New Visa Rules For Fathers Of Thai Children

[softgeorge]

been to the Thai Embassy today in K.L to apply for the visa. The story is correct they will stop issuing the visa's to farangs based solely on being a parent. A birth certificate alone is not acceptable. I was asked if I was married to the mother and I said no. I was also asked about my relationship with my son. It appears that you will not have any problems if you can prove your relationship with the mother of the child, I presented a letter form my partner stating that we had been living as husband and wife (defacto) for 7 years and we both provide equal support to the child. I also prented a copy of her I.D card and house book along with the document stating that I have been legally recognised as the father. You would be in a even better position if you took the wife and child along with you but this is not always possible.

To cut the story short if you applying for the visa and present just a birth certificate you will not get it, the girl at the counter stated that this will be enforced from May.

They told me that they will issue me the visa based on all the combined evidence that I provided. So unless they changed thier minds in the next 24 hours I will collect it tomorrow afternoon.

Good one.. Congrats. I hope you feel a bit more relieved now.

A great relief I think the best thing people can do is get legally recognised as the father and show proof of a relationship with the mother and then people should not have problems.

My lawyer cost me 13,000 baht and did a good job. A couple of kickbacks the total was 15,000 well worth getting legally recognised.

[Jayman]

been to the Thai Embassy today in K.L to apply for the visa. The story is correct they will stop issuing the visa's to farangs based solely on being a parent. A birth certificate alone is not acceptable. I was asked if I was married to the mother and I said no. I was also asked about my relationship with my son. It appears that you will not have any problems if you can prove your relationship with the mother of the child, I presented a letter form my partner stating that we had been living as husband and wife (defacto) for 7 years and we both provide equal support to the child. I also prented a copy of her I.D card and house book along with the document stating that I have been legally recognised as the father. You would be in a even better position if you took the wife and child along with you but this is not always possible.

To cut the story short if you applying for the visa and present just a birth certificate you will not get it, the girl at the counter stated that this will be enforced from May.

They told me that they will issue me the visa based on all the combined evidence that I provided. So unless they changed thier minds in the next 24 hours I will collect it tomorrow afternoon.

Good one.. Congrats. I hope you feel a bit more relieved now.

A great relief I think the best thing people can do is get legally recognised as the father and show proof of a relationship with the mother and then people should not have problems.

My lawyer cost me 13,000 baht and did a good job. A couple of kickbacks the total was 15,000 well worth getting legally recognised.

You did what was needed to protect your sons future and that is commendable. I hope more will follow your advice.

It does seem like they are just trying to close the door to fake fathers getting visas rather than stopping legit fathers from getting them. Just means that a little more work will be required by true fathers. Unfortunately this is what happens when many abuse the system. It makes it harder on all the honest folks.

[softgeorge]

been to the Thai Embassy today in K.L to apply for the visa. The story is correct they will stop issuing the visa's to farangs based solely on being a parent. A birth certificate alone is not acceptable. I was asked if I was married to the mother and I said no. I was also asked about my relationship with my son. It appears that you will not have any problems if you can prove your relationship with the mother of the child, I presented a letter form my partner stating that we had been living as husband and wife (defacto) for 7 years and we both provide equal support to the child. I also prented a copy of her I.D card and house book along with the document stating that I have been legally recognised as the father. You would be in a even better position if you took the wife and child along with you but this is not always possible.

To cut the story short if you applying for the visa and present just a birth certificate you will not get it, the girl at the counter stated that this will be enforced from May.

They told me that they will issue me the visa based on all the combined evidence that I provided. So unless they changed thier minds in the next 24 hours I will collect it tomorrow afternoon.

Thanks for your quick report. So does that mean that after May, they will still issue a non-o based on being the father of a child 'as long as you have the legal docmentation'?

From what I was told by the staff YES, but not if you just attach a single birth certificate to the application. Get legally recognised as the father via the courts. Also from what I was told you do NOT have to be legally married to the mother and can be in a defacto relationship and the partner must confirm this as mine did. A combination of the two carries more wieght.

Edited February 23, 2012 by softgeorge

[Frankdog]

Unmarried fathers of Thai children can get a one-year non-imm visa, but a birth certificate alone is not enough. The one-off process begins with bona-fide fathers applying to the children's court in the district of their habitation to be approved as a father of a Thai child, and then there is some. Once you have been through the process, the status of being an unmarried father of a Thai child is valid for a non-immigrant visa application until the child is either 18 or 20 years old—I cannot remember which. Bona-fide fathers who have completed the process should have no problems providing they can meet the financial requirements of a marriage visa annually.

[lopburi3]

You seem to be talking about one year extensions of stay from Immigration and there has not been any change in these and is available up to age 20. The financial requirement is not exactly the same as marriage as there is no requirement for money to be in account two months. Section 2.18 of police order 777/2551 provides the details.

This thread is about multi entry non immigrant O visa issue - and the change is that documentation of being father under Thai law will be required rather than the previous acceptance of name on birth cirtificate alone.

[Martinpeter]

Hi there all/.

I have been watching this post with interest last few days

Glad to hear softgeorge, got his visa accepted ok.

I have been in this situation for a year and half. I applied to courts for legalization of me being father last year, then transfered from tourist visa to Non in 'O' then applied for a 1 year extension last year.(without leaving the country). you must have 21 days left minimum to transfer though across.

(see my previous posts) process through courts, was painless, but took about 6 months to completely finish at amphurs office. (i paid about 10k total) I used G.A.M to help me.

It looks like i can carry on with my yearly extensions still (thank God). at immigration.

I know and understand what relief this latest news is to many fathers.

cheers all (best of luck)

Edited February 23, 2012 by Martinpeter

[samran]

The silence on this thread from the usual panic merchants and defamers is deafening.

[samsiam]

Until they change the laws again as they did/attempted to do a about 4 years ago....they tried to change to no support of thai child visa's unless over 50yo....it took me 7 months of repeated visits to the imm office each month to finally get it again and the final visit was for more than 7 hours....but i got it.

It is always possible they will try to screw it up and bring in something new....very possible.

Edited February 23, 2012 by samsiam

[lopburi3]

Flame removed.

[MaiChai]

But I thought the Hull statement said legal custody? Thats not the same as being legally the father? Legal custody means the courts have awarded you legal custody of the child. Normally the mother would have legal custody of a child, but if the mother is not fit or for some other reason the father can have custody. So by implication, just being the father does not mean you have the right to a non-immigrant O visa. Chances are if you do have custody and you are not married to the mother then you may be using this as a way to stay in Thailand and NOT living with your child full time when in country. In theory if you are living with your Thai partner and have children with her, then you should be married, but I know at least one foreigner who has a wife back at home but also has a Thai partner he stays with in Thailand who he has had a child with; he can't marry her as that would be bigamy.

Edited February 23, 2012 by MaiChai

[softgeorge]

But I thought the Hull statement said legal custody? Thats not the same as being legally the father? Legal custody means the courts have awarded you legal custody of the child. Normally the mother would have legal custody of a child, but if the mother is not fit or for some other reason the father can have custody. So by implication, just being the father does not mean you have the right to a non-immigrant O visa. Chances are if you do have custody and you are not married to the mother then you may be using this as a way to stay in Thailand and NOT living with your child full time when in country. In theory if you are living with your Thai partner and have children with her, then you should be married, but I know at least one foreigner who has a wife back at home but also has a Thai partner he stays with in Thailand who he has had a child with; he can't marry her as that would be bigamy.

Read my post #326 that is what I got from the horses mouth.

[Mario2008]

But I thought the Hull statement said legal custody? Thats not the same as being legally the father? Legal custody means the courts have awarded you legal custody of the child. Normally the mother would have legal custody of a child, but if the mother is not fit or for some other reason the father can have custody. So by implication, just being the father does not mean you have the right to a non-immigrant O visa. Chances are if you do have custody and you are not married to the mother then you may be using this as a way to stay in Thailand and NOT living with your child full time when in country. In theory if you are living with your Thai partner and have children with her, then you should be married, but I know at least one foreigner who has a wife back at home but also has a Thai partner he stays with in Thailand who he has had a child with; he can't marry her as that would be bigamy.

Custody means that someone is in your care. It is indeed not the same as having parental rights. However, in practise both terms are used losely and often people mean that they have parental rights when they use the word custody.

It is a bit like people talking about a visa when they mean an extension of stay.

[StateSix]

The silence on this thread from the usual panic merchants and defamers is deafening.

Funny that. Typical Chicken Little posters claiming 'racist' Thai authorities are conspiring to kick all foreigners outs, without knowing all the facts.

Why should someone get a 1 year visa if they cannot show that they are looking after their child? Get yourself legally recognised as the father and show that you are active in raising and supporting them and from softgeorges post it would appear that there will be no problem.

BTW congrats to softgeorge.

[StateSix]

I'm sorry but I would take very little from this at all.

There is no mention of the code for the Non immigrant visa though we assume it's a Non-0 visa.

This is hardly a new rule anyway, if you arn't married to the mother of the child what right should you have to get the visa anyway.

Seems like the only reason why you got the email in the first place was because some guy knocked up a girl in Pattaya and thought it would be a good way to get a visa.

Oh and to those who think it's racist go back and ask your own consulate if this would fly in your country, it wouldn't. have a kid in america to an unwed mother good luck if you think you'll get a green card.

I think this issue is deeper than what you're thinking. I've been here for 16 years and married for a little more than 12 years and have two children, both over 7. What would happen if my wife were to pass away? I wouldn't be married - does that then mean I would need to go out of the country to renew my visa on a regular basis or would I still be allowed to have a one year Non-Imm O?

What about people who choose not to marry?

What about Farang women married to Thai men? Will this rule apply to women too?

Does an unmarried father not have the same rights as a married one? Like it or not, if an unmarried person is supporting his child, they ought to have the same rights as a married father.

If you are on 1 year extension of stays then I seriously doubt that they would be denied in the event of your wife passing.

Are you working or over 55? If so then you could get a visa based on that.

If the alternative is that you would have to leave the country and not be able to see your children, why would you not get married?

I don't know whether it applies to females also.

If you are not married to the mother and have not legitimised the birth then unfortunately no, you do not have the same rights as a married father.

He said he's been married for over 12 years.

He asked what would happen if she died. My first reply was answering that. If he is on 1 year extenisons of stay based on marriage for 12 years, then I could not see them refusing to continue extending if his wife died. If they did then he may qualify for a visa based on working or being over 55.

[StateSix]

Re your friend, what difference does going signing a piece of paper at the local Amphur really make if it enables him to stay with his family? Is signing that paper really going to make a difference as to whether he and his wife stay together?

If they do split up it does not mean that the child will never get to see one of his parents. Also, lots of children are raised by single parents and it needn't be disastrous. I am sure workarounds can be found.

For the record, I don't have an issue with the visas not being given if the father is only named on the birth certificate. However, I do believe that they should be given if you are proven to be the legally registered father, regardless of your marriage status.

Perhaps you've had little or no experience with family, but a parent who 'visits' is incapable of providing the stability and consistency of a parent who actually resides with his child(ren). Therefore the child(ren) suffer.

My best mate was raised by his mother only with limited input from his father who lived overseas. He does not appear to have suffered, nor has his sister. I accept that a stable, loving 2 parent family is generally better, but to say that children being raised by one parent will suffer is doing a disservice to many single parent families.

I suggest you ask your best mate rather than merely relying upon what you have observed. Knowing that one has a parent out there that would potentially be a positive influence but is not present or available day in and day out is less than ideal. I did not mean 'suffering' as living one's life in agony, but, I did mean that, for the child, having one parent not living in the same country as the child translates into, at best, an unfortunate situation.

We have talked about it in the past. While he would obviously preferred to have had his dad around, he confirmed he wasn't overly bothered about it. They do have a decent relationship now and he fully understands why his dad wasn't around.

He has a decent job, is happily married and has lots of friends etc so it doesn't appear to have affected him too much.

[lopburi3]

He asked what would happen if she died. My first reply was answering that. If he is on 1 year extenisons of stay based on marriage for 12 years, then I could not see them refusing to continue extending if his wife died. If they did then he may qualify for a visa based on working or being over 55.

An extension of stay ends when the reason for it ends. And this is being made known with requirment to sign an acknowledgement of this with extension of stay paperwork. If on a Thai wife extension of stay and that ends for any reason he will have to find another method. For retirement the minimum age is 50; not 55.

[StateSix]

An example that will not apply to the majority, but a valid one nonetheless. If the mother has died then he could apply to the courts for custody as the father. It would then be possible for him to take the child to his home country.

If the couple have split up then it is trickier. If he legitimises himself as the father then he has shown a committment to the child and the rules should allow him to obtain a visa to visit. Hopefully the rules are relaxed to allow this.

Bt 400k in the bank is the requirement to get a 1 year extension of stay, not the actual visa itself. 90 day border runs would be required if he has the visa, but doesn't meet the requirements for a 1 year extension of stay.

Certain branches do allow people on a tourist visa to set up an account I believe. However, I agree a lot don't.

You ramble on a lot about how trivial this change of visa is - rather rude in my opinion. And then you accept that things are not easy and that parents with infants need to do border runs and may not get a bank account and how the things may just not be that straightforward or even possible.

You act like an expert but shoot yourself in the foot every time you post - in this case "Bt 400k in the bank is the requirement to get a 1 year extension of stay, not the actual visa itself." In case you have not read the OP - visas will not be issued!

You have proven in previous posts that you have no sympathy for parents in this situation and I really do believe you are here as a troll.

Hello again Angry. I actually find the way that you have taken the initial Hull CG letter and turned it into a racist anti-farang Thai consiracy to be rather rude. What is your opinion on it all now, following softgeorges experience?

You presented a hypothetical situation and I tried to provide solutions to those who may be affected, so I have hardly been unsympathetic. I have also acknowledged that some people could have been affected. You on the other had appear to be using the original news as an excuse to go on an anti Thai rant.

You need to learn what a troll is, because I am certainly not acting like one.

[mussen]

We have talked about it in the past. While he would obviously preferred to have had his dad around, he confirmed he wasn't overly bothered about it. They do have a decent relationship now and he fully understands why his dad wasn't around.

He has a decent job, is happily married and has lots of friends etc so it doesn't appear to have affected him too much.

StateSix, you are a genius, you've just solved the whole single parent problem. So we can now announce to the world that growing up without a Father doesn't affect people 'much'? Is that correct?

[StateSix]

He asked what would happen if she died. My first reply was answering that. If he is on 1 year extenisons of stay based on marriage for 12 years, then I could not see them refusing to continue extending if his wife died. If they did then he may qualify for a visa based on working or being over 55.

An extension of stay ends when the reason for it ends. And this is being made known with requirment to sign an acknowledgement of this with extension of stay paperwork. If on a Thai wife extension of stay and that ends for any reason he will have to find another method. For retirement the minimum age is 50; not 55.

In the event of the wifes death, would immigration consider the marriage as over? Obviously in the event of divorce they would. Just seems harsh to do so after 12 years if the wife died.

Anyway, it is an irrelevance now as in that event he could get the visa based on children as he is the legal parent.

[StateSix]

We have talked about it in the past. While he would obviously preferred to have had his dad around, he confirmed he wasn't overly bothered about it. They do have a decent relationship now and he fully understands why his dad wasn't around.

He has a decent job, is happily married and has lots of friends etc so it doesn't appear to have affected him too much.

StateSix, you are a genius, you've just solved the whole single parent problem. So we can now announce to the world that growing up without a Father doesn't affect people 'much'? Is that correct?

In my friends experience, yes. He grew up without his father for a large period of his life. He is a happy, well adjusted individual, as is his sister.

I also know people who were raised by both parents who are complete and utter messes.

The important factor is how you are raised. Being raised by one loving, supportive parent beats being raised by both if they are disinterested and unloving.

To clarify for you mussen, I believe the blanket statement that being raised without your father around automatically damages the child in some way is wrong. However, being raised by both parents is the ideal, as long as it is in a loving, supportive environment.

Do you disagree?

[Ginkas]

In the event of the wifes death, would immigration consider the marriage as over?

Yes, as would everybody else.

(That's why a widower can remarry, even in the Catholic Church.)

Nothing harsh about it, it's a fact of life.

The reason for the extension no longer applies, so another would have to be applied.

No doubt the officers themselves would be sympathic, but an alternative, legal, reason would have to be found for extension of stay.

That's the law - which never is sympathetic.

[Jayman]

In the event of the wifes death, would immigration consider the marriage as over?

Yes, as would everybody else.

(That's why a widower can remarry, even in the Catholic Church.)

Nothing harsh about it, it's a fact of life.

The reason for the extension no longer applies, so another would have to be applied.

No doubt the officers themselves would be sympathic, but an alternative, legal, reason would have to be found for extension of stay.

That's the law - which never is sympathetic.

Are we talking about a visa based on being a parent here? If so then I don't think you would be denied due to death of your spouse if you are the father of a thai child. If we are talking about visa based on thai wife then you're on the wrong thread.

[mussen]

We have talked about it in the past. While he would obviously preferred to have had his dad around, he confirmed he wasn't overly bothered about it. They do have a decent relationship now and he fully understands why his dad wasn't around.

He has a decent job, is happily married and has lots of friends etc so it doesn't appear to have affected him too much.

StateSix, you are a genius, you've just solved the whole single parent problem. So we can now announce to the world that growing up without a Father doesn't affect people 'much'? Is that correct?

In my friends experience, yes. He grew up without his father for a large period of his life. He is a happy, well adjusted individual, as is his sister.

I also know people who were raised by both parents who are complete and utter messes.

The important factor is how you are raised. Being raised by one loving, supportive parent beats being raised by both if they are disinterested and unloving.

To clarify for you mussen, I believe the blanket statement that being raised without your father around automatically damages the child in some way is wrong. However, being raised by both parents is the ideal, as long as it is in a loving, supportive environment.

Do you disagree?

Yes I agree. But that doesn't allow us to de-sensitise the issue of a Father not being able to live with his child, just because there are 'plenty of children who have grown up in a succesfull single parent situation'.

[lopburi3]

Are we talking about a visa based on being a parent here? If so then I don't think you would be denied due to death of your spouse if you are the father of a thai child. If we are talking about visa based on thai wife then you're on the wrong thread.

But the poster made a statement based on marriage (which is being discussed as alternative to child) and we have replied to it. If extension were based on Thai wife extension of stay it would end on her death. If children involved then a new extension for that would be an option.

[Jayman]

Are we talking about a visa based on being a parent here? If so then I don't think you would be denied due to death of your spouse if you are the father of a thai child. If we are talking about visa based on thai wife then you're on the wrong thread.

But the poster made a statement based on marriage (which is being discussed as alternative to child) and we have replied to it. If extension were based on Thai wife extension of stay it would end on her death. If children involved then a new extension for that would be an option.

Guess I just don't understand that if you have a child and your wife passes then why would you even still file for an extension based on marriage? If that is what is being discussed here.

[chris1970]

are you sure legal custody is the same as legal father ?

i originally had an e-mail from them saying sold custody now they are saying legal custody now on thai visa people are saying legal father ?

i've sent them another e-mail to double check what they require.

[softgeorge]

@ Chris1970 - It is legal father and proof of same and you will get the visa. A letter from you partner if you are not married stating that you share the parenting and reside together also helps a lot. A birth certificate alone no longer carries any wieght.

[NanLaew]

^ Congrats on getting the visa. It would appear that this post was very timely for you and you gathered just the right amount of additional paperwork to qualify THIS TIME. I reckon you should invest in a lottery ticket!

One important fact the KL staff mentioned to you was the 'global' implementation of this rule sometime in May. I am pretty sure that this thread will be linked to several new threads sent by panic-stricken single dads when more Non-O (single father of Thai child) applications get rejected.

It's about time I got some adverts up on TV!

[BigJohnnyBKK]

You should have stopped after the first sentence. Your second sentence is completely wrong as this situation has been created by Thailand and blame rests 100% on their head. Maybe they should go back and read the UN human rights agreements they signed but fail to follow - in this case rights of the family.

But this is Thailand (TIT) keeps being brainwashed into the foreigners that it seems many accept that it is NORMAL to be abused, and to ACCEPT human rights violations - oh well, they just cancelled another legitimate visa, oh well they just cracked down on housing/company law and many lost their home, oh well you can't stay with your family of many years, oh well... TIT. Complete and utter BS and defence of BS is even worse!

You are confusing ideals with reality. The reality is that Thai bureacrats can determine who's eligible to stay in Thailand and who isn't based on whatever criteria they like. Developed countries in the West force families to separate due to laws like this all the time. UN rules and international treaties carry very little practical weight against local laws no matter what the theories are.

You are absolutely correct that many Thais are racist, that is acceptable attitude, behavior and not illegal here. Same with sexism. Many Thais, especially the ones with wealth and power are very embarrassed by all the fat old bald guys with young Thai partners, and are only willing to tolerate farang staying here if they are putting a lot of money into banking/government coffers - they don't care about your helping poor people to survive, that doesn't count.

Were you taught that reality was fair when you were growing up? That laws are just, the powerful kind, the government is there to help "the people"? Those things aren't even true back home, and much less so here. It is your job to figure out how to keep being able to live here IMO you should just face reality and adapt to it, not try to change it, it's only your head that will get hurt banging against that wall.

[ALFREDO]

That -legal custody- costs 10.000.- Baht + ? Why so expensive?

Is that for sure a normal price? My GF thought that is an Amphoe thing without much problem and small money.

Regarding all that laws and changing laws, I remember very well,

when I was denied a Non Immigrant O based on being father to a Thai child in Singapores Thai Embassy in a rude matter.

Even try to make it a bit difficult there to apply than instead for a Tourist Visa, with the questions and enforcing them.

(Flight out of TH? Money in your pocket? -20.000.- now and here!)

And I am from Austria and not from a 3rd World country!

I would like to be more involved with family ties in Cambodia,

where you never have to leave the country, not even have to go to Immigration yourself,

just pay to an agent about 350.- Dollar for a one year (Business) Visa extension, same for month and 6 month, back to back.

So easy and legal!

Edited February 25, 2012 by ALFREDO