Do I Have An Electrical Grounding Problem In My House?

[gdhm]

Hi Crossy and other electricians or experts,

My PC is powered via a Toshino Surge protector PLUS GROUNDING and Wiring continuous tester. It works with 2 LED indicators (1 is Green and 1 is Red).

If ONLY the Green one is Lit then Ground connection exists and is GOOD Correct Grounded wiring.

If BOTH Green and Red LEDs are lit then there is NO Ground connection.

(I seem to recall if Live an neutral are reversed then the Red LED comes on alone suggesting Ground exists but there is still an issue - THIS was when I found out Thailand has L and N reversed (when compared to UK).

Today I noticed whilst relocating the Toshino Unit that whilst the Green LED is brightly lit as usual that suspiciously the Red LED is DIMLY lit as well (it should be not lit at all). I immediately plugged the Toshino extension unit into a house power socket via a 3 pin to 2 pin (Live and neutral only) adaptor to check things out. This time as expected, with NO Ground connection at all, BOTH the Green and Red LEDs were BRIGHTLY Lit (The Red now being MUCH brighter than when the Toshino was plugged into a Grounded socket). I tried the unit in several power sockets around the house. All showed exact same results.

Basic Facts about Ground wiring in my house.

Large house built 3 years ago. Electricity Authority told me I should use 30A (I think) wires from my street meter instead of the normal 15A (was it) which I did.

90% of lighting and power sockets and fixed appliances are grounded using a single Copper (or Steel copper coated) 3 metre rod 20 cms from house. The clamp and rod top end where the wire is attached was driven 5 cms below our lawn's top soil. Having just exposed it to take a look I note it looks very dirty and maybe somewhat corroded but I have no idea what clamp liked like new nor whether contact is still good or not. I did notice the rod end moves a little when I tried shifting it which I did not expect as 2 metres down into the soil.

The Ground wire is 4mm or 6mm (not sure which) and not sure where electrician connected it into the wiring circuit. I know he did not ground the outside (of house) lights and I had to chase him to ground some of the interior lights. I cannot tell if he did them all or just some. Certainly all of the many power sockets, 4 aircons and 3 Shower Heaters and 2 water heaters (one used in kitchen and on for bathroom with bath WERE ALL GROUNDED.

I know the power sockets were all grounded as I tested ALL power sockets when house first completed. Not being an expert I used my Toshino PC surge protected Ground continuity Testing 4 socket extension unit.

My questions.

1) Do you believe I am correct in MY interpretation of the Brightly lit Green LED together with Dimly lit Red LED, that the Ground connection is not 100% (but pretty good and close to that). Likely Reason being;

a) due to the one Rod being insufficient length or partly corroded at ground wire clamped top end or

could it imply a small/tiny current leakage to Ground in my houses wiring system .

c) do you believe something else is being indicated by the dim Red LED. If so what could be the problem being indicated

I did a VERY Basic touch test . Namely, I dampened my bitten finger nails exposed sensitive skin area and touched my PC's metal case and its USB male metal plug end and I felt ZERO shock or tingling. When I first came to Thailand and my wife's PC was in a house with no grounding I got nasty shocks off case and USB plugs and some electrical equipment. I also got shocks at this house when I purchased a PC style black style Power lead and found that although 3 pins that the Ground was not connected (dangerous to humans and equipment IMHO as no one would know without testing as lead ends are sealed).

None of this is happening at all at present in my house.

2) Is my one Grounding ROD sufficient for a large House?

If not how many should I have, how long and should they be close to each other and daisy chained (if so how far apart and daisy chained or Ground wire connected to each of the Rods) or situated far away (if so where)

3) Should the wire clamped end of the Ground Rod be above Soil level? If so how far above would be recommended.

4) DO you feel the dim Red LED (as well as the Bright Green LED) implies a problem with the connection to Rod or Rod inadequacy OR could it imply a faulty appliance or, that part of the house wiring circuitry has a problem (such as Live slightly touching a Ground Wire somewhere).

5) If you feel an appliance could cause the DIM Red LED then I can test that by unplugging all appliances (excluding electrical fixtures) to see if the Red LED goes out completely? I assume YES of course!.

6) If not 5) and you feel the problem could be part of the wiring itself then could, one by one switch off fuses in my double fuse box units in an attempt to isolate the problematic part of the circuitry. Or is that a stupid (non-electrician or expert) question and switching off circuit fuses one by one would not reveal

7) I have a cheapish Digital Multi-meter than can test DC and AC volt levels, and ohms and continuity, and test something marked A with a dotted line below a solid line to right of the A (is that AMP tester?). Anyway is it possible for me to use a multi-meter to test my Grounding for efficiency and adequacy and if so what do I do and what do I look out for in the readings.

I am of course seeking 100% grounding protection in all areas that have grounding (and certainly protection for very sensitive equipment like PCs).

May I ask two further questions not directly connected to above please.

8) I know Thailand (compared with UK) has its Live and Neutral wiring reversed in sockets and plugs.

Some power lead extension units and PC equipment, UPS to PC power leads seem to be wired for Thailand and some UK and some PC leads seem Thai one end reversing to UK the other (or I am now totally confused by it all trying to work out all the combinations . How important is it for Neutral and Live to be correct and not switched ..... COZ to be honest trying to work out which lead PC equipment extension units is wired UK or Thai system or a combination s a nightmare to say the least as some are made in Thailand and assumes Thai system but other items assume UK system.

Oh yes, just thought of one final question. Is it OK to plug a surge/ browning protected PC UPS into a Surge protected Toshino extension multi Socket unit or is does this "doubling up" on surge protection adversely interfere with UPS's or correct functioning of both. (I'm trying to avoid multiple long trailing leads)

Many thanks everybody

Kind Regards

Dave

Edited March 3, 2012 by gdhm

[Crossy]

Probably

A few ideas to confirm:-

Does your Toshino lead operate correctly in someone else's home with a good ground?

Using your non-earth adaptor run a lead from its earth tab to a temporary ground stake, a big screwdriver in wet earth will do the trick, check the lights. If it works correctly suspect a poor ground.

Using your meter with the mains off, do continuity checks from an outlet ground to the earth stake, should be a few Ohms.

That buried ground stake connection is a prime candidate, they should never be buried in earth. If you give it a little earth pit (PVC pipe) after taking it apart and cleaning up then painting with acrylic paint it should last for years.

Cascading surge protection is not an issue.

Modern equipment is polarity insensitive so it being backwards is no real issue. That said it is important that your outlets are consistently wired.

[Kwasaki]

My surge protector story !! Our house has an earth via ground rod.

My PC had a plug with no earth pin, so changed that along with other hardware that should be earthed.

The house wall socket used has earth connection.

I bought a 4 socket surge protector with a earth pin plug, connected to the PC both red and green lights were on.

Opened up the surge protector and found it was not wired correctly, fixed that, everything OK.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Kwasaki

[Litlos]

Something to try in additon to suggestions from Crossy. Is the soil around the earth rod dry? If so dig a bit of a hole around it and fill with tap water. This was the problem at a friends house. Monitor the result on the Toshino. If it appears to correct the problem then you just need to ensure the stake gets watered occaisionally and the soil tamped down a bit to ensure a good connection to earth or get a new stake installed in a location that stays damp.

The PC case being live or not can be depenant on which way the live/neutral are wired. Sometimes simply reversing (correcting?) the connections can clear the tingle.

Cheers

[thaibeachlovers]

While not an expert on such matters, I had an extensive discussion about earthing, last year on this forum.

I finally used a suggestion from someone to check if ground is OK.

I bought one of those insulated light sockets with 2 wires attached. I then wired it to a 3 pin plug so that L went to the bulb, and the other wire went to earth. If you plug it in, and the earth is OK the bulb will light brightly. If not OK it will not light, or light dimly.

Obviously, observe safety, and don't let anyone touch the earth rod while using it.

Before using, you need to ascertain if the L hole on the plug socket is in fact live. If not, wire the live wire to N in the plug. One of those neon testers can be used to check for the live wire.

Edited March 4, 2012 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

My surge protector story !! Our house has an earth via ground rod.

My PC had a plug with no earth pin, so changed that along with other hardware that should be earthed.

The house wall socket used has earth connection.

I bought a 4 socket surge protector with a earth pin plug, connected to the PC both red and green lights were on.

Opened up the surge protector and found it was not wired correctly, fixed that, everything OK.

Ain't that Thailand for you. We expect the house wiring to be the wrong way around, but it's a bit grim when we have to rewire the surge protectors!

It's always a treat opening up one of those muli plug extension boxes- never know what will be inside. I bought one with a 3 pin plug, but there were no earth connections inside!

[thaibeachlovers]

Something to try in additon to suggestions from Crossy. Is the soil around the earth rod dry? If so dig a bit of a hole around it and fill with tap water. This was the problem at a friends house. Monitor the result on the Toshino. If it appears to correct the problem then you just need to ensure the stake gets watered occaisionally and the soil tamped down a bit to ensure a good connection to earth or get a new stake installed in a location that stays damp.

The PC case being live or not can be depenant on which way the live/neutral are wired. Sometimes simply reversing (correcting?) the connections can clear the tingle.

Cheers

Thanks for pointing that out. We've had a drought for months, so I need to get the hose out and wet the earth around my earth pins.

[gdhm]

Probably

A few ideas to confirm:-

Does your Toshino lead operate correctly in someone else's home with a good ground?

Yes I accidentally broke a solder link to the Red LED whilst checking out the Toshino unit. I took it to Amcorm soldered it back free of charge and on their grounded test socket it didn't light up (even dimly). I also bought another 5 socket Toshino unit (needed another for my son's PC. That too in my house very dimly lights up (not quite so much as the 4 year old unit.

Using your non-earth adaptor run a lead from its earth tab to a temporary ground stake, a big screwdriver in wet earth will do the trick, check the lights. If it works correctly suspect a poor ground.

As it is dark (9pm) as I read your post I will try this tomorrow and report back. If it does NOT work what do you suspect could be the problem Crossy

Using your meter with the mains off, do continuity checks from an outlet ground to the earth stake, should be a few Ohms.

I will do tomorrow. What exactly are you saying I should do. Is it Run a wire form the ground terminal of a "close by" Power socket (having checked the Toshino Red LED is dimly lit when plugged into that power socket) and then touch the other end of the wire to my multimeter probe and the other multimeter probe touching the rod.

What causes the Ohms reading Crossy.

I known when I use my multimeter Ohms section to test a cable each end is not broken or similar I always get a reading for a second if not broken BUT it goes to Zero every time in a second or so. It that what you mean or do you expect an Ohms reading that lasts. If so what makes it last. My ohms settings are 200 2000 20k 20M and 200M which should I use and what approx. reading would I expect if OK.

One piece of Info. Last night I identified the fuse (out of around 26) in our central fuse boxes to our kitchen power sockets. I plugged in the Toshino and it showed Bright Green and dim Red as expected. I then though all the other 26 fuses in the house and checked the Toshino. No difference still Bright Green and Dim Red LED. Not sure Crossy if this confirms or disproves anything or not. Your comment would be useful as I am doing my best to eliminate possibilities. I am guessing (as a non expert) it suggests (unless in kitchen that no faulty equipment is to blame, and If my guess is correct it suggests wiring in house not to blame with most circuits off. I also assume it suggests that any current trying to go to the Rod would be lessened (IF current was leaking).

That buried ground stake connection is a prime candidate, they should never be buried in earth. If you give it a little earth pit (PVC pipe) after taking it apart and cleaning up then painting with acrylic paint it should last for years.

May I ask ask what symptoms I would expect from a corroded wire/clamp/rod connection Crossy. How would it manifest itself as it deteriorates.

At this point (although I feel this is a "Red Herring" I should mention that about 1½ years ago I was drilling into a wall and blew a fuse. Really happy the builder had that wire running diagonally in the wall (I know he did not do this in general but I think was tempted due to close proximity of the next in line connection).

ANYWAY when I removed the drill I threw on the fuse expecting it to trip again BUT IT DID NOT that had tripped and it powered on without any problem. I suspect I must have just grazed the live wire with the dill bit. I did to wet finger nails test on the wall and felt NO tingling whatsoever.

Stupidly or not I decided to push a little insulating tape into the drill hole to hopefully seal the grazed wire and carefully filled it with filler and painted over.

I at that time checked the Toshino (in the two closest power sockets in case there was leakage but Green was brightly on and Red LED OFF as it was in its normal location

I assumed all was OK and it was overkill to dig out my lounge wall and fix the grazed wire. We have not had ANY suspicious electrical event of fuse tripping since (in fact ever before or after that).

Cascading surge protection is not an issue.

That's Good

Modern equipment is polarity insensitive so it being backwards is no real issue. That said it is important that your outlets are consistently wired.

They are consistently wired the Thai way. Electrician got a few reversed but I corrected as soon as we moved in 3½ years ago.

For my education earning reasons may I ask why it is important outlets are consistent for safety reasons (namely live is where an electrician or DIY'er would expect it and expect consistency. I appreciate good electricians never assume anything. I ask because you say modern equipment is polarity insensitive.

----

Crossy you did not comment on whether you felt a single 2 metre Ground Rod should be adequate.

If I scraped clean part of the Rod and somehow ran a lead to that and the Ground wire (which is sealed in the wall and not in conduit as electrician originally let it round down the outside wall and I told him that was asking for trouble as easy to damage. His solution was to dig out a small channel in the Qcon wall and seal it in just under the surface.

For me to run test wire to to a cleaned area of the rod would need me to cut it under ground level. IF I DO DO THIS Crossy what method if reconnecting the wire would be safe.

I can certainly push a plastic pipe down around the rod top to keep soil off it BUT I suspect in the Monsoon rains it may fill with water. We have a hight water table being only 0.5km from Khon Kaen Lake and level of land is not much higher

OR would you suggest I just buy a new Rod and drive it in close to the other making sure it is 10 to 20 cms above soil level. and connect the wire to it.

To answer other suggestions

Before I posted yesterday I did expose the Rod and ran a hose for 15 mins to soak the area and rod. if fact the water did not soak down very quickly. Certainly there was no immeadiate change in the brightness of the Dim Red LED.

I checked the Toshino few hours later and no change. HOWEVER this evening 24 hours later I note the Red LED is now VERY DIM (certainly dimmer than yesterday). I also noted on the Older Toshino unit that the very Dim LED is flickering constantly milliseconds (pulsing maybe between Very dim and even dimmer almost not visible. I was viewing in a pitch black room so this gives an indication how dim the Red Led is today (although I can just see it in a lit room with careful close inspection. The New Toshino's Red LED is almost impossible to detect it is very dimly lit (even in pitch black room.

If I use a 2 pin socket adapter the Red LED shines VERY brightly on both units (juts checked as I type.

Surely the large difference suggests the Ground Rod is doing its job mostly. What I do not understand as layman it what would cause a dim red LED when only one fuse box fuse was ON. Surely it should have gone out completely as virtually no current to the Ground Rod. ( I say this due to the larger difference on ht Red LED between using a a 2 pin adapter and a 3 pin grounded plug into grounded power socket.

Truly sorry for so many questions Guys.

I have found members of this section of TV to be especially helpful and knowledgeable and I have and am still learning an awful lot of useful stuff and I trust most of the advice given here (which is vital bearing in mind some of the local "so called experts" varied advice I have received over the last 6 years here.

Kind regards to all

Dave

[gdhm]

Something to try in addition to suggestions from Crossy. Is the soil around the earth rod dry? If so dig a bit of a hole around it and fill with tap water. This was the problem at a friends house. Monitor the result on the Toshino. If it appears to correct the problem then you just need to ensure the stake gets watered occasionally and the soil tamped down a bit to ensure a good connection to earth or get a new stake installed in a location that stays damp.

As mentioned in reply to Crossy I watered the area Yesterday and it may have had a slight effect TODAY red light even dimmer (but still on JUST)

The PC case being live or not can be dependant on which way the live/neutral are wired. Sometimes simply reversing (correcting?) the connections can clear the tingle.

Certainly adding a Ground wire to the PC socket in my wife's families home and also one to the rental I lived at a year after stopped all shocks and tingling.

JUST noticed 2 hours after I started my post to Crossy that the Very dim almost off Red LED is now back to Dim (similar to Yesterday still flickering between that and dimmer.

No idea why flickering or slightly variable maybe power of units and aircons on are a factor?

I can still confirm 2 pin adapter stills shows a VERY BRIGHT Red LED 3 or 4 times brighter than dim when Toshino plugged into a Grounded Power socket.

Probably the degree of DIM red LED is minor changes and the real relevance is

1) The Red LED never goes out completely when grounded

and 2

2) The difference in brightness of the Red LED between a grounded connection and an ungrounded is considerable

Cheers

Regards

Dave

Edited March 4, 2012 by gdhm

[gdhm]

My surge protector story !! Our house has an earth via ground rod.

My PC had a plug with no earth pin, so changed that along with other hardware that should be earthed.

The house wall socket used has earth connection.

I bought a 4 socket surge protector with a earth pin plug, connected to the PC both red and green lights were on.

Opened up the surge protector and found it was not wired correctly, fixed that, everything OK.

Ain't that Thailand for you. We expect the house wiring to be the wrong way around, but it's a bit grim when we have to rewire the surge protectors!

It's always a treat opening up one of those muli plug extension boxes- never know what will be inside. I bought one with a 3 pin plug, but there were no earth connections inside!

Last week I found 2 way powered (solar and battery) Casio pocket calculator which I had forgotten about .

Curious why the Solar cell did not supply power if the battery had run down I opened it up to take a look.

The solar cell looked in perfect condition Shame there were no wires leading to/from it

Good scam that one.

I respect and like Casio (love their watches) so I am wondering if it was a fake Casio (to be honest it looked the genuine article). Nobody would suspect anything was out of order until the battery ran out, maybe a year or so later and way beyond any warranty period.

Dave

[gdhm]

While not an expert on such matters, I had an extensive discussion about earthing, last year on this forum.

I finally used a suggestion from someone to check if ground is OK.

I bought one of those insulated light sockets with 2 wires attached. I then wired it to a 3 pin plug so that L went to the bulb, and the other wire went to earth. If you plug it in, and the earth is OK the bulb will light brightly. If not OK it will not light, or light dimly.

Obviously, observe safety, and don't let anyone touch the earth rod while using it.

Before using, you need to ascertain if the L hole on the plug socket is in fact live. If not, wire the live wire to N in the plug. One of those neon testers can be used to check for the live wire.

I can do that but is this not what my Toshino is doing (sort of)

Bright Red LED if NO Ground

No Red LED if 100% correctly grounded

And in my case I am getting a Dim Red LED.

What I am unable to interpret is what is the cause is,

How good (or bad) the Ground currently is (I suspect still very good but not 100%)

Although my Toshino is continuously testing my Grounding and tells me what is and what is not OK I do not actually know what it is actually, testing is it a certain level of continuity, or current leakage or what? I have no idea how its tests.

I do know (checked tonight that if there is a ground and live and neutral is reversed then ONLY the RED LED shines brightly and the Green is completely OFF.

If there is NO Ground at all then Green and Red LEDs are both on and the Toshino does not care which way round Live and Neutral is.

Once again this seems to confirm that my Ground Rod Grounding IS mostly functioning because if not at all then reversing live and neutral would show either Bright Red AND Bright Green or Just Bright Red when wrong way around.

Cheers, Dave

[electau]

First check the main earth from the earth bar in the switchboard to the earth electrode, this should be not more than 0.5ohms. The earth connection should be visible for testing and inspection.

Check the earth contiuity from the earth bar to all points of the electrical installation.

If you have more than one electrode, bond them together (equipotential bonding).

Make sure that all power boards are earthed, ie have a 3 core lead, you could be receiving mild shocks from standing leakage current.

Carry out a polarity test of all your socket outlets, L to N, L to E. N to E. You should have a light on the first two only.

　

　

　

Edited March 4, 2012 by electau

[Litlos]

_{OK so it seems that watering/fiddling with the earth electrode is having some effect. You may find even later all has been temporarily resolved.}

_{To give an anology to a water system for electrics may help the understanding. Volts = Pressure, Amps = Flow, Ohms = Resistance. So if we look at your garden hose the flow of water out the end is controlled by the length/diameter of the hose (inbuilt resistance equivalent to size of wire) x the water pressure (volts) and controlled by the supply valve ( variable resistance). So for an earthing system you are looking for minmum resistance(ohms) to earth to maximise the potential flow (amps). I normally explain this on a whiteboard with suitable sketches, is my basic understanding of electricity for non electrical trades 101 course.}

_{So with an earth system you are trying to ensure that the wiring system in the house has minimum resistance to the mass of the earth. This is achieved by the size of the earth wire, the connections within the wiring of the earth wire system (bad joints due to poorly twisted connections) the connection of the wire to the earth rod via the clamp and the quality of the connection between the earth rod and the mass of earth.}

_{It sounds like by putting a bit of moisture in the area of the earth rod things have improved a bit, though it may have been the fiddling with the wire. OK all good as you now have a pretty good idea the area where the problem is in. So following the guide from Crossy redo the connection to the earth rod and install a box etc. NOTE: THE MAINS POWER TO BE OFF FOR THIS BIT. Sorry for the over emphasis on this, but the penalty for getting it wrong can be very permanent. Then give a bit more water to the area of the earth rod. What you are trying to do is ensure the length of the rod is in damp soil to ensure a good connection to the mass of earth. As a side note on this it is not that useful to install another earth rod in the same circumstances. So if installing another earth rod, best to ensure is somewhere that is kept damp.}

_{Something to ba aware of with using a meter on ohms is that any stray voltages in the system will possibly cause a false reading. Is better if doing readings using the ohms function then turn the mains off. Also check your meter zero by shorting the leads before using, should show zero or very close to it.}

_Cheers

_{Edit for typo's}

Edited March 5, 2012 by Litlos

[gdhm]

No need for apologies Litlos reiterating safety advice. One can never be too cautious when messing with electricity.

Thanks for time time and detailed info.

I have now just done one of Crossy's tests

namely "Using your non-earth adaptor run a lead from its earth tab to a temporary ground stake, a big screwdriver in wet earth will do the trick, check the lights. If it works correctly suspect a poor ground".

No difference the red LED is still on be it VERY Dim and if I remove the Ground wire from the screwdriver the Red LED goes from dim to very bright.

WIth my New Toshino unit the Red LED is so dim that I have to have my eye very near it and room lighting dark or my hand shielding room light out to see it is one. The older Toshino it is no quite so dim but still 2-3 times dimmer than unit plugged into a 2 pin adapter..

I am certain I have Grounding in all power sockets and I feel certain it is pretty good. What I just do not yet understand is, why the Red LED is on be it VERY DIMLY, and I do not understand what that dim lit LED it is actually indicating is or could be wrong.

Is it tiny current leakage has not gone fully to rod in soil? IF SO, then I do not understand why my test of "all electricity in house" OFF at fuse boxes EXCEPT power sockets in Kitchen did cause the Red Led to go completely go off (instead of no change) after all how much current leakage could be in that one tiny kitchen (many sockets unused circuit).

I think the electrician may have put some lighting in same circuits as some power sockets. I have electronic charge units on 12 ring lights. Could any of that be relevant.

You can tell I am clutching at straws trying to understand problem I have, If of course the dim Red LED is not a false positive, BUT I feel that is not the case it is not, as it was fully out at Amcorns' work bench grounded power socket

Regards

Dave

Does not make sense to me, but that probably just proves I ain't no electrician or electrical expert .

[Crossy]

Without proper test kit and the knowledge to use it I don't think there's a lot more can be done.

You DO appear to have an at least adequate ground, the very dim glow of the LED is likely nothing to worry about, probably a small voltage between E and N which is quite normal.

As a final test since you have a big screwdriver and a long lead. With the power ON (care please), measure AC Volts between the screwdriver (in the ground) and each pin of an outlet. Post the results here.

[gdhm]

Without proper test kit and the knowledge to use it I don't think there's a lot more can be done.

You DO appear to have an at least adequate ground, the very dim glow of the LED is likely nothing to worry about, probably a small voltage between E and N which is quite normal.

As a final test since you have a big screwdriver and a long lead. With the power ON (care please), measure AC Volts between the screwdriver (in the ground) and each pin of an outlet. Post the results here.

Hi Crossy. Before I do this am I not risking ectrocution by standing on damp soil that the Screwdriver is in, when I run Live to it.?

I have tested a normal Power socket for Volts

1) Live and Ground = 228V-230V moves between readings which I know is normal

2) Neutral to Ground 7-8 Volts

I will await your further advice before doing the screwdriver test

Thanks for you continued help and advice Crossy

Kind regards Dave

Edited March 5, 2012 by gdhm

[bankruatsteve]

Without proper test kit and the knowledge to use it I don't think there's a lot more can be done.

You DO appear to have an at least adequate ground, the very dim glow of the LED is likely nothing to worry about, probably a small voltage between E and N which is quite normal.

As a final test since you have a big screwdriver and a long lead. With the power ON (care please), measure AC Volts between the screwdriver (in the ground) and each pin of an outlet. Post the results here.

Hi Crossy. Before I do this am I not risking ectrocution by standing on damp soil that the Screwdriver is in, when I run Live to it.?

I have tested a normal Power socket for Volts

1) Live and Ground = 228V-230V moves between readings which I know is normal

2) Neutral to Ground 7-8 Volts

I will await your further advice before doing the screwdriver test

Thanks for you continued help and advice Crossy

Kind regards Dave

1. you are not running live to the screwdriver - just measuring potential difference

2. you shouldn't be standing near the screwdriver when measuring anyway... you have a long lead attached to it yah?

3. the only thing touching the plug terminals and the lead to the screwdriver is the meter probes. Don't insert the wire from the screwdriver into anything!

[gdhm]

Without proper test kit and the knowledge to use it I don't think there's a lot more can be done.

You DO appear to have an at least adequate ground, the very dim glow of the LED is likely nothing to worry about, probably a small voltage between E and N which is quite normal.

As a final test since you have a big screwdriver and a long lead. With the power ON (care please), measure AC Volts between the screwdriver (in the ground) and each pin of an outlet. Post the results here.

Hi Crossy. Before I do this am I not risking ectrocution by standing on damp soil that the Screwdriver is in, when I run Live to it.?

I have tested a normal Power socket for Volts

1) Live and Ground = 228V-230V moves between readings which I know is normal

2) Neutral to Ground 7-8 Volts

I will await your further advice before doing the screwdriver test

Thanks for you continued help and advice Crossy

Kind regards Dave

1. you are not running live to the screwdriver - just measuring potential difference

2. you shouldn't be standing near the screwdriver when measuring anyway... you have a long lead attached to it yah?

3. the only thing touching the plug terminals and the lead to the screwdriver is the meter probes. Don't insert the wire from the screwdriver into anything!

Partial Quote ".. you have a long lead attached to it yah?"

Actually No.

When I did Crossy's test I had nothing to easily clamp a wire to the screwdriver. nor a long cable with exposed wire ends so I inserted my extension cabled Toshino unit into a 2 pin adapter which I plugged into the nearest socket to the screwdriver. I then used one of my voltmeter probes one end pushed into one of the Toshino unit's Ground pin sockets and the other touching the screwdriver.

I will have to think of a method where I can be away from the screwdriver area and find and splice a long insulated wire to it

[Crossy]

A Neutral-Ground voltage of 7-8V suggests you have a TT earthing system, it's almost certain that it is this voltage causing the LED to glow. Nothing to worry about.

Do you have an RCD or Safe-T-Cut?

[Litlos]

Sounds a bit like the 7 volts on the neutral is causing the LED to show something. I tried to find a circuit diagram for the Toshino board, but no joy. I did find a photo with the cover off and there is a MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor) inside by the looks for surge protection. These things degrade as they get older and leak a bit of current which may well explain the difference between the new and the old. Also remember the testing by inserting into a non earthed socket is the extreme case ,a little bit of a glow indicates a little bit of a problem with the earth or possibly the neutral.

Matter of interest is the PEA transformer near by? Go and have a look at the condition of the earth stake. If yours is dry, I bet that one is as well. May be take some liquid up there to wet that down as well. The locals will think you are crazy, but all in the name of science. A couple of litres should do it. The effect should be that the voltage on the neutral goes down near zero. Remember it is not just you on the system. Everyone on the downstream of the transformer is sharing the system.

However all being equal it is as Crossy said, really a small problem. The main thing is as long as your earth leakage protection is working when tested you are pretty safe. Clean up the connection to the earth rod as mentioned before and put a plant that needs watering close by to ensure the ground near the earth rod stays damp. Should be fine.

Cheers

Edited March 5, 2012 by Litlos

[thaibeachlovers]

While not an expert on such matters, I had an extensive discussion about earthing, last year on this forum.

I finally used a suggestion from someone to check if ground is OK.

I bought one of those insulated light sockets with 2 wires attached. I then wired it to a 3 pin plug so that L went to the bulb, and the other wire went to earth. If you plug it in, and the earth is OK the bulb will light brightly. If not OK it will not light, or light dimly.

Obviously, observe safety, and don't let anyone touch the earth rod while using it.

Before using, you need to ascertain if the L hole on the plug socket is in fact live. If not, wire the live wire to N in the plug. One of those neon testers can be used to check for the live wire.

I can do that but is this not what my Toshino is doing (sort of)

Bright Red LED if NO Ground

No Red LED if 100% correctly grounded

And in my case I am getting a Dim Red LED.

What I am unable to interpret is what is the cause is,

How good (or bad) the Ground currently is (I suspect still very good but not 100%)

Although my Toshino is continuously testing my Grounding and tells me what is and what is not OK I do not actually know what it is actually, testing is it a certain level of continuity, or current leakage or what? I have no idea how its tests.

I do know (checked tonight that if there is a ground and live and neutral is reversed then ONLY the RED LED shines brightly and the Green is completely OFF.

If there is NO Ground at all then Green and Red LEDs are both on and the Toshino does not care which way round Live and Neutral is.

Once again this seems to confirm that my Ground Rod Grounding IS mostly functioning because if not at all then reversing live and neutral would show either Bright Red AND Bright Green or Just Bright Red when wrong way around.

Cheers, Dave

I know that my light bulb tester won't sort your problem, but it will tell you if your earth is OK.

[gdhm]

I know that my light bulb tester won't sort your problem, but it will tell you if your earth is OK.

Forgive my ignorance thaibeachlovers but isn't my Toshino unit essentially running the same test.

Namely;

1) My Toshino with NO Ground shows a Very Bright Red LED = (in your test) I assume Bulb OFF completely

2) My Toshino 100% good Ground shows Red LED OFF = (in your test) I assume Bulb ON brightly

and my situation

Pretty good Ground= Toshino shows Dim Red LED (maybe the 7-8 volts Neutral to Ground my multimeter found which Crossy considered nothing to worry about. = (in your test) I assume maybe a very dimly light bulb

or am I misunderstanding something thaibeachlovers

Regard, Dave

[gdhm]

A Neutral-Ground voltage of 7-8V suggests you have a TT earthing system, it's almost certain that it is this voltage causing the LED to glow. Nothing to worry about.

Do you have an RCD or Safe-T-Cut?

Had to look up TT (but worth it as I learn). Yes my House's Grounding is completely based on that one 4 or 6mm wire connected to the 2 metre Rod.

No I do not have any House RCD or Safe-T-Cut (obviously the showers and water heaters each have their own cut-outs as well as ground to Soil wiring). Resources were very low after my builder overspent on the House and following repairs I needed for poor work that I did not follow that up and forgot about it as a priority as I never experienced any electrical problems AND I relied on my Toshino (genuinely counted as part of my houses electrical safety protection) warning me if Ground ever failed or deteriorated (as I see it daily when using my PC. The ONLY reason I did not notice the dimly lit Red LED before is that the socket is at a45 Degree angle and 20inches from where to where I sit. The Green LED could be clearly seen but the Red being so dim could only be seen viewed straight on as its low glow in invisible otherwise.

Yesterday I moved the Toshino to a more out in the open and directly visible position (only 12 inches from where I sit). ANY future changes/deterioration in the LEDs form current levels will be immediately seen by me.

----

Is an RCD or Safe -T-Cut the same thing. If not, which provides better protection all round? IF same protection which is easiest to install in a already running system and would I expect a one to be cheaper?

What power handling ability safe-T -Cut or RCD would be advisable? Would I get an electrician to situate in in between supply to house and just before my Fuse Box meters I trust it can cope with two thick power wires out to each Fuse box.

How important is it I get an RCD or Safe-T-Cut Crossy. I ask, as I had assumed the non mechanical Rod was the safest by far and negated the importance of such mechanical devices. Am I correct in assuming that your thinking is that such a device would be a good backup in case of a poor/no Ground connection due to corrosion, dry soil, wire cut etc.

Regards, Dave

[Crossy]

A Safe-T-Cut is a local brand of RCD. Your local sparks will know what a Safe-T-Cut is rather than trying RCD or RCBO, it goes on the load side of the meter. It's rating is determined by the meter type you have, they're usually 50A for a 15/45 meter.

With TT an RCD is VITAL and even with a MEN connection it provides a useful increase in your safety.

A ground rod alone is unlikely to have a low enough resistance to open an MCB in the event of a L-E fault and will provide zero protection from direct contact with a live wire. An RCD will do both.

Have a read of this document http://www.beama.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/3FA319A6-4159-4816-87188608E386D98D

[gdhm]

Sounds a bit like the 7 volts on the neutral is causing the LED to show something. I tried to find a circuit diagram for the Toshino board, but no joy. I did find a photo with the cover off and there is a MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor) inside by the looks for surge protection. These things degrade as they get older and leak a bit of current which may well explain the difference between the new and the old. Also remember the testing by inserting into a non earthed socket is the extreme case ,a little bit of a glow indicates a little bit of a problem with the earth or possibly the neutral.

Thanks for your investigations Litlos -very kind of you to bother.

Matter of interest is the PEA transformer near by? Go and have a look at the condition of the earth stake. If yours is dry, I bet that one is as well. May be take some liquid up there to wet that down as well. The locals will think you are crazy, but all in the name of science. A couple of litres should do it. The effect should be that the voltage on the neutral goes down near zero. Remember it is not just you on the system. Everyone on the downstream of the transformer is sharing the system.

I firmly believe the nearest PEA transformer is maybe several 100 metres away.

Ground Stakes. Well I know the our pylon and the 2 either side have no Earth stake and I would not be surprised if few (if any) do have in our small soi. In other sois near us I recall ground straps seemed to be on APPROX every other or third Pylon or so . I would have to check to be more precise

However all being equal it is as Crossy said, really a small problem. The main thing is as long as your earth leakage protection is working when tested you are pretty safe. Clean up the connection to the earth rod as mentioned before and put a plant that needs watering close by to ensure the ground near the earth rod stays damp. THAT'S A VERY GOOD IDEA Should be fine.

When I take Crossy's advice in day or so and put a plastic pipe around the upper clamped part of the ground rod and painting it with acrylic paint (or would caking silicone sealant be even better) Is it OK to fill the inside with sand to ensure no soil can rise from below when Monsoon rains saturate our garden. I know we have a high water table coz its a real pain with our septic tank run off vertical concrete cylinders.

Thanks, Dave

Cheers

[gdhm]

A Safe-T-Cut is a local brand of RCD. Your local sparks will know what a Safe-T-Cut is rather than trying RCD or RCBO, it goes on the load side of the meter. It's rating is determined by the meter type you have, they're usually 50A for a 15/45 meter.

With TT an RCD is VITAL and even with a MEN connection it provides a useful increase in your safety.

A ground rod alone is unlikely to have a low enough resistance to open an MCB in the event of a L-E fault and will provide zero protection from direct contact with a live wire. An RCD will do both.

Have a read of this document http://www.beama.org...7188608E386D98D

Hi Crossy,

I don't think I have this MEN thing. This is a photo of the inside of my 2 fuse boxes at time of house building (near completion of electrical wiring.

Probably tell you much more than me though I am not happy to see so much insulation tape no doubt due to inadequate lengths of some wires. I had the cable sleeves removed as I felt ugly and did not like screws being screwed into it and it moved and was too small. I quickly got a carpenter after house build finished to hide the cabling in a plaster boarded box type frame.

I have looked at the Safe T- Cut units http://www.safe-t-cu...hp?name=product but do not know which I should target or what level of Amp rating ability I need.

Perhaps you'd be kind enough to suggest which should do the job in a large house of 3 people (I appreciate you cannot be certain without seeing house so what would be a likely AMP with a little to spare but but an excessive over the top level). The most power fixtures are the water heaters 5Kw and 8KW (no idea why the 5KW is not only faster at heating up but heats up higher ss well. Will not cry when the German made 8KW unit dies and I will replace with the same make and model (if possible) as the 5Kw unit (Italian I think).

Many thanks

Dave

Edited March 5, 2012 by gdhm

[Crossy]

It doesn't look like you have MEN, do NOT that's NOT install it unless you KNOW your area is wired for it.

What size meter do you have, it will be marked 5/15, 15/45 or 30/100? Your Safe-T-Cut should be respectively 20A, 50A, 100A (or the nearest they do) one of the Super-Plus range is what you need. I hope you have at least a 15/45.

I would not have accepted that installation, in fact I would have physically ejected the sparks from the site. Taped joints (every one a potential fire) and inconsistent colour codes are a start, I would also be suspect of the cable sizes being used although it's difficult to tell actual sizes and breaker ratings from the images.

[bankruatsteve]

I would not have accepted that installation, in fact I would have physically ejected the sparks from the site. Taped joints (every one a potential fire) and inconsistent colour codes are a start, I would also be suspect of the cable sizes being used although it's difficult to tell actual sizes and breaker ratings from the images.

Aw, c'mon Crossy - a bit overboard there yah? Securely twisted and taped joints in an enclosure are no more of a hazzard than other means. At least the neutral and ground seems to be "normal" color. Improper sized cable would be bad of course -but otherwise - hey looks good to me. For what that's worth.

[gdhm]

It doesn't look like you have MEN, do NOT that's NOT install it unless you KNOW your area is wired for it.

What size meter do you have, it will be marked 5/15, 15/45 or 30/100? Your Safe-T-Cut should be respectively 20A, 50A, 100A (or the nearest they do) one of the Super-Plus range is what you need. I hope you have at least a 15/45.

I would not have accepted that installation, in fact I would have physically ejected the sparks from the site. Taped joints (every one a potential fire) and inconsistent colour codes are a start, I would also be suspect of the cable sizes being used although it's difficult to tell actual sizes and breaker ratings from the images.

Hi Crossy,

Of course I cannot see 15/45 or anything like that format on my meter. In fact I note all 3 meters on our pylon are different.

Attached is a photo of ours.

aside: when I got up at 7am (early for me) I could barely see my dim Red LED and did a voltage test 228V Live to Ground and 3-4 V Neutral to Ground. (half Yesterday's and confirms the dim glow on thr4 Red LED is related to volts on Neutral to Ground.

Oddly after 30 mins it crept up to Live 230 V Neutral 6-8

3½ hours later it is Live 222 Neutral 4-5.

No idea why the change as we are not in our house using any extra power since 7am.

Not that variations 2 or 3 volts seem important

Dave

Edited March 6, 2012 by gdhm

[terryq]

From the photo you have a 30/100A meter, look just above the rotating disc it says ..220v 30(100) A 50Hz

As per Crossy 100A Safe-T-Cut required.

The Live - Neutral voltage basically depends on imbalance in the 3 phases. ie how many amps are flowing in each of the 3 phases. A value up to 10v is to be expected (as it is not a MEN system). Nothing you can do to control it , as depends on loads being drawn by 3 (single phase) houses at any moment.