UK pensions

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

98% of people currently approaching retirement have a pension fund worth less than £1.25 million. The median pension fund for such people is said to be £55,000. Furthermore,99% of pension savers are said to make annual contributions to their pensions of less than £40,000. The average contribution to a pension is just £6,000 a year.

From memory your numbers seem all wrong, I seem to recall that the median fund size is far smaller, 35k as I recall and that average contributions were around 3K. I'll do some digging.

I got the info from Moneywise, online. You can find them in an article by Ruth Emery,dated 05.12.12. The figures were quoted as extracts from George Osbourne's Autumn Statement.

Update. I have just the Autumn Statement online and here is the direct quote:

"From 2014-15, I will further reduce the lifetime allowance from £1.5 million to £1.25 million and reduce the annual allowance from £50,000 to £40,000.

This will reduce the cost of tax relief to the public purse by an extra £1 billion a year by 2016-17.

98% of people currently approaching retirement have a pension pot worth less than £1.25 million.

Indeed, the median pot for such people is just £55,000.

99% of pension savers make annual contributions to their pensions of less than £40,000.

The average contribution to a pension is just £6,000 a year.

I know these tax measures will not be welcomed by all; ways to reduce the deficit never are.

But we must show we’re all in this together".

[chiang mai]

There was a discussion some time ago about whether or not the Thai wives of UK pensioners would be entitled to recieve the pension payments in the event of the UK pensioners death. At the time of the debate I undertook to write to the pensions office to find ou what the official line is on this subject, regrettably I am now unable to now find that discussion/thread so I'll post my results here.

The pensions office replied:

"Thank you for your e-mail dated 10 December 2012 asking for details of UK Bereavement Benefit that your wife would be entitled to claim in the event of your death. I can advise that if your wife is under the age of 45 she will only be entitled to a Bereavement Payment. If she is over the age of 45 she will also be entitled to a weekly benefit for 52 weeks. We are unable to advise how much the weekly benefit would be as this is only calculated at the time of death. This is based on current legislation and is subject to change in the future.

I hope this answers your query.

Yours sincerely"

Whilst the above refers to my email of 10 Dec this was preceeded by a series of letters backwards and forwards thus the original question was asked quite some time ago!

[prakhonchai nick]

I am aware that there are more than a few British members who are in receipt of state pension, and have them increased every year by virtue of telling the Pensions dept that they are resident in the UK.

Additionally there are probably a few who are in receipt of the dependents allowance ( for spouses), but have divorced since claiming, and failed to tell the Pensions dept.

The likliehood of being found out whilst receiving this additional income is perhaps small, but there is always the possibility, and then there will be big trouble.

However the problems arise after death of the pensioner, and there is a wife/widow and perhaps children.

When the widow gets round to claiming bereavement benefits, the pensions dept will almost certainly realise that they have been overpaying, and will try and recover the overpayment from the deceaseds estate. I am currently assisting an Isaan widow to obtain bereavement benefits where her husband has been overpaid more than 2 million baht over the past 10 years.

Whilst bereavement benefits are specifically payable to the widow, I can imagine it will not be straight sailing to get benefits, especially as there is no estate from which to claim repayment.

Even if there were an estate and repayment was made, it might drastically reduce the amount of money available to the widow and her family.

For those of you who have been less than totally honest, perhaps it is time to think again, and tell the Pension dept that you have now come to live permanently in Thailand. Hardly fair to pass on and leave one big mess for your loving wife and family.

[prakhonchai nick]

For anyone considering deferring the state pension, bear in mind it is not as beneficial as it would appear at first sight.

1) For every 5 weeks you defer, you receive a 1% increase added to your deferred pension. If you pass 6th April, you also receive the annual inflation increase (minimum 2.5%). You receive this annual increase during deferrment even if you live in Thailand, but there are no increases once you claim.

2) If you claim pension within 1 year of your state retirement age , your pension will be increased by the amount you have gained by deferring (ie 1% for every 5 weeks + any inflation increase). However, you will not have received any pension at all during the weeks of deferral. You will have lost £100+ a week during the deferrment period, and it will take a long time to recoup the lost pension with just the increased weekly amount of around £12/13.

3) If you claim pension after 1 year, you have the option or receiving the pension you would have had (ie £100+ a week) together with interest of 2% above base rate during the deferral period, or receiving the then current weekly pension to which is added the additional 1% for every 5 weeks that you deferred.

MY ADVICE to anyone is only consider deferring for 1 x 5 week period, if during that time the 6th April inflation increase kicks in. At the moment it is only 2.5% and with the 1% deferral increase, you would likely receive only around an extra £200 a year. BUT you would have lost over £500 in lost pension payment during that 5 week deferral period, so you do not break even for 2.5/3 years.

Edited January 8, 2013 by prakhonchai nick

[Tafia]

Some reading for you, it avoids speculation and opinions.

Deferring State Pension https://www.gov.uk/d...g-state-pension

Bereavement Payments https://www.gov.uk/b...ement-allowance

Edited January 9, 2013 by Tafia

[prakhonchai nick]

All the recent proposed changes to winter fuel, bus passes, TV licences affect pensioners in general and UK pensioners in particular.. My concern is that at some stage in the future, and as happens in some other countries, pensioners living outside the UK will not receive any pension unless physically resident in the UK. Similarly I forsee a time when bereavement benefits for our wives/widows will not be payable unless they relocate to the UK after our deaths.

[chiang mai]

I think it very unlikely that UK pensions would only become payable to residents, I am not aware of any western country that does so. I can however forsee a model whereby non-resident pensions are taxed at source, as is the case for US green card holders who are not resident.

[prakhonchai nick]

If you are legally married when you die, then your widow is eligible for pension and bereavement benefits etc. However such matters cannot always be dealt with at the last minute. Registering a Thai marriage is not just popping down to the amphur, paying your 40bt, and leaving in 15 minutes. The foreigne first has to have papers signed by the embassy, translated into Thai, then stamped by the Thai Foreign Office. This can take up to 1 week. Note also that once having obtained these papers, marriage registration usually has to done within 3 months.

If you should be knocked down by a car, or suffer a heart attack, then there is not usually much chance of a last minute marriage registration!

Out of interest, I would like to know what you consider the drawbacks to a Thai registered marriage. I can only see the ongoing benefits.

[meatboy]

as my wf worked in the uk.20yrs.she will get an occupational works pension when she wants it[from age 55] and also she is entitled to a uk.state pension.when she finished work she had to nominate a person to recieve her works pension in the case of death.but what happens to her state pension if i have already passed away?i cant seem to find anything about it in the guide's i got,it only state's that your husband or wife can claim as additional pension,she wont be happy if it dies with her.

[prakhonchai nick]

Your wife will need to claim the state pension, whether you are still living or not. Normally in the UK the Dept of Pensions will forward an application form around 4 months before state pension age - but this may not happen if you/your wife are in Thailand

Should you die before your wife is old enough to claim state pension, she will need to contact Pensions dept anyway to claim bereavement benefits and that will put her in the system..

Having worked in the UK and presumably paid NI contributions, your wife will be entitled to a state pension in her own right, and I believe 50% of any "additional pension", formerly known as "SERPS" payable to you will also be added to it after your death.

Bear in mind thouigh that the onus is on you and/or your wife to lodge a claim. The Pension Dept won't come looking for you!

[Eff1n2ret]

I think it very unlikely that UK pensions would only become payable to residents, I am not aware of any western country that does so.

I agree, unlikely, but according to international treaty they would be entitled to do this. See this from the ECHR judgement:-

Article 69 of the 1952 International Labour Organisation's Social Security (Minimum Standards) Convention 1952 (“the 1952 ILO Convention”) provides that a benefit to which a protected person would otherwise be entitled in compliance with the 1952 ILO Convention (including old age benefit) may be suspended, in whole or in part, by national law as long as the person concerned is absent from the territory of the State concerned. The above provision is echoed in Article 68 of the 1964 European Code of Social Security and Article 74(1)(f) of the 1990 European Code of Social Security (Revised).

[prakhonchai nick]

Having studied the "white paper", it is looking more likely that our Thai wives will not be eligible for a UK state pension when they are old enough.

For example, a couple in which the man has a full basic state pension and his pension eligible wife has no record of making NICs currently get about £172 a week in state pension. This consists of the man's pension of £107.45 a week, plus his wife's entitlement to 60pc of that figure.

But if this entitlement is scrapped -which appears likely - when the flat-rate pension of £144 a week is introduced, the man will receive that figure and his wife will get nothing,

[exeter]

A returning pensioner from abroad who has had their increases frozen can, telephone the DWP and have the current rate paid to them whilst in the UK, when exiting they expect you to tell them the date you are departing at which point your pension will revert to the level you had before returning, if that makes sense.

[theoldgit]

For those of you out there who, like me, are in receipt of Civil Service Pensions, are you aware that you need to ask the International Pension Service to instruct Capita to pay the increase on the GMP?

I was advised to do this by a former colleague, it meant nothing to me or indeed the first lady I spoke to at the International Pension, but the upshot is that I received a letter from Capita this morning advising me that my gross Civil Service pension is being increased by a tad over £17 a month and that they paying me arrears of £180 next week.

OK, not a great deal but every little bit helps, and certainly worth a phone call.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

So really what you are saying is that the law needs to changed to get our annual increases re instated or a rule change at the DWP? When you look at some of the important issues that recently passed through parliament, like Gay Marriage, you can see that either there is hope for a change or that we are the bottem of the ladder in that respect.

Sorry for the delay in replying. It would indeed require a change in the law, probably to Section 3 of the Social Security; Up rating Regulations 2001. Such a change of law is relatively easy so this is not the problem. The problem arises because the government, as a matter policy, has decided not to up rate state pensions for non resident UK pensioners except for those living in the EU (and it's territories) and those residing in countries with which the UK government has a reciprocal Social Security agreement. Contrary to logic, the fact of or the absence of such an agreement makes not a jot's worth of difference to the capacity of the UK government to award the increases. I rather suspect that this is nothing more than a device to load the blame on to the Thai government, making it appear that the reason the pensioners don't get their increases is their fault, for not entering into an SS agreement. It is in my view self evident that the Thai government has absolutely nothing to gain, from UK pensioners,residing within it's territory, being denied their annual pension increases. On the contrary, the same group would have more money to spend in Thailand! This whole issue is so perfectly misunderstood and misrepresented that when reading the Law Lords judgement I noticed that one summary decision was based on the false belief that pensioners abroad didn't pay UK tax and therefore didn't contribute to the UK economy!

The decision not to pay the increase is purely one of policy originating from an economic reason and a miserable and mean spirited one at that!

Edited March 13, 2013 by Rajab Al Zarahni

[Lite Beer]

The single-tier pension will be introduced in 2016, a year earlier than previously planned

The Government will speed up the introduction of a new, simple state pension system and a cap on the cost of social care, Chancellor George Osborne has announced.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/uk/pension-plan-accelerated-osborne-29135542.html

[cardholder]

Cannot find an answer in this thread so apologise if already answered elswhere

I have been getting mixed information about the qualification of my British State Pension when I reach the age of 65,

I was born in 1950 and am 62 years of age.

I moved to Thailand in June 2011 (60 years of age) and am aware that my pension will be frozen as I live abroad.

My question is will it be frozen at 60 years of age (When I arrived) or will it be frozen at my qualification age of 65 (my qualification is August 16th 2015)?

Any information will enable how I plan my stay here.

It will be frozen on the date you choose to have the pension paid i.e. at age 65.

[Morden]

I heard that a group of UK expats. Australia is pressing the UK government on the matter of annual increases. Their argument, I was told, is that the cost of paying increases is much lower than the saving in expenditure on welfare benefits. Has anyone heard of this and is there a similar pressure group in Thailand?

[Kwasaki]

Perhaps someone can clarify:

A British expat in Thailand is not elligible for the annual increases whilst here but if they return to the UK they are, so how long does a person have to be in the UK before the increase becomes permanent and they become elligible once again?

You can get the rise while staying there and then it reverts back to what you first received in Thailand when your pension started.

As I remember its on the Gov web site somewhere and in this thread somewhere and believe it's 2years in the UK for your pension to be fixed at that new rate when returning to Thailand.

I did look into it and decided I couldn't bear the thought of staying in the UK for 2 years.

And while you stayed the 2 years there's always the possibillity of them changing the rules.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Kwasaki

[meatboy]

Perhaps it's time to lobby this lot as they wish to reward those who have contributed to the state!!

Good idea but I suspect they would continue to freeze as they have done previously when in government.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

Sadly I agree.

what happens if prudence decides to make a comeback."och aye na noo"

[Basil B]

According to todays telegraph on line the governemnt are going to crack down on pensions being paid abroad to people who have never paid tax or set foot in the UK. It seems to be aimed at spouses and is due to be addressed in the upcoming Queens speech.

Yes I guess something like that would be on the cards not that it will save that much, just a way of scoring browny point with people who are imprisioned in their old age in the UK.

My wife was first in the UK with a 6month visa and followed on with a 2year visa, I suppose this will end up not counting when it come to the time she is due for her claim.

If she was in the UK on visit visas then she was not able to work and would not have have paid any NI.

Sorry to sound callus her but if she is Thai and subject to Thai tax then she should be looking to Thailand for her pension, the only exception I can see is if a person was working overseas and paying full UK taxes and NI who had a wife who was a "homemaker" and that would put them on a par with a wife of a person in the UK who had a wife who had never done any paid work, but doubt there are many who could claim that.

more on the story at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22423878

Edited May 6, 2013 by Basil B

[RugbyMan]

It comes to us all at some point: we did the village thing a couple of years ago and I'm relaxed about doing the Amphur part, it just seems that we never seem to get around to actually doing it, unsure why that is. Mrs CM gets all my assets when it's my turn to go so she'll be well taken care of, we did get her a UK settlement visa a few years ago but oddly we changed our minds at the last minute and subsequently we let it expire, I don't know, I just couldn't see inflicting the UK on someone as nice as Mrs Cm, she simply doesn't deserve it.

But we did check out the pension aspect and the UK pension service wrote us a nice letter basically saying that she will get nothing from my state pension entitlement. It wasn't as though we/she will actually need it, it was just that I wanted to know.

She will only get the Bereavement Payment if you legally marry. Same for Bereavement Allowance (depending on her age at the time of your death) and Widowed Parents Allowance (should there be any little Chiang Mais running around).

I might be wrong, but isn't the bereavement payment made only when you are claiming benefits?

[cheeryble]

,the op would have cost me big time in lol [2-3mill.bht.] .

If you really think that is the cost I suggest you look again.

Bumrungrad is about three times the price elsewhere and a bypass is a half million baht.

Good luck wherever!

[evadgib]

Pension & NI Contribution enquiry

Dear International Pensions Centre,

I understand from Her Majesties address to Parliament last week that changes are afoot and that information given to me in 2009 is no longer applicable. I therefore seek clarification on the following:

1. What is the current position for those born between 1958 & 1962 who had previously been directed by HMRC to stop paying NI contributions after 30 years?

1. If the answer to 1 is that we now require further contributions how do we resume paying? Can we pay retrospectively?

1. How can HMRC justify “moving the goalposts” re spousal entitlements to pensions after their partners have completed their (compulsory) obligations during their working lives?

Answers by email are preferred, given I live in SE Asia and own the email domain.

Sincerely,

Evadgib (NI no etc supplied)

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

(Received 17 March 2009)

Thank you for contacting International Pension Centre.

If your wife is under pension age, she would be entitled to a bereavement benefit based on the National Insurance contributions you have made.

If your wife is over pension age we would allow her to inherit your pension entitlement.

Yours sincerely

<name removed>

+44 191 2187777
Customer Services Unit
International Pension Centre
www.thepensionservice.gov.uk

[pinfold]

For Nontabury,yes I spend a fair bit on the computer working away ,do you? and I too am not spending time on your gobbledygook as much as it offends you Just returning from China and the US on business with a case of pneumonia I am not spending time here on you,as ill as i feel at this moment I have been in touch with the DWP,unlike you,with nonsensical review.

Forgive me but I intend to inform nobody of my whereabouts,you want to do it? up to you,not interested.

Now the laws that are being broken and the punishments meted out please, no hearsay, no hearing from someone else just the genuine article please All I ask Thank You.

[evadgib]

1. http://www.forcespensionsociety.org/

2. Quite a few:)

Forces pensions are not affected by this 'frozen' nonsense. A friend is expecting FOI results shortly that will confirm how many HM Armed Forces pension recipients are or will be among the 'Frozen' group re state pensions. IMO the organisation @para 1 should incorporate this into their overall agenda to increase their attractiveness to the ex service community living in affected countries.

HTH

Edited July 27, 2013 by evadgib

[nong38]

My P60 arrives ok.

Sorry I am not in the Phrae area but I was an officer in the 3rd North London armoured push chair brigade, saw action most days in the High Street taking out unsuspecting pedestrains caught loitering on the pavement .

[razorramone]

Not going to trawl through all this thread, you can continue to pay NI contributions while abroad. If you want UK state benefits then pay like everyone else back home does. http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/ni/volcontr/abroad.htm

Personally, it will be around 50 years before I qualify for a state pension, by which time I doubt there will even be one, so im not paying shit.

[nontabury]

We are continually told that the UK cannot afford to increase our pensions, yet how come the Germans are able to receive far superior pensions. Talking with a German friend the other evening, who told me that in the event of his death, his much younger Thai wife will receive a widow's pension of about 20,000 bht per month, maybe he's wrong, I don't know, but I do know of one Thai girl, not sure if she was legally married to her German partner, before he died a few months ago, who now receives from the German government a total of 30,000 bht per month to help her take care of their daughter.

[nong38]

All countries seem to have their own rules about a variety of subjects, I do think the Germans seem to have a better (financial) crack of the whip than the UK. We must not forget however that the UK still plays on the world stage like we used to 50 years and more ago and that comes at a cost, it may come as a surprise to some, it was to me, that the Royal Navy is rated as the second most powerful navy after the US even though it has less then it did have, but this is how we still think we can project power across the globe, then there is the overseas asid budget as well, do you apply for it or is decided by the Lottery committee? Germany does not have these burdens, I dont think the RN is aburden by the way, its a fine organisation but I think you know what I mean, the Germans spend their money in a different way to the UK

One good thing that is happening in the UK pensions is that anyone who signs up to new pension schemes where the employer and Government will match your contribution, double your money then, wish it was around when I was at work, all I got was up to 15% of the wage could be saved tax free!