Late-Year Teenagers & Those In Their 20'S : What Are They Doing?

[KarenBravo]

Depends on how you define a parent's role.

My parents always made it quite plain that though they loved me, when I finished school, I was out of the house and was to stand on my own two feet.

They saw preparing me to handle the world on my own was their primary responsibility.

Seems yours is different. If you don't teach your children to go out in the world and make a buck, but, just spend your money having a wonderful life, how do you expect them to teach their own children? I don't think spoiling children does them any favours in the long run.

If you're willing to have them spend your money on having fun, then, just spend the money on giving them a Western education. That is something you owe them. Hopefully, they can then earn their own money, which is far more satisfying than being given it.

[HongKongPhooey]

I understand what you're saying, but I believe a balance can be struck. This whole notion that if you haven't sweat blood then you haven't done a decent days work and haven't earned the money, is lost on me. It just seems like a way people with crappy jobs make themselves feel better about it. I have a lot of respect for people who graft to make ends meet but to insinuate it's a prerequisite to being a well balanced,happy person is nonsense.

I believe you can spoil children without them being spoilt. I came from a poor family but you would think my parents were millionaires when it came to Christmas and Birthdays etc. What parent wants to deprive their children just because it's the only way they can instil good ethics in to them. A tight one would be my answer. My parents were able to do both, spoil me and teach me to stand on my own two feet. If you can't manage that then I think you are failing as a parent.

Obviously if the household isn't well off then the kids need to be out the door when they finish their education to help pay their way, needs must and all that, but if their financial input isn't required, then asking for it just because it's the only way you know to teach them to stand on their own two feet, seems a bit old fashioned to me. A throwback to the days were a coal miner would teach his son that he had to be a coal miner because working your fingers to the bone is what life's about.

To answer your question, I think my kids will teach their kids to be polite, respectful, decent people, the same way I taught them, and I hope that at the same time they make sure they have enough money in the bank to allow them to live their life to the full, and enjoy every minute of it.

I personally don't see my kids character, morals, or ethics being harmed in any way by being raised on Phuket. I have other concerns but not those.

[LivinLOS]

Although I agree with your previous summary, I don't agree with you or 'LivinLOS' on this matter. Yes you need to teach your kids the value of money but I don't believe you need to teach them that making money is the bee all and end all, and the only road to happiness.

I'll ask you (especially 'LivinLOS') a simple question. What would you rather have kids who work hard but are obnoxious, arrogant, full of themself <deleted>, or a lovely kid with decent morals and character that would rather go off travelling the world than to work a 9-5? There's more to life than money and success. I would take a happy kid with a great character and personality all day long.

Of course.. And I am not saying that money or schooling is the b all and end all of a young persons life.. Far from it, more that theres a highly valuable school of hard knocks, which is very hard to replicate in asia, no matter the wealth of the parent.

But I do think having a strong work ethic, is a desirable character trait.. I think that having a decent work ethic, and a mind that can put together deals, a mind that looks for opportunity, a set of skills that enable that, reading people, detecting honesty and deceit, projecting confidence, are all skills that are highly valuable and skills I think are much much harder to have a child learn, while they are essentially an entitled (rich) outsider within Thai society. Add in the living at home with Daddy on a handout pocket money allowance and it gets worse.

Those skills enable a young person to gain independence, to step out of their fathers shadow, to have a pride of accomplishment, and to achieve a life, on their own two feet out there in the world. The hardship or working is not the goal, its the independence, self reliance, and self confidence they bring with them which is the goal.

Edited March 22, 2012 by LivinLOS

[NamKangMan]

See above post. BIS has been opened since 1996. A graduate at 18 years of age in 1996 would be 34 years of age now but nowhere to be seen working on Phuket.

If the school opened in 1996 then they couldn't possibly have any 18 year old graduates the same year!! So much has changed on the island in the last 15 years that maybe there was less for the families to hang around for. There would only have been a fraction of the amount of expats on the island then than there is now, so I really don't think it's a valid point. Phuket has evolved immensely and it will continue to do so, so dwelling on how things were and where people are now from 15 years ago is a waste of time.

It seems to me 'NMK' that you have pretty much had a turn around in your opinion. You started off by saying that raising teenagers in Phuket was a no go, now you are saying that as long as they study/work in the West then it's all fine. So we are pretty much in perfect agreement.

I agree with livinLOS that it is very important to instill a work-ethic. This is something that is being forgotten about everywhere.

I started working at six years old doing the washing-up. I hated it to start, but, then got a paper-round, milk-round and on it went. It instilled a respect for money and how it is earned and also made me a saver.

Too many kids are materialistic and expect their parents to buy everything they want. This is a particular weakness with Thai mothers.

Although I agree with your previous summary, I don't agree with you or 'LivinLOS' on this matter. Yes you need to teach your kids the value of money but I don't believe you need to teach them that making money is the bee all and end all, and the only road to happiness.

I also have no problem with my kids living on my money for as long as they want to, assuming I can afford it and obviously I wouldn't be supporting them to piss their lives away or have a drug habit. But if my kids want to use my money to enjoy their lives, by being able to travel the world, take part in any sport or hobby they wish to, or follow a passion, then I don't have a problem. If my kids want to spend their lives doing enjoyable, healthy things then work and a work ethic can go whistle as far as I'm concerned. Life's way too short to work for a living unless you have to, or you are lucky enough to be in the tiny minority of people that have jobs they love doing, vocations as it were.

To automatically assume kids that don't work but have wealthy parents are spoilt brats is wrong. If they have been raised poorly then they may be brats but not just because they were born in to wealth.

I'll ask you (especially 'LivinLOS') a simple question. What would you rather have kids who work hard but are obnoxious, arrogant, full of themself <deleted>, or a lovely kid with decent morals and character that would rather go off travelling the world than to work a 9-5? There's more to life than money and success. I would take a happy kid with a great character and personality all day long.

That doesn't mean to say of course that you don't provide them with all the opportunities they need to provide for themselves if they want, but to say you can't carry your kids financially without ruining them I believe is wrong. Life is for living. The more time you need to spend finding money to pay the bills, the less time you have to enjoy it. It will give me great satisfaction to help my kids have all the time they can to enjoy their lives. I don't understand the desire to watch your kids struggle in an attempt to give them a good character, when you can raise them to have a good character and have money at the same time.

I'm not sure where you get my "turn around in opinion." All of my posts have simply stated the kid/s MUST go to an accredited international school here and, when they finish school, MUST go to an accredited international university here, or MUST go and earn a trade qualification in the west. Anything other than these two options, and your kid is not academically or trade recognised in the west, and not on a very good salary, by western standards, which severly limits their options.

Like KB says, "What's so complicated?"

I gather by your post, that if your kid/s do not want an occupation that involves a university degree, and you would like to keep the family unit together, than you will be moving back to the UK in the future, and staying for around 4 years, so they can gain a trade qualification.

If we take another example of a trade qualification here, a chef, there are farang chefs working here and making a good salary, even by western standards. If your son/daughter wanted to be a chef, they would have to be trained overseas, gain experience overseas and then apply for the position back here. The big hotel chains will accept nothing less, and certainly no one "coming through" the Thai system.

If you notice, I have not really posted about being a good parent or a bad parent. Who drops their kid to school with a Chaing in hand or the projected crime and violence on the island in 10 to 15 years time. I have only posted on giving your kid/s a western accredited education or trade qualification in order to give them the option of earning a western salary, as opposed to living and working here and getting paid nothing.

[NamKangMan]

See above post. BIS has been opened since 1996. A graduate at 18 years of age in 1996 would be 34 years of age now but nowhere to be seen working on Phuket.

If the school opened in 1996 then they couldn't possibly have any 18 year old graduates the same year!! So much has changed on the island in the last 15 years that maybe there was less for the families to hang around for. There would only have been a fraction of the amount of expats on the island then than there is now, so I really don't think it's a valid point. Phuket has evolved immensely and it will continue to do so, so dwelling on how things were and where people are now from 15 years ago is a waste of time.

It seems to me 'NMK' that you have pretty much had a turn around in your opinion. You started off by saying that raising teenagers in Phuket was a no go, now you are saying that as long as they study/work in the West then it's all fine. So we are pretty much in perfect agreement.

I agree with livinLOS that it is very important to instill a work-ethic. This is something that is being forgotten about everywhere.

I started working at six years old doing the washing-up. I hated it to start, but, then got a paper-round, milk-round and on it went. It instilled a respect for money and how it is earned and also made me a saver.

Too many kids are materialistic and expect their parents to buy everything they want. This is a particular weakness with Thai mothers.

Although I agree with your previous summary, I don't agree with you or 'LivinLOS' on this matter. Yes you need to teach your kids the value of money but I don't believe you need to teach them that making money is the bee all and end all, and the only road to happiness.

I also have no problem with my kids living on my money for as long as they want to, assuming I can afford it and obviously I wouldn't be supporting them to piss their lives away or have a drug habit. But if my kids want to use my money to enjoy their lives, by being able to travel the world, take part in any sport or hobby they wish to, or follow a passion, then I don't have a problem. If my kids want to spend their lives doing enjoyable, healthy things then work and a work ethic can go whistle as far as I'm concerned. Life's way too short to work for a living unless you have to, or you are lucky enough to be in the tiny minority of people that have jobs they love doing, vocations as it were.

To automatically assume kids that don't work but have wealthy parents are spoilt brats is wrong. If they have been raised poorly then they may be brats but not just because they were born in to wealth.

I'll ask you (especially 'LivinLOS') a simple question. What would you rather have kids who work hard but are obnoxious, arrogant, full of themself <deleted>, or a lovely kid with decent morals and character that would rather go off travelling the world than to work a 9-5? There's more to life than money and success. I would take a happy kid with a great character and personality all day long.

That doesn't mean to say of course that you don't provide them with all the opportunities they need to provide for themselves if they want, but to say you can't carry your kids financially without ruining them I believe is wrong. Life is for living. The more time you need to spend finding money to pay the bills, the less time you have to enjoy it. It will give me great satisfaction to help my kids have all the time they can to enjoy their lives. I don't understand the desire to watch your kids struggle in an attempt to give them a good character, when you can raise them to have a good character and have money at the same time.

Wouldn't the kid have to work hard, on a western salary, to be able to afford to travel the world, or is Daddy going to pay for that???? :)

Earning 300 baht a day, because you were educated at a Thai school, or gained a Thai trade qualification, and you are living and working in Thailand, means you may be able to afford to travel to Cambodia, for a week. :)

[Peterocket]

If we take another example of a trade qualification here, a chef, there are farang chefs working here and making a good salary, even by western standards. If your son/daughter wanted to be a chef, they would have to be trained overseas, gain experience overseas and then apply for the position back here. The big hotel chains will accept nothing less, and certainly no one "coming through" the Thai system.

That isn't true, a lot of the major hotels are happy to have local head chefs, I know of 3 off the top of my head within 3km's of where I live.

[NamKangMan]

@ Peterrocket

Were they trained overseas, or by a foreigner, or trained here, on a som tam kart.

In either case, you will find they are answerable to The Head of Food and Beverage - a foreigner, in many cases a qualified chef, who was trained and gained experience, in the west.

[HongKongPhooey]

I'm not sure where you get my "turn around in opinion." All of my posts have simply stated the kid/s MUST go to an accredited international school here and, when they finish school, MUST go to an accredited international university here, or MUST go and earn a trade qualification in the west. Anything other than these two options, and your kid is not academically or trade recognised in the west, and not on a very good salary, by western standards, which severly limits their options.

And seeing as I have said that all those things will be available to them, then we are agreeing that raising kids in Phuket isn't a problem aren't we. You are giving a list of prerequisites that make raising kids on Phuket possible. All those things are easily available, ergo you are agreeing that raising kids in Phuket isn't a problem.

I gather by your post, that if your kid/s do not want an occupation that involves a university degree, and you would like to keep the family unit together, than you will be moving back to the UK in the future, and staying for around 4 years, so they can gain a trade qualification.

I have to question weather you even read these threads before you reply? I have answered that question at least 4 times, won't bother doing it again.

Wouldn't the kid have to work hard, on a western salary, to be able to afford to travel the world, or is Daddy going to pay for that????

Again it's like Groundhog day with you, we've covered that several times already. My kids will have every opportunity to work hard and earn a Western salary if they so desire. I am also perfectly open to paying for them to travel the world myself if I can afford to do so and things work out that way.

READ the posts before you reply NKM! otherwise we go around in circles!

[HongKongPhooey]

. Far from it, more that theres a highly valuable school of hard knocks, which is very hard to replicate in asia, no matter the wealth of the parent.

We will have to agree to disagree. Just like I have no desire to see my kids struggle financially to earn a good character, I do not believe they need any hard knocks either!

To me you sound like the stereo typical person who had a rough start in life and then came good. That is to be applauded, but for you to now believe that is the only way for things to happen is crazy. You are seeing the world through your own experiences which is only a minute fraction of the different ways families are and the way kids are raised.

I don't think I would be in the minority in not wanting to bestow a life of hard knocks on to my children. It may have worked for you but don't assume your kids will enjoy or benefit from it the same way you did. Like I said before, your kids will not be mini versions of you.

You didn't answer the question. Do you have kids 'LivinLOS'? Not that it means you can't have an opinion but it undoubtedly makes a difference. I don't believe anybody can understand fully what it is like to be a parent until they are one.

[NamKangMan]

I'm not sure where you get my "turn around in opinion." All of my posts have simply stated the kid/s MUST go to an accredited international school here and, when they finish school, MUST go to an accredited international university here, or MUST go and earn a trade qualification in the west. Anything other than these two options, and your kid is not academically or trade recognised in the west, and not on a very good salary, by western standards, which severly limits their options.

And seeing as I have said that all those things will be available to them, then we are agreeing that raising kids in Phuket isn't a problem aren't we. You are giving a list of prerequisites that make raising kids on Phuket possible. All those things are easily available, ergo you are agreeing that raising kids in Phuket isn't a problem.

I gather by your post, that if your kid/s do not want an occupation that involves a university degree, and you would like to keep the family unit together, than you will be moving back to the UK in the future, and staying for around 4 years, so they can gain a trade qualification.

I have to question weather you even read these threads before you reply? I have answered that question at least 4 times, won't bother doing it again.

Wouldn't the kid have to work hard, on a western salary, to be able to afford to travel the world, or is Daddy going to pay for that????

Again it's like Groundhog day with you, we've covered that several times already. My kids will have every opportunity to work hard and earn a Western salary if they so desire. I am also perfectly open to paying for them to travel the world myself if I can afford to do so and things work out that way.

READ the posts before you reply NKM! otherwise we go around in circles!

Why don't you simply pick one of the six options that best describes the wishes you have for your kids from the first post I made on this thread?

[HongKongPhooey]

Why don't you simply pick one of the six options that best describes the wishes you have for your kids from the first post I made on this thread?

What these six options?

1) will they be born, raised, educated, live, work and die in Thailand?

2) will they be born, raised, educated in Thailand until 18 then go to a uni in the west and then live and work in your home country?

3) will they be born, raised, educated in Thailand until 18 then go to a uni in the west and then come back to Thailand to live and work?

4) will they be born, raised, educated in Thailand until 18 and then you will set them up in a business?

5) Will you move back to your home country if/when they go to uni there?

6) after they finish uni, if they decide to live and work in your home country, will you stay there or come back to Phuket/Thailand.

I'll tell you why 'NKM' because my time machine is on the blink. As soon as I get it up and running I'll let you know.

You are being deliberately obtuse. Everything I have said on this and the other thread I have repeated several times to the point of boring myself silly. God knows what it's done to everybody else!

I aim to give my kids the opportunity to be able to do ALL of those six options, or whichever one, two or more suit them at the time. Why have you limited the choice to only six options? Who's to say they won't want to do a mixture of numbers 2, 3 & 4 at different times in their life? Not only are you asking people to pick an option which is impossible to do without seeing in to the future, you are failing to comprehend that there is no need to pick one because they can ALL be done, both individually or collectively. As often is the case you are choosing to see problems where there aren't any.

I like a good discussion as much as the next man 'NKM', but this time I think you are simply arguing for the sake of it. The fact you don't even have 50/50 kids so have no idea what that entails, strengthens my theory.

[LivinLOS]

. Far from it, more that theres a highly valuable school of hard knocks, which is very hard to replicate in asia, no matter the wealth of the parent.

We will have to agree to disagree. Just like I have no desire to see my kids struggle financially to earn a good character, I do not believe they need any hard knocks either!

To me you sound like the stereo typical person who had a rough start in life and then came good. That is to be applauded, but for you to now believe that is the only way for things to happen is crazy. You are seeing the world through your own experiences which is only a minute fraction of the different ways families are and the way kids are raised.

I don't think I would be in the minority in not wanting to bestow a life of hard knocks on to my children. It may have worked for you but don't assume your kids will enjoy or benefit from it the same way you did. Like I said before, your kids will not be mini versions of you.

You didn't answer the question. Do you have kids 'LivinLOS'? Not that it means you can't have an opinion but it undoubtedly makes a difference. I don't believe anybody can understand fully what it is like to be a parent until they are one.

Hard knocks was simply a phrase.. I was going to use 'street university' but also thought that implied drug sales and would read wrong. What I am trying to say and failing it seems. Is there are certain character traits, which are highly advantageous for a young person to build. And those character traits are very hard, if not outright impossible, to create within an environment where they will constantly be an outsider, a wealthy outsider living by the largess and handouts from their father, in Thai society.

I have known a good few successful entrepreneurs in my life, people who have gained not just material success in money (any lucky fool can win the lottery) but men who had perceived a need or created something, worked to achieve it, reaped the benefits of that work, and lived life to the full, very often these were serial entrepreneurs of serial successes, which indicates to me that it was no mere luck that got them there. The kind of fun guys who owned and flew planes, or jetted around the world on exciting adventures, people who really lived lives less ordinary. Every one of these guys shared common traits, aspects of body language and self confidence, of independent thought and an ability to challenge status quo. They have enough self belief to say they can achieve what others cannot, and can rise to a challenge. None of these highly successful and interesting men I can think of were highly formally educated, all where deal makers, people readers, risk takers. They all in one form or another were leaders of others. They all were able to talk to (as Kipling put it) kings, yet never lose the common touch, they could shake hands and talk openly to the roughest roughneck site worker, and just as easily converse and relate to the minister who controlled the project.

So yes, I do think that some mild adversity when young is a good thing, overcoming adversity is rising to a challenge, without having done so your fear of challenges and adversity becomes greater. A few good challenges beaten when young gives confidence, shows you when to battle and struggle, and also perhaps when to fold and regroup. It teaches risk assessment, without risk, without failure, without success, however small these things may seem later when your no longer a teenager, your without valuable experiences that shape our personalities later in life. I do not see how they learn those vital skills while 'under their loving parents wing' however nice that must feel for the parent to provide it.

I personally would not want a son of mine to be a product of an entitled 'superior' set with many of the attitudes that come with that. I would need them to know and understand honesty and 'the truth' as an absolute concept, not a grey area to be danced around in games of saving face. I would not want a child of mine to constantly assess peers as pi and nong, as superior and inferior, those are concepts I dont think are healthy to entertain or encourage in a modern world. Understand perhaps yes, practice no.

Lastly, and this one is a bit of a greyer area in what gets parental approval, but I cant not mention it, is who their peers are and who they socialize with outside of what a parent wants. The youth after dark if you will. We as young adults go out, learn to drink, go to clubs when we are not old enough, see bands or DJs, miss behave perhaps but in small but important ways. We have peers who we do this with, all of a similar age, of a similar social makeup, etc etc etc.. Where and what are these mid teen young adults doing, thats any good, that has upsides ?? If your really minted I guess they could be hanging with the bangkok faux hi-so set, which my limited experiences of are not overly favorable. If your talking about where young Thais go on Phuket, nightclubs in Phuket town, bike gangs, yaba use, I dont see many good examples. The other side (and this is what my friends young sons have) is that they then hang out in expat bars, with guys 50 year old, with bar girls as their age peers and guys older than their father as their drinking mates. Now I am all for young adults mixing beyond their age group, I would say to mix with other nationalities, ages, races, etc is all worth doing, but the key here is mix, they have few or no peers their age only the old retiree expats to hang with. Again not a social life that I think is good for them.

So all these reasons come into the mix, a lack of social equals, an education system where to get them a decent education, you have to put them in social groups with the future little generals of Thailand, a social system that encourages deceit in the pursuit of saving face. A social system of superior and inferior social relationships and rarely a view that 'all men are created equal'. A lack of ability to step out of their fathers shadow, to gain independence, to grow self confidence (its not about the money in work, its about working for a goal, attaining the small freedoms that power of money, your own self created money, achieves). I would expect an expats kid to have a decent worldview, weltanschauung, just given his position as a semi outside in a country that can be quite xenophobic at times, but I would worry as to how much that attitude and Thailand no 1 would rub off and influence a developing personality.

Lots and lots of reasons, all sort of interlinked and interlocking, that its hard to say it reason X or reason Y, theres an alphabet soup of them that make me feel a young adult would have a better start in a different social setting. Especially important between say 14-15 to 21-25.

[NamKangMan]

Why don't you simply pick one of the six options that best describes the wishes you have for your kids from the first post I made on this thread?

What these six options?

1) will they be born, raised, educated, live, work and die in Thailand?

2) will they be born, raised, educated in Thailand until 18 then go to a uni in the west and then live and work in your home country?

3) will they be born, raised, educated in Thailand until 18 then go to a uni in the west and then come back to Thailand to live and work?

4) will they be born, raised, educated in Thailand until 18 and then you will set them up in a business?

5) Will you move back to your home country if/when they go to uni there?

6) after they finish uni, if they decide to live and work in your home country, will you stay there or come back to Phuket/Thailand.

I'll tell you why 'NKM' because my time machine is on the blink. As soon as I get it up and running I'll let you know.

You are being deliberately obtuse. Everything I have said on this and the other thread I have repeated several times to the point of boring myself silly. God knows what it's done to everybody else!

I aim to give my kids the opportunity to be able to do ALL of those six options, or whichever one, two or more suit them at the time. Why have you limited the choice to only six options? Who's to say they won't want to do a mixture of numbers 2, 3 & 4 at different times in their life? Not only are you asking people to pick an option which is impossible to do without seeing in to the future, you are failing to comprehend that there is no need to pick one because they can ALL be done, both individually or collectively. As often is the case you are choosing to see problems where there aren't any.

I like a good discussion as much as the next man 'NKM', but this time I think you are simply arguing for the sake of it. The fact you don't even have 50/50 kids so have no idea what that entails, strengthens my theory.

Come on HKP, it's not that hard. You don't need a "time machine." Many here know, right here and now - at this point in time, if they will be able to afford an international school, then an international university, or afford to send their kid/s back home to gain a proper trade qualification. Or, simply move back home when their kid/s are at school age, or university age. For many, the cost is the barrier. For some others, age is an issue. In all probability, they will not be alive to see their kid hit the teenage years. I don't want to know your personal finances, or your age. Just pick one or two of the scenarios and even expand on it a little, if you like. For me, option No. 1 would be unacceptable if I have had a 50/50 kid here, but there are many living here raising kids under option No. 1. It's not rocket science HKP.

[HongKongPhooey]

Just pick one or two of the scenarios and even expand on it a little, if you like. For me, option No. 1 would be unacceptable if I have had a 50/50 kid here, but there are many living here raising kids under option No. 1. It's not rocket science HKP.

I have picked already. I have told you that I will be able to provide any of those six options. Anybody that thinks they know their kid is going to want (or be intelligent enough for that matter), to go to university (in the same way 'LivinLOS' thinks he knows his kids will want to be entrepreneurs ) when they are 4 years old, is deluded. It is impossible to know how are kids will turn out, all we can do is give them every option we possibly can.

You are saying that option number one is unacceptable. I think you have got that wrong. I would say it would be unfortunate if number one was the only option offered to kids and I would never allow that to happen myself. BUT if the kids had all the other 5 options as well but they ended up doing number one because it's what suited them and what has made them happy then who are you to tell them they've done something wrong?

There is a multitude of way kids can grow up and people who think they have the route their kids are going to take through life all mapped out are in for a few surprises! All you can do is make sure you give them all the opportunities they could possible want or need.

I agree with you that parents only providing option number one, because to do otherwise would mean making sacrifices and having to live back in their own country, are being selfish and bad parents. I have said as much many times.

Why are you finding it so hard to concede that if a parent can provide ALL of those 6 options depending on what one is appropriate at the time then there isn't a problem? Why are you also overlooking the fact that not everybody falls in to 6 basic options? My kids may want to study in the UK then come back and work in Thailand for a few years, then go and work in Europe for a while and then come back and start a business in Chiang Mai. That's at least 3 of your options and another thrown in for good measure!

[LivinLOS]

in the same way 'LivinLOS' thinks he knows his kids will want to be entrepreneurs

Its not about them being entrepreneurs (tho in an age of ever increasing job mobility and decreasing job security, I would suggest controlling your own destiny over trusting an 'employer' and 'pension') its about giving them the skills and tools to be fully rounded individuals. The skills and tools which make some men successful while others are not.

All you can do is make sure you give them all the opportunities they could possible want or need.

And I personally, dont think you can provide for them many experiences (which will lead to the tools for opportunities) such being an equal in a society of their peers, readily as an expats child in asia. I simply dont see how thats possible to the same level ?? During that age band, they pretty much need to be in a different society to get the best start in those formative years.

[NamKangMan]

Just pick one or two of the scenarios and even expand on it a little, if you like. For me, option No. 1 would be unacceptable if I have had a 50/50 kid here, but there are many living here raising kids under option No. 1. It's not rocket science HKP.

I have picked already. I have told you that I will be able to provide any of those six options. Anybody that thinks they know their kid is going to want (or be intelligent enough for that matter), to go to university (in the same way 'LivinLOS' thinks he knows his kids will want to be entrepreneurs ) when they are 4 years old, is deluded. It is impossible to know how are kids will turn out, all we can do is give them every option we possibly can.

You are saying that option number one is unacceptable. I think you have got that wrong. I would say it would be unfortunate if number one was the only option offered to kids and I would never allow that to happen myself. BUT if the kids had all the other 5 options as well but they ended up doing number one because it's what suited them and what has made them happy then who are you to tell them they've done something wrong?

There is a multitude of way kids can grow up and people who think they have the route their kids are going to take through life all mapped out are in for a few surprises! All you can do is make sure you give them all the opportunities they could possible want or need.

I agree with you that parents only providing option number one, because to do otherwise would mean making sacrifices and having to live back in their own country, are being selfish and bad parents. I have said as much many times.

Why are you finding it so hard to concede that if a parent can provide ALL of those 6 options depending on what one is appropriate at the time then there isn't a problem? Why are you also overlooking the fact that not everybody falls in to 6 basic options? My kids may want to study in the UK then come back and work in Thailand for a few years, then go and work in Europe for a while and then come back and start a business in Chiang Mai. That's at least 3 of your options and another thrown in for good measure!

A good post HKP.

I think option No. 1 is unacceptable to me because it's a 300 baht a day wage, for the rest of their working lives. If I was to see my kid surfing all day and living on just a few baht and being a lazy bastard, I would have a problem with that.

It's great that you can provide for all the options I mentioned. You are more fortunate, and so are your children, than many on the island.

You originally questioned "crime and violence in 10 to 15 years time." If, and in my opinion, Phuket is going down the path to becoming another Pattaya, will you continue to live here and raise your kids here. If crime and violence (drugs, murders, assaults, prostitution etc etc) are out of control here, in the future, what is your "Plan B?" Or should I say, "Where is your Plan B for your family?" Have you even considered one, or is Phuket the be all and end all?

[HongKongPhooey]

The skills and tools which make some men successful while others are not.

That's just it 'Some men'. You seem to be implying that the way things are in the UK is both guaranteed and the only way for kids to grow up and be successful. I think you have very narrow vision on this topic. Have you been to the UK recently? I think you are overrestimating exactly how decent and educated the average teenager is these days. You are hand picking the good bits from one side of the world and the bad bits from the other to strengthen your argument. You can't then apply that theory to everybody else's lives and family units.

I have always found it strange how people are so eager to marry a Thai person but then immediately want to point out the failings of their culture as you just did. When we are in the UK my 4 year old for example calls the seven year old kids of my wife's friends Pee. What's so terrible about that? Will I teach them to respect people just because they are older, regardless of anything else, obviously not, but teaching them to respect their elders isn't a bad thing. It's something that is all but disappeared in the West, and is a perfect example how combining and embracing both cultures is a positive thing.

I have always said that my kids will spend a lot of time in Europe as well as they grow up, so they will have all the experiences kids who grow up in the UK have as well but a whole lot more on top. You are always quick to point out the good things about growing up in the UK and the bad about Thailand, but you never seem able to acknowledge that both have plenty of the opposite as well, hence why I accuse you of having a narrow perspective of the topic.

And I personally, dont think you can provide for them many experiences (which will lead to the tools for opportunities) such being an equal in a society of their peers, readily as an expats child in asia. I simply dont see how thats possible to the same level ?? During that age band, they pretty much need to be in a different society to get the best start in those formative years.

They are amongst their peers! Other expat kids are their peers. They may be different peer group to the local Thai kids but so what. That's exactly the same in the UK. Private school kids will have their peer groups the same as the local comprehensive kids will and the local gang of gypsies living in the field do as well. I don't see the relevance.

You never answered my question so I will assume you don't have kids let alone 50/50 kids. I would strongly recommend that people thought twice about having kids with a Thai woman when they have such disdain for almost everything Thai. That I believe would be an unhealthy, unbalanced way to raise a 50/50 child.

[HongKongPhooey]

A good post HKP.

I think option No. 1 is unacceptable to me because it's a 300 baht a day wage, for the rest of their working lives. If I was to see my kid surfing all day and living on just a few baht and being a lazy bastard, I would have a problem with that.

It's great that you can provide for all the options I mentioned. You are more fortunate, and so are your children, than many on the island.

You originally questioned "crime and violence in 10 to 15 years time." If, and in my opinion, Phuket is going down the path to becoming another Pattaya, will you continue to live here and raise your kids here. If crime and violence (drugs, murders, assaults, prostitution etc etc) are out of control here, in the future, what is your "Plan B?" Or should I say, "Where is your Plan B for your family?" Have you even considered one, or is Phuket the be all and end all?

You have complemented my post and quickly changed the topic. I guess that's as close as I'm going to get to you accepting that my argument is a decent one.

It was me who started the other thread which lead to this one, so of course I have concerns. They are concerns that will be closely monitored and if the time comes to leave Phuket we will leave.

Don't have a plan 'B' yet because I always have a base in the UK to fall back on, and I am hoping everything works out well in Phuket. It also highlights the point that has been raised in many threads before but has never been successfully answered in my opinion, of exactly where else in the world can you get what you get in Phuket for the same price? I don't have an answer to that and from what I've read, nor does anybody else.

[LivinLOS]

That's just it 'Some men'. You seem to be implying that the way things are in the UK is both guaranteed and the only way for kids to grow up and be successful. I think you have very narrow vision on this topic. Have you been to the UK recently? I think you are overrestimating exactly how decent and educated the average teenager is these days.

In this fiction we are talking about 'my' kid.. not any kid.. Anyone with my genetics would not be 'average' in any measure

Its been a year or so since I was back, but of the successful people I mentioned before only one of them was a uk person, they were a wide selection, Dutch, German, Central American, etc.. But they all shared that leader of men quality I mentioned, the self confidence that made others trust them and their abilities. Etc etc

I have always found it strange how people are so eager to marry a Thai person but then immediately want to point out the failings of their culture as you just did.

I better call my missus in and tell her shes just become Thai.. Whose assuming what now ?? Comedy gold.

I have always said that my kids will spend a lot of time in Europe as well as they grow up, so they will have all the experiences kids who grow up in the UK have as well but a whole lot more on top. You are always quick to point out the good things about growing up in the UK and the bad about Thailand, but you never seem able to acknowledge that both have plenty of the opposite as well, hence why I accuse you of having a narrow perspective of the topic.

I think if they are able to live between the two, not visit for a month once or so a year but actually live in both, that would be a great setup. Allowing to contrast and compare. Would make for many challenges to schooling tho to actually attempt that !!

They are amongst their peers! Other expat kids are their peers. They may be different peer group to the local Thai kids but so what. That's exactly the same in the UK. Private school kids will have their peer groups the same as the local comprehensive kids will and the local gang of gypsies living in the field do as well. I don't see the relevance.

Where are these over 16 peer groups hanging out ?? Because apart from a couple I have seen, being dragged around by their parents, who tell me that the bulk of their social time is playing xbox because they were not allowed to ride a motorbike (another huge topic) or go out the house alone (hes 16 for gods sake) and dont have anyone their age around to hang out with, I have seen very very few in 10 years. In fact the exact one I am thinking about, the family only lasted a year or two before packing back up to Oz.

Forum wont allow as many quote blocks..

You never answered my question so I will assume you don't have kids let alone 50/50 kids. I would strongly recommend that people thought twice about having kids with a Thai woman when they have such disdain for almost everything Thai. That I believe would be an unhealthy, unbalanced way to raise a 50/50 child.

Again, I am not living with a Thai woman (assumptions just keep coming dont they) or having 50/50 kids.. I figure if I have kids I would have to consider myself a grown up, and that would interfere with my Peter Pan complex. Plus if I did I would almost certainly not raise them beyond childhood here, for all the reasons i have said. As young kids fine, even lower secondary school ages, when they are more closely guided by parents again fine. But at the point when they need to go make their way in the world ?? To develop as young adults, it simply wouldn't be my choice.

You seem to have switched from debating the points I brought up to attacking the messenger.. You think its my fault (that I point this out ??), I have disdain, you wonder why I would etc.. Yet the points I raise are real, they exist, and theres not much a parent can do when that is the social fabric that surrounds you (your example of going home and living in both seems like you admit these issues are a problem and you dont have a solution to it). We as adults already have our moral compass set, we have gained our confidences, we have developed our social abilities. Its easier to not allow these things to build up, to not look down on a farmer because he has dark skin, to not think 'the poor' are to be driven into in our BMW's because they dared get in the important poo yais way.. Not having influences like that, which will exist in the thai private school setups, is very important IMO.

[HongKongPhooey]

In this fiction we are talking about 'my' kid.. not any kid.. Anyone with my genetics would not be 'average' in any measure

I figure if I have kids I would have to consider myself a grown up, and that would interfere with my Peter Pan complex.

Those two statements are exactly why I question how seriously I should value your input! You don't have kids and have no intention of having them, and you happily admit that emotionally you are not the parent type. Not exactly the perfect person to give advice on this thread.

I better call my missus in and tell her shes just become Thai.. Whose assuming what now ?? Comedy gold.

You have had Thai partners in the past. You aren't exactly shy when it comes to talking about yourself. I did presume you may have actually stayed with one of these partners. Apologies.

You seem to have switched from debating the points I brought up to attacking the messenger.. You think its my fault (that I point this out ??), I have disdain, you wonder why I would etc.. Yet the points I raise are real, they exist, and theres not much a parent can do when that is the social fabric that surrounds you (your example of going home and living in both seems like you admit these issues are a problem and you dont have a solution to it).

I don't think I was attacking you and apologise if that's how it came across. Me talking about going home is in no way me admitting that I have no solution to a problem. It's me pointing out that by having some contact with the other side of the world than to where you decide to live, can give 50/50 kids a very well balanced life, one that includes both the cultures which make up their heritage, by embracing the good, positive aspects from each. Instead of throwing a blanket over one of them and writing it off as having absolutely nothing to offer.

As I have said before, without being married to a Thai and without having any kids let alone half Thai kids, I don't believe you are in a position to know what would be best for them, and as I have said, we will have to agree to disagree.

[LivinLOS]

Those two statements are exactly why I question how seriously I should value your input! You don't have kids and have no intention of having them, and you happily admit that emotionally you are not the parent type. Not exactly the perfect person to give advice on this thread.

Just because someone makes a choice not to over burden this already distressed planet with yet more everything consuming people.. Doesnt mean that person cant have a valid idea on how they would choose to shape a consciousness. In fact someone whose thought about it, and made the choice not to be one, may have more valid reasoning than so many poorly thought through accidental parents.

I don't think I was attacking you and apologise if that's how it came across. Me talking about going home is in no way me admitting that I have no solution to a problem. It's me pointing out that by having some contact with the other side of the world than to where you decide to live, can give 50/50 kids a very well balanced life, one that includes both the cultures which make up their heritage, by embracing the good, positive aspects from each. Instead of throwing a blanket over one of them and writing it off as having absolutely nothing to offer.

So how can you do this 50/50 lifestyle and maintain any kind of education ?? Still not getting that part.

As I have said before, without being married to a Thai and without having any kids let alone half Thai kids, I don't believe you are in a position to know what would be best for them, and as I have said, we will have to agree to disagree.

Just because my opinions dont validate your preferred life choices doesnt make them any less real. I notice again your saying my view is invalid for external reasons without saying WHY those views are incorrect ?? Its kind of a head in the sand approach IMO.

[HongKongPhooey]

So how can you do this 50/50 lifestyle and maintain any kind of education ?? Still not getting that part.

I never said it was 50/50. You said that and ran with it. I said that my kids will spend a lot of time in Europe, meaning school holidays etc. Plenty of time for them to have friends/peers (which they already have) on both sides of the world. Plenty of time for them to take on board and learn all the good things from both cultures. My oldest at 4 has already spent plenty of time in both the UK and in Phuket. How can a kid who is half Thai and half English possibly benefit more than by doing that? My 4 year old has much more experience of the world and of different cultures than his 100% English counter parts. I can't see how you can possibly draw negatives from that??

Just because my opinions dont validate your preferred life choices doesnt make them any less real. I notice again your saying my view is invalid for external reasons without saying WHY those views are incorrect ?? Its kind of a head in the sand approach IMO.

Not at all. I'm simply saying that I don't agree with you. That's allowed isn't it? I'm saying that the negative aspects you believe exist, I don't believe will be a problem for me and my children. I'm saying that the things you believe are important, like being raised in a UK society, learning how to hustle and be a wheeler dealer type aren't important for my kids.

My kids are half Thai and half English, which makes them very different from kids who are 100% English. Why would my kids need to be raised in the same way you or 100% English kids were raised?

I know exactly what being raised in the UK entails, having been so myself, and I am 100% confident that there are much better more enjoyable, exciting, and more rewarding ways of going about it. It seems as if you would want your kids (hypothetical because it seems like you aren't having any) to be raised the exact same way you were. I want my kids to have a better life than me and I believe Phuket is a place that can make that happen.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but you have to accept that having decided not to spend the rest of your life with a Thai person and deciding not to have any kids and having been very vocally negative of Thailand and Thai people over the years has to make your opinion of less value to me. I accept it as your opinion, I just disagree, that's all there is to it.

[LivinLOS]

I never said it was 50/50. You said that and ran with it. I said that my kids will spend a lot of time in Europe, meaning school holidays etc. Plenty of time for them to have friends/peers (which they already have) on both sides of the world. Plenty of time for them to take on board and learn all the good things from both cultures.

Ahh as I suspected.. You mean a few weeks or months here or there, which is a far cry from living there, its a holiday basically.

Not at all. I'm simply saying that I don't agree with you. That's allowed isn't it? I'm saying that the negative aspects you believe exist, I don't believe will be a problem for me and my children. I'm saying that the things you believe are important, like being raised in a UK society, learning how to hustle and be a wheeler dealer type aren't important for my kids.

Self confidence isnt important for your kids ?? Self reliance ??? What I am talking about is not the making of deals, its giving them tools to be the kind of person that inspires trust in others, who can read others, etc etc etc.. Those skills are not easy to teach while living on a fathers handouts under their parents wing.

My kids are half Thai and half English, which makes them very different from kids who are 100% English. Why would my kids need to be raised in the same way you or 100% English kids were raised?

I dont think I have ever once said english.. You keep saying it.. I simply mean a society that the ideals where all are equals is respected, where the law is served with that ideal in mind, where judgments on class or skin color dont effect what kind of treatment you get from people in power.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but you have to accept that having decided not to spend the rest of your life with a Thai person and deciding not to have any kids and having been very vocally negative of Thailand and Thai people over the years has to make your opinion of less value to me. I accept it as your opinion, I just disagree, that's all there is to it.

Isnt the very fact that having made the conscious decision not to have kids, in Thailand or with a Thai person, is precisely the kind of thought process and evaluation that results from my opinion.. I mean its no mere accident I have got to this age and not got kids here, any more than its accident that someone else has them (usually). Its the result of lots of thought on the issue at hand.

[geriatrickid]

I said that my kids will spend a lot of time in Europe, meaning school holidays etc. Plenty of time for them to have friends/peers (which they already have) on both sides of the world. Plenty of time for them to take on board and learn all the good things from both cultures

No. Friendships at that age aren't made during a school holiday period. They are forged in the same school room month after month. Trust me, been there, done that. It doesn't work that way. Just ask a military brat.

[NamKangMan]

A good post HKP.

I think option No. 1 is unacceptable to me because it's a 300 baht a day wage, for the rest of their working lives. If I was to see my kid surfing all day and living on just a few baht and being a lazy bastard, I would have a problem with that.

It's great that you can provide for all the options I mentioned. You are more fortunate, and so are your children, than many on the island.

You originally questioned "crime and violence in 10 to 15 years time." If, and in my opinion, Phuket is going down the path to becoming another Pattaya, will you continue to live here and raise your kids here. If crime and violence (drugs, murders, assaults, prostitution etc etc) are out of control here, in the future, what is your "Plan B?" Or should I say, "Where is your Plan B for your family?" Have you even considered one, or is Phuket the be all and end all?

You have complemented my post and quickly changed the topic. I guess that's as close as I'm going to get to you accepting that my argument is a decent one.

It was me who started the other thread which lead to this one, so of course I have concerns. They are concerns that will be closely monitored and if the time comes to leave Phuket we will leave.

Don't have a plan 'B' yet because I always have a base in the UK to fall back on, and I am hoping everything works out well in Phuket. It also highlights the point that has been raised in many threads before but has never been successfully answered in my opinion, of exactly where else in the world can you get what you get in Phuket for the same price? I don't have an answer to that and from what I've read, nor does anybody else.

I haven't strayed from my point of view. There is no future for a 50/50 kid here. That's why we haven't heard from any. They are simply not here. I answered your question, under your old username. Bali "ticks all your boxes." All "Aliens" need a Plan B here. You just never know what can happen here.

Edited March 24, 2012 by NamKangMan

[LivinginKata]

4 off topic posts removed. Open your PM function LOS ...

[HongKongPhooey]

Ahh as I suspected.. You mean a few weeks or months here or there, which is a far cry from living there, its a holiday basically.

What do you mean 'As I suspected' I made it clear as day what I was talking about, it was you who then started talking about splitting the time 50/50. How can you live in two countries when kids are at school.

You make it sound like something out of the Jungle Book when you talk about kids being raised in Thailand. If you were talking about a kid raised in deepest Isaan who ventured to BKK twice a year then fair enough, but you really don't understand how my kids and many others are raised. 50/50 kids with family on both sides of the world will spend more than enough time in the West to be completely au fait with Farang society. They won't miss out on anything that's worth not missing out on.

When was the last time you investigated UK schools? Do you know what percentage of kids in British schools now speak English as a second language. It's very high I'll tell you that. If you see England how it is today and think that's a great place to raise your kids (that you're never having) then good for you. I disagree,

Anyway, what part of agree to disagree do you not understand.

I said that my kids will spend a lot of time in Europe, meaning school holidays etc. Plenty of time for them to have friends/peers (which they already have) on both sides of the world. Plenty of time for them to take on board and learn all the good things from both cultures

No. Friendships at that age aren't made during a school holiday period. They are forged in the same school room month after month. Trust me, been there, done that. It doesn't work that way. Just ask a military brat.

I don't see how that's relevant. Military kids move from country to country and school to school. That's nothing like what we're discussing here. There is a multitude of different kinds of friendships. Yes, the main ones will be with school friends and kids living near by, but who's to say you can't have other relationships. Shall I tell my kids grandparents they can't have a relationship with their grand kids because they only see them a few times a year? I know that isn't friends but the principal is exactly the same.

This isn't something I'm guessing. It's something that's happening right now. My kids have English friends in England. They have 50/50 friends in England, they have 50/50 friends in both BKK and Phuket. Yes they will see less of some of those friends in the future but they won't stop being friends and their influence will still be relevant to my kids social experiences as they get older.

What was a good thread has been bogged down with myself and two other members going round in circles. Anyone with a fresh perspective, now would be a good time to throw it in the ring and get the thread back on an informative track.

[seaeagle]

and get the thread back on an informative track.

Since I kicked this whole thread off, I'll have a go.........

I was asking about what late teenagers / those in their 20's are doing - NOT about relationship building and educational standards. For the latter, I'd probably suggest that, with lower class sizes, the education is likely to be better here, than in the average UK school.

BUT, I'm more interested in what you do with an education here. Go through an International School, or even one of the better govt, schools, in Phuket from Early years to IGCSE, and then what?

My opinion is that even with a higher ratio of teacher to students in the UK, and some of the social downsides you get in the west, the overall outcome for a student having these 'drawbacks' is infinitely better than the prospects of a school leaver / graduate staying in Thailand.

I'd also strongly argue that taking a child to UK in, say, their mid-teens to continue the final years of education and begin a career path, would be akin to taking a fish out of water. By that age, they've developed a personality, and I'm convinced they'd struggle in the less-forgiving and competitive west.

It's okay saying that, if you feel the need to move away from here in the future, you'll do so. But, how easy is that? If you own your house, and intend to move back to UK in 10 years, then I'd suggest you contact your estate agent right now!!

[HongKongPhooey]

I think we've all agreed that for the best opportunities they will most likely need to go back to the country of their Western Parent. That doesn't mean to say there aren't other options but most people will agree that having that as an available option is highly advisable.

That basically just leaves the second question whether you believe moving from one to the other to take advantage of these benefits will be detrimental to the children. I personally don't see that it will. As I have said before my kids have friends and relatives in the UK and they will always maintain a strong connection to the UK and they will always be aware as they are growing up that going back to the UK for such things is the norm, so it won't be a surprise. I don't see this fish out of water thing, unless your kids have had no contact with the West their whole life, then perhaps. Even then they will still just be the same as any other foreign student coming to the UK for the first time. Britain is full of them.

If staying in Thailand for further education and work is the only option you give your kids then yes, I think you will be doing them an injustice. That's not to say some people won't be able to make it work, but I personally wouldn't feel as if I had done any where near enough as a parent.

[NamKangMan]

and get the thread back on an informative track.

Since I kicked this whole thread off, I'll have a go.........

I was asking about what late teenagers / those in their 20's are doing - NOT about relationship building and educational standards. For the latter, I'd probably suggest that, with lower class sizes, the education is likely to be better here, than in the average UK school.

BUT, I'm more interested in what you do with an education here. Go through an International School, or even one of the better govt, schools, in Phuket from Early years to IGCSE, and then what?

My opinion is that even with a higher ratio of teacher to students in the UK, and some of the social downsides you get in the west, the overall outcome for a student having these 'drawbacks' is infinitely better than the prospects of a school leaver / graduate staying in Thailand.

I'd also strongly argue that taking a child to UK in, say, their mid-teens to continue the final years of education and begin a career path, would be akin to taking a fish out of water. By that age, they've developed a personality, and I'm convinced they'd struggle in the less-forgiving and competitive west.

It's okay saying that, if you feel the need to move away from here in the future, you'll do so. But, how easy is that? If you own your house, and intend to move back to UK in 10 years, then I'd suggest you contact your estate agent right now!!

A good post.

We don't know what the 50/50 kids are "doing" because whatever they are doing, they are not doing it on Phuket.

I disagree with HKP that there would be no 50/50 adults here because the International Schools have not been open long enough. The BIS openen in 1996. A graduate, at 18 years of age, in 1996, would be 34 years old now. There have been graduates ever since. It appears, none have stayed on Phuket. There is a reason for this, and I'm suggesting it's the lack of career opportunity and earning capacity here.

Edited March 25, 2012 by NamKangMan