Foreign Atm Charges

[hml367]

This is the reply USAA bank sent me regarding ATM rate versus over the counter:

Dear Mr. X,

Thank you for your ATM/Debit card inquiry with regards to using the card internationally. The foreign currency exchange rate should be the same when using the card at an ATM or for a signature cash withdrawal request. However, we do suggest contacting the financial institution where the card will be used to inquire if any other fees for the signature withdrawal may be applied.

We value your business and the opportunity to serve all your financial needs.

Thank you,

Colen Burke

USAA

That's a nice note from USAA. But frankly, they're pretty much likely to be clueless as to what exchange rate practices banks in foreign countries use, or even if different banks use different methods including things such as DCC.

USAA certainly has transactions from all over the world since they deal, for the most part, and were started for, military personnel that move around the world a lot. I would even venture to say that USAA has more transactions in Thailand than even you know about. There seem to be many people using their services in Thailand.

Maybe many people have different experiences than you. I posted what I get going inside Bangkok Bank. I have experienced the same at Bank of Ayudayah.

My most recent "over the counter" transaction at Bangkok Bank was 100,000 THB on Saturday, March 3. The amount posted to my account on March 5 was $3,287.20.

I would suggest that anyone having a cash withdrawal converted at the Dynamic Currency Conversion rate at SCB ask them why. I don't use them so I don't know. Anyone have an example?

MSPain

Edited March 6, 2012 by hml367

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

HML, I never said BKK Bank or Ayudhya were using DCC for counter withdrawals. I did say a variety of past posts from members here have indicated that SCB is doing so..and SCB's web site on currency exchange that I posted above clearly seems to show they are, if you look at their section on DCC and credit card advances.

That's one of the points I was making above about counter withdrawals. Nothing inherently wrong or bad with them. But they do have an element of uncertainty more than is involved in ATM transactions. For example, what rate is the Thai bank doing your counter withdrawal going to use? VISA network rate for ATMs? That bank's buying TT rate for the day? A DCC rate? And how can you know/do you know when you step up to the counter (assuming the teller doesn't tell you to go outside and use their ATM instead).

BTW, the counter withdrawal info you posted above re the 100,000 from BKK Bank produced a perfectly good exchange rate of 30.42. Weekend transactions are a bit harder to compare on... but the BOT IER rate for Monday was 30.65 and the Xrates.com rate was 30.64. BKK Bank's final Friday buying TT rate was 30.43 and their opening Monday buying TT rate was 30.47.

Edited March 6, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

BTW, fyi, here's a past TV thread on Dynamic Currency Conversion filled with reports from TV members about NOT being asked or given any choice before merchants went ahead and rung up their transactions in DCC with its attendant piss-poor exchange rates... This one one.. there are many other similar postings.

Edited March 6, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Awk]

Based on past reports here by members who have done them, SCB simply used their DCC rate for counter withdrawals. There was no which rate would you like to use discussion at the teller counter....

I had not considered before that the rate I would get by a over the counter withdrawal ("cash advance" I believe it

is called here in Thailand) could be different, but after reading this thread I experimented with it on Saturday.

I did one cash advance inside SCB, and afterwards I went to the SCB ATM outside and withdrew money from the

ATM, using the same VISA card. The number of Baht per my VISA cards local currency I got were this:

Cash advance: 5.3185

ATM : 5.3186

I.e., a miniscule difference in favour of ATM, but I suspect this is simply due to rounding (the cash advance amount I withdrew

was unfortunately not the same as the ATM amount).

And frankly, notwithstanding what the VISA website says, I've personally run into merchants here in Thailand, as have others here, who wiill automatically ring up purchases in DCC. And if you try to object, they'll insist the rate is the same (not less) and/or that that's the only way they can ring up the transaction on your foreign card. The King Power Pullman Hotel and its restaurants is one of those places, and I've posted about it here previously. And other members have posted about some Sizzler outlets doing the same kind of thing.

I have never experienced this at Sizzler (though I now always pay in cash as the Sizzler member card, which is great value for

money to me, gives a 10% discount if you pay in cash). And while I'm sure you know, others may not know they should

check their receipt before signing. If the receipt contains anything at all relating to any currency other than Bath, you can simply refuse to sign it. Just remember the amount/day and remember to check your credit card bill when you get it later. If you refused

to sign the receipt, but it still appears on your cc bill, it should be simple enough to contact your bank/cc-company and

dispute it.

In my experience, while it might take a little time to explain why you want them to ring it up again, most shops will eventually

understand what you mean and ring it up again.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks for that info, AWK... Re your counter withdrawal, BTW, were you using a VISA credit card or debit card for your SCB counter withdrawal?

As for Sizzler, I've personally never had that problem with Sizzler in BKK when using my U.S. VISA debit cards. But various members here seem to have had problems with that at the Sizzler in Pattaya...

http://www.thaivisa....power%20pullman

You're right about your general advice about DCC... in that... any time you see any currency amount on your purchase slip other than Thai BHT, don't sign it and ask the merchant to re-ring in Thai baht, nor your home country currency.

However, there have been various reports here where merchants have refused to re-ring DCC transactions or claim they can't or don't know how. I had one such experience a few months ago that put me off ever dealing with that particular merchant again.

See the following post on that subject:

http://www.thaivisa....ost__p__4939243

Edited March 6, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[mesquite]

For those who really want to go into this subject in depth:

http://www.flyerguide.com/wiki/index.php/Credit/Debit/ATM_Cards_and_Foreign_Exchange

[hml367]

HML, I never said BKK Bank or Ayudhya were using DCC for counter withdrawals. I did say a variety of past posts from members here have indicated that SCB is doing so..and SCB's web site on currency exchange that I posted above clearly seems to show they are, if you look at their section on DCC and credit card advances.

That's one of the points I was making above about counter withdrawals. Nothing inherently wrong or bad with them. But they do have an element of uncertainty more than is involved in ATM transactions. For example, what rate is the Thai bank doing your counter withdrawal going to use? VISA network rate for ATMs? That bank's buying TT rate for the day? A DCC rate? And how can you know/do you know when you step up to the counter (assuming the teller doesn't tell you to go outside and use their ATM instead).

BTW, the counter withdrawal info you posted above re the 100,000 from BKK Bank produced a perfectly good exchange rate of 30.42. Weekend transactions are a bit harder to compare on... but the BOT IER rate for Monday was 30.65 and the Xrates.com rate was 30.64. BKK Bank's final Friday buying TT rate was 30.43 and their opening Monday buying TT rate was 30.47.

I don't remember saying that you said anything about Bangkok Bank.. I may have. I'm not going to waste time looking. I posted what I get at Bangkok Bank and Bank of Ayudayah.

My general comment on doing an over the counter cash withdrawal is that the bank gives you local currency and it is settled in the local currency where the card is issued from with an appropriate exchange rate as indivated by the brand of the card. A person should check their transaction slip before signing in any case. If there is DCC, it should be clearly stated on the slip. If the merchant will not change it, then don't make the transaction, as you said you have done.

It is not clear to me that SCB does use the DCC. I tried contacting them through their web site and the contact doesn't work. I went to a nearby branch and there were too many people and all I wanted was information.

My experience is that on cash withdrawals you get the exchange rate indicated for the branded card you are using, whether at the ATM or over the counter.

I don't understand your direction. I will leave the discussion since you seem to have it all under control. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

My experiences have been posted for anyone wishing the information they asked for. Including what Visa Corporate USA has told me and what a USA bank has responded to my inquiry.

And as the original question was regarding the ATM fee, I think that has also been answered by many.

MSPain

Edited March 6, 2012 by hml367

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I think anyone posting details here of doing counter withdrawals is a very good thing...whatever the result may be.

While the workings of international ATM withdrawals here are pretty well understood and relatively consistent, there really hasn't been any good volume of TV members posting clear details of counter withdrawals here over time -- at least not enough to draw very firm conclusions.

So the more info that's developed and shared on the subject, the better everyone will understand whether it's a good/cost-effective alternative to ATM withdrawals.

[el jefe]

BTW, fyi, here's a past TV thread on Dynamic Currency Conversion filled with reports from TV members about NOT being asked or given any choice before merchants went ahead and rung up their transactions in DCC with its attendant piss-poor exchange rates... This one one.. there are many other similar postings.

http://www.thaivisa....ncy-conversion/

That thread is 5 years old. maybe when DCC was first introduced there were more problems. There was a more recent thread on this forum about 3 months ago, started by Vagabond, I think. I've probably been charged the DCC a dozen times in the last 6 months and only Bangkok Airways took more than 30 seconds to reverse it when asked.

As for counter withdrawals, I have no experience. I've solved the problem by using a Schwab debit card.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

That thread is 5 years old. maybe when DCC was first introduced there were more problems. There was a more recent thread on this forum about 3 months ago, started by Vagabond, I think. I've probably been charged the DCC a dozen times in the last 6 months and only Bangkok Airways took more than 30 seconds to reverse it when asked.

I could have picked any number of different threads with the same kinds of reports on the same issue... But that one happened to revolve around Chiang Mai, and this subforum is the CM one... so it seemed a good choice.

If you're looking for something more recent, the link I posted above re my own recent experience in BKK was just several months back last December. Different time and different place, but same kind of bad conduct on the part of merchants using DCC.

http://www.thaivisa....43#entry4939243

Edited March 6, 2012 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[el jefe]

That thread is 5 years old. maybe when DCC was first introduced there were more problems. There was a more recent thread on this forum about 3 months ago, started by Vagabond, I think. I've probably been charged the DCC a dozen times in the last 6 months and only Bangkok Airways took more than 30 seconds to reverse it when asked.

I could have picked any number of different threads with the same kinds of reports on the same issue... But that one happened to revolve around Chiang Mai, and this subforum is the CM one... so it seemed a good choice.

If you're looking for something more recent, the link I posted above re my own recent experience in BKK was just several months back last December. Different time and different place, but same kind of bad conduct on the part of merchants using DCC.

http://www.thaivisa....43#entry4939243

I agree, merchants are not permitted to use DCC without asking the customer first, but they do it anyway.

My point was that 5 years ago it was often a problem getting the merchant to reverse the charge and experiences with what was then a new procedure are meaningless. Now, 95% of the time they can do it in 30 seconds or less. Once in a while, as you proved, it's still a frustratingly long process. There have been several recent threads on the CM forum discussing this, specifically stating the merchants that use DCC automatically so that readers can prevent the problem before it occurs by asking the merchant to use baht while handing over the credit card.

[vagabond48]

I concur with eljefe. I have been eaten at holiday inn buffet and used my CC twice. The 1st time, I was charged a local currency rate. The 2nd time, a DCC rate. When I saw this I told the waiter, that I wanted the local currency rate and within a minute, he came back with what I wanted. For now on I will always tell the merchant that I want the local currency rate.

Note. I am not in Thailand so I may not be able to reply promptly.

[puck2]

I refer to my own post #51, especially the over-the-counter rates. Using Hml367 data

I assume your „transactions with a signature“ is identical with „ove the counter“. Under this condition, I‘m getting straight to the point:

in your case, you didn‘t lose any cent or $ for contacting a teller.

Explaining the 2 days which didn‘t match (with an asterisk) I said:

The differences in the fields with asterisks are only caused by the geological time difference between Th. and the US. (Later or on another day I would like to explain this.)

This was nonsense. Besides that I confused geological with geographic the other part of this sentence is also wrong. If you use a VISA-Card for a ATM-withdrawal the current debit is booked within a second on your card account.

Therefore I imagine that „signature withdrawals“ can have a delay on their way from the BBK-counter to the authorized stuff of the bank anywhere else. The first step of the bankers was a personnel job with the possibility of a time delay, here 1-day delay, depending on location and the daytime of the exchange. That's why you got the rate of the following day.

By VISA-Corp.

The exact rate you are charged depends on when the transaction is posted to the Visa system, which may be later than the day on which you paid, depending on how promptly each merchant handles their Visa transactions.

[puck2]

Maybe a little bit OT, but surely interesting for some guys using a Visa-DEBIT-Card. Debit card means in general your bank account, connected to the VISA-card, cannot run into minus by any transaction.

Sometimes it’s not easy to understand each other when talking about (money) cards, because there exists a wishy-washy concerning the terms. That is understandable, there are so many different types of cards, there are even debit cards with a character of credit cards.

But all VISA-cards have one in common, they are connected with your account of your card issuing bank or card issuing (money)company. In this thread I’ll call them BK. The BK you get your card from is the one which determines the details for your card and card account. And there are numerous differences in fees and conditions.

Every money moving by your Visa-card goes first to the VISA-company in the US, as far as I know in SFRA and immediately to your account of your card issuing BK. Why? The exchange rate is fixed by VISA and not by your BK as stated already so many times in this forum.

Now a very important point, as previously reported by Pib and a few experts under “Money…. “.

How does Visa calculate its rate?

Every day—except weekends, Memorial Day, Christmas Day and New Year's Day—Visa calculates the rate for the next day's transactions.

This means the exchange rate is already fixed by Visa, when the day starts. This is an exception (rather than a rule) for the credit card companies, and in salient contrast versus MasterCard (=MC).

The great thing with VISA is, this is an in-advance-fixed rate valid for 24 hours. So it doesn’t change within a day like the T/T of the local banks.

Another positive for Visa, you can see the rates even in advance on the VISA-Corp. website. And I can confirm that - with 1 exception - the rate for my bank account has been exactly the same like in the VISA-Corp. table. 1 or 2 cents are no difference for me. Because of this fact I do already my homework before I go to the ATM and learn how much the withdrawal will cost me in the money of my home country. When I return at home I see my calculation confirmed.

But there is a problem.

As we have 24 different time zones on our earth, the VISA-rate is exactly applied when the respective time zone starts the new day. But the exchange rate is not shown on the VISA-Corp. website before New York (NY) starts the new day (not SFRA to my surprise). I guess because of the financial centre.

What does that mean? You have to consider the time difference between here in Thailand and NY. You can see the new VISA-rates here in Thailand exactly at 12 am(=high noon), but have in memory: the VISA-rates of today are already applied since midnight Thai time. To say it in different words: you cannot see the new VISA-exchange rates for the current day before 12:am (high noon), but they are already applied since 12pm (=beginning of the new day here in Thailand).

When the summertime ends (I guess there is one in the US?) the time difference between Thailand and NY is then 11 hours, so that you can se the new VISA-rates already at 11 am.

I didn’t read about this details anywhere, I used my experience and my brain. So, please correct me, if you find any mistake or error.

Next I would like to write about the weekend rates and how it works.

(Please excuse my poor English. I learnt it only at high school and later on by reading English language newspapers. But I hope you can understand what I write)

[puck2]

Examples for #73

Yesterday, Friday - March 16, 2012, the VISA-rates have been:

USD - 0,032562 = 1 USD -> 30,71064 THB

GBP - 0,020830 = 1 GBP -> 48,00768 THB

EUR - 0,025003 = 1 EUR -> 39,99520 THB

You could see the rates on the VISA website at 12:00 am, but I‘m not sure if they changed already at 11:00 am (today, on Saturday, VSA changed them at 11:00 pm).

But the above exchange rates have been applied starting with the new day (Friday) here in Thailand.

[pete66]

Going to Lotus Kham Tiang today. Just because I'll be really short of time, can someone tell where where the Aeon ATM is? From reading the thread, sounds like just head for the longest queue at Lotus

Is it upstairs or downstairs? thx in advance .....

[puck2]

VISA Weekend rates

Remember:

Every day — except weekends …..— Visa calculates the rate for the next day's transactions.

== >

Tuesday rates on Monday

Wednesday rates on Tuesday

Thursday rates on Wednesday

Friday rates on Thursday

Saturday - Monday rates on Friday

This means, if you go with your Visa--DEBIT-card

today on Saturday or

tomorrow on Sunday or

the day after tomorrow on Monday (until midnight)

to an ATM here in Thailand and take of some THB you will get exactly the VISA exchange rates as follows

USD - 0,032615 = 1 USD -> 30,660739 THB

GBP - 0,020700 = 1 GBP -> 48,309179 THB

EUR - 0,024895 = 1 EUR -> 40,168709 THB

(fees are excluded !!!)

……………………………….........

This kind of exchange rate settings (prior to …) can be very useful and may save you some USD, GBP or €.

One example:

July 3 (Sunday) 2011 has been the election day. On Monday, July 4, after the results have been publicised, the Thai Baht became stronger against the USD, GBP and €. You could detect it by the T/T rates.

But VISA had the rates fixed on Friday for the transaction days Saturday until Monday. Therefore you could guess the rates - already fixed for Monday - would go down for Tuesday = you should get less Baht, if you exchanged on Tuesday.

Result: VISA change on Monday would give you a better rate. That matched for all 3 mentioned currencies. I demonstrate it by the $:

rate July 2 - July 4, 2011 - 0.032594 = 30,680493 for each $

rate July 5 - 0,032887 = 30,407152 for each $

On an AEON ATM with 40.000 THB per withdrawal you saved then

Day rate THB UD $

04.07.2011 30.680493 40.000 1.303,76

05.07.2011 30,407152 40.000 1.312,48

Diff. 12,72 $

Vice versa is also true. If the today rates for the TBH go down against your currency, wait for the next new exchange day. On a weekend this would be the Tuesday.

(I'm sorry, my clearly arranged format is not accepted here)

[pete66]

So in summary, I should wait till Monday?

(or is this all Forex guess work like playing the stock market)

Sorry, too tired to think properly ...... where do I look all these rates up?

[puck2]

Sorry for the late answer (today Internet didn't work just to 5 min. before, maybe because of the smoke?)

An identical VISA-exchange rate is applied from Saturday in the morning just to Monday at midnight Thai time, if you use a VISA-Debit-card for the ATM withdrawal.

The rates have been fixed by VISA prior to Saturday.

You can find the Visa exchange rates on corporate.visa.com (<- google) consumer_services.

USD - 0,032615 = 1 USD -> 30,660739 THB

GBP - 0,020700 = 1 GBP -> 48,309179 THB

EUR - 0,024895 = 1 EUR -> 40,168709 THB

(fees are excluded !!!)

[JimGant]

BTW, the counter withdrawal info you posted above re the 100,000 from BKK Bank produced a perfectly good exchange rate of 30.42.

Exactly as the Visa FX site stipulated (puck has explained how the weekend rates, by Visa, are projected over 3 days). And, if the card had been used at the bank's ATM machine -- the exact same 30.42 would have been realized (before considering the 150 baht ATM fee). Not much to consider here -- you swipe the card on the counter's swipe machine -- or you swipe it at the outside ATM machine -- you get the same advertised Visa rate for that day. It's up to the bank manager to decide if he wants to forego 150 baht in income at the ATM machine, to ingratiate you, a customer of future worth.....

Now, the only potential difference is, the bank clerk possibly could punch the "DCC" button (just like a merchant can), taking you off the Visa exchange rate track, and onto the expensive DCC track. SCB apparently has something like this -- but possibly 'hardwired' and not even giving the clerk the option to give the more favorable Visa (or MC) rate.

But what the bank certainly doesn't have is a machine encoded similar to a POS machine at a store, where the merchant is paying 1-3% interchange fee to Visa on the sales price, obviously hoping to recoupe, with interest, on the profit. Since a bank is not in such a profit mode, the only way the counter swipe machine can be programmed is in the ATM mode, whereby the bank gets a reverse interchange fee of 25-40 cents per transaction, same as if it took place at the ATM machine (and why such a paltry "earning" got supplemented by 150 baht).

The counter withdrawal rates are typically done using that particular local bank's buying TT rate, which may and probably does have some relationship with the card network rates, but usually are less than the card network rates.

No. The bank either is using the network (Visa/MC) exchange rate, or a DCC exchange rate. Either/Or. Period.

And if it opts not to use the network rate, to make this option worthwhile, its DCC rate must be considerably more attractive (to the bank) than the TT rate (which is, on average, only a few satang less favorable than the daily Visa advertised rate -- or a few satang more favorable than the MC advertised rate). So, the buying TT rate would not be the chosen rate for DCC transactions.

[hml367]

If anyone is interested in the answer I received from Visa Corporate US about exchange rates from an ATM versus signature required, send me a PM. I reserve the right to not answer any PM from people that I feel are only looking for an argument.

MSPain

Edited March 27, 2012 by hml367

[hml367]

This is from the Visa International Operating Regulations:

*****

"Issuer Disclosure of Exchange Rate - U.S. Region

A U.S. Issuer must disclose to each of its Cardholders in writing that the exchange rate between

the Transaction Currency and the Billing Currency used for processing International Transactions is

either:

• A rate selected by Visa from the range of rates available in wholesale currency markets for the

applicable Central Processing Date, which rate may vary from the rate Visa itself receives

• The government-mandated rate in effect for the applicable Central Processing Date

in each instance, plus or minus any adjustment determined by the Issuer."

*******

A cardholder should check with their card issuing institution for the disclosures for the particular card they are using. I think I said that before.

MSPain

[65Craig]

I went to Aeon Bank on 3/31/12 and withdrew 25,000 baht with my Citibank Gold card (US). I followed up today to confirm I didn't get charged a fee. Happily I was not charged a fee and calculated my exchange rate of 30.5975 per US Dollar. Looks like I found my new Bank. Since I've been gone for awhile, thanks for those who let it be known about Aeon Bank not charging a fee:-) The only downside I see, Aeon Bank doesn't show the exchange rate or the balance left in your account on the receipt, so you do have to follow up with your bank.