Thailand To Build 11 More Toll-free Motorways

[george]

Transport Ministry plans to build 11 more toll-free motorways

BANGKOK: -- The Transport Ministry is committed to the plans to build 13 motorways parallel to the country's main routes -- with no charges to use the special highways, according to Deputy Transport Minister Chainant Charoensiri.

To date only two of the planned 13 motorways are in use -- Route 7 linking Bangkok and Chonburi and Route 9, the Eastern Ring Road. Toll fees are currently levied but future drivers will use the other new motorways free of charge, said Gen. Chainant.

This means, he adds, that in the future the Highway Department will not transfer management of motorways to the Express and Rapid Transit Authority of Thailand (ETA).

Another key feature of the future motorways will be the entry-exit points to main regional and community centres including universities. Plans to build more access points linking major community locations are also underway for Route 7 and Route 9. As traffic increases along these two routes, the toll tariffs should come down, said the deputy transport minister.

Under a 20-year motorway transport system development plan spanning 1997-2016, the Thai government plans to build 13 motorways totaling 4,150 km. With Routes 7 and 9 now in use, next in the pipeline is the motorway linking Bang Yai and Ban Pong.

--TNA 2005-12-12

[sierra01]

So in 8 years they've built 2 out of 13 motor ways, now they have to build 11 in the next 11 years. Yeah, of course the remaining 11 will get built.

[billd766]

They seem to have started on the Khampaeng Phet to Mae Wong national park motorway.

It is 60 km of road from a provincial capital to a park.

I suppose that no more than 7,500 people live along side the road yet for some reason it is being expanded from a 2 lane highway to a 4 lane highway to no where.

Resurface the road by all means but to double its width?

The only reason I can think of (apart from the usual corruption one) is that more people can visit the national park faster, causing more accidents and deaths, and then destroy the park with so many people.

Ah well, TIT.

This post has been edited for extremely bad spelling.

Edited December 12, 2005 by billd766

[Gumballl]

Ah, just what Thailand needs. More roads leading smack into the middle to town centers. Jeez, when will they realise that more roads does not necessarily mean less congestion on the roadways.

Please Thai civil engineers... learn to build bypasses around major cities... learn to build exit and entrance ramps onto highways... think safety above convenience. Think outside the box.

As an outsider, it makes me wonder what was the state of mind of the engineers that built the road systems in Thailand. Similar curiousities run rampant in my mind concerning who designed the streets in Bangkok.

Does anybody share my views that the flow of traffic on a major highway is "somewhat" interrupted when a 5-tonne vehicle makes a u-turn right onto a lane where cars are travelling 120km per hour. What were the engineers thinking when they built such a catastrophe? (They probably were not thinking, so as not to break Thai custom).

It makes me wonder if on my next holiday, if should I play russian roulette or should I come to Thailand?

[Jai Dee]

TRANSPORT MINISTRY EMPHASIZE THE NEED FOR MOTORWAYS IN ITS FUTURE DEVELOPMENT STRATEGY

The development strategy for the country's highways is calling for completion of 11 inter-city motorways that would not involve any fee collection.

Deputy Transport Minister Chaiyanand Charoensiri (ชัยนันท์ เจริญศิริ) spoke on the strategy of highways development for the future, saying the Transport Ministry would put emphasis on developing the complete set of 13 motorways spanning 4,150 kilometers. Currently 2 of these have already been opened, including the 83-kilometer Bangkok-Chonburi motorway and the 63-kilometer eastern outer ring road. The ministry is currently selecting a contractor to grant concession for a 51-kilometer route from Bangkokyai(บางกอกใหญ่) to Ban Pon (บ้านโป่ง).

However the deputy transport minister viewed that motorway fees should no longer be collected in the future, as the motorways are a transporation system arranged for the public. Thus, the Highways Department would not need to transfer its new motorways to the Expressway and Rapid Transit Authority of Thailand to have the latter act as fee collector. However the transfer of the Bangkok-Chonburi motorway and the eastern outer ring road to the ETA would still commence.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 12 December 2005

[Kido]

The most urgent matters is to have more fly over/ under bypass in the juction of traffic light or install smart traffic lights which can sense which direct longer and release longer on that direction.

What they have now is count down which up to 130 min, that will not help anyway.

Juction ladprao was improved after a small fly over was bulit.

[Maigo6]

It makes me wonder if on my next holiday, if should I play russian roulette or should I come to Thailand?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Go to Spain instead.

[Maigo6]

Thailand just can't win can it?

If the road system is inadequate, a bunch of Farang cry out for more roads, when they propose to build more roads, a bunch of Farang cry out that it's wrong, always stressing how the Thai people are unable to think and act as well as Farangs.

If the Oil Depot that blew up in England over the weekend had been an Oil depot in Thailand, a bunch of Farangs would be saying how this accident could only happen in Thailand.

I think you guys need to take off your blinkers.

We all know how perfect it is in your own countries of birth and how you have no problems at all there, ( why leave ? ) but give Thailand a chance to progress in the way that Thai people see fit.

The state most western countries find themselves in is down to who ?

I bet you would love to blame Thais for the poor state of your own countries too eh, but wait a minute, western countries are run by Farangs, so what went wrong?

Get real.

[sierra01]

Ah, just what Thailand needs. More roads leading smack into the middle to town centers. Jeez, when will they realise that more roads does not necessarily mean less congestion on the roadways.

Please Thai civil engineers... learn to build bypasses around major cities... learn to build exit and entrance ramps onto highways... think safety above convenience. Think outside the box.

As an outsider, it makes me wonder what was the state of mind of the engineers that built the road systems in Thailand. Similar curiousities run rampant in my mind concerning who designed the streets in Bangkok.

Does anybody share my views that the flow of traffic on a major highway is "somewhat" interrupted when a 5-tonne vehicle makes a u-turn right onto a lane where cars are travelling 120km per hour. What were the engineers thinking when they built such a catastrophe? (They probably were not thinking, so as not to break Thai custom).

It makes me wonder if on my next holiday, if should I play russian roulette or should I come to Thailand?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote

Yes I agree with you, so do probably most of the people that frequent thaivisa. Having very slow traffic suddenly appearing in the outside lane is asking for trouble, we all know that, but the Thai way of thinking often isn't the same as farang. Maybe they build junctions that way because it's a whole lot cheaper than building bridges or underpasses, after all, life does seem to be cheap here. In the UK they would redesign an accident black spot, I don't think they bother to do that here.

[Heng]

Thailand just can't win can it?

If the road system is inadequate, a bunch of Farang cry out for more roads, when they propose to build more roads, a bunch of Farang cry out that it's wrong, always stressing how the Thai people are unable to think and act as well as Farangs.

As evidenced by the amount of continued whinging, I don't think "Thailand" really cares. As a local, I for one find threads like "my apartment security is out to get me" "if someone cuts in front of me again in KFC I'm going postal" "they rented out an orangutan for me to dance with in front of the whole school" etc. &lt;deleted&gt;' hilarious.

Regarding the toll-free roads... I don't think they should introduce the word "free" to one of the few gov't departments that actually is operating in the black. 20-30 Baht at least per leg at least. If people have the excess funds to download ringtones, buy fastfood, etc. they can afford the toll tax.

[sierra01]

I for one am not against them building new roads, I was questioning if the other 11 roads will actually get built. Plans to do this, plans to do that, and nothing actually happening, are a fact of life here.

As for paying to use certain roads, that's ok with me as long as the money collected is used to maintain them properly, and doesn't just disappear into pockets.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

Thailand just can't win can it?

If the road system is inadequate, a bunch of Farang cry out for more roads, when they propose to build more roads, a bunch of Farang cry out that it's wrong, always stressing how the Thai people are unable to think and act as well as Farangs.

If the Oil Depot that blew up in England over the weekend had been an Oil depot in Thailand, a bunch of Farangs would be saying how this accident could only happen in Thailand.

I think you guys need to take off your blinkers.

We all know how perfect it is in your own countries of birth and how you have no problems at all there, ( why leave ? ) but give Thailand a chance to progress in the way that Thai people see fit.

The state most western countries find themselves in is down to who ? 

I bet you would love to blame Thais for the poor state of your own countries too eh, but wait a minute, western countries are run by Farangs, so what went wrong?

Get real.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I completely agree. A couple of weeks ago I met a guy who told me he would never live in Thailand permanently because the health system was so much better back home.

He's from the UK. Britain has the dirtiest hospitals in eurpoe. People are dropping dead all over the place from MRSA.

In Thailand can you go to a private hospital see a doctor with 5 minutes notice and be out within half an hour - all for less than 500 baht.

You're lucky if you can see a doctor half an hour after your appointment time in the UK.

And the health system is inferior how?

[Heng]

I for one am not against them building new roads, I was questioning if the other 11 roads will actually get built.  Plans to do this, plans to do that, and nothing actually happening, are a fact of life here. 

Where are you living? I run into road construction nearly every single day in Bangkok and every kind of construction in Chonburi each week. I'd say things are being built at a frenetic pace.

[sierra01]

Pakkret, near to where they're building the new elevated road and bridge over the river. Projects maybe being started but the pace of construction isn't that quick. They did put the steel flyovers up quickly at Lad Phrao though, that was steel and not concrete. Normal road building quality isn't up to much either, 10cm of tarmac on packed earth and gravel doesn't last long with overloaded trucks pounding it constantly, in a year a new road is full of bumpy botched repairs, sunk in places, and truck wheel tracks appearing. Cheap in the short term but expensive in the long run.

[Heng]

Road quality, totally agree with you there. Nevertheless, I find the construction pace 'fast enough' with what they are working with (essentially labor heavy, machinery light building teams).

[astral]

Please Thai civil engineers... learn to build bypasses around major cities... learn to build exit and entrance ramps onto highways... think safety above convenience.  Think outside the box.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thailand should be nominated as the HUB for BOX THINKING.

No-one ever goes outside it!!

[sierra01]

No nomination needed Astral!

[sonthaya]

Thailand just can't win can it?

If the road system is inadequate, a bunch of Farang cry out for more roads, when they propose to build more roads, a bunch of Farang cry out that it's wrong, always stressing how the Thai people are unable to think and act as well as Farangs.

If the Oil Depot that blew up in England over the weekend had been an Oil depot in Thailand, a bunch of Farangs would be saying how this accident could only happen in Thailand.

I think you guys need to take off your blinkers.

We all know how perfect it is in your own countries of birth and how you have no problems at all there, ( why leave ? ) but give Thailand a chance to progress in the way that Thai people see fit.

The state most western countries find themselves in is down to who ? 

I bet you would love to blame Thais for the poor state of your own countries too eh, but wait a minute, western countries are run by Farangs, so what went wrong?

Get real.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are right, why do people always complain about the way things are done in Thailand, we make even more mistakes in our home countries

Edited December 12, 2005 by sonthaya

[greenwanderer108]

I love Thailand for it is the land of my maternal ancestral roots. So I'm not complaining about everything Thais do wrong and how my birth country is any better, etc. I wouldn't have chose Thailand over USA if I felt that way.

It achens me more when I see a unique culture/country fading away as it tries to emulate the material/superficial aspects of the west, though. Particularly with infrastructure/transportation modernization.

You want to talk about the 'Thai way' Ok, for more than a thousand years, the 'Thai way' has been via the water---wether it be the canal, river, or ocean. Take a look of the condition these transport routes/options after the last 150 years of westernization.

Anytime, I hear more news about roads/road construction here, it sickens me...

I don't care how many motorways, offramps, onramps, overpasses you build...In the long run, it causes more problems than it solves. Any city planner/engineer from any country can tell you this...but wait, it's not city planners/engineers making the decisions..

Who is?...well it shouldn't surprise you how many of those in charge also have investments in the automobile/oil industries. That's right, the more cars there are on the road, the more money in someone's pocket...who cares about the air quality, traffic congestion, and sustainable efficient infrastructure.

They need to take these billions of baht out of these concrete mazes around the country and invest in real infrastructure projects that will benefit Thailand for the better in the future. Do it right from the start.

I don't think its fair to generalize that 'Thais' don't know what they're doing. I think really it's those with decision making power/capital that has 'his' (need I elaborate) own interests in mind. He and his puppets might preach they have the countries infrastructure interests in mind, but anyone can see this is not the case. Every time there is a possibility to proceed with the master transit plan in Bkk, who's the first to disagree/delay? And what excuse does he fall back on? That these motorway construction plans are more practical and necesarry, etc. etc. etc.

I said it before and I'll point it out again. The highway business made the klongs obsolete, and those profiting will be dammed if mass transit will take over Just do a google on Bangkok's tramway system in the 50's. Bet many of you didn't know about that...Is it a cooincidence that it shut down right about the time of the introduction/implementation of the highway?

If western emulated development is absolutely necesarry, don't follow in the footsteps of suburbia america...if you haven't noticed, the west is only now trying to make up for its mistake with urban sprawl---moustrap mazes, etc...and they have the budgets to deal with the problem. Thailand doesn't.

[greenwanderer108]

If Thailand is so infatuated with modernizing like the west...maybe they should learn some of the wests' mistakes before getting highway happy.

The Destruction of Urban & Rural Britain

Even the advocates of Globalised Capitalism are prepared to admit it and most of us have known it all along; British cities are no longer pleasant places in which to live. A 2002 study conducted by the UN concluded that many British cities scored appallingly low on quality of life indexes. It is not difficult to understand why. Most British towns and cities are now architecturally bland and overbearing filled with identical, crumbling semi-detached and terrace houses and decaying factory buildings. Modern urban environments are crime-ridden, congested with traffic, inundated with poisonous exhaust fumes and traffic noise, littered and are lacking in native culture, community and local economic infrastructure. Quality of life in such an environment is quite low. The destruction of neighbourhood shops and local economies has ruined the economic foundations of small communities. The Ecologist magazine estimates that as many as 30,000 local economic outlets closed in Britain between 1995 and 2000. If this trend continues, all o the UK 's local economic outlets will close by 2050. Without local economic outlets, communities rapidly become cultural and economic ghost towns. In such environments, crime and unemployment tend to accelerate. People live as strangers to their own neighbours; apprehensive of everyone they meet, for fear of theft or assault. Decades of poor planning, inappropriate investment, mass-immigration and untempered commercialism, have produced inhumane urban environments in which very few people are now happy to live.

New homes in the countryside

The unsurprising result is that unprecedented numbers of British people are attempting to leave our cities and find new homes within the countryside. The Labour government has recently unveiled plans to construct up to 1.2 million new suburban homes within England alone, consuming an estimated 192,000 acres of predominantly green field land. Most experts agree that this program is unlikely to provide sufficient levels of housing, given the rising trend of single occupant housing and massive immigration. It is likely that up to seven million new homes will be required over the next thirty years, if current trends continue. This will convert one million acres of British countryside into building land. Worst of all, this estimate does not include the area consumed by all of the extra roads and infrastructure required to support the new development. Over the next 20-30 years, a network of tarmac roads and characterless housing estates will be constructed across huge swathes of Britain 's most beautiful countryside, converting many parts of Britain into a jungle of concrete and tarmac. This will result in devastating damage to Britain 's ailing natural ecosystems and the decimation of rural communities.

Car dependency

People living within these new 'rural' towns will be entirely dependent upon their cars for all transportation needs. They will also need to travel further in order to get to work, given that the construction of these new towns will spread the population over a much wider area than was the case in more traditional urban developments. The enormous wave of sub-urban construction is therefore likely to increase traffic congestion and stimulate the need for even more roads. At a time of rising oil prices and rapidly deteriorating natural environments, it is difficult to imagine a less sustainable mode of development. The paradox grows wider when one considers the burden of taxation and regulation that has been placed upon motorists by the present government. One is forced to ask the question as to why a government so intent upon forcing drivers off of the road, would pursue an urban development plan that depends entirely upon the intensive use of personalised cars? What is more, Labour government proposals are likely to affect every town and village in the country, as local councils are given quotas for new housing developments. Far from providing attractive rural commodes and an escape from city life, these new developments are likely embody the worst of both worlds. They will offer none of the tranquillity and beauty of the countryside. They also fail to provide the vibrant cultural facilities and employment opportunities of a city.

Both rural and urban dwellers face an unappealing future. Britain 's traditional urban populations are likely to witness the final destruction of their already degraded communities and the end of their traditional way of life. Large towns and cities are likely to become foreign lands, as they are colonised by successive waves of immigration. Urban environments are also likely to become more polluted and congested. As urban environments become increasingly sprawled and dispersed, car-use is likely to rise.

Enormous city of the south-east

The plight of Britain 's rural population is no less horrific. Many of the UK 's natural ecosystems have already suffered severe damage due to road construction, urban sprawl and chemical intensive farming. One estimate suggested that since the end of WWII, England has lost approximately two-thirds of its meadowland. Many of Britain 's native grasses are facing extinction, along with a pyramid of other native species that depend upon these unique grassland environments. Road sprawl damages ecosystems in several different ways. Pollution from vehicle exhausts and wear surfaces is known to cause direct damage to plant, animal and insect life. Heavy metals and organic poisons are accumulating within our soils and water systems at a frightening rate. Many animals are killed attempting to cross roads. It is known that road sprawl is almost entirely responsible for the decline of the barn owl population. Roads damage ecosystems at all levels by dividing habitats and preventing free flow of species across them. Finally, the physical infrastructure of the roads consumes a huge area of land. In the 20 or so years since the mid 1980's, a network of roads, motorways and car parking spaces have consumed an area of land three times the size of Nottingham . This estimate does not include land that has been consumed by new housing or commercial developments. Recently unveiled Labour government plans condemn Britain to a horrific Blade-runner type future, with sub-urban development covering the land from coast to coast. The counties of Essex, Kent, Surrey, Berkshire, Sussex and the Thames gateway are likely to become heavily urbanised over the next few decades. The Labour government's urban development plan will effectively convert the Southeast Quartet of England into a single enormous city. Many previously small and secluded country villages in other parts of the country are likely to evolve into heavily congested towns over the next few decades.

Taken from

This Webpage

http://www.bnp.org.uk/

[Heng]

I love Thailand for it is the land of my maternal ancestral roots. So I'm not complaining about everything Thais do wrong and how my birth country is any better, etc. I wouldn't have chose Thailand over USA if I felt that way.

It achens me more when I see a unique culture/country fading away as it tries to emulate the material/superficial aspects of the west, though. Particularly with infrastructure/transportation modernization.

You want to talk about the 'Thai way' Ok, for more than a thousand years, the 'Thai way' has been via the water---wether it be the canal, river, or ocean. Take a look of the condition these transport routes/options after the last 150 years of westernization.

Anytime, I hear more news about roads/road construction here, it sickens me...

I don't care how many motorways, offramps, onramps, overpasses you build...In the long run, it causes more problems than it solves. Any city planner/engineer from any country can tell you this...but wait, it's not city planners/engineers making the decisions..

Who is?...well it shouldn't surprise you how many of those in charge also have investments in the automobile/oil industries. That's right, the more cars there are on the road, the more money in someone's pocket...who cares about the air quality, traffic congestion, and sustainable efficient infrastructure.

They need to take these billions of baht out of these concrete mazes around the country and invest in real infrastructure projects that will benefit Thailand for the better in the future. Do it right from the start.

I don't think its fair to generalize that 'Thais' don't know what they're doing. I think really it's those with decision making power/capital that has 'his' (need I elaborate) own interests in mind. He and his puppets might preach they have the countries infrastructure interests in mind, but anyone can see this is not the case. Every time there is a possibility to proceed with the master transit plan in Bkk, who's the first to disagree/delay? And what excuse does he fall back on? That these motorway construction plans are more practical and necesarry, etc. etc. etc.    

I said it before and I'll point it out again. The highway business made the klongs obsolete, and those profiting will be dammed if mass transit will take over Just do a google on Bangkok's tramway system in the 50's. Bet many of you didn't know about that...Is it a cooincidence that it shut down right about the time of the introduction/implementation of the highway?

If western emulated development is absolutely necesarry, don't follow in the footsteps of suburbia america...if you haven't noticed, the west is only now trying to make up for its mistake with urban sprawl---moustrap mazes, etc...and they have the budgets to deal with the problem. Thailand doesn't.

You'll get over this phase (IMO), GreenW. I went through this ideological thing similar to yours sometime in late high school, early college. You'll gradually feel less and less about saving the environment, the deteriorating social fabric, etc. and spend more time thinking how to maximize your interest income, where best to buy second and third homes, where to send your kids to international school and abroad to study, and so forth. That in the end, it's your family that matters, NOT as much other people's, stranger's families that don't care about you (and wait a minute, why should I care for them???)...

...and your family's future, like it or not, is going to cost real capital to prepare for. It's at that point that you'll realize that 32,000 Baht a month and time wasted worrying about air pollution just isn't going to cut it.

If you're a senior citizen/retired, with no dependents, then my humble apologies, as you've likely earned the right to rant, whinge, and stare out that window and ponder things.

[sierra01]

I love Thailand for it is the land of my maternal ancestral roots. So I'm not complaining about everything Thais do wrong and how my birth country is any better, etc. I wouldn't have chose Thailand over USA if I felt that way.

It achens me more when I see a unique culture/country fading away as it tries to emulate the material/superficial aspects of the west, though. Particularly with infrastructure/transportation modernization.

You want to talk about the 'Thai way' Ok, for more than a thousand years, the 'Thai way' has been via the water---wether it be the canal, river, or ocean. Take a look of the condition these transport routes/options after the last 150 years of westernization.

Anytime, I hear more news about roads/road construction here, it sickens me...

I don't care how many motorways, offramps, onramps, overpasses you build...In the long run, it causes more problems than it solves. Any city planner/engineer from any country can tell you this...but wait, it's not city planners/engineers making the decisions..

Who is?...well it shouldn't surprise you how many of those in charge also have investments in the automobile/oil industries. That's right, the more cars there are on the road, the more money in someone's pocket...who cares about the air quality, traffic congestion, and sustainable efficient infrastructure.

They need to take these billions of baht out of these concrete mazes around the country and invest in real infrastructure projects that will benefit Thailand for the better in the future. Do it right from the start.

I don't think its fair to generalize that 'Thais' don't know what they're doing. I think really it's those with decision making power/capital that has 'his' (need I elaborate) own interests in mind. He and his puppets might preach they have the countries infrastructure interests in mind, but anyone can see this is not the case. Every time there is a possibility to proceed with the master transit plan in Bkk, who's the first to disagree/delay? And what excuse does he fall back on? That these motorway construction plans are more practical and necesarry, etc. etc. etc.    

I said it before and I'll point it out again. The highway business made the klongs obsolete, and those profiting will be dammed if mass transit will take over Just do a google on Bangkok's tramway system in the 50's. Bet many of you didn't know about that...Is it a cooincidence that it shut down right about the time of the introduction/implementation of the highway?

If western emulated development is absolutely necesarry, don't follow in the footsteps of suburbia america...if you haven't noticed, the west is only now trying to make up for its mistake with urban sprawl---moustrap mazes, etc...and they have the budgets to deal with the problem. Thailand doesn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why are you talking about Klongs? That's 19th century transport. A good road and rail network is vital to a country's expansion and improvement. Thailand needs to export, klongs are way way to slow to get the product to the ports and away. Thai logistics costs are roughly double that of most Western countries, that's a big hinderance to the country, I read that somewhere a few months ago. Poor quality roads and lack of roads increases costs and and that makes exports more expensive, and home prices too.

The country doesn't have to lose it's identity to improve itself, but it also can't afford to stand still, the world is continually moving forward.

[kat]

I love Thailand for it is the land of my maternal ancestral roots. So I'm not complaining about everything Thais do wrong and how my birth country is any better, etc. I wouldn't have chose Thailand over USA if I felt that way.

It achens me more when I see a unique culture/country fading away as it tries to emulate the material/superficial aspects of the west, though. Particularly with infrastructure/transportation modernization.

You want to talk about the 'Thai way' Ok, for more than a thousand years, the 'Thai way' has been via the water---wether it be the canal, river, or ocean. Take a look of the condition these transport routes/options after the last 150 years of westernization.

Anytime, I hear more news about roads/road construction here, it sickens me...

I don't care how many motorways, offramps, onramps, overpasses you build...In the long run, it causes more problems than it solves. Any city planner/engineer from any country can tell you this...but wait, it's not city planners/engineers making the decisions..

Who is?...well it shouldn't surprise you how many of those in charge also have investments in the automobile/oil industries. That's right, the more cars there are on the road, the more money in someone's pocket...who cares about the air quality, traffic congestion, and sustainable efficient infrastructure.

They need to take these billions of baht out of these concrete mazes around the country and invest in real infrastructure projects that will benefit Thailand for the better in the future. Do it right from the start.

I don't think its fair to generalize that 'Thais' don't know what they're doing. I think really it's those with decision making power/capital that has 'his' (need I elaborate) own interests in mind. He and his puppets might preach they have the countries infrastructure interests in mind, but anyone can see this is not the case. Every time there is a possibility to proceed with the master transit plan in Bkk, who's the first to disagree/delay? And what excuse does he fall back on? That these motorway construction plans are more practical and necesarry, etc. etc. etc.    

I said it before and I'll point it out again. The highway business made the klongs obsolete, and those profiting will be dammed if mass transit will take over Just do a google on Bangkok's tramway system in the 50's. Bet many of you didn't know about that...Is it a cooincidence that it shut down right about the time of the introduction/implementation of the highway?

If western emulated development is absolutely necesarry, don't follow in the footsteps of suburbia america...if you haven't noticed, the west is only now trying to make up for its mistake with urban sprawl---moustrap mazes, etc...and they have the budgets to deal with the problem. Thailand doesn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ok, I am an urban planner from another country. I can confidently tell you that the concept of planning in Thailand is non-existent, except as faux ministries within the government. And they're fake, because planning does not happen in the true sense, only the rubber stamping of projects and large infrastructure enterprises that promise lots of kickbacks. It is a common urban planning adage that building more highways and roads brings more traffic. When there are few roads, this is not a bad thing, but when there are excess roads and expressways that cut right through residential areas, this is a disaster, as we can clearly see in Bangkok. The lack of planning is evident in the fact that real estate development was not accompanied by the necessary infrastructure to service the increase of residential pressure on existing, and insufficient, infrastructure.

You also cannot really compare urban development in the West to Thailand, and not America, neither. Road construction in America was initially undertaken by the Department of Defense, and the flight to surburbia was about class, race, and mortgage subsidies. In Thailand, road and large infrastructure construction has always been, and still remains, a vital source of kickbacks and skimming - "eat the state". Everytime you see an irregularity in a road or any other municipal ammenity, you can safely assume that the original project was skimmed and replaced by inferior materials and construction. This is a well-established fact, and was recently discussed in one of the English newspapers in the last few weeks. Blaming everything on Westernization is a futile exercise, because the concept of "eating the state" is distinctly Thai, due to its historical and cultural context.

Also, the polluted canals have NOTHING to do with automobiles. The polluted canals are due to the increase of poor migrants from other parts of Thailand, that reside next to these canals use them as waste receptacles (not entirely their fault, if they have fewer options). It is also a well known fact that many companies use the canals as dumping grounds for chemicals (also, not unknown in the states). There is a problem with urban sprawl in the states and automobile dependency, but that developed under different conditons and a different history.

If most of the population in Thailand paid taxes, and they didn't initiate so many large and mostly irrevelant infrastructure projects for kickbacks, Thailand would be able to afford the development it needed.

[kat]

"You'll get over this phase (IMO), GreenW. I went through this ideological thing similar to yours sometime in late high school, early college. You'll gradually feel less and less about saving the environment, the deteriorating social fabric, etc. and spend more time thinking how to maximize your interest income, where best to buy second and third homes, where to send your kids to international school and abroad to study, and so forth. That in the end, it's your family that matters, NOT as much other people's, stranger's families that don't care about you (and wait a minute, why should I care for them???)... "

Heng, I'm sorry but I find this attitude to be the source of many issues that are detrimental to society, especially in Thailand. It is self-centered, and only focused on money at any cost. I understand the need to provide for your family and feel financially secure, but there should also be a sense of responsibility to society, and that should be an institutionalized requirement, via regulations and enforcement. There is no accountability to society here.

I view this as a fundamental obstacle to Thailands development, except in the case of shopping malls, excessive highway development, and the very few on the top of the pyramid, all looking out for their own interests with no regard for anything else. That is not a society, that is a clan.

[Heng]

"You'll get over this phase (IMO), GreenW.   I went through this ideological thing similar to yours sometime in late high school, early college.    You'll gradually feel less and less about saving the environment, the deteriorating social fabric, etc. and spend more time thinking how to maximize your interest income, where best to buy second and third homes, where to send your kids to international school and abroad to study, and so forth.   That in the end, it's your family that matters, NOT as much other people's, stranger's families that don't care about you (and wait a minute, why should I care for them???)... "

Heng, I'm sorry but I find this attitude to be the source of many issues that are detrimental to society, especially in Thailand.  It is self-centered, and only focused on money at any cost.  I understand the need to provide for your family and feel financially secure, but there should also be a sense of responsibility to society, and that should be an institutionalized requirement, via regulations and enforcement.  There is no accountability to society here. 

I view this as a fundamental obstacle to Thailands development, except in the case of shopping malls, excessive highway development, and the very few on the top of the pyramid, all looking out for their own interests with no regard for anything else.  That is not a society, that is a clan.

I certainly give back, I just don't advertise it. I just feel that in many cases those that are doing the complaining or calling for social revolution have often looked over the first step... that charity and responsibility begins at home. I believe that the "successful" family unit in Thailand does more for society (indirectly of course, and certainly not as its primary goal) than "successful" family units in much of the west. Clans/families make up societies, using an evil sounding word to describe clusters of people doesn't make it any less true.

Edited December 12, 2005 by Heng

[greenwanderer108]

You also cannot really compare urban development in the West to Thailand, and not America, neither.  Road construction in America was initially undertaken by the Department of Defense, and the flight to surburbia was about class, race, and mortgage subsidies.  In Thailand, road and large infrastructure construction has always been, and still remains, a vital source of kickbacks and skimming - "eat the state".  Everytime you see an irregularity in a road or any other municipal ammenity, you can safely assume that the original project was skimmed and replaced by inferior materials and construction.  This is a well-established fact, and was recently discussed in one of the English newspapers in the last few weeks.  Blaming everything on Westernization is a futile exercise, because the concept of "eating the state" is distinctly Thai, due to its historical and cultural context.

In what historical/cultural context can you provide that suggests 'eating the state' is distinctly Thai? While I can agree with most of what you say here, can you elaborate with more specific reference.

Also, the polluted canals have NOTHING to do with automobiles.  The polluted canals are due to the increase of poor migrants from other parts of Thailand, that reside next to these canals use them as waste receptacles (not entirely their fault, if they have fewer options).  It is also a well known fact that many companies use the canals as dumping grounds for chemicals (also, not unknown in the states).  There is a problem with urban sprawl in the states and automobile dependency, but that developed under different conditons and a different history.

If most of the population in Thailand paid taxes, and they didn't initiate so many large and mostly irrevelant infrastructure projects for kickbacks, Thailand would be able to afford the development it needed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

While I wasn't suggesting anything like 'the canals are polluted because of automobiles' I think you'll find the two closely connected and related. In this sense, canal maintence and care was devalued after the automobile/motorway/road construction craze.

What I'm saying is the use and reliance of canals became obsolete as a result of the car and highway craze of the last 50 years...and while some will argue that automobiles are superior and more efficient than boats, I will beg to differ.

Try taking a boat either A. Chao Praya River Express or B. San Saeb canal the full distance of either. Than try the same distance/similar route via bus. After you've done one or both and have real comparison, then come back and tell me about your experience.

[kat]

"You'll get over this phase (IMO), GreenW.   I went through this ideological thing similar to yours sometime in late high school, early college.    You'll gradually feel less and less about saving the environment, the deteriorating social fabric, etc. and spend more time thinking how to maximize your interest income, where best to buy second and third homes, where to send your kids to international school and abroad to study, and so forth.   That in the end, it's your family that matters, NOT as much other people's, stranger's families that don't care about you (and wait a minute, why should I care for them???)... "

Heng, I'm sorry but I find this attitude to be the source of many issues that are detrimental to society, especially in Thailand.  It is self-centered, and only focused on money at any cost.  I understand the need to provide for your family and feel financially secure, but there should also be a sense of responsibility to society, and that should be an institutionalized requirement, via regulations and enforcement.  There is no accountability to society here. 

I view this as a fundamental obstacle to Thailands development, except in the case of shopping malls, excessive highway development, and the very few on the top of the pyramid, all looking out for their own interests with no regard for anything else.  That is not a society, that is a clan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I certainly give back, I just don't advertise it. I just feel that in many cases those that are doing the complaining or calling for social revolution have often looked over the first step... that charity and responsibility begins at home. I believe that the "successful" family unit in Thailand does more for society (indirectly of course, and certainly not as its primary goal) than "successful" family units in much of the west. Clans/families make up societies, using an evil sounding word to describe clusters of people doesn't make it any less true.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Heng, I love your smiley faces. It's good that you give back. And I understand what you are saying about building a finacially secure future. It also makes sense that you have to take care of yourself before you can care for others, but I have seen a lot of social cohesion between groups with nothing, including Thailand.

However, I really don't see alot of successful family groups doing much for the rest of Thailand, except if it benefits them (i.e. Toxin's populist give-aways). And, I would much rather see it differently. Please correct me if I'm wrong and tell me how.

You also cannot really compare urban development in the West to Thailand, and not America, neither.  Road construction in America was initially undertaken by the Department of Defense, and the flight to surburbia was about class, race, and mortgage subsidies.  In Thailand, road and large infrastructure construction has always been, and still remains, a vital source of kickbacks and skimming - "eat the state".  Everytime you see an irregularity in a road or any other municipal ammenity, you can safely assume that the original project was skimmed and replaced by inferior materials and construction.  This is a well-established fact, and was recently discussed in one of the English newspapers in the last few weeks.  Blaming everything on Westernization is a futile exercise, because the concept of "eating the state" is distinctly Thai, due to its historical and cultural context.

In what historical/cultural context can you provide that suggests 'eating the state' is distinctly Thai? While I can agree with most of what you say here, can you elaborate with more specific reference.

Also, the polluted canals have NOTHING to do with automobiles.  The polluted canals are due to the increase of poor migrants from other parts of Thailand, that reside next to these canals use them as waste receptacles (not entirely their fault, if they have fewer options).  It is also a well known fact that many companies use the canals as dumping grounds for chemicals (also, not unknown in the states).  There is a problem with urban sprawl in the states and automobile dependency, but that developed under different conditons and a different history.

If most of the population in Thailand paid taxes, and they didn't initiate so many large and mostly irrevelant infrastructure projects for kickbacks, Thailand would be able to afford the development it needed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. While I wasn't suggesting anything like 'the canals are polluted because of automobiles' I think you'll find the two closely connected and related. In this sense, canal maintence and care was devalued after the automobile/motorway/road construction craze.

2. What I'm saying is the use and reliance of canals became obsolete as a result of the car and highway craze of the last 50 years...and while some will argue that automobiles are superior and more efficient than boats, I will beg to differ.

3. Try taking a boat either A. Chao Praya River Express or B. San Saeb canal the full distance of either. Than try the same distance/similar route via bus. After you've done one or both and have real comparison, then come back and tell me about your experience.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. GW, I think the two are related, but that is different than saying it is the cause. I think like a lot of natural resources here, the canals weren't valued or devalued as anything other than it's utility to the population. The idea of environmental conservation here is barely a thought yet. In other words, there never was canal maintenance for the sake of canals. Look around at stagnant pools of water, even on university campuses. The development phase here still views natural resources as something to be consumed, used and converted into income.

2. I think the use of canals has obviously decreased, but they still serve a vital function for many people who want to zip across the city and avoid traffic. But much of the city has now developed much further out from the canals, so some sort of other transport is necessary. As for myself, I love the river taxis, but they are not always convenient. I'm a skytrain and underground transport person myself. I much rather see train linkages expanded rather than more highway construction. I have never owned a car by-the-way.

3. I've done both GW. I'm not arguing about your position on less automobiles and more clean transport. I was disagreeing with your reasoning. In fact, I agree with your position on cleaner transport 100% (although, I always cringe when I see a bicyclist here - out of fear for them). But yes, I always prefer the boats or trains any day. Unfortunately, I am often forced to rely on buses or taxis due to the incomplete nature of public transport here.

In terms of your question about eating the state, I would suggest a good historical account of Thailand. One that specifically talks about economic development from the Sak Dina period on is: The Economy of the Thai Village (it has a green cover); cannot remember the author right now, but he/she is an economist at Chula. Also, historically, the first civil servants in Thailand (and elsewhere in othe parts of Asia), did not receive a salary but lived entirely off of patron/client relationships. It was built into the customary and cultural framework, and is still present today.

[Heng]

snip

Heng, I love your smiley faces.  It's good that you give back.  And I understand what you are saying about building a finacially secure future.  It also makes sense that you have to take care of yourself before you can care for others, but I have seen a lot of social cohesion between groups with nothing, including Thailand.

However, I really don't see alot of successful family groups doing much for the rest of Thailand, except if it benefits them (i.e. Toxin's populist give-aways).  And, I would much rather see it differently.  Please correct me if I'm wrong and tell me how.    

As for the "rest of Thailand," you're right. But again, I tend to look at things from the grassroots level. I'm talking about the successful family unit as in your "average" better to do family. That's "average" as in only a few dozen people in the whole world know your family's last name when hearing it. These are the folks running 1 branch gold shops, paint shops, hardware stores, opticians, dentists, etc.

Let's say the family includes 2 or 3 children, and a servant or two. Add to that the ubquitous disadvantaged (for whatever reason) cousin or two. In my experience, the children of the servants (and try not to cringe, we're well past the days of kow-towing maids and peons... these are often more like au pairs, nannies, and are referred to as "brother" or "sister" to household members) AND the cousins get their education paid for by the heads of the nuclear family. True, not as high a quality as the children by blood (the formula would be something like... kids go to Chula, one kid maybe gets to go abroad to a state school in the US, disadvantaged cousin goes to Sri Burapa, servants kids get to go to commercial college, servants themselves can study on the weekends if they want), but better than nothing, and IMO better than what a family in the west would do for 2-3 relative "outsiders" to the family. In percentage terms, 100% more. And that's with just one deed. Further on down the road, these fringe family members will have limited access to the family network and contacts and likely will be able to care for their own families.

Naturally, it doesn't have to follow the above pattern of course. At my house for example, we don't have disadvantaged cousins, but I do send a niece and nephew (and not even a real blood relation, more like a close friend of my parents... note, that's my parent's friend, NOT even my friend) whose father hasn't done so well in work and business to primary school... Anyway, no need to go into too much detail as none of this is for face (lest the critics cry out things like... Toxin just sets up scholarships and universities for face, he doesn't care about the PEOPLE!!!), it's simply a way of life.

+

Edited December 12, 2005 by Heng

[Orion76]

Thailand just can't win can it?

If the road system is inadequate, a bunch of Farang cry out for more roads, when they propose to build more roads, a bunch of Farang cry out that it's wrong, always stressing how the Thai people are unable to think and act as well as Farangs.

If the Oil Depot that blew up in England over the weekend had been an Oil depot in Thailand, a bunch of Farangs would be saying how this accident could only happen in Thailand.

I think you guys need to take off your blinkers.

We all know how perfect it is in your own countries of birth and how you have no problems at all there, ( why leave ? ) but give Thailand a chance to progress in the way that Thai people see fit.

The state most western countries find themselves in is down to who ? 

I bet you would love to blame Thais for the poor state of your own countries too eh, but wait a minute, western countries are run by Farangs, so what went wrong?

Get real.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was about to post about the same thing but you already did it for me

Basically for every news article that is posted there are about a hundred bitter old farang responders with comments about how stupid Thailand is, no matter what the article is about.

Folks, if Thailand sucks so bad it's really not all that hard to return to your home country where everything is perfect, there are no stupid politicians and everything is done just the way you think it should be done

Come to think of it, what are all you guys doing here in the first place?

[Otis]

Ah, just what Thailand needs.  More roads leading smack into the middle to town centers.  Jeez, when will they realise that more roads does not necessarily mean less congestion on the roadways.

Please Thai civil engineers... learn to build bypasses around major cities... learn to build exit and entrance ramps onto highways... think safety above convenience.  Think outside the box.

As an outsider, it makes me wonder what was the state of mind of the engineers that built the road systems in Thailand.  Similar curiousities run rampant in my mind concerning who designed the streets in Bangkok.

Does anybody share my views that the flow of traffic on a major highway is "somewhat" interrupted when a 5-tonne vehicle makes a u-turn right onto a lane where cars are travelling 120km per hour.  What were the engineers thinking when they built such a catastrophe?  (They probably were not thinking, so as not to break Thai custom).

It makes me wonder if on my next holiday, if should I play russian roulette or should I come to Thailand?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe it wasn't a design, but more of an evolution. If you are not asking a rhetorical question, check with VonThunen's theory of urbanization. It seems consistent with my memory of it. The real trick is to adapt to today's realities. Really.

Otis