UK pensions

[sandyf]

It always comes back to the fact that yours and my contributions were never invested for out future pension, as is the case for private pensions. The State pension is an illegal Ponzi scheme paying out from the new contributions. Unfortunately the Pensions are counted together with other "Benefits" so we are subject to budget limitations caused by the government wanting to pay for other vote-catching schemes first. If a private pension company tried to operate like this, the directors would be locked up.

Not quite true. In the year 2014/15, 12.8 percent of income tax went to pay state pensions.

In effect I contributed towards my own pension.

[jpinx]

It always comes back to the fact that yours and my contributions were never invested for out future pension, as is the case for private pensions. The State pension is an illegal Ponzi scheme paying out from the new contributions. Unfortunately the Pensions are counted together with other "Benefits" so we are subject to budget limitations caused by the government wanting to pay for other vote-catching schemes first. If a private pension company tried to operate like this, the directors would be locked up.

Not quite true. In the year 2014/15, 12.8 percent of income tax went to pay state pensions.

In effect I contributed towards my own pension.

I suppose that's a start - now I want the remaining 87.2% plus all the contributions I made over the last 50-odd years,,,,,,

[sandyf]

It always comes back to the fact that yours and my contributions were never invested for out future pension, as is the case for private pensions. The State pension is an illegal Ponzi scheme paying out from the new contributions. Unfortunately the Pensions are counted together with other "Benefits" so we are subject to budget limitations caused by the government wanting to pay for other vote-catching schemes first. If a private pension company tried to operate like this, the directors would be locked up.

Not quite true. In the year 2014/15, 12.8 percent of income tax went to pay state pensions.

In effect I contributed towards my own pension.

I suppose that's a start - now I want the remaining 87.2% plus all the contributions I made over the last 50-odd years,,,,,,

Tough luck, its already been spent.

Your taxes and public spending

This shows a break down of how your taxes have been or will be spent by government.

Welfare (25.3%)

Health (19.9%)

State Pensions (12.8%)

Education (12.5%)

Defence (5.4%)

National Debt Interest (5.0%)

Public Order and Safety (4.4%)

Transport (3.0%)

Business And Industry (2.7%)

Government Administration (2.0%)

Culture eg sports, libraries, museums (1.8%)

Environment (1.7%)

Housing and Utilities eg street lighting (1.6%)

Overseas Aid (1.3%)

UK Contribution to the EU Budget (0.6%)

As for getting any of your contributions back, well... watch out for them flying pigs.

I don't know the figures but it strikes me that 12.8% of the personal tax revenue could be fairly close to the state pension liability. Looks like NI contributions could be out of the equation.

[jpinx]

It'll never happen but it feels good to rant about such duplicity......

[evadgib]

A Solution

WHY WE ARE CAMPAIGNING FOR PARTIAL UPRATING:

There are many ways to end frozen pensions. Traditionally organisations such as the International Consortium of British Pensioners as well as many members of the APPG have campaigned for pension equality. This means that every pensioner should get the pension they are entitled to, regardless of where they live. This is after all the most just solution. Everyone should get the pension they paid for through their National Insurance contributions, and should be uprated in the same way. There is no rational reason why a pensioner who moved to Canada to be with children would have their pension frozen, yet if they moved to the United States would get annual increases.

However, successive governments have refused to act to end the current policy the grounds of cost, fear of legal claims for backpayment and the fact that however strong the moral case, there is no legal obligation on them to do so.

The APPG on Frozen British Pensions recognise that financial times are tough, so we are committed to promoting solutions to the frozen pension policy that are both affordable and deliverable now.

We believe that Partial Uprating offers one such solution.

Continues here:

A Solution to Frozen British Pensions

Edited February 18, 2016 by evadgib

[evadgib]

More from the consortium received today:

Write on! Write on!

You can add to the astounding amount of volunteer effort that is reported in this magazine. To do so, simply keep on writing to your (former) UK MP about pension freezing. Your communications are indeed noticed and there is no doubt that they do indeed have impact. It is worth noting that in this age of electronic inundation, letters sent by regular postal service (with stamps) are most effective. Emails, however, are definitely a lot better than nothing.

A new EDM needs your MP’s support

Please ask your Westminster MP to sign the latest early day motion on frozen pensions; every such EDM goes a long way to keeping the issue in the political limelight. EDM 767, tabled on November 25 and supported by APPG vice chair Ian Blackford, states that “all British pensioners should receive the same state pension regardless of where they live.” http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2015-16/767

Edited February 18, 2016 by evadgib

[evadgib]

The International Consortium of British Pensioners (ICBP)

16 February at 00:48 ·

If we are to continue to fund the parliamentary APPG on frozen pensions for whom we run the secretariat, achieve major articles in newspapers and have the government and opposition listen to us, we NEED financial support. It is not enough for supporters to thank us and tell us what a great job we are doing. If you are not already a member of either CABP (http://www.britishpensions.com/joinrenew/) or BPiA (http://bpia.org.au/index.php/sign-up-or-renew), please consider joining us. It doesn't matter where you live in the world, or if you are a member of another local organization. Only CABP and BPiA are financing the fight for pension parity.You can join CABP online by credit card or PayPal.

Join/Renew

BRITISHPENSIONS.COM

[billd766]

More from the consortium received today:

Write on! Write on!

You can add to the astounding amount of volunteer effort that is reported in this magazine. To do so, simply keep on writing to your (former) UK MP about pension freezing. Your communications are indeed noticed and there is no doubt that they do indeed have impact. It is worth noting that in this age of electronic inundation, letters sent by regular postal service (with stamps) are most effective. Emails, however, are definitely a lot better than nothing.

A new EDM needs your MP’s support

Please ask your Westminster MP to sign the latest early day motion on frozen pensions; every such EDM goes a long way to keeping the issue in the political limelight. EDM 767, tabled on November 25 and supported by APPG vice chair Ian Blackford, states that “all British pensioners should receive the same state pension regardless of where they live.” http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2015-16/767

I opened the EDM 767 post just now and did a copy and paste on an email to my local Tory MP. I have no doubt that if she bothers to reply she will politely decline giving some mealy mouth excuse as this is her first, and hopefully last term as an MP for Taunton Deane.

A useful list of UK MPs email addresses.

http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/

Edited February 19, 2016 by billd766

[sandyf]

More from the consortium received today:

Write on! Write on!

You can add to the astounding amount of volunteer effort that is reported in this magazine. To do so, simply keep on writing to your (former) UK MP about pension freezing. Your communications are indeed noticed and there is no doubt that they do indeed have impact. It is worth noting that in this age of electronic inundation, letters sent by regular postal service (with stamps) are most effective. Emails, however, are definitely a lot better than nothing.

A new EDM needs your MP’s support

Please ask your Westminster MP to sign the latest early day motion on frozen pensions; every such EDM goes a long way to keeping the issue in the political limelight. EDM 767, tabled on November 25 and supported by APPG vice chair Ian Blackford, states that “all British pensioners should receive the same state pension regardless of where they live.” http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2015-16/767

I opened the EDM 767 post just now and did a copy and paste on an email to my local Tory MP. I have no doubt that if she bothers to reply she will politely decline giving some mealy mouth excuse as this is her first, and hopefully last term as an MP for Taunton Deane.

A useful list of UK MPs email addresses.

http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/

Thanks for the link Bill, just sent an email. Not holding my breath on any sort of reply.

Edit. Well apart from the automatic one.

Edited February 19, 2016 by sandyf

[billd766]

More from the consortium received today:

Write on! Write on!

You can add to the astounding amount of volunteer effort that is reported in this magazine. To do so, simply keep on writing to your (former) UK MP about pension freezing. Your communications are indeed noticed and there is no doubt that they do indeed have impact. It is worth noting that in this age of electronic inundation, letters sent by regular postal service (with stamps) are most effective. Emails, however, are definitely a lot better than nothing.

A new EDM needs your MP’s support

Please ask your Westminster MP to sign the latest early day motion on frozen pensions; every such EDM goes a long way to keeping the issue in the political limelight. EDM 767, tabled on November 25 and supported by APPG vice chair Ian Blackford, states that “all British pensioners should receive the same state pension regardless of where they live.” http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2015-16/767

I opened the EDM 767 post just now and did a copy and paste on an email to my local Tory MP. I have no doubt that if she bothers to reply she will politely decline giving some mealy mouth excuse as this is her first, and hopefully last term as an MP for Taunton Deane.

A useful list of UK MPs email addresses.

http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/

Thanks for the link Bill, just sent an email. Not holding my breath on any sort of reply.

Edit. Well apart from the automatic one.

I just had an automated reply accepting my email and reminding me of this

Kindly note the following:

· If you are a constituent please ensure that you have provided your full name and address, including postcode. There is a strict Parliamentary convention that MPs only deal with matters raised by those from their own constituency

· I will answer your email as soon as I am able. All correspondence is dealt with according to the urgency of the matter raised

I resent the email having apologised for omitting my residential address.

[evadgib]

I'll contact mine to let him know that I remain on the electoral register although this time as a proxy voter and to tell him which way i'm taking him

(He was somewhat cockey last year when my ballot papers went AWOL along with everyone elses outside the EU!)

[kingalfred]

So I stopped paying NI ten years ago. I have 30 years contributions for basic pension but is it possible or worthwhile paying now to increase my pension for when 65? I am 55 now.

[sunnyjim5]

So I stopped paying NI ten years ago. I have 30 years contributions for basic pension but is it possible or worthwhile paying now to increase my pension for when 65? I am 55 now.

The only way to find out is to write to the DWP.

If you provide your NI number they will provide you with an illustration of what you may receive and give you information about the possibility of purchasing additional years.

[Jip99]

So I stopped paying NI ten years ago. I have 30 years contributions for basic pension but is it possible or worthwhile paying now to increase my pension for when 65? I am 55 now.

Yes.

I imagine you have been working as a part-time taxi driver so will pay the minimal weekly stamp.

[evadgib]

So I stopped paying NI ten years ago. I have 30 years contributions for basic pension but is it possible or worthwhile paying now to increase my pension for when 65? I am 55 now.

Me too. I was specifically advised to write to HMRC after 06 Apr 16, by which time they were expected to have the necessary details.

[shunter]

O.K folks here is one for us all, well we who are U.K. state pensioners anyway.

PetitionStop UK Government and Departments from labeling "State Pension" as benefits!

As State Pension has usually been contributed to over many years, it seems wrong to title it as a "benefit", and should revert back to what it has always been called, i.e. State Pension

Please sign.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/121267

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

O.K folks here is one for us all, well we who are U.K. state pensioners anyway. PetitionStop UK Government and Departments from labeling "State Pension" as benefits!

As State Pension has usually been contributed to over many years, it seems wrong to title it as a "benefit", and should revert back to what it has always been called, i.e. State Pension

Please sign.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/121267

I agree with the sentiment but the wording is pitiful!

[Expattaff1308]

Would like to think things have moved on from here but am not sure...http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-20044862

Edited February 20, 2016 by Expattaff1308

[transam]

Would like to think things have moved on from here but am not sure...http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-20044862

Says the "Lord" with a huge pension and cash in the bank....

[jpinx]

O.K folks here is one for us all, well we who are U.K. state pensioners anyway. PetitionStop UK Government and Departments from labeling "State Pension" as benefits!

As State Pension has usually been contributed to over many years, it seems wrong to title it as a "benefit", and should revert back to what it has always been called, i.e. State Pension

Please sign.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/121267

I agree with the sentiment but the wording is pitiful!

Was this the wording ... seriously???

"

Petition Stop UK Government and Departments from labeling "State Pension" as benefits!

As State Pension has usually been contributed to over many years, it seems wrong to title it as a "benefit", and should revert back to what it has always been called, i.e. State Pension

▼More details

I strongly object to the inference that I receive a "benefit", when I paid into the system for well over 40 years!!

[jpinx]

Would like to think things have moved on from here but am not sure...http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-20044862

What a jerk !!! If he had suggested that those who have excess income should contribute towards a topping-up of basic pensions - that might have been acceptable.......

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

Would like to think things have moved on from here but am not sure...http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-20044862

What a jerk !!! If he had suggested that those who have excess income should contribute towards a topping-up of basic pensions - that might have been acceptable.......

Worry not, his photograph suggests he might be about to kill himself !

[jpinx]

Would like to think things have moved on from here but am not sure...http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-20044862

What a jerk !!! If he had suggested that those who have excess income should contribute towards a topping-up of basic pensions - that might have been acceptable.......

Worry not, his photograph suggests he might be about to kill himself !

I don't think I want to look :S Small consolation anyway, since that style of thinking is prevalent in "higher society" -- they really have no idea of what a normal life is like.

[transam]

Of course our pension is not a benefit...It is part of our national insurance payments, which includes the NHS.

NHS takes care of us with no questions...(forget the expat thing for a mo)....We paid in, we want what we paid in for..

Pisses me off when foreign folk 'walk' into the UK that paid nothing into the UK but get taken care of BETTER than UK natives....UK natives KNOW this is happening but can't talk about it because of newish UK laws that prohibit it. Laws made by hi-so, high paid, high paid pension folk with no thought for those who worked and PAID to make the UK what it is FINANCIALLY today... Folk don't even have to THINK about why half the planet are trying to creep into the UK........

[jpinx]

Of course our pension is not a benefit...It is part of our national insurance payments, which includes the NHS.

NHS takes care of us with no questions...(forget the expat thing for a mo)....We paid in, we want what we paid in for..

Pisses me off when foreign folk 'walk' into the UK that paid nothing into the UK but get taken care of BETTER than UK natives....UK natives KNOW this is happening but can't talk about it because of newish UK laws that prohibit it. Laws made by hi-so, high paid, high paid pension folk with no thought for those who worked and PAID to make the UK what it is FINANCIALLY today... Folk don't even have to THINK about why half the planet are trying to creep into the UK........

Nothing like a good rant to get the weekend off to a start

[sandyf]

Of course our pension is not a benefit...It is part of our national insurance payments, which includes the NHS.

We have all been conned.

More important are the total government liabilities of £5 trillion. These break down as follows:

• Government employee pensions: £1.2 trillion (unfunded: £0.9 trillion; funded: £0.3 trillion)
• State pensions: £3.8 trillion (all unfunded)

The difference between the funded and unfunded liabilities is very significant. Funded liabilities refer to pension schemes where the money that people pay in as contributions is invested in a fund that floats on the financial markets, so that enough money to pay the pensions builds up over time.

Unfunded schemes work in a different way; with these, the money people pay in is paid out again straightaway on current pensioners, with any difference between incomings and outgoings being met through general taxation. In practice, they are a mechanism for transferring money directly between current workers and those who are in retirement.

Of the government’s liabilities, the most daunting is the £3.8 trillion that will have to be spent on state pensions, which is mostly accounted for the Basic State Pension (BSP). These work on an unfunded system, with only a very weak relationship between the amount of money an individual has paid in through their National Insurance contributions and the benefits they are eligible to receive.

The liability for state pensions is equal to 263% of Britain’s total GDP, which is actually slightly below the EU-level average of 278%. The scale of state pension liabilities is rather surprising given that Britain has a notoriously ungenerous state pension, a fact which will restrict the government’s political room for manoeuvre if they need to make changes to it in the future.

http://www.if.org.uk/archives/2031/ons-reveals-full-uk-pension-liabilities

[jpinx]

Of course our pension is not a benefit...It is part of our national insurance payments, which includes the NHS.

We have all been conned.

More important are the total government liabilities of £5 trillion. These break down as follows:

• Government employee pensions: £1.2 trillion (unfunded: £0.9 trillion; funded: £0.3 trillion)
• State pensions: £3.8 trillion (all unfunded)

The difference between the funded and unfunded liabilities is very significant. Funded liabilities refer to pension schemes where the money that people pay in as contributions is invested in a fund that floats on the financial markets, so that enough money to pay the pensions builds up over time.

Unfunded schemes work in a different way; with these, the money people pay in is paid out again straightaway on current pensioners, with any difference between incomings and outgoings being met through general taxation. In practice, they are a mechanism for transferring money directly between current workers and those who are in retirement.

Of the government’s liabilities, the most daunting is the £3.8 trillion that will have to be spent on state pensions, which is mostly accounted for the Basic State Pension (BSP). These work on an unfunded system, with only a very weak relationship between the amount of money an individual has paid in through their National Insurance contributions and the benefits they are eligible to receive.

The liability for state pensions is equal to 263% of Britain’s total GDP, which is actually slightly below the EU-level average of 278%. The scale of state pension liabilities is rather surprising given that Britain has a notoriously ungenerous state pension, a fact which will restrict the government’s political room for manoeuvre if they need to make changes to it in the future.

http://www.if.org.uk/archives/2031/ons-reveals-full-uk-pension-liabilities

I've been saying for years that the State Pension scheme is just a Ponzi scheme and will collapse eventually - it's only a question of "when". If any private pension company tried to do this they'd be locked up !

BTW - I am persistently reporting offtopic postings about currency rates, etc - go and start your own thread

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed, this is not about what could happen if the UK left the EU.

[nong38]

New Zealand had the same problem a few years ago whereby todays workers paid for the current pensioners. That is not the case today. Somewhere along the line those that are paying for someone elses pension will also have to fund their own, in effect paying twice. There needs to a position where you fund your own pension then its up to you to make the decision how much and when. We have avoided it but its going to happen, the Government will not be able to afford it in future generations, even with our stingy rates. In the not to far distant future some one is going to get bad news, all workers now should make their own arrangements and anything the state can provide should be seen as a bonus.

[jpinx]

Wasn't there was a definitive move towards private pensions some years ago? But it never allowed you to opt out of the basic state pension and the associated contributions --- and that is the nub of the problem. If the State pensions were handed over tomorrow, the government would be bankrupt. They need the contributions which are "meant" to be for Pensions, but actually are used for lots of other things as well. There's no shortage of number-cunchers who have shown how that would play out, and even the most optimistic presents a bleak picture for HMG, but quite a rosey picture for pensioners. Even a slow change-over is going to be painful, if the will was ever there to actually do it -- which is extremely doubtful.

Edit to add --

Look at the headaches in Greece where the Ponzi scheme is collapsing - mainly due to the ridiculously high pensions, but it's a good example of how it can all go badly wrong, even if it was in the "trusted" hands of their government.

Edited February 20, 2016 by jpinx