Restaurants Charging 10 Percent Service Charge And Not Giving It To Their Staff

[Jingthing]

This thread is bringing out something I hadn't even thought of. Am I totally wrong to feel that when a service charge is added to the bill which you MUST pay, in Thailand or any country, the implied MEANING of that is that the money is for the staff as an extra income, similar to a tip? One poster seems to be saying I have been wrong. I am not convinced. Please discuss.

I respect you but I cannot believe that you did not known the owner kepts most of the money. In USA and the rest of the world. when thir is a service charge just do not eat there

Excuse me, but how are we supposed to know the specific policies of every restaurant we walk into? To me, if it says service charge and the money doesn't go to staff, they are lying to the customers and stealing from their staff.

[harryfrompattaya]

This thread is bringing out something I hadn't even thought of. Am I totally wrong to feel that when a service charge is added to the bill which you MUST pay, in Thailand or any country, the implied MEANING of that is that the money is for the staff as an extra income, similar to a tip? One poster seems to be saying I have been wrong. I am not convinced. Please discuss.

I respect you but I cannot believe that you did not known the owner kepts most of the money. In USA and the rest of the world. when thir is a service charge just do not eat there

Excuse me, but how are we supposed to know the specific policies of every restaurant we walk into? To me, if it says service charge and the money doesn't go to staff, they are lying to the customers and stealing from their staff.

Ask if they charged if they say yes do not eat there.

If everyone did that no service charge

[Jingthing]

This thread is bringing out something I hadn't even thought of. Am I totally wrong to feel that when a service charge is added to the bill which you MUST pay, in Thailand or any country, the implied MEANING of that is that the money is for the staff as an extra income, similar to a tip? One poster seems to be saying I have been wrong. I am not convinced. Please discuss.

I respect you but I cannot believe that you did not known the owner kepts most of the money. In USA and the rest of the world. when thir is a service charge just do not eat there

Excuse me, but how are we supposed to know the specific policies of every restaurant we walk into? To me, if it says service charge and the money doesn't go to staff, they are lying to the customers and stealing from their staff.

Ask if they charged if they say yes do not eat there.

If everyone did that no service charge

A few of my favorite places are plus plus. I like food too much to boycott them because I don't love their business practices.

[Wallaby]

The "service charge" is part of the restaurants general labour cost and therefore belongs rightly and correctly to the restaurant, and not to the staff, and it can not be regarded as tips.

IMO it is dishonest to charge customers a service charge to use for paying the staff's salary. Restaurants should use their profits for that like every other business. Most employees here are paid next to nothing anyway.

Agree, dishonest in the extreme.

Next thing they will be charging an extra 5% for electricity.

For Buddha's sake, put the cost of a meal in black and white, none of this service charge crap. It is a restaurant, do they think the food will cook itself and morph to the table? Jeez some of those owners need a big kick up the ass.

Put the full price of everything on the menu. If I want to leave a tip I will. If I don't then I am going to be severely pissed off with actually having to pay a service charge if the service is crap.

Truth in pricing.

[cardholder]

This thread is bringing out something I hadn't even thought of. Am I totally wrong to feel that when a service charge is added to the bill which you MUST pay, in Thailand or any country, the implied MEANING of that is that the money is for the staff as an extra income, similar to a tip? One poster seems to be saying I have been wrong. I am not convinced. Please discuss.

I respect you but I cannot believe that you did not known the owner kepts most of the money. In USA and the rest of the world. when thir is a service charge just do not eat there

You might just be denying yourself the meal of a lifetime for the sake of 10% on the bill (that you would have been happy to pay if wrapped in the price).

[Jayman]

The "service charge" is part of the restaurants general labour cost and therefore belongs rightly and correctly to the restaurant, and not to the staff, and it can not be regarded as tips.

IMO it is dishonest to charge customers a service charge to use for paying the staff's salary. Restaurants should use their profits for that like every other business. Most employees here are paid next to nothing anyway.

Agree, dishonest in the extreme.

Next thing they will be charging an extra 5% for electricity.

For Buddha's sake, put the cost of a meal in black and white, none of this service charge crap. It is a restaurant, do they think the food will cook itself and morph to the table? Jeez some of those owners need a big kick up the ass.

Put the full price of everything on the menu. If I want to leave a tip I will. If I don't then I am going to be severely pissed off with actually having to pay a service charge if the service is crap.

Truth in pricing.

I very much agree with this. Just put the price of the cooked food brought to my table on the menu. No need to hide the true price in charges that are added to the end. I will look at the menu and decide what I want and can afford to eat on my budget. If the cost of food there is too expensive for me, I will stop eating there until I can afford it.

I am more than happy to tip the service staff for a job well done. A tip is not to be expected for everything one does in the course of their job. It's given as a bonus to reward good work and as an incentive to continue providing good service. Kinda reminds me of an argument that took place at the beginning of "Reservoir Dogs". "Why are some jobs deemed tip worthy and others not?"

The practice of advertising one price and then charging more on the menu due to fine print that is found seems quite deceiving. I would love to hear some valid reasons for this practice that don't involve deceit. The excuse that folks want a breakdown of their service charges is weak at best. We all know that a flat rate doesn't cover every item that is made. Just include the true prices on the menu and you will leave your customers with a much more positive feeling.

Will the ++ pricing stop me from enjoying food I enjoy? No it won't. But it will leave me with a negative feeling about the business owners and I will be more likely to talk badly about the establishment to others instead of singing it's praises. I would think that restaurants survive on word of mouth and repeat business and would want all the positive word of mouth they could get. After all, it's free publicity.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Jayman

[DP25]

This thread is bringing out something I hadn't even thought of. Am I totally wrong to feel that when a service charge is added to the bill which you MUST pay, in Thailand or any country, the implied MEANING of that is that the money is for the staff as an extra income, similar to a tip? One poster seems to be saying I have been wrong. I am not convinced. Please discuss.

I respect you but I cannot believe that you did not known the owner kepts most of the money. In USA and the rest of the world. when thir is a service charge just do not eat there

In some states now it is illegal for a restaurant to keep the service charge. In others they have to clearly label what percent of the service charge goes to the staff. Hopefully ALL states will be like this soon. A restaurant that does not give it all to the staff is taking advantage of their customers and their staff and should be avoided

[StreetCowboy]

I had generously assumed that the service charge was a way of passing some variable costs on to the staff, reducing the risk to the restaurant owner.

If the place is quiet, the staff don't get much; if its busy, they get more. Similarly, from the staff's point of view, they are getting rewarded if they work hard.

I would like to be told on the menu what I was going to be charged prior to ordering, though, and also it would make it a lot easier divvying the cost of the meal up afterwards, when you're eating with English people.

SC

[IanForbes]

I can put up with just about anything... ONCE. As soon as I experience a restaurant that automatically adds a service charge that is the LAST time I ever dine there. And, I inform all my friends about it as well. I am a liberal tipper, but I don't and won't allow myself to be gouged.

However, I eat virtually 98% of my Thai meals in small, inexpensive street side cafes where I pay about 40 baht for a nourishing meal.

[Jayman]

I took the family to an un-named restaurant in Central tonight. They have an all you can eat deal for a set price. You are required to cook all the food at your table over an open flame. The quality of the meet was very good. Much better than any of the other all you can eat style asian cooking places. No drinks are included in the all you can eat price (not even water). Of course, my big complaint was that they add 10% service charge automatically on top of the 399 they charge per person. Now considering almost everything about this place was written in Thai and not english I can see that this was clearly aimed at hi-so thai customers. But when you cook all the food yourself it seems silly to pay a mandatory 10% service charge. Was odd that they included the 7% VAT in the menu prices so you only got hit with a 10% charge at the end and not 17%. Of course, considering this mandatory charge was over 100thb for us I didn't leave any tip on top of that. I also did not feel badly about not leaving any more than was charged already.

Of course, I did enjoy the food and would probably go back there again but only bring the wife and not our 4 year old cause they charged him 50% of the full price and he ate next to nothing.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Jayman

[MJo]

I have to say i find this quite funny. American's and their tipping customs

As long as the total cost is known who cares. I usually have other things in my mind than how the staff is getting along when out and about. So i leave it to the employer and employees to agree between themselves.

I leave the coins and/or 20 baht unless the service was really bad and more in case very good or big meal with more people etc. And yes, when in US or somewhere else where tipping is custom i do tip as the locals do.

How do you handle any visits to KL or Singapore, it's all ++ so your only options are noodle soup from seven ?

[Jayman]

The point is not so much about the price but about the practice of listing charges as a "service charge" and then not giving them in full to the service staff.

If there is no deception involved then just add 10 or 17% to all items on the menu and it's a done deal. I have never been to KL or Singapore so I can't speak on why or why they don't just add all the costs to the menu items. To me, it seems deceptive.

That all being said.. I do understand if taxes are kept separate for book keeping and collection purposes. But a service charge is not a tax that is being paid to a regulatory body.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Jayman

[MJo]

For me it's not deceptive if it is mentioned in the menu as it usually is. Not like automatic tips.

Regardless, my point is the cultural differences here. Most people i know don't have any problems with this. It has never crossed their mind actually. It's just people who come from US or similar culture of automatic tipping and below minimum wage staff. And try to apply it to Thailand.

[StreetCowboy]

For me it's not deceptive if it is mentioned in the menu as it usually is. Not like automatic tips.

Regardless, my point is the cultural differences here. Most people i know don't have any problems with this. It has never crossed their mind actually. It's just people who come from US or similar culture of automatic tipping and below minimum wage staff. And try to apply it to Thailand.

I find it deceptive, and I feel it is deceitful as well. I also find it inconvenient, as mentioned earlier, because it makes divvying up the bill difficult when eating with English people. I would like to see a bottom-line figure quoted before I order. I would like to have an option on anything that I was not originally quoted - whether that be baggage, insurance, service or tax. If I am obliged to pay it, then it should be included in the price quoted.

SC

[MJo]

If it's not in the menu then yes, it's a scam. But i usually find it mentioned in the menu. So i know the total cost before ordering.

I also agree it is much more convenient to have it included in the price as that saves the calculations.

For eating with English i use tip calculator app in my mobile or if i don't bother just throw in plenty to cover myself, sit back and enjoy the show

[Ajaan]

I have long suspected that the hated 10% "service charge" (SO ridiculous, because 10% is NOT a standard tip calculation in Thailand in anyone's universe!!!) was a scam by employers to line their pockets and does not go to the employees...but you know what? When I see that 10% service charge on my bill (and sometimes, you have to fuc_king use a magnifying glass to find it on your goddamn check!), I do NOT tip the staff above it. Sucks, but service staff can always choose to not work at at shitbag restaurant that pulls such fuc_king shit on them, too...

Yet another example of "TIT," sadly...Thailand, the country that is so good at the haves blatantly fuc_king over the have-nots, sigh...

[IanForbes]

I think airlines are presently getting their knuckles wrapped for not disclosing all the charges over and above what they advertise. For example, someone will book a flight on-line using the advertised prices to compare costs with other airlines. Then, once they've booked with a credit card they receive a charge of 30 % more to cover all the other "extras". Trying to UN-BOOK the flight is a royal pain and takes forever to get your money back.

It is pretty much the same with the restaurants charging over and above what the menu says.

[Kaoboi Bebobp]

As others say, the service charge is deceitful. Dynasty Inn on soi 4 BKK puts 10% SC on the bill but not one baht goes to staff. I seem to remember a "pasta" shop under the Nana BTS station, north side, charges 15%, with nothing to staff. Bei Otto on soi 20 Sukhumvit charges 10% but every baht goes to staff. Many visiting westerners, especially first timers, interpret the SC as money going to staff. So I'm betting nearly every tourist district eatery that applies an SC directs that money right into the owner's pocket as opposed to defraying labour costs. He/she knows they can get away with it. And SC's are never highlighted, they're just another barely readable line before the grand total. Just because the SC is on the menu doesn't excuse the deceitful nature of it. (Why do we need, as one poster said, to know we're being charged for labour. BS! Even worse practitioners of this SC business practice are the banks. )

I can understand adding an SC for big groups, say 6 or more, which is done in Canada and the U.S. There's always one or two in the group who try to escape or under-report their part of the bill so I find the SC a better way to just get the darned bill paid. And it's fairer to the restaurant staff, who most definitely rely on tips to make any money.

[Jingthing]

If it's not in the menu then yes, it's a scam. But i usually find it mentioned in the menu. So i know the total cost before ordering.

I also agree it is much more convenient to have it included in the price as that saves the calculations.

For eating with English i use tip calculator app in my mobile or if i don't bother just throw in plenty to cover myself, sit back and enjoy the show

I think you may have misunderstood my issue. If it is on the bill, even if the customer didn't notice mention on the menu or whether it was on the menu or not, its a customers responsibility to read the bill. So going there, if it says 10 percent SERVICE CHARGE, and it turns out this money is not going to staff as a bonus to their salary, as in a tip, but rather a way to pour more money into the ownership funds, then that is the "scam" I am complaining about.

[DP25]

Don't you make more money out of a party of 4 eating than you do if 1 person eats? Why add the 10%?

By adding the 10% it is obvious you don't want parties of 4 or more dining as they aren't worth the hassle of your staff attending to them.

Before you know it some restaurants will have an advertised price of 100 baht for a meal but at the end include a 100% service charge. All false advertising.

As another poster stated....just tell me what it costs on the menu to get a meal. If you have to include a service charge then your prices are too low.

He says he gives it all to the staff as a tip. It is a mandatory tip to make sure large groups do not forget to tip the waiter. A large group is a lot of work and takes time away from other tables. Large groups argue over the bill and want it split up and no one ends up tipping, this is to make sure the waiter doesn't get screwed. As long as a service charge all goes to the staff as a tip I have no problem with it.

[Wallaby]

Don't you make more money out of a party of 4 eating than you do if 1 person eats? Why add the 10%?

By adding the 10% it is obvious you don't want parties of 4 or more dining as they aren't worth the hassle of your staff attending to them.

Before you know it some restaurants will have an advertised price of 100 baht for a meal but at the end include a 100% service charge. All false advertising.

As another poster stated....just tell me what it costs on the menu to get a meal. If you have to include a service charge then your prices are too low.

He says he gives it all to the staff as a tip. It is a mandatory tip to make sure large groups do not forget to tip the waiter. A large group is a lot of work and takes time away from other tables. Large groups argue over the bill and want it split up and no one ends up tipping, this is to make sure the waiter doesn't get screwed. As long as a service charge all goes to the staff as a tip I have no problem with it.

But a tip is at the option of the diner. A service charge is not. I don't come from a country that really tips, however we still do sometimes for good service. However, what if the service isn't good, you still have to pay the service charge. Why should I be made to tip (service charge) staff if the service isn't good?

I'm sorry but when I go for a meal I want the real price stated on the menu beside each item. It is then my choice to tip or not. It shouldn't be the owners choice to decide if I tip.

[DP25]

But a tip is at the option of the diner. A service charge is not. I don't come from a country that really tips, however we still do sometimes for good service. However, what if the service isn't good, you still have to pay the service charge. Why should I be made to tip (service charge) staff if the service isn't good?

I'm sorry but when I go for a meal I want the real price stated on the menu beside each item. It is then my choice to tip or not. It shouldn't be the owners choice to decide if I tip.

Fair enough, but I'm fine with it it really goes to the staff. If the service is really bad complain to the manager and I'm sure they'll let you out of it. They are only doing it for large groups, some places in the US will do this for large groups too. It's just how large groups behave in restaurants, no one wants to leave the tip even though if they were eating alone they would tip, and the waiter gets screwed.

[Jingthing]

You have the personal choice to decide to give custom to restaurants with mandatory service charges, or not. You have no control, or even knowledge, when you DO choose to eat at such places whether what is clearly labeled as a service charge on the bill actually goes to the service staff. In Thailand, that is ... and I think that situation stinks. I am sure sometimes people are caught unawares and go to a restaurant with service charge without knowing it was one of those. But then they know and can decide not to go later if they just don't ever want to go to such places. That to me isn't the big ethical issue here.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Jingthing

[Jayman]

Thank you for taking the time to explain your actions to the board members here. Knowing that you give all of the service to charge to the service staff and only charge it on larger groups makes full sense to me. Also, it sounds like you made this decision after seeing how large groups effected your business and service staff in order to increase the money going to the service staff that have to get stuck with the larger groups. This seems very fair.

As JT posted in the OP not all establishments give all the charge to the staff. I point blank asked the staff in a new restaurant I like and they told me that they all share 5% and "the boss" keeps 5%. This is in a place that also charges the 7%vat on the bill total. This is NOT a thai food restaurant and as such definitely caters to the foreigner crowd. They try and offer all sorts of incentives to customers to get free food and come back like going to the website and register and make a good review on FB and the likes and you get free food. Of course I cannot mention the name of this place as they are a PAID sponsor here and we wouldn't want to go getting the thread shut down.

It would be very nice of this foreign owner who does watch these forums to make his case as to why he feels it necessary to add several fees onto the bill and not even give the full service fee to his staff. I definitely will bring it up to the owner but the past few times I've been there after finding out he has not. I keep going back as I do enjoy the food and want to have a chance to bring it up to the owner in person. Hopefully this thread might have a positive impact. One never knows.

[MJo]

If it's not in the menu then yes, it's a scam. But i usually find it mentioned in the menu. So i know the total cost before ordering.

I also agree it is much more convenient to have it included in the price as that saves the calculations.

For eating with English i use tip calculator app in my mobile or if i don't bother just throw in plenty to cover myself, sit back and enjoy the show

I think you may have misunderstood my issue. If it is on the bill, even if the customer didn't notice mention on the menu or whether it was on the menu or not, its a customers responsibility to read the bill. So going there, if it says 10 percent SERVICE CHARGE, and it turns out this money is not going to staff as a bonus to their salary, as in a tip, but rather a way to pour more money into the ownership funds, then that is the "scam" I am complaining about.

Like i said i don't care. I let the employer and the employees to sort it out between themselves.

I also reckon this obsession of "service" charge having to go to the staff is mainly american thing. Where i come from no one cares, the staff is getting paid fair salary without having to rely on tips or service charges. They are just a bonus, not part of your salary.

As long as the menu mentions there is extra added i'm happy. I know what it is going to cost me. I don't boycott places for the reason that they do not have same policies applicable in my home country. TiT as they say.

[Jingthing]

If it's not in the menu then yes, it's a scam. But i usually find it mentioned in the menu. So i know the total cost before ordering.

I also agree it is much more convenient to have it included in the price as that saves the calculations.

For eating with English i use tip calculator app in my mobile or if i don't bother just throw in plenty to cover myself, sit back and enjoy the show

I think you may have misunderstood my issue. If it is on the bill, even if the customer didn't notice mention on the menu or whether it was on the menu or not, its a customers responsibility to read the bill. So going there, if it says 10 percent SERVICE CHARGE, and it turns out this money is not going to staff as a bonus to their salary, as in a tip, but rather a way to pour more money into the ownership funds, then that is the "scam" I am complaining about.

Like i said i don't care. I let the employer and the employees to sort it out between themselves.

I also reckon this obsession of "service" charge having to go to the staff is mainly american thing. Where i come from no one cares, the staff is getting paid fair salary without having to rely on tips or service charges. They are just a bonus, not part of your salary.

As long as the menu mentions there is extra added i'm happy. I know what it is going to cost me. I don't boycott places for the reason that they do not have same policies applicable in my home country. TiT as they say.

I'm still not convinced you really get this issue. It's the lying part. Service charge means nothing to you? Do you understand the concept? Charge over above the bill for service. So that the service staff gets it is implied. Let me ask you this. If there was a mandatory 10 percent charge -- "Donation to national health service fund" -- would it bother you even a tiny bit to learn that the money was going into the restaurant owner's pocket instead of the stated fund? Edited February 12, 2012 by Jingthing

[MJo]

I'm still not convinced you really get this issue. It's the lying part. Service charge means nothing to you? Do you understand the concept? Charge over above the bill for service. So that the service staff gets it is implied. Let me ask you this. If there was a mandatory 10 percent charge -- "Donation to national health service fund" -- would it bother you even a tiny bit to learn that the money was going into the restaurant owner's pocket instead of the stated fund?

Yes i do, for you the word "service" means it is the same as tipping in US. Your perception and opinion is that it should go to the staff. And i can understand that. Culture where you come from this is the norm and expected and creates negative feelings in customers if this is not done. Usually for the reason that the staff has very low base salary, it's all based on "commissions" in form of tip or service charge.

My point is that my background is different. I don't see it as you do as where i come from we don't tip as you do in US. Where i come from minimum wages apply and staff in restaurants get paid much better than minimum wage. So there is no expectations from my side that service or whatever charges there is must absolutely go to the staff. I.e. staff is not depending these as part of their salary.

Sure i appreciate owners who give the staff bonus in form of 10% or even less of sales as commission above decent base salary. In fact i have more issues with owners that won't pay a decent salary but lure staff with promises of attractive 10% commissions or xxxx baht on tips. Usually the truth is in these cases is that the pay is very low. This is the scam in my books, make the staff work on small commissions. I.e. take the risk of running business out of the owners hands.

You could say that my approach to this is totally opposite of yours, and i firmly believe it is the cultural background we differ. You grew up in tipping society and i did the opposite. Culture where tips or commission based salary is non existent.

I also believe Thai system is geared towards decent base salary and tips and other bonuses being extra but not seen as part of salary. Sure the western concepts of business have gained ground also in Thailand so perhaps this is changing in front of our eyes and foreign owned businesses might apply their home country policies but still for me it does not matter what the extras are called as long as i know the total before ordering.

I said it before it is more convenient if all is included in the price but i also understand the low price ++ looks better in the sign. Take low cost airlines as an example. They add fuel, luggage, booking fees and what not. Sometimes these are more than the advertised fare.

If i'd have the power i'd go with the European way. You can split and break down your price as you like but by law you also need to show the final total cost of the product or service you are advertising or listing in your menu. It just might be that i prefer this being familiar with it....

[Jayman]

I'm american so I grew up with a tipping expectation (which I hate btw). I don't agree at all with how some places get away with paying their staff under min wage due to the fact that "tips" are expected to supplement the wages. In fact, in the US tips are taxable income and must be reported to the IRS.

So after talking with some EU friends in order to try and understand this "tipping" scam some more. They tell me that only in 5-star restaurants and resorts (due to the foreigners coming) do the staff expect to be tipped and will look down on you for not tipping. They also tell me that they have never seen in EU any sort of "service charge" that is exclusive of menu prices. When the bill comes you see the food price lower than what is on the menu and the vat is shown separately . But the TRUE price of each item on the menu is listed correctly. I am all to happy to switch the whole world over to this system. Where can I fill out the suggestion card and submit to get that implemented?

When comparing to airlines that also try and dupe the consumer into thinking they have lower prices it seems this has become the "norm". When comparing one airline to the other you know they are BOTH going to add fees that are going to be close to the same. My problem with this restaurant adding in extra fees is that some do and others don't. So as a consumer you have a hard time comparing prices for value. It's not apples to apples but more apples to oranges. I've no doubt this is done intentionally to confuse and deceive the consumer into buying from them vs a competitor. It's this practice that I find repulsive. If it's the standard in a society then I can handle it cause at least I know before entering the place that I will need to add x amount to everything I see. I can adapt to that. But here where it's hit or miss I ask, who wants to sit down and start ordering off the menu only to see in small letters on the back page something about extra fees being added to your bill and then feel the need to get up and walk out? Lame! Of course now that you know you can make your decision whether to return accordingly but trust me that you will get many dirty looks in Thailand for sitting down at a table to order and then get up and walk out.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Jayman

[Ulysses G.]

I also believe Thai system is geared towards decent base salary .

This statement kind of defeats the rest of your argument.

[MJo]

I also believe Thai system is geared towards decent base salary .

This statement kind of defeats the rest of your argument.

I don't see Thai's tipping in Thai places nor i see any service charge added etc. I.e. i believe Thai's have not traditionally used system where restaurant staff earns a living from tips or service charges. And i'm talking restaurants now, not beer bars or gogo's where they indeed get paid "commission" on drinks and other services.

Not an expert on Thai culture so correct me if i'm wrong. It just something i haven't seen.

Let's put it this way.

Let's say a employee is getting paid 15k a month. If he/she works in restaurant you feel obliged to tip her 20% on top salary. If there is service charge added you question the manager and name and shame here if it is not given to employees.

If he/she works in department store with same money do you still tip her 20% on your purchases. No you wont. Just because it's not a restaurant. Actually you find it outrageous if staff at department store would demand tip from you.

You continue to behave as you were still in Kansas. That's how you are programmed. Nothing bad about it, we all do the same in certain issues regardless where we come.

It seems that "i wont get it" regardless of how much we debate. But honestly, this is the opinion of someone not coming from the US system of having restaurant staff to work on commission basis. You asked for opinions so there you have it.