Crackdown On Land Owned By Foreign Residents

[SomTumTiger]

Its just sound and fury, signifying nothing - stop being so sensitive.

[airconsult]

Anybody know anything about the law that allows people to claim ownership of property that they have squatted on or occupied for a certain period of time? I know this is a fairly common thing in Thailand and many families have gained the rights to property from private/business properties to government land where they have lived for a certain period without any eviction notice. Just curious if those laws would apply to an alien who took up residency on some remote patch of land for the prescribed time period and if he/she would be granted the land title and possibly citizenship ... highly doubtful but these sort of old laws sometimes have loopholes like this in them.

There is a name for this type of land acquisition but it is escaping me now. I think many countries have or had these types of laws on their books at one time or another but it is just hard to find a place in most countries where you will not be run off if you set up a residence on somebody else's property let alone even build one without a permit.

Adverse Possession (in Thai Law) Section 1382 of the Civil and Commercial Code

One definition from a book (brief) http://www.bia.co.th/011.html

And a Supreme Court slip opinion in 2007 (where it was denied, but only because they had not been resident 10 years)

http://www.thailawforum.com/supreme_court_opinions/2007-Slip-Issue-1.html

Cheers

[submaniac]

The law is a bit confusing:

Thai adverse possession law:

http://www.samuifors...art-3.html#1366

Section 1382. Where a person has, for an uninterrupted period of ten years in case of an immovable, or five years in case of a movable, peacefully and openly possessed a property belonging to another, with the intention to be its owner, he acquires the ownership of it.

This is listed under Title III "Possession";

Title II is "ownership";

ownership and possession are not necessarily the same. For example, you own a piece of landlocked property and to come on or off the property you have to go through your neighbor's property. By doing it enough times you may have obtained, adversely and without your neighbor's consent, an easement to use his property. This is not the same as "adverse possession" by which you own outright your neighbor's property, including the right to sell it.

Under the Thai system there are different "titles" to the property. The following is excerpted and summarized from http://www.pricesano...in-thailand.php . The lawyer/founder of this particular law firm is Khun Harvey Price who btw is a falang who has obtained Thai citizenship and has been in Thailand since 1964-->I have met him, and he has a reputation of being one of the best lawyers in Thailand. If his firm puts something out, I would rely on the accuracies of the statements.

• a chanote (equivalent to “fee simple”) ....
  
• a nor sor saam gor (or a “confirmed certificate of use”) ...
  
• a nor sor saam (or a “certificate of use”) ...
  
• a sor kor neung (or a “certificate of possession”) ...
  

As you can see, the different types of "Titles" relate to the "ownership" interest in the property. A full chanote is "ownership" analogous to fee simple absolute (outright ownership). The other "titles" are certificates to "possess" or "use" . So while the Thai law may allow for "adverse possession" in that an adverse possessor may "possess" or "use" the land, it may not(or may--I could be wrong) equate to an actual "ownership" of the property--meaning the right to sell it for value. So if you "possess" a property for 10 years you may be entitled to obtain a certificate of use or possession, not necessarily the full chanote. This may be analogous to the distinction between an easement and full ownership adverse possession.

Once again, I could be wrong. I have attached English translations of the Thai law. Please read and interpret for yourself, as I am not your lawyer.

Edited March 14, 2012 by submaniac

[GentlemanJim]

Two things, I agree with some posters that Farangs do not appear to be flavour of the month with this Government, and that does give a little cause for concern. History has shown how vindictive Thaksin is to those around him who cross his path. IF he does come back and gets back into political power, or if he simply ups the ante with his present 'advice' to his sister then Farangs could be in for a tough time. I don't think Thaksin will easily forgive those nations who refused him entry or cancelled his visa, and the citizens of those lands could find themselves under serious prejudice in the future................bugger!

Secondly, does anybody know the procedure or paperwork required to hand over ones assets to the wife without any claim on them? This does seem the prudent thing to ensure is done for those of us settled in long term 'this is it' relationships. I have read that by simply stating you have no claim to any property you may co own with your wife then it is effectively problem solved. I know this solution is not for everyone, but it will work for me, has anybody done it?

[Gary A]

The Treaty of Amity does give Americans some business advantages but owning land is NOT one of them. It's really a simple thing and no matter how much you pay lawyers who say that you can own land, you can't. I will readily admit that I have a bias and have no use for any lawyer.

I have researched as many options as I could find and have found NONE that would legally protect me as far as owning property other than a condo in my name. If you do your due diligence, you will find this out without paying a lawyer for useless and erroneous advice.

YES, I have bought property for my Thai wife and at the land office, dutifully signed off any rights that I may have had as far as having a financial interest in the properties. Naturally I don't expect her to throw me out but being realistic, it could happen. Truthfully, losing the property would not bother me nearly as much as losing my wife. There is no doubt that I would survive because life goes on.

Maybe the difference between myself and other farangs is that I do own a condo in my name. I wouldn't miss any meals and would still have a roof over my head. I didn't have to pay any scheming lawyer to accomplish that. Perhaps the biggest danger we face is trusting a lawyer to give us good "legal" advice and paying them to protect our assets.

[silsburyhill]

Two things, I agree with some posters that Farangs do not appear to be flavour of the month with this Government, and that does give a little cause for concern.

Whoa! Are you able to cite any ThaI 'Government' of whatever xenophobic stripe as 'appearing to view farangs [sic] as flavour of the Forever, let alone now? If you stupidly believe the Democrats (ha! There's an oxymoron) or the current morons to actually favour foreign investment on the smaller scale, read 'lower end', you are sadly mistaken.

That having been said. Nothing, but nothing, is going to happen. Same same their endemic and rampant corruption.

[oops]

The whole idea is to keep the farrangs illegal in an effort to keep control over us. If they did anything like this it would really close up several areas and ruin what is left of an already crapy market.

They keep working on everyones insecuities, makiing it more and more difficult to want to stay here. I know many people who are selling to move to other contries or go back home.

People came here to retire and they seem to just become targets. The more your involved with this country the more they invade your rights and try to take away your dignity. Even I am tired and

Even my wife and I are going to move back to my country because of many things but the biggest problem is the schools. If you really love your children you can't put them in a public school they come out more dumb then they went in. So you have to pay for school fee's to a school that is hell bent on public display with little ability to help your child learn. 1 teacher per 40 of 50 students..?

Idiots like this guy don't realize the impact their comments have on the retires and people here that are spending their hard earned money. I am guessing he graduated for a local Public Thai school

[oops]

Two things, I agree with some posters that Farangs do not appear to be flavour of the month with this Government, and that does give a little cause for concern. History has shown how vindictive Thaksin is to those around him who cross his path. IF he does come back and gets back into political power, or if he simply ups the ante with his present 'advice' to his sister then Farangs could be in for a tough time. I don't think Thaksin will easily forgive those nations who refused him entry or cancelled his visa, and the citizens of those lands could find themselves under serious prejudice in the future................bugger!

Secondly, does anybody know the procedure or paperwork required to hand over ones assets to the wife without any claim on them? This does seem the prudent thing to ensure is done for those of us settled in long term 'this is it' relationships. I have read that by simply stating you have no claim to any property you may co own with your wife then it is effectively problem solved. I know this solution is not for everyone, but it will work for me, has anybody done it?

I don't know how long you have followed this but my perception of this is; that it doesn't matter what you do if you used your money to purchase the home. The Thai women has to prove she bought the home with her money. What most people fail to realize there are a lot of wealthy Thais in high places that don't like the fact that so many," I am paraphrazing" ( Black Women) own property and in some cases now have more money then the HIGH SO and that they walk past them with pride now and feeling no reason to sawadee them.. It is more about that then anything else. If you have ever had to deal with some of these High So you will see it's like dealing with a 4 and 5 year old and their toys or candy. You cannot reason with them. They imagine something in their heads and thats it. I watched this white High So Chinese Thai women in her late 50's jump up and down like a child in front of me and her staff after making an offer on her condo that had been sitting for 3 years vancant ...she stood up and starting jumping around in a circle screaming no no no no no the Thai staff looked and me with a smiled as I was doing everything I could to keep from laughing out loud.... she could of just countered my offer.

[griser]

No, thats not true. The american amnity agreement does not allow for americans to own land in thailand. They can only own a company 100 percent. But that company cant own land

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

[oops]

The law is a bit confusing:

Thai adverse possession law:

http://www.samuifors...art-3.html#1366

Section 1382. Where a person has, for an uninterrupted period of ten years in case of an immovable, or five years in case of a movable, peacefully and openly possessed a property belonging to another, with the intention to be its owner, he acquires the ownership of it.

This is listed under Title III "Possession";

Title II is "ownership";

ownership and possession are not necessarily the same. For example, you own a piece of landlocked property and to come on or off the property you have to go through your neighbor's property. By doing it enough times you may have obtained, adversely and without your neighbor's consent, an easement to use his property. This is not the same as "adverse possession" by which you own outright your neighbor's property, including the right to sell it.

Under the Thai system there are different "titles" to the property. The following is excerpted and summarized from http://www.pricesano...in-thailand.php . The lawyer/founder of this particular law firm is Khun Harvey Price who btw is a falang who has obtained Thai citizenship and has been in Thailand since 1964-->I have met him, and he has a reputation of being one of the best lawyers in Thailand. If his firm puts something out, I would rely on the accuracies of the statements.

• a chanote (equivalent to “fee simple”) ....
  
• a nor sor saam gor (or a “confirmed certificate of use”) ...
  
• a nor sor saam (or a “certificate of use”) ...
  
• a sor kor neung (or a “certificate of possession”) ...
  

As you can see, the different types of "Titles" relate to the "ownership" interest in the property. A full chanote is "ownership" analogous to fee simple absolute (outright ownership). The other "titles" are certificates to "possess" or "use" . So while the Thai law may allow for "adverse possession" in that an adverse possessor may "possess" or "use" the land, it may not(or may--I could be wrong) equate to an actual "ownership" of the property--meaning the right to sell it for value. So if you "possess" a property for 10 years you may be entitled to obtain a certificate of use or possession, not necessarily the full chanote. This may be analogous to the distinction between an easement and full ownership adverse possession.

Once again, I could be wrong. I have attached English translations of the Thai law. Please read and interpret for yourself, as I am not your lawyer.

I hate to say this but everyone would be wrong in their translation even if they won in court...becuase everything is on a case by case, not to mention the senority level or deepest pockets, Today you win in court and tomorrow your back in court becaues the ruling was illigle .

And actually they're not confusing laws at all......they're magical.... Never seen laws in my life that are so flexable that they actually are changed on a hourly basis and from person to person in the translations. That they change so much it's more like magic. POOOF ! there goes your money your property......oh and by the way...were is my Thai wife?..

[billd766]

only a fool buy here,smart men like me rent and keep low profile.

all the ownerships through companies exist to f... you up at the end.married,give her all,and she will quit you,ahah....house gone,and she will deport you like a bum,ahah....

buy even condo and you will feel your pain very soon.

thailand=rent land....

Without wishing to be personal or upset you, you are talking <deleted> in generalities.

Not EVERY Thai woman wants all of your money and none of you.

I have been coming to, working and living in Thailand for nearly 20 years and of all the guys I personally know only 2 out of 15 or more marriages have broken up. Of the rest about 10 are still living happily married in Thailand with their wives and children.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Tatsujin]

With reference to the Amity Treaty, I quote:

it is important to be aware that the Amity Treaty does not grant the right to immigrate, the right to own land, the right to a visa nor the right to work.

[billd766]

it s illegal to give money to lady to buy land.it s a fact.if they found it,u got no recourse and you are deportable.....

you have 0 right here in the los.

Wrong once again.

If I choose to give my wife 50 baht or 50 million baht I can do so quite legally.

If she wants to buy land with it she can do so.

All I have to do is sign at the Amphur that the land belongs to her and I accept that I have no right over it at all.

For me and for many other farangs married to Thais and who have families it is, was, and never will be a problem.

Edited March 14, 2012 by billd766

[mommysboy]

I think this is firing warning shots about a future land grab and I would urge anyone to ditch the 'company ownership route' as essentially it is built on an illegal principle, the trouble with Thai law is that there is usually lots of little exclusions which are a matter of interpretation.

[Nisa]

I think this is firing warning shots about a future land grab and I would urge anyone to ditch the 'company ownership route' as essentially it is built on an illegal principle, the trouble with Thai law is that there is usually lots of little exclusions which are a matter of interpretation.

I would further advise people to not do anything illegal or things that clearly attempt to circumvent the spirit of a law in a foreign country because chances are they don't know the fully comprehend the possible consequences.

[GentlemanJim]

Two things, I agree with some posters that Farangs do not appear to be flavour of the month with this Government, and that does give a little cause for concern.

Whoa! Are you able to cite any ThaI 'Government' of whatever xenophobic stripe as 'appearing to view farangs [sic] as flavour of the Forever, let alone now? If you stupidly believe the Democrats (ha! There's an oxymoron) or the current morons to actually favour foreign investment on the smaller scale, read 'lower end', you are sadly mistaken.

That having been said. Nothing, but nothing, is going to happen. Same same their endemic and rampant corruption.

Whoa! How about you tone it down. You could have said "If you believe the Democrats" etc etc, but you wade straight in with "If you stupidly believe" My comment did nothing to attract yours.

[waza]

Where in the news article does it say Foriegn expats own 30% of Thailand? The amount of agricultural land owned by foriegn companies and enterprises is massive compares to all the housing blocks owned by the wives of expats combined.

[sprq]

When you farang morons finally start to understand it ?

You are only allowed to spend as much as possible money for as less as valuablle things, but NEVER got a real possession back for it.

Understand it: the only reason you are tolerated in Thailand is because you leave a lot of money here. But.. the best.. simply transfer it, and stay in your own country.

Where are you writing this from? Your nice house in England? Or France? Or Canada? Or the USA? Or Australia? Or New Zealand? Or Spain? Or Germany? Or Switzerland? Or Italy? Etc. etc.

[Gary A]

I like topics like this. It shows me just how happy and how much better off I am than some of the negative farangs. It has to be a miserable existence for some people who post here.

I think the most negative posters have been outsmarted by these stupid Issan farm girls. If they think the Thais are stupid, it doesn't say much for those educated worldly farangs.

[bigbamboo]

only a fool buy here,smart men like me rent and keep low profile.

all the ownerships through companies exist to f... you up at the end.married,give her all,and she will quit you,ahah....house gone,and she will deport you like a bum,ahah....

buy even condo and you will feel your pain very soon.

thailand=rent land....

Without wishing to be personal or upset you, you are talking <deleted> in generalities.

Not EVERY Thai woman wants all of your money and none of you.

I have been coming to, working and living in Thailand for nearly 20 years and of all the guys I personally know only 2 out of 15 or more marriages have broken up. Of the rest about 10 are still living happily married in Thailand with their wives and children.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Judging by his moniker I wonder if SwissTouristPattaya is in Thailand for the same reason as those of us who are happily married here.

[Soutpeel]

When you farang morons finally start to understand it ?

You are only allowed to spend as much as possible money for as less as valuablle things, but NEVER got a real possession back for it.

Understand it: the only reason you are tolerated in Thailand is because you leave a lot of money here. But.. the best.. simply transfer it, and stay in your own country.

Where are you writing this from? Your nice house in England? Or France? Or Canada? Or the USA? Or Australia? Or New Zealand? Or Spain? Or Germany? Or Switzerland? Or Italy? Etc. etc.

WOW you know the names of 10 whole countries I am impressed, keep up the studies old chap...next year you may be able to name some counties in Africa or South America as well

[Soutpeel]

only a fool buy here,smart men like me rent and keep low profile.

all the ownerships through companies exist to f... you up at the end.married,give her all,and she will quit you,ahah....house gone,and she will deport you like a bum,ahah....

buy even condo and you will feel your pain very soon.

thailand=rent land....

Without wishing to be personal or upset you, you are talking <deleted> in generalities.

Not EVERY Thai woman wants all of your money and none of you.

I have been coming to, working and living in Thailand for nearly 20 years and of all the guys I personally know only 2 out of 15 or more marriages have broken up. Of the rest about 10 are still living happily married in Thailand with their wives and children.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Judging by his moniker I wonder if SwissTouristPattaya is in Thailand for the same reason as those of us who are happily married here.

And let me guess you came to Thailand for the temples, culture and beaches ?

[bigbamboo]

When you farang morons finally start to understand it ?

You are only allowed to spend as much as possible money for as less as valuablle things, but NEVER got a real possession back for it.

Understand it: the only reason you are tolerated in Thailand is because you leave a lot of money here. But.. the best.. simply transfer it, and stay in your own country.

Where are you writing this from? Your nice house in England? Or France? Or Canada? Or the USA? Or Australia? Or New Zealand? Or Spain? Or Germany? Or Switzerland? Or Italy? Etc. etc.

Who is this ghastly puipuitom character? With his money obsession I'm guessing an ugly fat businessman who's been screwed over in Thailand!

[Soutpeel]

When you farang morons finally start to understand it ?

You are only allowed to spend as much as possible money for as less as valuablle things, but NEVER got a real possession back for it.

Understand it: the only reason you are tolerated in Thailand is because you leave a lot of money here. But.. the best.. simply transfer it, and stay in your own country.

Where are you writing this from? Your nice house in England? Or France? Or Canada? Or the USA? Or Australia? Or New Zealand? Or Spain? Or Germany? Or Switzerland? Or Italy? Etc. etc.

Who is this ghastly puipuitom character? With his money obsession I'm guessing an ugly fat businessman who's been screwed over in Thailand!

And let me guess....you have been on the cover of Men's health and fitness a few times have you ?....do you wear your chang vest tucked into your shorts or outside your shorts and do you wear socks with your sandles/flip flops ?

Edited March 14, 2012 by Soutpeel

[bigbamboo]

only a fool buy here,smart men like me rent and keep low profile.

all the ownerships through companies exist to f... you up at the end.married,give her all,and she will quit you,ahah....house gone,and she will deport you like a bum,ahah....

buy even condo and you will feel your pain very soon.

thailand=rent land....

Without wishing to be personal or upset you, you are talking <deleted> in generalities.

Not EVERY Thai woman wants all of your money and none of you.

I have been coming to, working and living in Thailand for nearly 20 years and of all the guys I personally know only 2 out of 15 or more marriages have broken up. Of the rest about 10 are still living happily married in Thailand with their wives and children.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Judging by his moniker I wonder if SwissTouristPattaya is in Thailand for the same reason as those of us who are happily married here.

And let me guess you came to Thailand for the temples, culture and beaches ?

No, I came to Thailand from England to live in semi retired luxury with my Thai partner who quit her job as a surgical nurse and became my wife.

[Soutpeel]

No, I came to Thailand from England to live in semi retired luxury with my Thai partner who quit her job as a surgical nurse and became my wife.

So that makes you better than someone who came here as a tourist for a quick shag then ? everyone to their own old chap

[bigbamboo]

No, I came to Thailand from England to live in semi retired luxury with my Thai partner who quit her job as a surgical nurse and became my wife.

So that makes you better than someone who came here as a tourist for a quick shag then ? everyone to their own old chap

Who said I was better? I was simply responding to the cynical rantings of an anti Thai poster, who you seem to be defending.

Edited March 14, 2012 by bigbamboo

[swerver]

Another bullshit story. We are not allowed to own land so all the land 'owned by foreigners' is actually owned by Thais, be it nominees or people like jay and me. The Thais still own it.

The Amity Treaty enables American citizens to own up to 1 rai of land. It has not been modified or annulled to date.

Thanks - I'll have to look that up.

The Amity Treaty enables American citizens to own up to 1 Rai of land [to construct a home on]. As far as known, it has not been modified or annulled to date.

If and American wants to try this Amity Treaty approval for 1 Rai of land he better be of young age because it has to wind its way through the Thai Court system. Sixty-, Seventy-year old retirees better forget about it. Of course also you can forget marry a Thai female, since May 2011 the Thai Law was enacted, Foreigners fifty year of age and older are not allowed to marry Thai females regardless of adult Thai female age. If they defy the Thai Law and marry in a foreign country, the Thai female risks loosing her Thai citizenship entitlements.

This Amity Treaty with America is a left over from WW II when Thailand was a member of the Axis and Churchill was adamant for Thailand to be declared and treated as Enemy of the Allies.

The Seri Thais ( think it was Mr. Sukhumvit) pestered the hell out of FDR to get Churchill to change its mind and for Thailand not to be regarded an Enemy of the Allies. In the end FDR succeeded to change Churchill’s stand. In appreciation for this the young king at the request of the Seri Thai offered America the Amity Treaty including this 1-Rai of land for the construction of a personal residence.

Note: It is not to be used for business purposes and/or commercial agriculture.

[Soutpeel]

No, I came to Thailand from England to live in semi retired luxury with my Thai partner who quit her job as a surgical nurse and became my wife.

So that makes you better than someone who came here as a tourist for a quick shag then ? everyone to their own old chap

Who said I was better? I was simply responding to the cynical rantings of an anti Thai poster, who you seem to be defending.

Go back read what you wrote..., not defending anyone...your the one who insists on going competely off topic...at least his rant was a little related to the topic being discussed...what has commenting on his user name and implying he is sexpat got to do with "Crackdown On Land Owned By Foreign Residents", further your subsequent post regarding "fat ugly businesss men...seems like a little mini-rant to me....not at all different different to the "Cynical rantings" you mention....pots, kettles black etc old chap..

[Soutpeel]

Of course also you can forget marry a Thai female, since May 2011 the Thai Law was enacted, Foreigners fifty year of age and older are not allowed to marry Thai females regardless of adult Thai female age. If they defy the Thai Law and marry in a foreign country, the Thai female risks loosing her Thai citizenship entitlements.

Are you sure you are taking about Thailand and not Cambodia, think you are little confused..there is no such law in Thailand. (not that it wouldnt be a bad thing to do)

Out interest back on topic how US citizens under the Amity Treaty have actually aquired land by this route...my guess not many

Edited March 14, 2012 by Soutpeel