoze01]

There is a fine line between suicide and euthanasia.

Suicide = To kill oneself.

Euthanasia = Killing someone else (with the intention of relieving him of his suffering)

Two different things, and a very clear (not fine) line.

So where does directed euthanasia fit into your black and white scenario. Ever hear of Dr. Jack Kevorkian?

[harrry]

I will just hope for the best as I have always done. There is a place for old farangs to stay when they can not take care of themselves in Chiang Mai that is getting good reports and it is not too expensive, so that is always an option.

There are so many reporte and many more unreported cases of nursing home abuse in the west. Do you think itwill be any better in LOS? Ive taken a look online at the CM home. It seems to be locatedin someisolated area. If ur immobile, shitiing and pissin ur bed with bed sores the si\e if plates do u think they willcare? I saw that poor dude in bed with some"nurse" if a |frresh" uniform "takin his bp". It seemed totally staged. One would have serious concerns about how one would be treated once the doors are closed andthe curtians drawn.

Many ppl in LOS don t seem to makeit out of theri 60's? Is that ture? I have noticed a lot of reports of60ish folks checkin out in Pattaya.

You know, checkin out in LOS is not so bad. the fact that life in LOS kinda feels like living in La La land helps!

I can only say regarding the place in Chiangmai that someone I know who was transfered there after a stay in hospital told me that the hospital was hell and the home was heaven. He did not stay in that heaven long as he died but hope he is in another one now.

[Hooters]

I will just hope for the best as I have always done. There is a place for old farangs to stay when they can not take care of themselves in Chiang Mai that is getting good reports and it is not too expensive, so that is always an option.

There is one in BKK , its in the lobby at the Nana hotel

Edited January 28, 2012 by Hooters

[thehelmsman]

Can or will a Farang be given a traditional Thai Funeral?? I'm not so sure. I've asked what will happen when I die & I get a dig a hole and cover it up in the rice field mime. It's all in fun but it does make you wonder.

[geriatrickid]

Here's the real problem: Age related dementia. We can all joke about it, but if this journal quote is accurate, it should be a major concern;

About 5 percent to 8 percent of all people over the age of 65 have some form of dementia, and this number doubles every five years above that age. It is estimated that as many as half of people 85 or older suffer from dementia.

Based upon the lifestyle choices of many foreigners in Thailand, the path to dementia will be hastened. On the other hand, those lifestyle choices will also mean that the elderly foreign population will most likely die at a "younger" age than their native peer group. Not the best of tradeoffs though.

However, the fact remains is that by the time some of us are lucky enough to reach 75 at least 1 out of 4 of us is going to have some diminished mental capacity. That should be the real worry. Who will administer the assets, the money etc.? One of the dark secrets of Thailand's expat community is that many of its older members are exploited and ripped off by family members and/or caregivers. The elderly won't mention it either because of shame or in many cases they are clueless. It's not specific to Thailand either, but is common in western countries too.

I suppose some will think that their young wives and families will care for them. Sure, maybe some will. Perhaps 50% or even 35% will take care of the old foreigner because he was a loving and decent man. And what of the others? It's that lack of care that hastens the demise, through poor nutrition, neglect of health conditions or slips and falls. I don't know what the solution is. Maybe the best insurance is to have a living trust and to make sure one builds the love and trust with one's kids and wife. As for single guys like me, I wouldn't trust my friend to care for me, she can't even book an airline ticket without stressing out. I will most likely go off to die in a western seniors residence. This is one time the folks with families and that took time to be good fathers and husbands have an edge over me.

[tombkk]

There is a fine line between suicide and euthanasia.

Suicide = To kill oneself.

Euthanasia = Killing someone else (with the intention of relieving him of his suffering)

Two different things, and a very clear (not fine) line.

So where does directed euthanasia fit into your black and white scenario. Ever hear of Dr. Jack Kevorkian?

A controversial question. I just saw Bicentennial Man again, this time on TrueVision. At the end, after the protagonist dies, his widow asks the nurse to unplug her from the machine. Would I have done that?

If you ask someone to kill somebody, is this different from killing that somebody yourself? Is suicide by asking somebody else to do it for you not a suicide? We also know "suicide by cops" as a concept.

In my ethical feeling, killing somebody, even if it is yourself, is bad. It does not matter whether you actually drink poison or ask another human being to do it for you.

There is an exception. If somebody is only alive in the medical sense because he is on machines, and does not feel or notice anything and is being a vegetable, I don't think the "life" should be extended artificially. I see a major difference between these two scenarios.

[silsburyhill]

There is a fine line between suicide and euthanasia.

Suicide = To kill oneself.

Euthanasia = Killing someone else (with the intention of relieving him of his suffering)

Two different things, and a very clear (not fine) line.

So where does directed euthanasia fit into your black and white scenario. Ever hear of Dr. Jack Kevorkian?

A controversial question. I just saw Bicentennial Man again, this time on TrueVision. At the end, after the protagonist dies, his widow asks the nurse to unplug her from the machine. Would I have done that?

If you ask someone to kill somebody, is this different from killing that somebody yourself? Is suicide by asking somebody else to do it for you not a suicide? We also know "suicide by cops" as a concept.

In my ethical feeling, killing somebody, even if it is yourself, is bad. It does not matter whether you actually drink poison or ask another human being to do it for you.

There is an exception. If somebody is only alive in the medical sense because he is on machines, and does not feel or notice anything and is being a vegetable, I don't think the "life" should be extended artificially. I see a major difference between these two scenarios.

You're not 'killing' someone, just removing artificial life support.

However, there are documented cases, one quite recent, where the 'patient', reported to be in a vegetative state for many years 'came to' and communicated they had been aware of everything going on around them for the duration. Imagine that living hell.

We are only on the brink of discovering what 'consciousness' really is.

[F1fanatic]

There was an article in a newspaper fairly recently saying that a new 'technique' for communicating with the 'comatose' via brainwaves has revealed that 40% approx of comatose patients are actually aware - just unable to move anything (even eyelids). How horrifying is that??

Does anyone think they would prefer to continue in that state rather than being given drugs to allow them to die painlessly?

Those who have no hope (short of a miracle discovery), should be allowed to die easily - NOT starved and dehydrated to death... If they are able to communicate their wishes, so much the better.

[tombkk]

A controversial question. I just saw Bicentennial Man again, this time on TrueVision. At the end, after the protagonist dies, his widow asks the nurse to unplug her from the machine. Would I have done that?

If you ask someone to kill somebody, is this different from killing that somebody yourself? Is suicide by asking somebody else to do it for you not a suicide? We also know "suicide by cops" as a concept.

In my ethical feeling, killing somebody, even if it is yourself, is bad. It does not matter whether you actually drink poison or ask another human being to do it for you.

There is an exception. If somebody is only alive in the medical sense because he is on machines, and does not feel or notice anything and is being a vegetable, I don't think the "life" should be extended artificially. I see a major difference between these two scenarios.

You're not 'killing' someone, just removing artificial life support.

However, there are documented cases, one quite recent, where the 'patient', reported to be in a vegetative state for many years 'came to' and communicated they had been aware of everything going on around them for the duration. Imagine that living hell.

We are only on the brink of discovering what 'consciousness' really is.

Whether "just removing the life support" is killing someone or not, is debatable.