What To Do When The Real Estate Agency Doesn'T Give Back Your Deposit?

[Strawberryfields]

I am a longterm resident in Chiang Mai, never had problems with getting back my deposit in many years I have lived here. For the very first time I am dealing with a real estate agency (I rented an apartment for a month) and after I moved out and left the apartment in its original state, they changed their mind and decided not to give back the deposit. Many reasons were given, and the last reason they told me was that they gave the deposit to the owner of the apartment and it is he who doesn't want to give it back.

I wonder if any of you have been in the same situation, and if so, what did you do?

PM's are welcome.

[slapout]

The "we gave the deposit to ower" sounds suspect to say the least. If they handled the rent, inspection, etc, they are the owners paid agent.

If the deposit is due you and you have supporting documents, go in to their place of business, talk to the boss, if no safication, make a general pest of yourself on a regular basis,., inform potential customers, etc.

[naboo]

Call the police. Got me a deposit back on their arrival.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Sounds very peculiar to be paying a deposit to a real estate agent in the first place, and not to the owner.

Anyway, all the more reasons not to use real estate agents. Much more trouble (and expense) than they're worth.

[ARISTIDE]

Provided that you return the room in the original condition they must give you the deposit.

Call the police and get the police to talk to them. They think you wouldn't do it. I'm pretty sure they will give you back.

[shepsel]

Is the real estate agency known among the westerners in town?

If you held up your end of the contract entirely, go to them again with a third party, and ask again why they are not giving up your deposit. I have heard that some real estate companies act as management companies for the owner and collect rent and handle all the paperwork. If you were entirely correct you could mention to them that you will give them bad publicity by bringing it up to the Expat Club, City Life Magazine and other English speaking publications.

[tango]

Deposit returns can be problematic, to wit: ^ having to "call the police".

In many cases whomever you gave the deposit to, spent it.

Many consider your deposit as their due. Depite your having left the rental in tip-top condition, they will argue it was not.

I stayed at a nice spot on Huey Kaew just up from the Phucomb intersection years ago; as I was attempting to get my deposit returned, the desk manager said they deducted several thousand baht for a missing shower curtain. I immediately invited the manger up to the flat to see the shower curtain still there. I got my deposit returned, reluctantly.

The management of the newer DOMEicile on Thapae three years ago attempted to retain my deposit by saying I did not give them a month's notice, despite the fact that I had done so: I had it noted on the previous month's bill by the duty clerk at the time. Management conceded.

Try to negotiate any rental deposit to the minimum of 1 month: any longer and attempts to get the deposit returned are indeed problematic, in many cases.

[hellodolly]

I think the tourist police can some times be helpful. I know where I live one of the cranky residents would threaten them for some thing or other and they would generally concede. Seems they don't want to deal with the Tourist Police.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Deposit returns can be problematic, to wit: ^ having to "call the police".

In many cases whomever you gave the deposit to, spent it.

Many consider your deposit as their due. Depite your having left the rental in tip-top condition, they will argue it was not.

Well.. These days I can answer these kind of topics from the position of someone very close to a landlady, and it's definitely likely that the deposit (while in theory is just to cover any unforeseen expenses like stuff breaking or electricity or other bills left unpaid) is also used to fulfil specific requests from the renter and/or to do final work on the house so it's ready to move in. (Doesn't change that it's still a deposit that has to be paid back, but it may get used like an interest-free loan..) For example, certain things may be a dealbreaker to the renter, but hey, if there's 36,000 baht in deposit coming in then that makes it easy to paint something a different color, provide internet as part of the deal or add some furniture here and there.

But there's never any doubt that a deposit is a deposit; there will absolutely be a rent contract, in Thai (and optionally in English) so everyone is 100% aware of what's in it, and it really is not open to interpretation that a deposit is a deposit and will be refunded. Furthermore, this is a legally binding contract; both the receipt of the deposit and the refunding of it at the end should be documented with a receipt, bank transfer and/or other paperwork. Always request this. In addition, it would be good to have detailed photographs of the state of the house, especially if something is not in 100% working order when moving in.

Now, it is possible that when the rent contract is up, say after a year, the renter decides to move out on short notice (or no notice.) Then it could be a bit of a scramble for the landlord to then come up with that 36,000 baht. A slight delay is likely, at the very least to wait until the final electric and phone bill is in so there are no sudden surprises.

If I were the landlord I would always be very up-front and transparent about it; perhaps when the rent contract is near the end then I would enquire if they'd like to stay another year or not. And I would especially not leave any doubt that the deposit belongs to the renter and will be paid back, and when. That's just common business sense when you're in a supplier-customer relationship, you always want to be clear in any communications and set expectations that you will live up to.

If there are genuine deductions to be made for missing or broken items (i.e. not just expected wear) then I would supply bills that show the actual cost. Attempts to over-charge for minor things is unfortunate and should not be accepted. (Offering to fix it yourself may also work.) Usually repairs would not be expensive.

Anyway, in case a deposit is not immediately paid back then I would offer to let the landlord pay it over a month or two. Cash-flow can be an issue, many people renting out property aren't filthy rich.

Try to negotiate any rental deposit to the minimum of 1 month: any longer and attempts to get the deposit returned are indeed problematic, in many cases.

One month might work if the house is completely un-furnished and there are no appliances whatsoever, and there is no phone in the landlord's name, etc. However when there is a lot of stuff or monthly services involved then one month rent likely won't be feasible. Doesn't hurt to try of course; likely everything in Thailand it's a bit of a negotiation.

Edited February 14, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[^_^]

Weird.

I am one of the few whom first started a Real Estate Agency in Chiang Mai many years ago and so I know how most if not all the Real Estate Agencies/Agents operates.

The Rental Deposit is always/must be made to the Owner instead of the Real Estate Agency/Agent as the Real Estate Agencies/Agents do not have the authority to lease out the property directly to you and hence they do not have the authority to collect Rent and/or Deposit on the Owner's behalf; unless in some cases but very uncommon (only came across once in 9 years) the Owner has given Power of Attorney to the Real Estate Agency/Agent to lease and manage the property on his/her behalf but in this case, you could still hold both the Real Estate Agency and the Owner responsible.

In recent years, there are more and more cases of Owners fleeing Tenant's Rental Deposit. Hence, there is a possibility that could be the case when your Real Estate Agent says that it was the Owner whom refused to give you back your deposit.

Whose name was on the receipt of your Rental Deposit? Presumably you must have a receipt for the money you paid and for what purpose? Probably the receiptient of your deposit may be in the contract too?

Not taking sides here between the Owner and the Real Estate Agency/Agent but if there is a receipt for your Rental Deposit, it's the issuer of the receipt of your deposit you have to go after. If the issuer of the receipt is your Real Estate Agency/Agent, there is a very high probability that they may have illegally collected rent and/or deposit on the Landlord's/Landlady's behalf. Or even if the Real Estate Agency/Agent may have collected rent and deposit legally with Power of Attorney from the Owner, and the money may have gone to the Owner, you may still hold both parties responsible. Go after the issuer of the receipt of your Rental Deposit and let the Real Estate Agency/Agent and Owner sought out their own issues themselves.

Anyway, regardless the issuer of the receipt of your deposit is the Real Estate Agency/Agent or the Owner, a trip down to the police station within the jurisdiction of the Rental Property and a couple phone calls from the police to the Real Estate Agency/Agents and/or the Owner would solve the problem in most cases; the Real Estate Agency/Agent and/or the Owner is betting on the hope that most farangs are "presumably" rich and wouldn't go to the trouble of making it a legal issue and the hassles to get the deposit back. Therefore, in most cases, they would back down the instance they received a call from the Police.

I highly suggest you make a police report and take it from there. If your Real Estate Agency/Agent suggests that it was the Owner whom refused to give you back your Rental Deposit, it would help if you could get them to go down to the police station with you. If the story is true that it is the owner whom refused to give you back your deposit, try to get the Real Estate Agency/Agent on your side and make make a police report with the assistance of your Real Estate Agency/Agent would help greatly.

Hope that helps!

P.S. - To WTK, please don't be too quick in your judgement on Real Estate Agencies/Agents if you do not fully understand how each agency/agent operates and how they could help you. For instance, the contract, one provided by the Landlord/Landlady himself/herself, and a contract provided by a middleman-agency-agent in protection of both parties instead of a one-sided protection contract without any penalties of the Owner. Though, I do not deny the fact that there are many agencies/agents whom are just there for the commission and are totally useless when problem occurs but please try not to generalize.

[Dante99]

The OP rented the place for one month, how much was the deposit? Can't be much unless he has not learned very well as a long term resident of CM.

I really wonder about all the thoughts of going to the police. First, it is a civil matter not a criminal matter and the police deal mostly if not exclusively in criminal matters. They might assist in a negotiation but that is just a might and then you are expected to pay for the service. Second, going to the police will not be received favorably by the other party. However they may just laugh because they have a good police connection who will fix it favorably for them as he has done with other issues in the past. It is even possible that the landlord is police, does the op even know? Finally, even Thais for good reason are reluctant to go to the police about things and it has often been advised that people including foreigners avoid them if at all possible.

Best to negotiate politely with the person you paid the money to. If that does not work, go away for a while and then come back and try again. Most farangs get pissed off early in the process and end up paying for it. Getting pushy or going to the police are really the least desirable last desperation resorts.

Long ago said and still important, Thailand is a country of relationships, not a country of laws.

[Lizard2010]

I have a freind who was renting a unit from a Thai lady who lived vertualy next door.

When she gave her notice to leave the B**** started to give her a hard time.

She said a few things to her and she had to give the B**** 14000 Baht.

Other wise she would call the police.

This Thai lady was one, with increasing the monies for electrcity, it was all in one meter.

Constantly going throught her unit when not home.

From what i have seen over the years it is hard to deal with some of the owners.

Most people are lucky, others can have a landlord from hell.

[udonguy]

Is the real estate agency known among the westerners in town?

If you held up your end of the contract entirely, go to them again with a third party, and ask again why they are not giving up your deposit. I have heard that some real estate companies act as management companies for the owner and collect rent and handle all the paperwork. If you were entirely correct you could mention to them that you will give them bad publicity by bringing it up to the Expat Club, City Life Magazine and other English speaking publications.

careful - one very well know agent has strong connections to the Expat Club and others less so but still connected

[ludditeman]

@WTK

36kbht deposit, that would be for one hell of a property!

@the people who get unwelcome visitors in their homes.

I find changing the locks when I move in, including a new front gate padlock, discourages such impoliteness.

Lock barrels are very cheap in Thailand.

Edited February 14, 2012 by ludditeman

[WinnieTheKhwai]

@WTK

36kbht deposit, that would be for one hell of a property!

I kind of wondered about that. What is typical for a deposit? Let's say that's separate from the number of months rent to be paid in advance. (How many?)

I think it's not so much the size of the property that matters (or even the rent) but the value of the fixtures and furniture? The more stuff is in there, the more can break..

What does everyone think are typical deposits/advance months?

[ludditeman]

@WTK

36kbht deposit, that would be for one hell of a property!

I kind of wondered about that. What is typical for a deposit? Let's say that's separate from the number of months rent to be paid in advance. (How many?)

I think it's not so much the size of the property that matters (or even the rent) but the value of the fixtures and furniture? The more stuff is in there, the more can break..

What does everyone think are typical deposits/advance months?

Unfurnished, or full of tat, I will give 1 month

Furnished, up to 3k more if had full equipment, fridge, cooker, washing m/c, air-con, but I would probably just look for a different place where they want 1 month.

I ALWAYS move house if the landlord asks for a rent increase, no exceptions.

My last house was 10k deposit (1 month + 3k)

My current house is 5k deposit (1 month)

I don't know anyone in CM who pays more than 1 month at the moment, lots of empty properties to choose from.

Edited February 14, 2012 by ludditeman

[udonguy]

@WTK

36kbht deposit, that would be for one hell of a property!

I kind of wondered about that. What is typical for a deposit? Let's say that's separate from the number of months rent to be paid in advance. (How many?)

I think it's not so much the size of the property that matters (or even the rent) but the value of the fixtures and furniture? The more stuff is in there, the more can break..

What does everyone think are typical deposits/advance months?

normally I ask for 2 months - standard in chiang mai and OFTEN it is held by the agent

edit: I own several condos here - and never, ever below 2 months - example? one room rented at Hillside Four 30,000 a month rent and 60,000 held why??? because of the fixtures and fittings - 30,000 is peanuts when you spend 1 million on renovation

Edited February 14, 2012 by udonguy

[Semper]

I don't know anyone in CM who pays more than 1 month at the moment

I do, 2 month. But as usual, I have a back-up plan.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Semper

[czGLoRy]

friend of mine had a 150,000 deposit stolen from a house owner in World Club Land by Hang Dong, couldn't get it back, went through a long process with lawyers, and eventually it took over a year and he never got anything back, this was just recently "resolved".

[nicksal37]

Nearly two years ago I rented a house in San Sai for 20,000bt a month off a divorced 26 year old Thai female.The house was bought for her by her ex-farang husband.She was so pleased we rented it to us as she said how embarrassed she was to ask for 200bt of fuel when filling up her car! She was going to share a room with a girlfriend and live off the rent. One week later she told us she was going to Europe to see a boyfriend.Now she had two months deposit in her pocket,(40,000bt) Ok I wished her well. Two months before we wanted to move out I told her that I am happy to make things easy for her as far as the deposit was concerned.40,000bt is a lot for her to find and I said we will not be paying rent for the last two months. Of course she said that we cant do that.I know it is technically illigal but what do you think the chances of us getting our money back? We left the house clean and the garden emmaculate.Does anyone on this forum blame me?

[ataloss]

^^^^ Ref: "I ALWAYS move house if the landlord asks for a rent increase, no exceptions." Same here, without exception. I tell them when I sign the lease that if they decide to increase the rent then they are implying they no longer want me in the house and I will move. My last house is still unrented and empty after 4 years.

I have rented houses in CMai for various times over the past 20 years and always gave only the first month's rent as deposit, furnished or not, except for the now empty one where I had given the 1st and last: that was interesting as the landlady kept demanding the last month's rent after my giving notice when she wanted to increase, until she re-read the lease.

While they may not have spent the deposit, they likely need time to scrounge it up as it probably went to the realtor as the fee.

Take your time; as noted above there are a multitude of places for rent. Be prepared to walk.The rents keep going higher because farangs keep driving them higher by paying too much. Be advised these escalating rents are aimed at farangs.Ms Somchai hears that farangs pay a lot and she wants in on the action.

Thais seldom rent 2nd-hand houses, and if they do its temporary and not over 5000-8000B a month: Anything more is effectively monthly finance charges on a new home.

The U$ dollar has been low for several years now; U$30 vs 45 when I arrived. But realty has never compensated for the decline. Realty 'agents' are partly to blame for escalating rents, but it is we who sign the lease.

Take a look at the host of realty sites covering CMai and you will see thousands upon thousands of houses for rent or for sale, some for a decade or more. When, as an example, 'Avril' a realtor on the Chiang Mai magazine classifieds, keeps saying prices are 'fixed', you have only yourself to blame if you believe her. Nothing but nothing is fixed: it's your hard-earned money after all.

But i digress, back to my coffee

[spidermike007]

Try being nice, polite, but firm. Make alot of constant contact. Do not go away. Call every day. Show up at rental agency. If none of this works, go to the tourist police. Publish names and addresses on the internet, a d be sure to embarrass the owner as much as you can. It is your duty to do so n

[ludditeman]

^^^^ Ref: "I ALWAYS move house if the landlord asks for a rent increase, no exceptions." Same here, without exception. I tell them when I sign the lease that if they decide to increase the rent then they are implying they no longer want me in the house and I will move. My last house is still unrented and empty after 4 years.

I have rented houses in CMai for various times over the past 20 years and always gave only the first month's rent as deposit, furnished or not, except for the now empty one where I had given the 1st and last: that was interesting as the landlady kept demanding the last month's rent after my giving notice when she wanted to increase, until she re-read the lease.

While they may not have spent the deposit, they likely need time to scrounge it up as it probably went to the realtor as the fee.

Take your time; as noted above there are a multitude of places for rent. Be prepared to walk.The rents keep going higher because farangs keep driving them higher by paying too much. Be advised these escalating rents are aimed at farangs.Ms Somchai hears that farangs pay a lot and she wants in on the action.

Thais seldom rent 2nd-hand houses, and if they do its temporary and not over 5000-8000B a month: Anything more is effectively monthly finance charges on a new home.

The U$ dollar has been low for several years now; U$30 vs 45 when I arrived. But realty has never compensated for the decline. Realty 'agents' are partly to blame for escalating rents, but it is we who sign the lease.

Take a look at the host of realty sites covering CMai and you will see thousands upon thousands of houses for rent or for sale, some for a decade or more. When, as an example, 'Avril' a realtor on the Chiang Mai magazine classifieds, keeps saying prices are 'fixed', you have only yourself to blame if you believe her. Nothing but nothing is fixed: it's your hard-earned money after all.

But i digress, back to my coffee

This is all so true, foreigners are stupid with money.

They will pay higher rents and a bigger deposit than Thais.

They will accept rent increases, Thais won't.

The last house I left the landlady wanted to put the rent up from 7k to 8k a month.

She didn't manage to rent it again (yet), I would have still been there if not for her being daft.

As a landlord

Better to buy a condo for 300k and rent it for 3k (ROI 12% pa).

You don't have to worry about the contents, it's always rented & the ROI is higher.

If you have more to invest in property, buy more units.

@udonguy

What ROI are you getting?

Are you always fully rented?

Edited February 14, 2012 by ludditeman

[Beng]

The "we gave the deposit to ower" sounds suspect to say the least. If they handled the rent, inspection, etc, they are the owners paid agent.

If the deposit is due you and you have supporting documents, go in to their place of business, talk to the boss, if no safication, make a general pest of yourself on a regular basis,., inform potential customers, etc.

Spot on Rich, and slapout on haggis

[elektrified]

Everyone I know that rents property (Thais and farangs) all pay a 2 month deposit. That is standard.

When I owned rental properties in the USA I always took 1st, last and security deposit - basically 3 months. I would not have it any other way.

[udonguy]

Nearly two years ago I rented a house in San Sai for 20,000bt a month off a divorced 26 year old Thai female.The house was bought for her by her ex-farang husband.She was so pleased we rented it to us as she said how embarrassed she was to ask for 200bt of fuel when filling up her car! She was going to share a room with a girlfriend and live off the rent. One week later she told us she was going to Europe to see a boyfriend.Now she had two months deposit in her pocket,(40,000bt) Ok I wished her well. Two months before we wanted to move out I told her that I am happy to make things easy for her as far as the deposit was concerned.40,000bt is a lot for her to find and I said we will not be paying rent for the last two months. Of course she said that we cant do that.I know it is technically illigal but what do you think the chances of us getting our money back? We left the house clean and the garden emmaculate.Does anyone on this forum blame me?

it's not exactly ethical UNLESS you know she will cheat you on the deposit personally I would do 50/50 don't pay last month and ask for just one month back

[udonguy]

This is all so true, foreigners are stupid with money.

They will pay higher rents and a bigger deposit than Thais.

They will accept rent increases, Thais won't.

The last house I left the landlady wanted to put the rent up from 7k to 8k a month.

She didn't manage to rent it again (yet), I would have still been there if not for her being daft.

As a landlord

Better to buy a condo for 300k and rent it for 3k (ROI 12% pa).

You don't have to worry about the contents, it's always rented & the ROI is higher.

If you have more to invest in property, buy more units.

@udonguy

What ROI are you getting?

Are you always fully rented?

7/8% is normal after agents, repairs etc. no way would I buy lots of 300k rooms and rent out at 3k - more risk, lower standard of tenants and LOTS of work. I have a few 1m up and have about 75% rented at any one time which is fine.

[Thailand]

Some years years ago paid 3 months up front for 1 year rental while our house was being built.

Term completed and owner initially refused to return the deposit and would not speak to me.

My next indirect contact with the owner was via 1 phone call from a Thai lawyer friend of mine and the money was in our bank account within 2 days.

[anselpixel]

So far, I've not been at all impressed with the Thai real estate agents I've run across. After several unpleasant experiences with trying to rent a house, I had to accept the fact: they simply do not come to business deals with the same assumptions common for westerners.

I have had three landlords here, and two ran the gamut of excuses before finally returning my deposit. On the up side, I have gotten my money back every time, but not without a fight.

[PoodMaiDai]

Yet another reason I go out of my way not to deal with Thais when money is involved.

I'd either call the police or park out front of their office and tell everyone walking in what they did to you. Be a pain in their arse.