Smoke, Smog, Dust 2012 Chiang Mai

[Thailand]

How much miore proof do people need that the improvement is entirely due to the success of the current weather control campaign?

How much more proof do people need that the "smog smoke & dust" is simply a figment of their imaginations.

Oops,where's those mountains gone!

Edited March 4, 2012 by Thailand

[puck2]

Priceless - #363/15 - posted 2012-03-01 17:03:03

………

This chart deals with monthly and yearly averages. The meaningful representation of PM counts are usually 24-hour or 8-hour averages.' It appears that you have not grasped the difference between data collection and information presentation. The raw data for my graphs and tables are of course the 24-hour averages posted by the Pollution Control Department (PCD) on their website. However, there are frequent questions on this forum like 'When does the worst air polluution usually occur?' or 'What is the air quality usually like during October?. I somehow doubt that the people asking such questions would feel very enlightened by the following graph, showing the raw 24-hour averages since the turn of the century:

……

German Wiki says i.a.:

Particulate matter of 10 micrometer and below are dangerous for our health. There are a lot of sources for PM, like

a) Fossil fuels

forest and bush fires

c) scoot production from a) +

d) from industrial processes

e) natural ashes and dust (volcanoes, even from POM = Particulate Organic Matter, sea salt and stone dust.

Here we are discussing the humane made forest and field fires. There have been a lot aspects and problems already been approached.

First I would like to say thank you to all who tried to bring light into the background of this ugly health threatening pollution.

But some days before, I questioned : Did the experts fall victim to statistics ? (#212)

Before I had put there a question mark, now not any more. I cannot believe in this table by using my memory, my natural and some common sense and doing same math. My result:

If you believe in the bible and that Jesus walked over the water, then you can believe in the Thai statistics you rely on, especially when Thai economic interests are hit.

My memory tells me that the pollutions these days are as bad as never before within the last 7 years. This is not so only in CM but also here in the MHS province, too. There and here so many people are complaining about their health problems which they did not have in 2007, to cite it as an ugly example. Since more than 1 week the mountains in the background of our valley are invisible in the morning until high noon and later on 1-2 hours before the darkness because of the dust in the air. It’s not a natural fog. Our grandchildren and we didn’t have any health problem in 2007, but now.

Of course, these aren’t scientific criterions, but this huge number of affected people is an indicator for the worse/worst situation.

Priceless comes every time to the conclusion the average pollution goes down year by year. As demonstrated in this table with monthly results:

Why do I doubt?

My excel table

relates to March 2007, on daily results. The monthly average for March 2007 is stated in the table #136 (above) - exactly 161,7

Comments to my excel table.

- The monthly summary for C.H. (City Hall) is 4.289,0 µg/m3 and for Yup.(=Yuparaj) is 4.689,30 µg/m3 .

1. It is obvious that the table - he relies on - has some days without any numbers. At least astonishing, just the days with a high/the highest pollution have a blanc. Even this year 2012 the measurement stations don’t deliver all days with a very, very high pollution. What a coincidence! Accidentally or incidentally?

2. The C.H. had 29 days, Pur. had 26 days of measurement. Must repeat it, the missing days had a very high pollution!

3. The monthly average results are derived: monthly total divided by the number of days. My table shows then, the average for C.H is 161,7, the average for Pur. is 164,96. Table from Priceless (PCB) shows the lower amount.

4. On the right side in my table I added some measurement results for the missing days, transferred from the other station or estimated (lowly!)

Result: City Hall had then at least a monthly average of ~180 micrometer

5. In general, if you rely on only 2 measurement stations only in such a big province like CM then this table is disputable at all. Scientific?

6. If you assume about 25% of the air pollution come from the neighbouring countries (=not home made), then you should also consider that a lot of CM pollution does not go down in the CM province.

7. There are good reasons (by experience) not to believe in each Thai statistic when it concerns Thai interests - look above at N r. 1 + 4)

After all, it’s the trust in these (dubious) tables of the PCD.

The following is astonishing, too. The fires are starting earlier year by year. Last year the first day of the rainy season was 1. of March. Surprisingly, so that the people did not yet do their fire job. This year they have been very sensitive, so that the announcement of the very competent ...ehm science minister - there will be 27 typhoons this year - panicked the people here.

[MESmith]

Today we went in search of clean air on the top of Doi Inthanon. Amazingly clean & rather chilly, and very windy Problem was the wife & kids were moaning about it being too cold, around 12C - no pleasing some folk. Must remember to take sweaters, next time. Coming back down, around the chedi you could see big fires lower down to the west & south. In fact, to the west towards Mae Chaem valley, you couldn't see anything. The lower slopes of Inthanon, are dry & brown, but so far, at least near the road, show little sign of burning. Up higher up, the forest is lush & green. The waterfalls refreshing. Worth the trip

Took the new "ring road" south of Pa Sang, crossing the Ping over the new bridge. All around that route, the rice fields are dry & brown - no water for them, I guess. The smog in the morning around Lamphun was pretty bad, compared to San Kamphaeng area. On our return journey, there was huge plume of smoke SE of Lamphun, over by the edge of the valley.

Btw, I imagine the smog has been getting better around CM the last few days, because of the local windy conditions we've been experiencing. Blowing away all the local pollution.

[chiang mai]

Can somebody remind me what the benefit is of this thread, I've been involved with this subject on almost an anual basis since 2007 and there seems to be very little difference between threads when the various years are compared - people complain, some say they are going to move, stats are produced, stats are challenged, people fall out and burning season ends! Thinking about it I doubt that we know much more today about the characteristics of the pollution than we did say five/six years ago, although I suppose it can be argued that threads such as this have made people more aware. But nobody has managed to come up with anything that is predictive to forewarn how bad the pollution might be or when it might occur, everyone seems to be fixated looking at historical data which is rolled out again and again adnauseum, seems like the collective brains of TV should have been able to accomplish more somehow!

[MESmith]

Can somebody remind me what the benefit is of this thread,

I think if it convinces one expat not to relocate to CM or northern Thailand, then it's been a worthwhile thread.

[chiang mai]

Can somebody remind me what the benefit is of this thread,

I think if it convinces one expat not to relocate to CM or northern Thailand, then it's been a worthwhile thread.

I used to think that back in 2007, especially when the "it's really not that bad" brigade were trupeting their story, subsequently I've come to believe that nothing will stop folks from moving here although hopefully now more will be able to do so in light of all the facts,. it's kind dispappointing however that nothing more tangible has been accomplished. I do think that constant reviews of statistics and constant backwards looking is detrimental to progress, for goodness sake, we all know it's bad out there and arguing about a couple of percentage points doesn't change anything.

Edited March 4, 2012 by chiang mai

[wynzlo]

Has anyone come across a legitimate comparison between smoking cigarettes and breathing smoke like we're seeing in Chiang Mai?

Obviously cigarettes have lots of extra fun chemicals in them, but I'd love to have a ballpark figure like:

"Breathing this smoky air at (certain particulate level) for 24 hours = smoking two packs of filtered cigarettes in 24 hours"

[worgeordie]

I have just driven back from Chiang Rai and seen many fires

both sides of the road ,the wife says people are burning off

the grass ect, so the mushrooms will grow, come the rainy

season,

So a few will benefit while many will suffer ,and I hate bloody

mushrooms.

regards Worgeordie

[cmsally]

Basically the whole mindset has to be changed. I've tried talking on this subject without making my feelings known (believe me that's difficult) to a variety of people. Local people are not allowed to burn in most places at the moment and I have heard a number saying they have to burn at night so they don't get caught. Talked to some local politicians about going to election with a clean air anti burning mandate; but they said it would be electoral suicide as local people wanted to burn.

Sometimes I have to wonder if whether the burning affects brain performance which probably encourages burning and then its a race to the bottom!

There has to be some sort of direct advantage to not burning to make it work; I don't think the penalty system would work.

[mcgriffith]

I think its disgusting how this can happen every single year and the problem is just getting worst as the population increases and more areas are burnt.

People just don't care about it. Its a lazy persons way out. This practice is not in fact hundreds of years old. The burning of rice fields is quite a new idea. Years ago they used to use buffalo to plough the stubble back into the ground. The forest fires used to be on much a smaller scale as the population of Thailand was much smaller before the population boom up till the 1970s.

They need to change attitudes to the environment and improve education in this area - starting at schools. Educate people to see what a bad effect its having on the environment and heath. The authorities could impose strict fines on people starting fires also designate smokeless zones in urban areas. Its not difficult. But I know Thailand will not do a thing about it as usual.

This country is beautiful, but in a few more decades much of it will be spoiled with uncontrolled development, urban sprawl and the destruction of the remaining wild areas and its wildlife. Sadly this seems to be the story world over.

In my village everyone in burning anything and everything from rice fields, to roadside verges, bonfires and rubbish. Also rice fields and orchards are being cut, burn down and filled in for more and more shop-houses and housing estates.

I can imagine a future here in Chiang Mai when the pollution gets much worse and the effect of public health will be very serious, but still nothing will get done. Money and profit seem more important that human life.

It seems it is not just the Apologists vs. the Whingers.

It is the Denialists, with all their dodgy charts (lies, damned lies and statistics....etc.) vs. the Philosophers (see above) and the Realists.

I used to be an Apologist. The smoke never really bothered me, because I was so enraptured living here in this wonderful place Chiang Mai, that I tended to ...ahem, explain away this travesty by saying it didn't bother me. I don't have a family here (thank god) nor a business.

Now I've become a Realist. An Apologist who has converted to Realism, without becoming a Whinger.

I can share various anecdotal evidence (not charts- real people talking about their real discomfort here).

A friend at my gym, ectomorph, perfect physical condition, never bothered by smoke in 20 years....says his eyes are burning, can't stand being poolside (after workout) more that 1 hr.

Another 20 yr in CM friend flew to Sumatra, yes Sumatra, to get away from this pestilence.

I moved to the 11the floor of an apt bldg where I previously lived on the 5th floor about 3 years ago.

Folks who live in low rise bldgs or houses have little to no perspective about visibility and smoke and fires all around us, which seem to be happening more, not less. See the latest satellite map image- pretty much all of No.Thailand is ablaze right now. We are Realists.

Now as for the Denialists, they think that if they can see across the street, and look directly up and see blue sky, and the Official Thai Government Air Quality Charts says all is well....well then All Is Well, full stop.

I don't buy this line of reasoning, and I have zero zippo donut hole faith in charts, spreadsheets and multi-colored crap created by bureaucrats to cover their ass to make it look like they are doing their job in controlling pollution and enforcing laws on the books that are being broken with impunity daily. And I'm not blaming the itinerant farmer or the poor people for all of this; a previous post of mine stated:

"I understand the limitations of budget, etc. in addressing this problem in Thailand. I also understand that this is not something strictly due to indigenous people who are burning. I've read myriad articles on this topic, including an excellent series in Citylife by a Brit author who investigated the burning practices of rural folk around CM.

Yes, the various ethnic minorities do burn forest undergrowth, often to clear the forest floor to make it easier to hunt, collect mushrooms, etc. But largly they are (and have always been) good stewards of the forest resources.

In addition, there are many large (absentee) "land owners" who are illegally appropriating land, often in protected areas, and burning them off for commercial purposes. Anyone who reads the Thai press knows all about the "influential persons" who have through corruption grabbed national park land and built resorts, planted para rubber plantations, etc. Because often times these people are politicians, or wear a uniform of one kind or another, or come from a local politically powerful clan in a certain area....they have impunity to do these things. The penalties are laughable, but never mind that.....these people will never be charged or see the inside of a courtroom, ever. It's sort of like the US West in the 1850's, when the only law enforced was by the gun on your hip, and how many hired guns you had to back you up. My point here is that it's not just the hilltribe folks doing this burning, it is also powerful vested interests clearing land for illegal purposes." (edited for brevity)

More anecdotal evidence- many dozens of articles in all the major newspapers in Thailand, both English language and Thai, detailing an increase in sick patients with respiratory conditions, airports being closed due to haze, etc. this year.

Logically, as stated in jak2002003's post above- there is organic growth in the burning.

In other words, more people equals more burning, and more pollution.

But I guess the chart trendline is going down.

Nothing to see here people, carry on, please keep moving, please go home and drive safely.......

[cheeryble]

If you think about how long it's taken to get the current low percentage of motorcycle riders to wear crash helmets, that action invloved passing legislation plus active involvement from the police across the country, all fining helmetless riders on a regular basis - that started some seven years ago and look how far it's got today, does anyone really think that an effective programme aimed at reducing pollution can be enacted in shorter timescales, I seriously doubt it!

I really do hate repeating myself, but the average pollution level in Chiang Mai has been, trend-wise, decreasing by more than a third over the last 7½ years:

/ Priceless

Unlike Chiang Mai I consider your chart.....presuming it comes from a reliable source......shows a very significant decrease when you consider this is historical habits we're dealing with. If we got another one third (off the original figure) it would be half of what it is now.

Still in favour of pressure in the form of a march, and I'm not talking about farang only. Last time there was some action at Taipei Gate some years ago the lady I mentioned brought a considerable Thai presence.

The publicity then may even have contributed significantly to the reduction your chart shows.

Cheeryble

Edited March 4, 2012 by cheeryble

[Mapguy]

No one should be surprised that the last two days' satellite reports on fires in Doi Suthep - Pui have enumerated more than twenty each day along definite north-south axes straddling Samoeng for the most part.

Remember that the satellites, for a variety of reasons, do not sense all fires. Twenty does not seem like a lot except, roughly, that we are talking up to 5 - 10x a routine reports I have grown accustomed to seeing during the season.

[mcgriffith]

Photos taken tonight March 3 Saturday of a big fire on the mountain. From a distance of ~ 10 km, I can see huge spikes of flame as trees are engulfed.

Air quality will be worse tomorrow, I guarantee.

And yet, it ISN'T. (!)

We've been on a decreasing line since Thursday.

Not sure how much more proof people need that local factors have a very limited influence on the city-wide (valley-wide) situation: Insane forest fire on the mountain right next to town, and the air is better than yesterday.

Ah, Winnie, dude....

I posted originally around 9 PM March 3 Saturday. Reading was about 90 at that time

Look at the spikes the next day Sunday on the hourly AQM chart.

Won't disagree with the downward trend- but a max reading PM10 of 300.52?

Just wondering if you're in Cha-Am, sipping a Mai Tai.....

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Photos taken tonight March 3 Saturday of a big fire on the mountain. From a distance of ~ 10 km, I can see huge spikes of flame as trees are engulfed.

Air quality will be worse tomorrow, I guarantee.

And yet, it ISN'T. (!)

We've been on a decreasing line since Thursday.

Not sure how much more proof people need that local factors have a very limited influence on the city-wide (valley-wide) situation: Insane forest fire on the mountain right next to town, and the air is better than yesterday.

Ah, Winnie, dude....

I posted originally around 9 PM March 3 Saturday. Reading was about 90 at that time

Look at the spikes the next day Sunday on the hourly AQM chart.

Won't disagree with the downward trend- but a max reading PM10 of 300.52?

Just wondering if you're in Cha-Am, sipping a Mai Tai.....

Sorry but now we're down to 'how to read charts'. You see the ups and downs through every day, but you can also see that both the high points AND the low points are both going down over the last 3-4 days. It's right there in front of you, but by all means take the daily average, or take the daily highs, OR take the daily lows in table form if that's easier. Or look out your window; you could see the mountain today and not just an outline but even the temple on top; you could not see that 4 days ago.

[ogb]

Basically the whole mindset has to be changed. I've tried talking on this subject without making my feelings known (believe me that's difficult) to a variety of people. Local people are not allowed to burn in most places at the moment and I have heard a number saying they have to burn at night so they don't get caught. Talked to some local politicians about going to election with a clean air anti burning mandate; but they said it would be electoral suicide as local people wanted to burn.

Sometimes I have to wonder if whether the burning affects brain performance which probably encourages burning and then its a race to the bottom!

There has to be some sort of direct advantage to not burning to make it work; I don't think the penalty system would work.

There are plenty of Thai who dont like the burning - I'm surprised you didn't come across them.

[chiang mai]

If you think about how long it's taken to get the current low percentage of motorcycle riders to wear crash helmets, that action invloved passing legislation plus active involvement from the police across the country, all fining helmetless riders on a regular basis - that started some seven years ago and look how far it's got today, does anyone really think that an effective programme aimed at reducing pollution can be enacted in shorter timescales, I seriously doubt it!

I really do hate repeating myself, but the average pollution level in Chiang Mai has been, trend-wise, decreasing by more than a third over the last 7½ years:

/ Priceless

Unlike Chiang Mai I consider your chart.....presuming it comes from a reliable source......shows a very significant decrease when you consider this is historical habits we're dealing with. If we got another one third (off the original figure) it would be half of what it is now.

Still in favour of pressure in the form of a march, and I'm not talking about farang only. Last time there was some action at Taipei Gate some years ago the lady I mentioned brought a considerable Thai presence.

The publicity then may even have contributed significantly to the reduction your chart shows.

Cheeryble

I did not suggest the chart does not show a significant decrease, it does. What I do suggest is that a) the data in the chart is suspect (as already has been pointed out by others and by me since 2007), we seem not to fully understand why the rate of decrease is as it is, why and how has this been achieved, and, c) reducing pollution to an acceptable level will take much time, the time and effort involved should not be underestimated. Again, we're talking about historical data and the mindset is not about the way forward but about what's happened in the past.

Edited March 4, 2012 by chiang mai

[Lizard2010]

Basically the whole mindset has to be changed. I've tried talking on this subject without making my feelings known (believe me that's difficult) to a variety of people. Local people are not allowed to burn in most places at the moment and I have heard a number saying they have to burn at night so they don't get caught. Talked to some local politicians about going to election with a clean air anti burning mandate; but they said it would be electoral suicide as local people wanted to burn.

Sometimes I have to wonder if whether the burning affects brain performance which probably encourages burning and then its a race to the bottom!

There has to be some sort of direct advantage to not burning to make it work; I don't think the penalty system would work.

So what has happened to the Government Mulching machines, for some of the farmers to mulch instead of burning.

Probaly sitting in sheds somehwere gathering dust.

[chiang mai]

Basically the whole mindset has to be changed. I've tried talking on this subject without making my feelings known (believe me that's difficult) to a variety of people. Local people are not allowed to burn in most places at the moment and I have heard a number saying they have to burn at night so they don't get caught. Talked to some local politicians about going to election with a clean air anti burning mandate; but they said it would be electoral suicide as local people wanted to burn.

Sometimes I have to wonder if whether the burning affects brain performance which probably encourages burning and then its a race to the bottom!

There has to be some sort of direct advantage to not burning to make it work; I don't think the penalty system would work.

So what has happened to the Government Mulching machines, for some of the farmers to mulch instead of burning.

Probaly sitting in sheds somehwere gathering dust.

Mulching machines require effort, someone must gather the waste, feed the machine and then dispose of the mulch, all of that requires time and effort, quite a bit of effort. Buring requires someone to slop some petrol around and light a match!

[cmsally]

Basically the whole mindset has to be changed. I've tried talking on this subject without making my feelings known (believe me that's difficult) to a variety of people. Local people are not allowed to burn in most places at the moment and I have heard a number saying they have to burn at night so they don't get caught. Talked to some local politicians about going to election with a clean air anti burning mandate; but they said it would be electoral suicide as local people wanted to burn.

Sometimes I have to wonder if whether the burning affects brain performance which probably encourages burning and then its a race to the bottom!

There has to be some sort of direct advantage to not burning to make it work; I don't think the penalty system would work.

There are plenty of Thai who dont like the burning - I'm surprised you didn't come across them.

I've come across plenty. Where I live in town no one burns and they complain about the air constantly. However you go out of town and its often a different story. A lot of them seem to have armour plated lungs and don't seem to notice. Also I've noticed a lot of people calling it fog and seriously believing its fog. Well no its not its smoke.

[Mapguy]

Gentlemen, gentlemen (and occasional ladies)!!!

This year's discussion of the seasonal air pollution problem has been generally different in tone and, IMHO, more constructive than previous discussions since 2007. I hope, in our collective frustration, the conversation doesn't disintegrate into a battle of egos and focus lost in a blizzard of numbers, some meaningful and some not.

There has been some useful statistical information (sometimes not fully understood and sometimes ill-presented), some general background information about pollution and health and sources noted to find out more, useful historical and cultural background, and anecdotal reports of interest. Cutting through the understandable frustration that there are no ready easy solutions have been a few preliminary suggestions for effecting change.

In the meantime, personally trying hard not to be obsessed with the hourly PCD reports that we can now access from pollution measuring stations, I am close to revealing why there was equipment failure for four days at the end of February. I'll share it with you but don't tell anyone else just yet! You'll recall that the failure occurred roughly when the rainmakers took to the air, their initial target being the governmental center where one of the two Chiang Mai Province pollution stations is located. I have heard from the usual reliable source that there was a great WHUMP followed by noise of splintered wood being thrown over the adjacent area. I suspect the station was struck by a huge bag of silver iodide crystals and dry ice, the evidence for which quickly evaporated when watered down by governmental gardeners hiding in the nearly bushes. There was obviously a very clever high-level conspiracy to destroy data and the statistical evidence of pollution in Chiang Mai thus solving the problem!!

[Sparkles]

The farmers quite rightly are contributing to the bad situation but returning ,by road , from Bangkok last week there was clear evidence of km's of near roadside burning south of Lampang which obviously was not done by farmers but some Government agency. Like so many problems in Thailand its about education and obviously the message is not getting through.

[chiang mai]

The farmers quite rightly are contributing to the bad situation but returning ,by road , from Bangkok last week there was clear evidence of km's of near roadside burning south of Lampang which obviously was not done by farmers but some Government agency. Like so many problems in Thailand its about education and obviously the message is not getting through.

The only official messages it seems that get through to people in Thailand are the ones that people want to hear, messages about all manner of things are formulated and delivered yet for the majority of people the message either falls short or is ignored. Earlier I cited the example of motor cycle helmets and the need of government to lower the death toll caused by not wearing a helmet, that program after nine years or so has been how effective, 40%(ish)!

I agree with Sally when she says that the "stick" doesn't work but I'm at a loss to understand how the "carrot" might be useful applied in this situation, how can you incentivise a largely poorely educated population into not setting fires, pay a bonus to each village.moo bahn that doesn't start a fire, I'm at a loss to begin with that one.

[Tywais]

HM the King concerned about haze in North

CHIANG MAI, March 4— His Majesty King Bhumibol was worried about haze which continued to blanket the northern provinces with dust particle levels exceeding safety standards, said Song Klinprathum, chief of the Northern Royal Rainmaking Centre, on Sunday.

Mr Song said the King was concerned about the ongoing haze pollution problem in the North of Thailand, adding that Distorn Vajarodaya, chairman of Rajaprajanugroh Foundation, will visit the region to observe and advise on artificial rain-making operation and related techniques.

The operation to tackle and reduce the haze, which has affected the health of local residents, began on Feb 27 by inducing moisture in the atmosphere to fall as precipitation, clearing the skies.

Three aircraft started the artificial rain-making operation on Feb 27 over Chiang Mai’s provincial seat, the first targeted location to alleviate haze and particulate dust particles that are higher that safety standard.

Although the air quality in the northern region gradually improved on Sunday after the rain-making operation, dust particles remain higher than the safe limits.

The situation in Chiang Rai’s Mae Sai district remains critical as dust particles in the district on Sunday registered at the highest levels in the region, at over 300 microgrammes per cubic metre.

Meanwhile, dust particles in the neighbouring province of Chiang Mai reduced to 89 microgrammes per cubic metre, below the safe standard of 120 microgrammes per cubic metre.

In Tak, haze and smog continued to envelop the province, particularly at the Thai-Myanmar border area. (MCOT online news)

-- TNA 4 March 2012

[Mapguy]

Also, check these fellows out: http://www.martinmars.com/

[jonwilly]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Smog-in-North-to-get-worse-30177343.html

From Tuesdays Nation, looks like a trip to the seaside is ON.

Came back from Issan at weekend, a little burning on route and CM reasonable.

john

[chiang mai]

http://www.nationmul...e-30177343.html

From Tuesdays Nation, looks like a trip to the seaside is ON.

Came back from Issan at weekend, a little burning on route and CM reasonable.

john

Interesting, that article suggests that the burning is twice as bad this year because there was so little burning last year, looks like a case of pay now or pay later!

[chiang mai]

Also, check these fellows out: http://www.martinmars.com/

Reminicent of the Sunderland flying boat mark III, lovely planes.

[CMX]

Can somebody remind me what the benefit is of this thread, I've been involved with this subject on almost an anual basis since 2007 and there seems to be very little difference between threads when the various years are compared - people complain, some say they are going to move, stats are produced, stats are challenged, people fall out and burning season ends! Thinking about it I doubt that we know much more today about the characteristics of the pollution than we did say five/six years ago, although I suppose it can be argued that threads such as this have made people more aware. But nobody has managed to come up with anything that is predictive to forewarn how bad the pollution might be or when it might occur, everyone seems to be fixated looking at historical data which is rolled out again and again adnauseum, seems like the collective brains of TV should have been able to accomplish more somehow!

-- italics mine, cmx

I believe that the purpose of this thread is to develop facts. We find here more specifics about how reliable are the data, what is happening this year, and (I particularly conclude) what long term results appear to be (excluding bumps this way and that such as last year and 2007).

Certainly I can do little about the situation except develop solutions for myself and stay alert for any realistic, practical, solution to which I might contribute - if even in only a small way. But without facts, all of us are shouting into the (polluted) wind. Facts help me in determining what to personally do - getting away for a while, for example. Sorting and refining them, 'tis true, is somewhat tiresome.

As for the carrot (which I favor as a better tactic when attempting to change culturaly values held for centuries), it would cost, and those costs vie for national priorities and resources. Here again, only facts will eventually convince the populace and elected leaders of the degree of danger in these practices.

[chiang mai]

Can somebody remind me what the benefit is of this thread, I've been involved with this subject on almost an anual basis since 2007 and there seems to be very little difference between threads when the various years are compared - people complain, some say they are going to move, stats are produced, stats are challenged, people fall out and burning season ends! Thinking about it I doubt that we know much more today about the characteristics of the pollution than we did say five/six years ago, although I suppose it can be argued that threads such as this have made people more aware. But nobody has managed to come up with anything that is predictive to forewarn how bad the pollution might be or when it might occur, everyone seems to be fixated looking at historical data which is rolled out again and again adnauseum, seems like the collective brains of TV should have been able to accomplish more somehow!

-- italics mine, cmx

I believe that the purpose of this thread is to develop facts. We find here more specifics about how reliable are the data, what is happening this year, and (I particularly conclude) what long term results appear to be (excluding bumps this way and that such as last year and 2007).

Certainly I can do little about the situation except develop solutions for myself and stay alert for any realistic, practical, solution to which I might contribute - if even in only a small way. But without facts, all of us are shouting into the (polluted) wind. Facts help me in determining what to personally do - getting away for a while, for example. Sorting and refining them, 'tis true, is somewhat tiresome.

As for the carrot (which I favor as a better tactic when attempting to change culturaly values held for centuries), it would cost, and those costs vie for national priorities and resources. Here again, only facts will eventually convince the populace and elected leaders of the degree of danger in these practices.

For years we have been pursuaded to ignore our senses and that the (only) facts comprise a series of data tables and graphs showing that pollution in location A is worse than in location B and that pollution is measurably improving year on year. The validity of that data and those charts is seriously in doubt and post 422 confirms such, questionable messages that perhaps things are not getting better but in fact are getting worse, if nothing else that there's been no positive progress for quite some time and everything else is self serving propoganda - does anyone out there actually believe that things have gotten so much better over the past seven years, I do not.

Facts, the facts are what you see out of your window each day, the facts are how you feel through out the day when your throat is sore, your eyes burn and you begin courses of anti-biotics for respiratory disease, Facts, the facts are in the dirt on the end of your finger as you run it along the just cleaned living room furniture. So yes this thread should be about facts but sadly it's much to do with fiction!

Edited March 6, 2012 by chiang mai

[shroomer]

Picture of smog over Chiangmai taken from near Nimmanheimen intersection

Edited March 6, 2012 by shroomer