Thongsook College

[richard10365]

OK Scott, I will do my best not to step on anyone toes here because this is a very touchy subject. However, I do work in the Admissions and Marketing Department at Payap University in Chiang Mai, so there are things I look for when (1) accepting new students and (2) evaluating my competition.

1. Accreditation by the Ministry of Education (MOE). It's not there.
   
2. Perquisites to enroll are usually mentioned on university websites that are accredited. These prerequisites are the same all over Thailand. A high school diploma, M6 diploma, GED, or in the case of their Masters Degree, they should ask for a bachelors degree. I didn't see that either. It does say their MBA is not yet approved by the MOE.
   
3. Information about the teaching staff and their education and research credentials. Most accredited universities have something.
   

There are two associations mentioned in the program. Both have very vague websites with which I found it difficult to find any type of official accreditation. I did Google them and didn't find any positive information. You can Google it if you want to find out. There was some negative information. The two associations are:

1. The Manhattan Institution of Management
   
2. TEFL International
   

I believe education in Thailand is in the middle of a transformation that's being driven by the ASEAN winds of change. For Thailand, change is positive as higher standards in education with produce higher quality graduates. Schools that are questionable will no doubt be weeded out during this phase.

My advice, find an institution teaching international programs that's accredited by the Ministry of Education in Thailand and study there. Don't throw your money away. The same programs that are being taught all over Thailand in accredited institutions are also being taught in the west in countries like the United States, the UK, or Germany. They're just being taught differently.

I think there is great value in learning in Thailand at the right institution:

• The cost is much cheaper (tuition, text books, cost of living).
  
• The ASEAN Economic Community (AEC) will help make the region more prosperous as economies benefit from the partnership. You will leave how to live and work in that economy.
  
• Learning from a global perspective and not in an environment that's dominated by one overriding culture such as an American culture opens your mind up to global opportunities and ideas.
  
• Growth in the region is very good and opportunities after graduation are abundant in the AEC.
  
• Employers looking for employees with added cultural diversity skills will pay higher salaries to international graduates to operate in the AEC.
  
• You learn in English, a subject (such as International Business Management) in a country where English is not the dominate language with classmates from 20 or 30 different countries.
  

I could go on with the benefits but I have to stop somewhere. The point is, in the right school study in Thailand is an awesome opportunity. In the wrong school its simply a waste of time and money.

[Loaded]

Good post Richard.

Quite a few schools and training organizations in Thailand fly under the radar of the MoE. Good advice to check whether they are licensed by the MoE. If they don't list their school licence number on their website and they fail to provide when asked by email, there is probably a reason why.

[brucetefl]

Just to let everyone know, Thongsook College is accredited by the MOE and the new international BA in TESOL has gone through all legal procedures to begin operations.

There will be an open house on campus on 2 June at 10 am. if you want to come and ask questions you are more than welcome.

I openly wonder why someone with an obvious conflict of interest would post untrue and negative comments about another institution of higher education on a public message board. Its certainly not very professional.

Edited May 24, 2012 by brucetefl

[puchooay]

I really cannot see how this can benefit teachers that are already teaching anyway. Assuming that someone is already on a waiver. They have maximum 2 years to complete a degree course before their next waiver is due.

This course takes 3 years.

As far as I was aware the TCT rules now are no degree no waiver.

[Baytur]

OK Scott, I will do my best not to step on anyone toes here because this is a very touchy subject. However, I do work in the Admissions and Marketing Department at Payap University in Chiang Mai, so there are things I look for when (1) accepting new students and (2) evaluating my competition.

1. Accreditation by the Ministry of Education (MOE). It's not there.
   
2. Perquisites to enroll are usually mentioned on university websites that are accredited. These prerequisites are the same all over Thailand. A high school diploma, M6 diploma, GED, or in the case of their Masters Degree, they should ask for a bachelors degree. I didn't see that either. It does say their MBA is not yet approved by the MOE.
   
3. Information about the teaching staff and their education and research credentials. Most accredited universities have something.
   

Thanks for your post Richard. However I highlighted the words that can be used to nullify points 2 and 3. Usually... and Most...

Point number 1, I would be interested in how you know the accreditation is not there? Research shows the College achieved MOE accreditation in 1995.

Does each course and BA also have to be accredited? (genuine question)

If so how exactly does one see or check it's accreditation? Does each course have a unique MoE or CHE identification number that people can check? (genuine questions)

What exactly is a BA course's accreditation and how does one confirm it?

Let's get down to the nitty-gritty without things like 'most unis usually' and the such.

Thanks for your time and looking forward to your info. (I hold no bias for or against this course btw)

[Baytur]

Good advice to check whether they are licensed by the MoE. If they don't list their school licence number on their website and they fail to provide when asked by email, there is probably a reason why.

Loaded, what sort of licensing numbers, accreditation numbers etc. does a college need to have to be fully accredited, and their courses (B.A) be fully accredited?

What is a school's license number (with the MoE?) and how can one check it.

I am interested in this course, but want to get confirmation from the MoE and CHE that both the college and this B.A. is fully accredited by both.

What numbers do I need to get before contacting the MoE and CHE to confirm they both accredit, license or whatever(?) this B.A. and the institutions that offer it?

I would guess that upon college accreditation the MoE give the institution a license number such as: 'MOETSK Accreditation/License number: 1000203030'

And have a list of every college in the country with their accreditation/license number that people can use to check.

And every B.A Course presumably has the same, with the CHE? MoE? Where every accredited B.A. Course in the country has it's own official number, such as: CHETSKBATESOL 10040303'? And this can be checked with the CHE and MoE?

Thanks.

Again I want to deal in cold hard facts of how I can check both the college and it's BA TESOL course without going through the college and the course providers, thanks.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Baytur

[brucetefl]

I am certain that the MOE can confirm that Thongsook College is accredited by the CHE. Here is the colleges Thai website:

http://www.thongsook.ac.th/index3.php

For anyone interested, the process of getting a degree approved is the following:

Develop the degree. it must be in a format called TQF.

Have a panel of academics review the program and make suggestions. n our case our review panel included David Nunan and Brian Tomlinson.

Submit the program to the university Academic Committee for approval.

Once the Academic Committee accepts the program it is submitted to the University Council.

Once the University Council has approved it, it is sent to CHE for final approval. traditionally once the UC has approved it, it is legal and acceptable to begin accepting students for admission. In our case the program was sent to CHE and we did not begin marketing it. There were some clarifications that CHE wished to make and we answered a few of their questions and made some modifications. It was then resubmitted to both the AC and UC and sent to CHE again.

I can assure anyone reading this, including my slightly misguided friend at Payup, that this program has been fully vetted.

Edited May 24, 2012 by brucetefl

[skybluestu]

But even with this the TCT won't grant a TL, they are only interested in a BA in Education so you'll still have to take the nonsensical, pointless and degrading TCT tests with huge amounts of grammatical errors and often don't have a correct answer in the multiple choice options.

[brucetefl]

Yes you are absolutely correct. It is a degree, nothing more nothing less.

But even with this the TCT won't grant a TL, they are only interested in a BA in Education so you'll still have to take the nonsensical, pointless and degrading TCT tests with huge amounts of grammatical errors and often don't have a correct answer in the multiple choice options.

[brucetefl]

I would recommend anyone check out the thread on thailandteaching.asia

Yes you are absolutely correct. It is a degree, nothing more nothing less.

But even with this the TCT won't grant a TL, they are only interested in a BA in Education so you'll still have to take the nonsensical, pointless and degrading TCT tests with huge amounts of grammatical errors and often don't have a correct answer in the multiple choice options.

[Baytur]

I have just sent this email to the only email address on the MoE website (:

Dear Sir/Madam,

Thongsuk College Bangkok is offering a new B.A. TESOL through its new International Program, due to start in June.

I want to inquire if both Thongsuk College's International Program, and the B.A TESOL are both accredited by the MoE and CHE.

I am looking for licensing or accreditation numbers, or evidence that the MoE and CHE accredit both Thongsuk College and their International Program's BA. TESOL.

I hope you can help me,

Thank you very much,

[Baytur]

Bruce, there is surely a document from the MoE/CHE approving this course and giving it accreditation?

Surely they put it in writing somewhere and didn't just phone to let ye know.

[brucetefl]

Actually the CHE can just ignore the proposal and allow it to operate without even responding. Thats the way the rule book is written. I do not write the rules I just follow them.

Honestly do you think an accredited college in Thailand would run a program illegally?

If you really are that distrustful I strongly suggest either coming to the open house or just not taking the degree program.

[thaicbr]

Actually the CHE can just ignore the proposal and allow it to operate without even responding. Thats the way the rule book is written. I do not write the rules I just follow them.

Honestly do you think an accredited college in Thailand would run a program illegally?

If you really are that distrustful I strongly suggest either coming to the open house or just not taking the degree program.

Bruce. You live in Thailand so you know that this is indeed true that uni's have offered unaccredited courses.

There have been a fair few cases of accredited Thai uni's that have run non accredited courses or that have started courses while waiting to be accredited.

As for you assertion that a course can be accredited but NOT have paperwork.

Quite simply I do not believe you. This is the land of paperwork and multiple copies. The MOE is at the centre if this paperwork universe.

sent from my Wellcom A90+

[Baytur]

Apologies for my curtness. I am only after facts.

The International Program of TSC, and the BA it offers are both brand new, as this is the first course that they are opening. Surely both of them had get approval from the MoE. Surely this approval/accreditation is given in an official document listing licensing numbers/accreditation numbers etc. The MoE don't just call on the phone to let the college know it's been accredited.

Actually the CHE can just ignore the proposal and allow it to operate without even responding. Thats the way the rule book is written. I do not write the rules I just follow them.

'It can be allowed to operate without...'

That doesn't sound like it's been accredited. It sounds that it can operate even without the CHE acknowledging its existence. Which seems to be the case?

Honestly do you think an accredited college in Thailand would run a program illegally?

In your above quote it wouldn't be running illegally, as it is 'allowed to operate without response from the CHE'

If you really are that distrustful I strongly suggest either coming to the open house or just not taking the degree program.

I am not distrustful. I want clear proof from the MoE and CHE before enrolling in a 3 year course. You cannot give official documentation/accreditation numbers or licensing number for this course. That is what I am after.

Again apologies for my curtness, but I (and others I'm sure) want to deal in cold hard, documented and stamped, fact.

[thaicbr]

Also Bruce. I have to ask. Why is it a BA. And not a B'Ed which is required for a teachers license. I know the CHE asked the same question!

also do the TCT recognize this course as advancement so allowing continued waivers. Can you start taking the TCT tests before you have graduated the course ?

That's after all why many people will do the course to enable continued work and the TCT license.

sent from my Wellcom A90+

Edited May 24, 2012 by thaicbr

[brucetefl]

You can believe me or not. That's up to you. I have explained in detail the approval process. We have completed it.

If universities in Thailand have been running unaccredited degrees it is news to me. I hope they took away their accreditation.

In our case it is not the case. You are welcome to investigate this matter. But further discussion seems pointless at this time.

Again we will hold an open house on 2 June at 10 am at Thongsook College. If anyone would like to attend it is not far from the Southern Bus Terminal and Mahidol International Campus.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=thongsuk+college+bangkok&hl=en&ll=13.768064,100.442162&spn=0.112375,0.220757&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=46.630055,113.027344&hq=thongsuk+college&hnear=Bangkok,+Thailand&t=m&z=12

[brucetefl]

The BEd would take up to five years. This program, although it is a full 120 credits, can be completed in 3. We felt it was not worht the trade off.

Also Bruce. I have to ask. Why is it a BA. And not a B'Ed which is required for a teachers license. I know the CHE asked the same question!

also do the TCT recognize this course as advancement so allowing continued waivers. Can you start taking the TCT tests before you have graduated the course ?

That's after all why many people will do the course to enable continued work and the TCT license.

sent from my Wellcom A90+

[Baytur]

Bruce. You live in Thailand so you know that this is indeed true that uni's have offered unaccredited courses.

There have been a fair few cases of accredited Thai uni's that have run non accredited courses or that have started courses while waiting to be accredited.

As for you assertion that a course can be accredited but NOT have paperwork.

Quite simply I do not believe you. This is the land of paperwork and multiple copies. The MOE is at the centre if this paperwork universe.

There was a case in the news about a month ago of a group of 3rd year Thai students who had been informed that the college course had either no accreditation, and I think had lied about having it. I am not mentioning this in any relation to the degree and institution being discussed, but simply that in Thailand I feel it is important to be able to get full accreditation info for a course before beginning it.

As it stands it appears there is no document from the MoE or CHE that accredits this degree.

I am waiting for Loaded and Richard (or others) to answer the questions about licensing accreditation numbers, and what documentation a course needs to show approval and accreditation by the MoE/CHE.

Thanks for all your input Bruce. I'm not trying to be hard on anybody, but I want the clear, transparent truth about degree accreditation in Thailand, and how one can verify such with the MoE/CHE.

[Baytur]

You can believe me or not. That's up to you. I have explained in detail the approval process. We have completed it.

But just to clarify, you say it is 'legally accredited by the CHE by way of them ignoring it for the legal period of time, which automatically gives it legal accreditation'?

Sorry to bother you Bruce, but do you know how we can get info from the CHE about courses in Thailand that they accredit?

Edited May 24, 2012 by Baytur

[thaicbr]

You can believe me or not. That's up to you. I have explained in detail the approval process. We have completed it.

But just to clarify, you say it is 'legally accredited by the CHE by way of them ignoring it for the legal period of time, which automatically gives it legal accreditation'?

Sorry to bother you Bruce, but do you know how we can get info from the CHE about courses in Thailand that they accredit?

Bruce. This exactly the conflicting information that has appeared on many forums. Mainly from yourself.

Here are some simple questions to answer.

Is this course accredited by the MOE and do you have that in writing?

Is this degree accepted by TCT for further waivers until graduated?

Thanks

sent from my Wellcom A90+

[brucetefl]

As you can probably understand, its not I who deals with the CHE. In fact, I had to have the degree proposal re-translated back to English so i could know of any changes that had been made.

But I also had the Thai rule book for having degrees approved by the CHE translated for me so i knew the process.

I also spoke to a colleague who had his degree program approved through the CHE at Asian University.

I also spoke to my friend Dr. Om, a PhD (Indiana USA) and current instructor at Burapha University and former head of the International Business program at Mahidol.

The book and my two colleagues have all confirmed the process. And we have completed that process. I attended the AC and UC and after the conclusion had a celebration dinner with the Thongsook College's President. That was nearly 2 months ago. The AC submitted the proposal to the CHE at that time. I was not personally present.

if this process is inadequate in your eyes all I can suggest is not joining. I have no idea what else to say.

[thaicbr]

As you can probably understand, its not I who deals with the CHE. In fact, I had to have the degree proposal re-translated back to English so i could know of any changes that had been made.

But I also had the Thai rule book for having degrees approved by the CHE translated for me so i knew the process.

I also spoke to a colleague who had his degree program approved through the CHE at Asian University.

I also spoke to my friend Dr. Om, a PhD (Indiana USA) and current instructor at Burapha University and former head of the International Business program at Mahidol.

The book and my two colleagues have all confirmed the process. And we have completed that process. I attended the AC and UC and after the conclusion had a celebration dinner with the Thongsook College's President. That was nearly 2 months ago. The AC submitted the proposal to the CHE at that time. I was not personally present.

if this process is inadequate in your eyes all I can suggest is not joining. I have no idea what else to say.

Provide proof!!

sent from my Wellcom A90+

[brucetefl]

As I have stated many times including this forum, this progam is a degree from an accredited Thai college. We make NO other promises about waivers and TKT exams.

It would be helpful if you would quit asking the same questions over and over again.

You can believe me or not. That's up to you. I have explained in detail the approval process. We have completed it.

But just to clarify, you say it is 'legally accredited by the CHE by way of them ignoring it for the legal period of time, which automatically gives it legal accreditation'?

Sorry to bother you Bruce, but do you know how we can get info from the CHE about courses in Thailand that they accredit?

Bruce. This exactly the conflicting information that has appeared on many forums. Mainly from yourself.

Here are some simple questions to answer.

Is this course accredited by the MOE and do you have that in writing?

Is this degree accepted by TCT for further waivers until graduated?

Thanks

sent from my Wellcom A90+

[Baytur]

As I have stated many times including this forum, this progam is a degree from an accredited Thai college. We make NO other promises about waivers and TKT exams.

Thanks Bruce, and I do mean that, it isn't easy being put under the spotlight.

I highlighted 'this program' as I want some info from either yourself or anyone else with genuine knowledge.

For a B.A degree program to be accredited, what do the MoE have to provide? Accreditation number? License Number? Nothing at all?

[Loaded]

I am waiting for Loaded and Richard (or others) to answer the questions about licensing accreditation numbers, and what documentation a course needs to show approval and accreditation by the MoE/CHE.

I believe the school/college has to obtain a school licence. Requirements include building engineers report, size of classrooms etc. I think the school licensee needs to have achieved a certain education civil service grade. The school/college cannot be owned by an individual but needs to be owned by a company. Once the licence is achieved, curriculum for any subject can be presented for inspection to the MoE. Once approved, they are attached to the original licence. This takes time and may explain the delay in introducing the program. The BA TESOL is probably an attachment to the college's original licence. The attachment's registration is identified by a series of numbers and letters written in Thai. That's what you need to give to the MoE.

[brucetefl]

To loaded:

Thongsook was accredited in 1995. its not a new college.

According to the rule book, after the AC submits the program to the CHE, the CHE has 60 days to make any comments. If they do not make any comments the degree automatically becomes official in 60 days.

We went through this process 6 months ago already and they asked us to clarify a few points. It was then submitted again to the AC and UC and resubmitted. The CHE rarely makes any big changes once a degree program has gone through all the steps necessary. But they may make some minor changes and adjust a few things in cooperation with the university.

According to the rules, as soon as the UC approve a degree it can be marketed and the program can begin accepting students. We did not do so the first time through as a precaution. We waited until the initial changes were made and went back through the process.

[brucetefl]

i am going out now and will not be able to answer any more questions for at least a few hours.

[Baytur]

^ Thanks.

The BA TESOL is probably an attachment to the college's original licence. The attachment's registration is identified by a series of numbers and letters written in Thai. That's what you need to give to the MoE.

And the MoE respond and give accreditation by?

(stamped document? Course License Number? etc.??)

[Baytur]

To loaded:

Thongsook was accredited in 1995. its not a new college.

According to the rule book, after the AC submits the program to the CHE, the CHE has 60 days to make any comments. If they do not make any comments the degree automatically becomes official in 60 days.

We went through this process 6 months ago already and they asked us to clarify a few points. It was then submitted again to the AC and UC and resubmitted. The CHE rarely makes any big changes once a degree program has gone through all the steps necessary. But they may make some minor changes and adjust a few things in cooperation with the university.

According to the rules, as soon as the UC approve a degree it can be marketed and the program can begin accepting students. We did not do so the first time through as a precaution. We waited until the initial changes were made and went back through the process.

Thanks for a clear answer.