New Deportation Condition Changes!

[Maestro]

The trustworthiness of the member Badbanker, who started this topic, has been ascertained and confirmed by the management of ThaiVisa. Further posts doubting this will be deleted unceremoniously.

[Maestro]

It may be opportune to post here the relevant text from an English translation of the Immigration Act regarding the deportation procedure, ie the first paragraph of Section 55:

Section 55 : Aliens being deported under this Act shall be sent back by any

conveyance or route as the competent official may consider appropriate.

Therefore, the fact that in the past a deportee was usually allowed to chose his destination and now will be sent to the country that issued the travel document (usually a passport) with which he entered Thailand is a shift in policy that is clearly within the scope of the law.

[PoodMaiDai]

Curious, who picks up the travel tab to deport you to your country of origin if you don't have the funds to do so?

Always wondered how deportations worked financially.

[gaucho]

My take on this is that if you are a criminal you may very well be deported back to your "home" country or origin of passport.

Sir if you overstay your visa you have broken Thai law and are considered a criminal, as you will go to court and as such if you are arrested and found to be overstayed you will be deported to your country of origin! This is guaranteed!

There was the case of a British man who had a stroke and overstayed his visa 6 months. Could not walk or talk but was booked for overstay in court and I paid his fine so he could get back to the IDC rather than Jail. Family in the UK and the Embassy got him out quickly.

Breaking the law by overstaying makes you a criminal.

PS I got to go to court for a bit be back later.

yes that is right if u overstay for any reason they can be quite difficult .the worst case i ever heard about was a canadian ....if i remember correctly ....who was knocked down by a transport bus on his way to the airport ....incidentally the bus driver was driving really fast and the wrong way and was intoxicated.... the poor tourist spent over 6 months in hospital and looked like THE MUMMY .....with all the plaster ...his arm was at a almost straight angle ... how he was able to bath and bathroom i only hazard a guess ..the poor guy was made to pay a fine at the airport for overstaying .... in relation to profiling certain ethnic areas its because these areas result in most of the problems

[terryq]

Curious, who picks up the travel tab to deport you to your country of origin if you don't have the funds to do so?

Always wondered how deportations worked financially.

The deportee pays for his own ticket, or family/friends purchase the ticket on his behalf. If he cannot pay I believe he remains incarcerated in Thailand until he can.

edit to add ...Some Embassies may assist in the ticket purchase but, as far as I know, only after some guarantee from family/friends in home country that they are going to get their money back.

Of course embassies vary in what assistance they give their Nationals.

Edited March 19, 2012 by terryq

[Maestro]

Relatives, friends or a charitable organisation, rarely an embassy or consulate, may advance the money for the ticket. If nobody does, you languish in IDC until you die. If you are deported because you did not have a visa or an onward ticket when you needed one, the airline that carried you to Thailand can be made to pay.

[Badbanker]

As always you are responsible for your expenses for deportation. They being court fines, plane tickets home and transport costs to the airport. Sadly today there are many people awaiting deportation at the IDC (Immigration Detention Center) of every nationality who do not have the money for a ticket home.

As there is no government social service in Thailand that can assist, a private foundation waits till you have been in the IDC for 6 months before arranging a ticket home. So no staying till you die! Yes the USA and some other countries will lend you the money for a ticket and you will have to sign a loan agreement to repay it. The UK will not! A lot of sad old UK men in the IDC at the moment!

You will be deported to the country on which passport you have entered on regardless of your residence status.

People with a court case be it civil or criminal can get the court to order an extension of stay of up to 6 months or even more if the case is dragging out. If you are under bail the arresting police officer must similarly order immigration to extend your visa by 3 months. You do have to ask the court or the police officer to do this and they must under Thai law.

Maestro you are right in the airline that carried you to Thailand has a responsibility to also remove you. In practise it will require a law suit to get them to do this. Please also be aware that any airline that deports you may very certainly refuse to carry you in the future.

One of the biggest problems I have at the moment is that older Northern European men cannot stand winters in their home country on the street and habitually end up in Thailand living on the street drinking their meager pension. One person has been deported 9 times and will go home and buy a ticket and fly back in 3 or 4 days in the same new clothes we got him, to do the same thing again.

[F4UCorsair]

Badbanker, you seem very knowledgeable, and thanks for sharing your knowledge. I have only one small point to make, and that is aircraft Captains, or any crew, won't be holding passports. The days of Captains being in charge of 'safe hand' documents are long gone. I'm not sure how it will be done if flights aren't direct, perhaps airport police or similar authorities will take charge at intermediate ports.

[Badbanker]

Badbanker, you seem very knowledgeable, and thanks for sharing your knowledge. I have only one small point to make, and that is aircraft Captains, or any crew, won't be holding passports. The days of Captains being in charge of 'safe hand' documents are long gone. I'm not sure how it will be done if flights aren't direct, perhaps airport police or similar authorities will take charge at intermediate ports.

I realise what you are saying but the truth is that Thai Immigration is handing a deportation and I believe any airline that accepts a deportation has to be prepared to take responsibility for the deportees travel documents as a condition.

Be aware many airline will not accept deportees because of the strenuous conditions attached and the possibility for deportee misbehavior and violence.

Some of the deportees have contacted me and thanked me for my work but are extremely angry that their home countries have treated them in this manner. Just remember it was one lovely British man who jumped ship in New Delhi to return to Cambodia that caused all of this!

Edited March 20, 2012 by Badbanker

[limbos]

Am I correct in understanding that if you get caught in-country with an overstay of more than 5 days that you may end up in an IDC and deported to your country of which you hold a passport but if you make it to immigration at an airport, with overstay and have an onward ticket and are willing to pay the 20K fine, you're scott free?

[Badbanker]

Am I correct in understanding that if you get caught in-country with an overstay of more than 5 days that you may end up in an IDC and deported to your country of which you hold a passport but if you make it to immigration at an airport, with overstay and have an onward ticket and are willing to pay the 20K fine, you're scott free?

Yes!

[Mario2008]

This reminds me of a report fom a few days ago: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/537244-overstay-nightmare/page__view__findpost__p__5135064

he was "told" to go to court for his overstay, before being allowed to leave.

[RichardinBKK]

Many Thanks to BadBanker for his useful post, and Maestro (post #50) for clearing the air. This is a sterling example of exactly the kind of information I hoped to have access to when I joined Thai Visa.

Well done gentlemen, much appreciated and useful advice. ++++++++++1 !!!!!!!!!!

To folks on TV who have reacted emotionally to news they do not want to hear...May I share a thought?

In light of recent events (Soi 71 bombing for example, negative press about the safety of Thailand...etc...) nothing could be more logical than Thailand exercising their right to exploit existing laws (not new laws people...existing...) to flush out people who they do not want here.

Badbanker alluded to this in a way that was so polite, perhaps it was missed. Let me be a bit less politically correct. I am American. In the US it is common to do ethnic and racial profiling by law enforcement agencies. Spend an afternoon at any international airport, look at a long line of people going through security and bet who will get the full pat down, body scan, luggage searched and "private interview." If you want to lose all you money, bet on the two 6 foot tall blonde blue eyed executives in the suits with a Rolex's. If you want to win 95% of the time, bet on the two Middle eastern gentlemen, Sikhs (Americans see the turban and freak out) and Africans (also African Americans.)

racial profiling is so common in the States, even normal street cops enforce "DWB" random car stops (Driving While Black) but I do not want to drift into that swamp right now.

Now imagine you are a bad person who came here to do harm to the Kingdom. Wouldn't it be just a bit foolish to do border runs to extend your visa???? Brilliant. ...an international terrorist saying...please let me be photographed and documented on the Cambodian border before I do my dirty work. Not!

So, Thailand is reserving the right to ask a person they don't like the look of to show a passport, legal stamp...etc. And, when that can not be produced, instead of a protracted legal hearing, pack them up and send them home. Also, for our friends who enjoy causing civil unrest via bar fights, drug use, drunken rants...they too may find they are face to face with authorities asking "for your papers please."

Is that fair to all? Nope. But it is very pragmatic, efficient and effective.

So, as many have pointed out...if you are keeping your paperwork up to date...this should be a non-event.

There is one thing I do and wonder what others think. I do not e-v-e-r let my passport out of the lock box. I carry a complete photocopy of it if I am headed out for a late night (A time where I may be "interviewed") I also keep a movie on my phone that starts with my face, goes to the passport, goes through it page by page (with a close up of my Visa0 and back to my face. An Iranian friend of mine showed that type of photocopy and movie to a policeman last month at 3 AM ... and he was satisfied that it had value. (Where i got the idea)

Why was he asked for his papers? Ummm...did I mention he is Iranian? (Lives here 7 years on a completely legal retirement Visa...)

Sorry for the long posting...i am just so happy to see badbanker share really important information. Sir, if you read this, please do not be discouraged by negative posters and doubters. Most of us wish TV had more of this type of helpful information. Thank You !

[RichardinBKK]

Am I correct in understanding that if you get caught in-country with an overstay of more than 5 days that you may end up in an IDC and deported to your country of which you hold a passport but if you make it to immigration at an airport, with overstay and have an onward ticket and are willing to pay the 20K fine, you're scott free?

Yes!

Badbanker...Thank you for your helpful posts. One question...is it still (500 baht) x (number of days overstay) ? A 5 day overstay should be 2,500 baht...yes? It seem like people think there is a flat 20,000 baht fee. I believe there is a 20,000 baht maximum fee (Which contributed to the idea that staying years and paying 20,000 was actually the cheap way out....)

[limbos]

Am I correct in understanding that if you get caught in-country with an overstay of more than 5 days that you may end up in an IDC and deported to your country of which you hold a passport but if you make it to immigration at an airport, with overstay and have an onward ticket and are willing to pay the 20K fine, you're scott free?

Yes!

Am I correct in understanding that if you get caught in-country with an overstay of more than 5 days that you may end up in an IDC and deported to your country of which you hold a passport but if you make it to immigration at an airport, with overstay and have an onward ticket and are willing to pay the 20K fine, you're scott free?

Yes!

Thanks for the confirmation, keep up the good work

[Jawnie]

Am I correct in understanding that if you get caught in-country with an overstay of more than 5 days that you may end up in an IDC and deported to your country of which you hold a passport but if you make it to immigration at an airport, with overstay and have an onward ticket and are willing to pay the 20K fine, you're scott free?

Yes!

Good question and good answer.

I believe, however, that it is in the discretion of immigration officials whether you go to detention or not, and whether you are deported, or not. A large part of their decision likely will rest on your attitude at the time....and theirs, also. I think it's safe to assume you won't be carted off to jail and deported on the sixth day of an overstay. However, this provision of the law grants the power and authority to immigration enforcement officials to do just that if the situation calls for it at their discretion.

Similarly, if you pay the 20K baht as you leave the airport, you will also need to sign a document admitting you violated Thai immigration law and that document will contain the exact circumstances of the violation. Your overstay and related information will henceforth remain on record in Thailand. So, while you may leave at that time, scott free, there's no telling how it might affect any future attempts to enter Thailand.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Jawnie

[RichardinBKK]

Am I correct in understanding that if you get caught in-country with an overstay of more than 5 days that you may end up in an IDC and deported to your country of which you hold a passport but if you make it to immigration at an airport, with overstay and have an onward ticket and are willing to pay the 20K fine, you're scott free?

Yes!

Good question and good answer.

I believe, however, that it is in the discretion of immigration officials whether you go to detention or not, and whether you are deported, or not. A large part of their decision likely will rest on your attitude at the time....and theirs, also. I think it's safe to assume you won't be carted off to jail and deported on the sixth day of an overstay. However, this provision of the law grants the power and authority to immigration enforcement officials to do just that if the situation calls for it at their discretion.

Similarly, if you pay the 20K baht as you leave the airport, you will also need to sign a document admitting you violated Thai immigration law and that document will contain the exact circumstances of the violation. Your overstay and related information will henceforth remain on record in Thailand. So, while you may leave at that time, scott free, there's no telling how it might affect any future attempts to enter Thailand.

Please help me...I was under the impression that the formula is (number of days over stay) times (500 baht) up to 20,000 Baht.

Has that changed? Because it will really freak a lot of people out if they think a simple 5 day over stay will cost 20,000, and all these hassles...when (at least recently) you stepped up to the counter, paid days x 500 baht and left. The only thing was to get to the airport really early to do all the required paperwork and allow for a calm and measured response time by immigration authorities.

Where the abuse came in, was people saying, "it cost a lot more than 20,000 baht and a whole lot of hassles to stay here for two years...screw it...I will just pay the maximum fine and leave.)

Others have more knowledge than I, but it would be helpful to clear up this point, because it may be making what is generally "business as usual' into a quite a dramatic story.

[Badbanker]

As I think we are all aware much of the enforcement of Thai law depends on the discretion of the Police Officer involved. I have seen Police Officers feel sorry for people that are months overstay and not prosecute them, but by so doing prolong the agony the overstayer has.

Embassies can't help you get home till you are in hospital, a police cell, jail or the IDC. I have begged Immigration police at times to arrest foreigners sleeping on the street in the upper Sukumvit area. They are after transnational crime people! Many sleeping on the street are very very sick. Immigration are now starting to arrest people sleeping on the street.

Many local police officers just ignore the farang and hope he will go away or get sorted out himself.

Sadly pensions paid to many expats do not allow them to live anything like a reasonable life in their home country. So they come to Thailand and as some of these people have an alcohol dependency problem they are shortly out of accommodation and money reduced to begging to feed their addiction.

[bangkokburning]

I stand by my asertion that no one is going to jail, have their ticket tossed in the bin, wait weeks for ajudication/new ticket/funds transfer becasue they were 4 days overstay. Ain't no way - sorry.

Whether they catch you in the street, you are serious overstay, beligerent, etc.. that may be another matter.

In the end - Thailand wants you OUT and putting you in the monkey house for weeks solves absolutely nothing. Fines are now set at a maximum of B20K so figure how much is the fine? B1500? Wow, that could just be solved in line - like it is now and ever shall be.

Even Indonesia does not jail people a few days and even weeks overstay.

I reiterate - if Thailand goes this route and there are honest incidents reported in the press Thailand can kiss its tourism industry goodbye. At best it will be damaged by 10-20% eternally as people shorten their stays to ensure they are out by day XX.

I am not disputing the post and certainly not the poster, just trying to bring context. Thailand simply is not going to jail people on holidays for overstaying a week or even two and I defy anyone to prove that it has thus far happend or will with certainty happen in the future.

This action is directed at criminals, longstay overstayers, paupers and vagrants, potential politicals and the like.

Ain't gonna happen.

PS: People living on the street should be arrested and deported BUT if you have been in Thailand long enough, you'd know that a penniless farang now becomes the cops problem. They don't want this guy langishing in their jails to feed and clothe. As you state, they might even be ill and Thailand (even cops) do have a soft spot for mentally ill. But more over - best the problem left to rot then to scoop it up and have to deal with it. Then it is THEIR problem and in the end - they can release to Cambodia OR buy a ticket home. OOPS they can't release to Cambodia anymore becasue of this law. So they will in the end - not arrest unless criminal.

Edited March 20, 2012 by bangkokburning

[Badbanker]

Am I correct in understanding that if you get caught in-country with an overstay of more than 5 days that you may end up in an IDC and deported to your country of which you hold a passport but if you make it to immigration at an airport, with overstay and have an onward ticket and are willing to pay the 20K fine, you're scott free?

Yes!

Good question and good answer.

I believe, however, that it is in the discretion of immigration officials whether you go to detention or not, and whether you are deported, or not. A large part of their decision likely will rest on your attitude at the time....and theirs, also. I think it's safe to assume you won't be carted off to jail and deported on the sixth day of an overstay. However, this provision of the law grants the power and authority to immigration enforcement officials to do just that if the situation calls for it at their discretion.

Similarly, if you pay the 20K baht as you leave the airport, you will also need to sign a document admitting you violated Thai immigration law and that document will contain the exact circumstances of the violation. Your overstay and related information will henceforth remain on record in Thailand. So, while you may leave at that time, scott free, there's no telling how it might affect any future attempts to enter Thailand.

Please help me...I was under the impression that the formula is (number of days over stay) times (500 baht) up to 20,000 Baht.

Has that changed? Because it will really freak a lot of people out if they think a simple 5 day over stay will cost 20,000, and all these hassles...when (at least recently) you stepped up to the counter, paid days x 500 baht and left. The only thing was to get to the airport really early to do all the required paperwork and allow for a calm and measured response time by immigration authorities.

Where the abuse came in, was people saying, "it cost a lot more than 20,000 baht and a whole lot of hassles to stay here for two years...screw it...I will just pay the maximum fine and leave.)

Others have more knowledge than I, but it would be helpful to clear up this point, because it may be making what is generally "business as usual' into a quite a dramatic story.

NO 20k is the maximum your can pay if you have a valid passport and ticket out.

I think we all need to ask what is the rational reaction from a rational country when its laws are abused?

The laws are tighten or changed to stop abuse of the system those choosing to.

[jambodave]

lets be careful out there

[RichardinBKK]

I stand by my asertion that no one is going to jail, have their ticket tossed in the bin, wait weeks for ajudication/new ticket/funds transfer becasue they were 4 days overstay. Ain't no way - sorry.

Whether they catch you in the street, you are serious overstay, beligerent, etc.. that may be another matter.

In the end - Thailand wants you OUT and putting you in the monkey house for weeks solves absolutely nothing. Fines are now set at a maximum of B20K so figure how much is the fine? B1500? Wow, that could just be solved in line - like it is now and ever shall be.

Even Indonesia does not jail people a few days and even weeks overstay.

I reiterate - if Thailand goes this route and there are honest incidents reported in the press Thailand can kiss its tourism industry goodbye. At best it will be damaged by 10-20% eternally as people shorten their stays to ensure they are out by day XX.

I am not disputing the post and certainly not the poster, just trying to bring context. Thailand simply is not going to jail people on holidays for overstaying a week or even two and I defy anyone to prove that it has thus far happend or will with certainty happen in the future.

This action is directed at criminals, longstay overstayers, paupers and vagrants, potential politicals and the like.

Ain't gonna happen.

I do agree with you, and am concerned now by the 'flavor' of recent posts. I respect badbanker, and enjoy updates. However, if i were a new comer to Thailand and read this, my impression would be that I was in a lot of trouble for staying a week too long at the beach. The formula is days of overstay times 500 baht, and as you say...is 99.9% of the time an absolute none event.

When I read his post about begging police to arrest vagrant Farang, i must admit it sent up a red flag, since he would be in a perfect position then to "rescue' them.

Go to the airport an hour earlier than usual, and on a 5 day overstay...pay the 2,500 Baht, and please do come back soon!

I did post a rather long theory previously that said that Thailand may be using this to profile groups they fear ... since the Soi 71 bombing.

Anyway, I agree with you that unless you are really creating a problem, this is just a fine that is paid. Also, folks seem to be tossing around this 20,000 baht number like that is the fine...it is not the fine..it is the CAP on the fine.

[lopburi3]

Off-topic post removed - this is about Thailand - not the US or any other country.

[Lotusbluete]

Hallo Bad Banker,

the one question that come to my mind reading all this: If someone is caught for overstay, even incarcerated in the IDC for a certain period (let's say until he find means to pay for deportation) etc. all this does apparently not lead to any sort of BLACKLISTING. You report about a man that has done the "round", as I would like to call it, for 9 times now. That seems for me in a way inconsequent by the Thai authorities.

The fact is that you are deported from Thailand to your country of origin. But this, the country of your origin, has no matters whatsoever in the deportation and lets you return to Thailand maybe with the next available flight (provided that financial means are available).

My direct questions again: Did you ever come across a case that due just to deportation somebody was accordingly blacklisted, i.e. prevented from ever enter Thailand again?

[Badbanker]

I stand by my asertion that no one is going to jail, have their ticket tossed in the bin, wait weeks for ajudication/new ticket/funds transfer becasue they were 4 days overstay. Ain't no way - sorry.

Whether they catch you in the street, you are serious overstay, beligerent, etc.. that may be another matter.

This action is directed at criminals, longstay overstayers, paupers and vagrants, potential politicals and the like.

Ain't gonna happen.

PS: People living on the street should be arrested and deported BUT if you have been in Thailand long enough, you'd know that a penniless farang now becomes the cops problem. They don't want this guy langishing in their jails to feed and clothe. As you state, they might even be ill and Thailand (even cops) do have a soft spot for mentally ill. But more over - best the problem left to rot then to scoop it up and have to deal with it. Then it is THEIR problem and in the end - they can release to Cambodia OR buy a ticket home. OOPS they can't release to Cambodia anymore becasue of this law. So they will in the end - not arrest unless criminal.

I am speaking for Bangkok and have heard of difficult situations in the provinces, especially Pattaya which is a different planet.

Basically I agree with your post. 99% of the farangs arrested are arrested because they are in a state, situation or place in which they are acting in way or involved in activities that come to the attention of the authorities.

I knew of a British woman who lived for 20 years without a visa till she decided it was time to leave Thailand for a while. There are by Immigration's records thousands like this!

The big issue is that overstay laws are being majorly abused and there is going to come a time when they will have to be modified. I know it is being looked at from a variety government ministries to cause the least impact on all concerned especially the tourist industry.

[harrry]

I thought the purpose of deportation was removal from the country. I can understand countries requiring it to be to a specific country if the country concerned pays the fees (As would be the case in a deportation from Australia.) I cannot unstand why when the fare is paid by the individual. Either way the person is outside the problem of the country.

In any case I wish to applaud the efforts of BadBanker, his efforts are much needed. In many cases people helping clients who may or may not have bought things on themselves start looking too much from the authorities viewpoint rather than the individual. I am glad BB is not like this.

Edited March 20, 2012 by harrry

[Badbanker]

My direct questions again: Did you ever come across a case that due just to deportation somebody was accordingly blacklisted, i.e. prevented from ever enter Thailand again?

People who are deported or blacklisted are people who have been convicted of a crime (not overstay) people that an international arrest warrant on them and people that are deemed not of good character.

Actually immigration would like to back list some of the habitual overstayers but do not have the legislation.

Lovely Ugandan ladies working the streets of Pattaya have their visas revoked but can come back as soon as they have a new visa.

It is difficult to get blacklisted. Some embassies have long lists of people and begged immigration to black list them but they won't!

[harrry]

Often we confuse deportation in the sense of returning a person to a country in regard to a request from that county (eg Assage) and expulsion from a country. It appears Thailand does not distinguish between the two. Is this true BadBanker?

[Lotusbluete]

Hallo Bad Banker,

Many thanks for your answer. But I have – unfortunately – to say that I did not understand your comment.

In a previous post you wrote: Quote: “Sir if you overstay your visa you have broken Thai law and are considered a criminal, as you will go to court …” and “Breaking the law by overstaying makes you a criminal” Unquote.

In your recent answer you seem to distinguish between deportation as such and being a criminal (see above). Does it mean Thai Immigration or Thai courts have no authority to blacklist criminals?

Because consequence is for me that we are back to square one. It means you overstay, you are deported and if you have the necessary means, you are back within a shortest period of time. So no worries at all for those who, for what reasons so ever, overstay and have the financial means for a return flight.

Again, Bad Banker, thanks a lot for your time to answer all the questions!

Edited March 20, 2012 by lopburi3
change to normal font

[Badbanker]

I thought the purpose of deportation was removal from the country. I can understand countries requiring it to be to a specific country if the country concerned pays the fees (As would be the case in a deportation from Australia.) I cannot understand why when fare is paid by the individual. Either way the person is outside the problem of the country.

Till the end of September 2011 you could be deported to almost anywhere your nationality had no right of refusal to entry. Then along came Mr. ACMW (identity known) who was a UK national released on bail or license to appeal on a charge of human trafficking of Thai women. He fled to Thailand! A warrant for his arrest was issued by the UK Government and then through Interpol given to Thai Immigration.

He was arrested and I had the responsibility of translating and informing him his visa had been withdrawn by the Royal Thai Government and he was black listed from entering Thailand and was to be deported.

His friend bought him a ticket and he was put on a plane, passport in hand with a stop in New Delhi. He jumped ship in New Delhi and caught a flight to Cambodia where he still resides due to a lack of extradition treaty with the UK.

This infuriated the UK and Thai Government to a degree you really can't comprehend and a month or so after this the strict deport to country of origin order was issued.

PM me if you want to know who he is!