I Want To Put On 3Kg Of Muscle

[Briggsy]

loose lose weight

Sorry to be a pedant.

I'll be off now.

[tropo]

Just tell us straight out your doing an old mans workout and then we can judge it on its merits.

I'll answer this concern seperately as I think it is important to take age into consideration.

Yes, I am starting to become mindfull of my age in the gym and in particular with respect to keeping my aging joints healthy for as long as possible. I'm still younger than your mentor Mark Rippetoe but let's consider the OP is age 43. You are an expat so although you're keeping your age a secret I'm guessing you're no spring chicken either.

At 43 the OP will not be advised to train like a 20 year old. We don't know the OP's experience level in the gym, if any, but assuming he's inexperienced (judging by his newbie type questions) there is no way at age 43, he should start doing heavy lifting in exercises as potentially dangerous as squats and deadlifts. As you've stated, you started traininig at age 17 and have had a long experience with these exercises. It's a different matter entirely teaching a 40 plus newbie how to squat and deadlift safely and especially in the heavy 5 rep range.

I've had the experience training through my 20's, 30's, 40's and now into my 50's and I can tell you - age does matter. I've tried hard to ignore the number but it keeps popping up to remind me that things don't stay the same. Above all else, one must train smart.

Edited February 19, 2012 by tropo

[tropo]

I never use bench, or rather, i use handlebars when i do it, otherwise i mess up my shoulders.

That's wise. A straight bar forces your shoulders into an unfavourable position compared to the palms-facing position. This is why DB's can be a good idea for flat or incline presses as they allow freedom to change the hand position.

[tropo]

loose lose weight

Sorry to be a pedant.

I'll be off now.

LOL. I find it annoying too.

[robblok]

Just tell us straight out your doing an old mans workout and then we can judge it on its merits.

I'll answer this concern seperately as I think it is important to take age into consideration.

Yes, I am starting to become mindfull of my age in the gym and in particular with respect to keeping my aging joints healthy for as long as possible. I'm still younger than your mentor Mark Rippetoe but let's consider the OP is age 43. You are an expat so although you're keeping your age a secret I'm guessing you're no spring chicken either.

At 43 the OP will not be advised to train like a 20 year old. We don't know the OP's experience level in the gym, if any, but assuming he's inexperienced (judging by his newbie type questions) there is no way at age 43, he should start doing heavy lifting in exercises as potentially dangerous as squats and deadlifts. As you've stated, you started traininig at age 17 and have had a long experience with these exercises. It's a different matter entirely teaching a 40 plus newbie how to squat and deadlift safely and especially in the heavy 5 rep range.

I've had the experience training through my 20's, 30's, 40's and now into my 50's and I can tell you - age does matter. I've tried hard to ignore the number but it keeps popping up to remind me that things don't stay the same. Above all else, one must train smart.

Im 37 just kept my age a secret because else i might give out too much information. I am already guilty of that. Anyway i can tell you i know people in their 50ies still lifting strong.

I had a lot of experience with benchpress as i was an idiot when i was younger and thought it was one of the most important exercises. Now i know better and squat and deadlift rule. I just recently started my deadlifts say less then a year. So i am far from my max lift an max progress. Benchpress i dont expect that much from it anymore.

I would indeed advise the OP to start with deadlift and squat, if he can find a place where he is taught this the right way. Compound exercises are the way to go they release more growth hormone then any other exercise and even raise your test levels. Squat and deadlifts are the best.

There will be a time that i lift less as i do now but i dont really worry about it its all about how intense you train. Its a different story if parts of your body wont comply anymore then you have to find a way around it. But until then compounds with heavy weights will give you the best results.

[robblok]

I never use bench, or rather, i use handlebars when i do it, otherwise i mess up my shoulders.

That's wise. A straight bar forces your shoulders into an unfavourable position compared to the palms-facing position. This is why DB's can be a good idea for flat or incline presses as they allow freedom to change the hand position.

My problem with DB's is mounting them if you use a real heavy weight. Then the mounting is a danger during the exercise. Dont know if its less or more dangerous then as normal BP

[tropo]

I never use bench, or rather, i use handlebars when i do it, otherwise i mess up my shoulders.

That's wise. A straight bar forces your shoulders into an unfavourable position compared to the palms-facing position. This is why DB's can be a good idea for flat or incline presses as they allow freedom to change the hand position.

My problem with DB's is mounting them if you use a real heavy weight. Then the mounting is a danger during the exercise. Dont know if its less or more dangerous then as normal BP

Yes, you have to get the mounting technique down before they become a decent alternative but most people use far more weight than they actually need. You'll find that many cannot even push up the fist rep without assistance and then rely on the stretch reflex to bang out a set of half ass partial reps with their training partner doing half the work.

You want to impress me with your core strength - how much can you handle in a standing press? How much can you row in a strict fashion? How much can you bench press with a pause off your chest?

OK, so you know some 50 year olds who lift strong.... As a 50 year old I was able to press 105 kg x 5 (standing), Behind the neck press 90 kg x 8 (standing) Bent over row 130 kg x 5. Standing DB presses 100 lb DBs x 5 (strict reps with pause), Bench press 125kg x 10 (slow and strict). With arthritic knees - squat 135kg x 5, 125kg x 10. RDL (deadlift) 160kg x 10, Shrugs 220 kg x 12. Couldn't do one arm rows because Tony's maximum DB's were 135lbs and that's easy for 15 reps... and no one spots me - ever.

I started off as an olympic lifter in my teens but then a motorcycle accident in which I broke my leg (2 places) and my forearm made it difficult to clean a weight and squat heavy... but I've never stopped squatting.

I'm addicted to pushing heavy but have decided to rationalize my training - but don't get the impression I train like an old man running around the gym with chromed 5lb dumbbells. You'll have a very hard job keeping up with me for 2 hours in the gym. You want to see this old man train - you're welcome to joing me anytime and compare notes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but for your 5x5 workouts you're only doing 3 sets to failure. In a 5x5 workout the first 3 sets are warmups, the 4th set a sub-maximal preparation set for your final all out effort... and you try to increase your last set by 2.5 to 5.0% a week.

That's not a lot of work. You're got plenty of time to work on other bodyparts. How difficult would it be to bang out 3 or 4 sets of rows, curls, presses etc? If you can't you need to work on your stamina.

Ik ben ook een kaaskop.

Edited February 19, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

Tropo

I start with 4 warmup sets and a bit of cycling for my squats, then i start my 5 work sets and each and every one is heavy. After that my body is warm enough to do bench and deads. So no more warmup needed.

I have no need to impress anyone as i train alone in my home gym. So i don't really do it to show off. I am no where near 125kg x 10. I might get there i might not I still have enough time. But its not about weights for me. I do the 5 x 5 because the built in increase in weights allows for muscle growth. I haven't grown as much on any splits that i ever did. I do a 100% then a 80% and then a 100% day. (texas method if dont do it like that i burnout)

Deadlifts im sure to pass you in a couple of months. I just started deadlifting a couple of months ago so there is much room for improvement. But again i dont do deadlifts to impress, i do it because its the best core exercise you can do. My back is getting bigger as ever.

I have done splits and never got the same results, so for me this works and it goes on working.

I try to increase all sets by an amount of weight, i try to gain 5kg on deads a week 2,5 to 5kg on squat a week bench press just 2 kg a week because im near my end there. But each and every week i add weight. Im sure there are other variations to this but this is what i got from the books of Mark Rippetoe, and this is what works for me.

Nice to meet a fellow kaaskop, too bad its so expensive ere.

On non weight lifting days i do some spinning on my spinning bike but nothing fancy because i worry a burn out. I am on a calorie restricted diet so adding more load to my training might send me over the edge. Also a workout of 5x5 with 5 mins warmup on the bike and 3 warmup sets for squats is over 45 minutes of training. Dont forget these are all heavy exercises you need at least 90 seconds often 120 seconds between sets.

[poanoi]

I never use bench, or rather, i use handlebars when i do it, otherwise i mess up my shoulders.

That's wise. A straight bar forces your shoulders into an unfavourable position compared to the palms-facing position. This is why DB's can be a good idea for flat or incline presses as they allow freedom to change the hand position.

Exactly, i preferred a ~25 degree incline, and ~35 degree incline for me arse so i would stay put,

i had another bench in front of me to take the weights from to make it easier getting in position.

I say preferred because sadly i dropped the whole thing 15 years ago, if only i would have at least maintain my muscles

[robblok]

I never use bench, or rather, i use handlebars when i do it, otherwise i mess up my shoulders.

That's wise. A straight bar forces your shoulders into an unfavourable position compared to the palms-facing position. This is why DB's can be a good idea for flat or incline presses as they allow freedom to change the hand position.

Exactly, i preferred a ~25 degree incline, and ~35 degree incline for me arse so i would stay put,

i had another bench in front of me to take the weights from to make it easier getting in position.

I say preferred because sadly i dropped the whole thing 15 years ago, if only i would have at least maintain my muscles

Its easier to start over if you had muscle before, your body remembers and it comes back to you faster then a normal person. There is no reason not to train again.

The only problems i have had here is keeping the training up. Also in my native country it was easier for me to get all the proteins i wanted. I have now changed my diet and it works good too over here.

[poanoi]

Speaking of which, i used to drink (baby) gruel as substitute for proteinshake after a session since i had it free and it is loaded with stuff, so is gruel cheap here in pattaya, and where is it ?

I even bought a lifetime at tony's and did a couple of months out of 10 year, so i'm a good person to do biz with as tony can attest

and there are plenti go-go bars that also did good biz with me, and i got the gut to show for it

Edited February 20, 2012 by poanoi

[Wrong Turn]

sidjameson:

I know there are a few well informed posters on this forum regarding training. Hopefully one of you guys can help.

I am 43. 180cm. 79kg.

I do push ups and sit ups and jogging most days.

I want to add 3kg but obviously in a good way.

I definitely want the firm and toned look rather than the big look.

I'm chiming into your question a bit late in this thread.

There is not such thing as "tone" or "toning." This misnomer is a word created by the "fitness industry."

Better to exercise every day which burns the fat..i like it as i now find it much harder to keep a 6 pack.

Exercise is a key component of course, but that ol' saying goes: "diet is everything."

To keep/maintain or get a six-pack you have to reduce your Body Fat percentage (BF%) to around 7-9/10% depending on your body type. This will be done by exercise but also an extremely clean diet. Your Macros must be very clean.

But is it better to get to the e gym 3 times a week?

You need to have a split. A weight training and cardio regimen including a very clean diet, which will have a lot of protein (protein supplements).

I guess in a nutshell...can I 'tone' myself up to 82kg or do I need more?

Yes, you can add LBM (lean body mass) = muscle.

A weight training program built around core exercises and a clean diet with a lot of protein.

[Tolley]

I will add my two cents in here because I have been going to gyms for the last 30 years but I am not what you would call a body builder.

I was a top squash player who used the gym to get stronger not bigger.

If you want to put on weight you have to eat more and specifically protein and you have to severly limit carbs and then you have to lift heavy weights.

But most of the guys i see in the gym who lift heavy and are over 40 or 50 are a bit fat. And the ones that arent i am suspicious that they are on some sort of chemicals.

I recommend not trying to put on weight even thou you want more muscle. What is your body fat percentage now? If it is 20 percent or under and you are fit I would leave it well alone.

I am 54 and reckon I look better than most body builders of a similar age. I work out max 45 mins and do sets of 10 or less 80 percent of max approx and I do it only two or three times a week. I have a well defined body but no six pack or bulging muscles yet I am quite strong. And I am very careful with diet and take a lot of vitamins.

It is very hard as your T drops off to buld muscle without gaining fat, period.

[tropo]

I'm chiming into your question a bit late in this thread.

There is not such thing as "tone" or "toning." This misnomer is a word created by the "fitness industry."

Sorry to completely disagree with you there...

If you'd been hitting the gym for any length of time you'd know that if you take a long break the muscles become softer. "Toning" is merely improving the condition of the muslce - the capillary supply and strength thereof.

It would be most obvious on the bicep as even when people stop training there is usually little fat covering over it. Test your bicep after taking 3 months off from training - then look again after a month of solid work. The same priciple follows for all muscle groups.

[tropo]

To keep/maintain or get a six-pack you have to reduce your Body Fat percentage (BF%) to around 7-9/10% depending on your body type. This will be done by exercise but also an extremely clean diet. Your Macros must be very clean.

You need to have a split. A weight training and cardio regimen including a very clean diet, which will have a lot of protein (protein supplements).

A weight training program built around core exercises and a clean diet with a lot of protein.

Although a "clean" diet is preferable due to the increased nutitional value it is not an essential factor at all. It's merely a calories in/calories burned equation. You could get a 6-pack eating MacDonalds or KFC if you're losing fat by consuming less calories than you burn.

"lots of protein" cannot be utilized and would be wasted. Protein supplements are not essential at all. They would only be necessary if a person wasn't getting their requirements on a daily basis which is unlikely for most expats living in Thailand.

Very little muscle can be gained on a daily basis and this gain would require very little extra protein. The average Joe probably gets more protein than he needs to gain a few grams of muscle per day. 70% of the muscle is water. A large percentage consists of carbohydrates for energy storage. Ony 15 - 20% of a muscle is protein. In most cases this "lots of protein" you speak of would be broken down for energy or stored as fat.

Let's take an extreme case scenario of a natural bodybuilder who managed to gain 1kg of lean muscle per month. That's 12kg of muscle per year - quite a feat:

That's 33.3 grams of muscle gain per day on average. Let's say 16% of this is protein - which means in this case he's gained 5.3 grams of additional muscle protein per day over the year. Even if the metabolic requirements were triple that amount to build 33.3 grams of muscle it would require very little additional dietary protein.

You seriously think this requires lots of additional protein?

You'd be a good vehicle for a protein manufacturinig company. They always tout excessive protein requirements. At best you're wasting money. At worst you're putting stress on the kidneys and raising BUN.

Edited February 20, 2012 by tropo

[Forkinhades]

Hit the gym at least 5 days per week for multiple sets of heavy weight and low reps. In addition to a high protein diet, you should drink protein shakes and consider taking creatine.

I will echo that, apart from creatine, which just pumps water into your muscles on a temporary basis

[poanoi]

I did get a much improved stamina from Creatine.

I also ate OKG but i wasn't able to find it here in Pattaya.

[Shurup]

To keep/maintain or get a six-pack you have to reduce your Body Fat percentage (BF%) to around 7-9/10% depending on your body type. This will be done by exercise but also an extremely clean diet. Your Macros must be very clean.

You need to have a split. A weight training and cardio regimen including a very clean diet, which will have a lot of protein (protein supplements).

A weight training program built around core exercises and a clean diet with a lot of protein.

Although a "clean" diet is preferable due to the increased nutitional value it is not an essential factor at all. It's merely a calories in/calories burned equation. You could get a 6-pack eating MacDonalds or KFC if you're losing fat by consuming less calories than you burn.

"lots of protein" cannot be utilized and would be wasted. Protein supplements are not essential at all. They would only be necessary if a person wasn't getting their requirements on a daily basis which is unlikely for most expats living in Thailand.

Very little muscle can be gained on a daily basis and this gain would require very little extra protein. The average Joe probably gets more protein than he needs to gain a few grams of muscle per day. 70% of the muscle is water. A large percentage consists of carbohydrates for energy storage. Ony 15 - 20% of a muscle is protein. In most cases this "lots of protein" you speak of would be broken down for energy or stored as fat.

Let's take an extreme case scenario of a natural bodybuilder who managed to gain 1kg of lean muscle per month. That's 12kg of muscle per year - quite a feat:

That's 33.3 grams of muscle gain per day on average. Let's say 16% of this is protein - which means in this case he's gained 5.3 grams of additional muscle protein per day over the year. Even if the metabolic requirements were triple that amount to build 33.3 grams of muscle it would require very little additional dietary protein.

You seriously think this requires lots of additional protein?

You'd be a good vehicle for a protein manufacturinig company. They always tout excessive protein requirements. At best you're wasting money. At worst you're putting stress on the kidneys and raising BUN.

As a rule of thumb, an average active person requires 1g of pretein per pound of bodyweight. That is an unwritten rule avearage BB follows. Those who are on steroids require more, couch potatoes surely don't need that much.

1g per lb. of BW includes protein needed for mainenance of existing muscles and for the development of new muscles. A person has to be in a Positive Nitrogen Balance to build new muscles rather then negative. It means you have to consume more than your body utilize. There is no research that suggest extra protein put any strain on kidneys of a healthy individual. If you have any links to the research syaing otherwise, please post.

[tropo]

As a rule of thumb, an average active person requires 1g of pretein per pound of bodyweight. That is an unwritten rule avearage BB follows. Those who are on steroids require more, couch potatoes surely don't need that much.

1g per lb. of BW includes protein needed for mainenance of existing muscles and for the development of new muscles. A person has to be in a Positive Nitrogen Balance to build new muscles rather then negative. It means you have to consume more than your body utilize. There is no research that suggest extra protein put any strain on kidneys of a healthy individual. If you have any links to the research syaing otherwise, please post.

You get a free run to say anything you like without backing anything up but I need to show you scientific research to back up what I'm saying? If you start presenting scientific studies to prove what you're saying I'll do the same - deal?

I can find some very good research showing that 1g per kilogram of bodyweight is enough protein for an athlete. That's maintenance level protein consumption for an athlete. No one does scientific research on bodybuilders.

The 1 gram of protein per lb of bodyweight is merely an unscientific mantra of the bodybuilding community with absolutely no scientific research to back it up. How about you provide the research to prove it. The protein manufacturers will love you for it.

Edited February 21, 2012 by tropo

[Shurup]

I have read some of the "scientific" researches that suggest 1g per lb is way too much. The thing is those so called sciencists have never been in the gym themselves and they don't base their researches on bodybuilders but on the average Joe instead.

From what you have said in this tread so far, I want to applaud you say "you're da man"!!! You must be very good at what you do and how you look as you completely ignore and destroy all the rules BBs all over the world were following for decades. I mean millions of people... I can't believe I fall into that "silly" category. You know, you should write a book, it will make you rich.

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[Shurup]

You get a free run to say anything you like without backing anything up but I need to show you scientific research to back up what I'm saying? If you start presenting scientific studies to prove what you're saying I'll do the same - deal?

You stated extra protein is bad for kidneys, not me, perhaps you have a supporting link to this claim. I don't recall throwing out statements like this one but instead stating the unwritten rules of the BB community. I can provide a lot of links to a number of BB forums. Can you support your claim?

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[tropo]

I have read some of the "scientific" researches that suggest 1g per lb is way too much. The thing is those so called sciencists have never been in the gym themselves and they don't base their researches on bodybuilders but on the average Joe instead.

From what you have said in this tread so far, I want to applaud you say "you're da man"!!! You must be very good at what you do and how you look as you completely ignore and destroy all the rules BBs all over the world were following for decades. I mean millions of people... I can't believe I fall into that "silly" category. You know, you should write a book, it will make you rich.

Not as rich as you would become if you can prove scientifically that (natural) bodybuilders need that much protein. You'd "be da man" all the protein manufacturers would embrace.

The gist of my comments were merely to suggest that a beggining bodybuilder requiring 3kg of extra muscle will most likely not need any extra protein past what they are currently consuming and if they do need more, not very much.

This will continue to be a hotly debated subject. Surely you didn't expect everyone to just agree?

[tropo]

You get a free run to say anything you like without backing anything up but I need to show you scientific research to back up what I'm saying? If you start presenting scientific studies to prove what you're saying I'll do the same - deal?

You stated extra protein is bad for kidneys, not me, perhaps you have a supporting link to this claim. I don't recall throwing out statements like this one but instead stating the unwritten rules of the BB community. I can provide a lot of links to a number of BB forums. Can you support your claim?

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

I"m not the slightest bit interested in links to bodybuilding forums. I already have them and have read and participated on several.

This is what I said: "At worst you're putting stress on the kidneys and raising BUN"

Note use of the phrase "at worst" and it was indicated as "stress" and elevated BUN. Excess protein does both but won't necessarily cause a problem - but it can. That's precisely why I used the words "at worst" but you took it to mean that excess protein IS bad for the kidneys in all cases.

Edited February 21, 2012 by tropo

[Briggsy]

Tropo 1 Shurup 0

[tropo]

As I stated, the worst case scenario of eating a high protein diet is "stress" on the kidneys, which results from an increase in BUN.

Here's the results of an 11 year study of 1,634 women which indicates a lot more than just "stress" from eating a high protein diet IF they already have mildly reduced kidney function.

From the Harvard University Gazette: http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/2003/03.13/09-kidney.html

The 2 key conclusions in this study (excerpts from article linked above):

1. "We found that among women with mildly reduced kidney function - about 25 percent of individuals in our study - a higher-protein diet may lead to accelerated decline in kidney function compared with a lower-protein diet"

2. "Importantly, however, we also demonstrated that for women with normal renal function, high-protein diets appeared to have no adverse impact on their kidney function."

If anyone decides to embark on a very high protein diet don't forget to drink a lot of water and get a kidney function test to make sure your kidneys are functioning normally. That's about a 200 - 300 baht test in Thailand.

[tropo]

I was contacted privately this evening by another forum member who knows me personally. He is aware that I consume a lot of protein and suggested that I'm not being honest on here.

I had intended to cover this topic later, but it wouldn't hurt to mention it now.

He also knew that I am pre-diabetic but for some reason he didn't make the connection. Pre-diabetes in broad terms is a condition where your fasting blood glucose levels are above 100 mg/dl but under 126 mg/dl. There is usually also higher than normal blood glucose levels after food. Basically you're not normal but not yet bad enough to be classified as Type 2 diabetic.

This condition also goes by the name of "insulin resistant" which is less shocking and a term doctors prefer in an effort not to scare their patients. In actual fact scaring them is probably a better approach in that it may entice the patient to do something proactive to reverse their condition.

If I increase my protein and fat consumption while decreasing carbohydrates, combined with exercise, I am able to keep my blood glucose levels at normal, healthy levels.

There you go - a valid reason to consume more protein. Despite the increased protein consumption extra muscle is still very hard to come by and a very slow process indeed.

I do test kidney function (Uric acid, BUN and Creatinine) at least once every 3 - 6 months along with a string of other blood tests. I like to keep a close eye on things. My BUN tends to sit near the high end of normal and the uric acid is up in the 6 - 7 mg/dl range (3.5 - 8.0 is normal).

Edited February 21, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

I consume around 1,2 to 1,5 grams of protein per kg of body weight. For me that is about enough if i wanted it i could increase it with a few protein shakes or whatever. But i doubt i need much more. I read the reports and even reports about bodybuilders and i just don't believe you need 2 grams. But then again i'm not a pro also i am trying to loose a bit of weight and i i wanted to go higher in proteins it would be hard to get the right other nutrients.

[tropo]

I find on a high protein, low carb diet I'm thinking about food all the time. Obviously I cannot increase fat too much as it is too calorie dense. Protein just doesn't satisfy the appetite like carbs and fat do.

[aussiebebe]

what's the best way to tone at home with as little paraphernalia as possible?

Make your own for B500; I did:

http://www.youtube.c...pension+trainer

Works great. No more gyms for me! I take it along when traveling, too.

That's a great idea, I watched the video, would you mind giving a few tips about where to buy the straps and handles in Bangkok, please?

[JSixpack]

what's the best way to tone at home with as little paraphernalia as possible?

Make your own for B500; I did:

http://www.youtube.c...pension+trainer

Works great. No more gyms for me! I take it along when traveling, too.

That's a great idea, I watched the video, would you mind giving a few tips about where to buy the straps and handles in Bangkok, please?

PM sent. If there's much interest, I can give instructions here.