New Car, But Engine Is Constantly 'Pinging' (Or 'Knocking')

[WarpSpeed]

All good points, but knocking isn't just about fuel mixture it's also about mechanical and spark timing, in fact it's more about mechanical and spark timing then it is even about fuel grade so proper programming should be able to correct it for the most part.

Warpy is correct. Forget fuel, the management ECU with all it's sensors ''should'' pick up pinking and adjust the timing to compensate. End of story. UNLESS, there is a problem with the hardware.

I want to qualify this though by also adding a disclaimer in that if the vehicle in question requires a higher octane rating and you use lower octane gasoline the sensors may not have enough range to adjust in that case, but here that doesn't apply, it's the reverse and pinging(knocking)is not characteristic of higher octane fuels as a rule.. Edited February 28, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[Kwasaki]

I'm not a mechanic with 20+ years experience but I am an engineer with 30+.

My 2c worth, shoot it down if you will:-

Modern engines have to run very lean to meet emissions regulations. This means the mixture is right on the edge of detonation, far, far closer to the line than anything we worked on when we were young (yes I repaired and tuned my own engines, because I had to, we had no money and several kids). The tuning is kept on that fine line by the engine management system and its array of sensors.

I suggest that what our highly skilled mechanics are detecting as detonation is just that, very light detonation, but it is within the design parameters of the engine and its management system. A surmission that is supported by the fact that putting higher octane fuel in (which would have killed such a light a pink dead in my day) has zero effect, the management system tunes the mixture and timing so the engine is again right on the line.

When I had my first new car (it was a Rover Montego, I was 30 something) it sounded like it was pinking on acceleration, but putting 4* in it had no effect and the man at the garage said it was normal to hear a light pink under load. 80,000 miles later said car was still on the same engine and still making the same light tinkle. Then I wrapped it round a very solid tree, this cured the pinking dead

Anyone like to add?

ํำYea well !! Crossy great post you are a classic the same as some of the cars I use to drive too.

I use to fix my cars as well because I couldn't afford local garage repairs let alone main dealers.

Maybe the OP is on to something about ECU being a bit out of adjustment to make fuel compatibility.!!

A new ( Rover Montego ) so you were the one.

Did you ever try 5* ?? it use to make a difference but very minor to my BL motor at the time.

With respect !!! I guess a lot of the young guys on here have not experianced the early motors with points, distributors, rectifiers, dynamo's, different types of carbs, grease ball joints, spoke wire wheels, changing oils in gearbox, back axles etc etc, not to mention the rotting bodywork, everything is computerized more or less these days but that said much more reliable but they can still not be right.

Finding someone in Thailand who is prepared to go beyond the boundaries to find the real problem is the crucks of the matter for farangies I guess.

[transam]

I'm not a mechanic with 20+ years experience but I am an engineer with 30+.

My 2c worth, shoot it down if you will:-

Modern engines have to run very lean to meet emissions regulations. This means the mixture is right on the edge of detonation, far, far closer to the line than anything we worked on when we were young (yes I repaired and tuned my own engines, because I had to, we had no money and several kids). The tuning is kept on that fine line by the engine management system and its array of sensors.

I suggest that what our highly skilled mechanics are detecting as detonation is just that, very light detonation, but it is within the design parameters of the engine and its management system. A surmission that is supported by the fact that putting higher octane fuel in (which would have killed such a light a pink dead in my day) has zero effect, the management system tunes the mixture and timing so the engine is again right on the line.

When I had my first new car (it was a Rover Montego, I was 30 something) it sounded like it was pinking on acceleration, but putting 4* in it had no effect and the man at the garage said it was normal to hear a light pink under load. 80,000 miles later said car was still on the same engine and still making the same light tinkle. Then I wrapped it round a very solid tree, this cured the pinking dead

Anyone like to add?

ํำYea well !! Crossy great post you are a classic the same as some of the cars I use to drive too.

I use to fix my cars as well because I couldn't afford local garage repairs let alone main dealers.

Maybe the OP is on to something about ECU being a bit out of adjustment to make fuel compatibility.!!

A new ( Rover Montego ) so you were the one.

Did you ever try 5* ?? it use to make a difference but very minor to my BL motor at the time.

With respect !!! I guess a lot of the young guys on here have not experianced the early motors with points, distributors, rectifiers, dynamo's, different types of carbs, grease ball joints, spoke wire wheels, changing oils in gearbox, back axles etc etc, not to mention the rotting bodywork, everything is computerized more or less these days but that said much more reliable but they can still not be right.

Finding someone in Thailand who is prepared to go beyond the boundaries to find the real problem is the crucks of the matter for farangies I guess.

Remember when we had 98 Leaded gas , I used 110 oct gas in my ride to fix possible PING/PINK with Nitrous Oxide.

[Kwasaki]

With respect !!! I guess a lot of the young guys on here have not experianced the early motors with points, distributors, rectifiers, dynamo's, different types of carbs, grease ball joints, spoke wire wheels, changing oils in gearbox, back axles etc etc, not to mention the rotting bodywork, everything is computerized more or less these days but that said much more reliable but they can still not be right.

Finding someone in Thailand who is prepared to go beyond the boundaries to find the real problem is the crucks of the matter for farangies I guess.

Remember when we had 98 Leaded gas , I used 110 oct gas in my ride to fix possible PING/PINK with Nitrous Oxide.

98 Yep, but not 110 !!! I remember the good old five star which had an octane rating of 101 and I changed the timing on my MBG GT B1800 engine to take 98 but at the end of those days you couldn't beat a good old dollop of lead err !

Edited February 28, 2013 by Kwasaki

[transam]

With respect !!! I guess a lot of the young guys on here have not experianced the early motors with points, distributors, rectifiers, dynamo's, different types of carbs, grease ball joints, spoke wire wheels, changing oils in gearbox, back axles etc etc, not to mention the rotting bodywork, everything is computerized more or less these days but that said much more reliable but they can still not be right.

Finding someone in Thailand who is prepared to go beyond the boundaries to find the real problem is the crucks of the matter for farangies I guess.

Remember when we had 98 Leaded gas , I used 110 oct gas in my ride to fix possible PING/PINK with Nitrous Oxide.

98 Yep, but not 110 !!! I remember the good old five star which had an octane rating of 101 and I changed the timing on my MBG GT B1800 engine to take 98 but at the end of those days you couldn't beat a good old dollop of lead err !

Admit l had the 110 delivered to my house, oooops, think it was 115.

[WarpSpeed]

I'm not a mechanic with 20+ years experience but I am an engineer with 30+.

My 2c worth, shoot it down if you will:-

Modern engines have to run very lean to meet emissions regulations. This means the mixture is right on the edge of detonation, far, far closer to the line than anything we worked on when we were young (yes I repaired and tuned my own engines, because I had to, we had no money and several kids). The tuning is kept on that fine line by the engine management system and its array of sensors.

I suggest that what our highly skilled mechanics are detecting as detonation is just that, very light detonation, but it is within the design parameters of the engine and its management system. A surmission that is supported by the fact that putting higher octane fuel in (which would have killed such a light a pink dead in my day) has zero effect, the management system tunes the mixture and timing so the engine is again right on the line.

When I had my first new car (it was a Rover Montego, I was 30 something) it sounded like it was pinking on acceleration, but putting 4* in it had no effect and the man at the garage said it was normal to hear a light pink under load. 80,000 miles later said car was still on the same engine and still making the same light tinkle. Then I wrapped it round a very solid tree, this cured the pinking dead

Anyone like to add?

ํำYea well !! Crossy great post you are a classic the same as some of the cars I use to drive too.

I use to fix my cars as well because I couldn't afford local garage repairs let alone main dealers.

Maybe the OP is on to something about ECU being a bit out of adjustment to make fuel compatibility.!!

A new ( Rover Montego ) so you were the one.

Did you ever try 5* ?? it use to make a difference but very minor to my BL motor at the time.

With respect !!! I guess a lot of the young guys on here have not experianced the early motors with points, distributors, rectifiers, dynamo's, different types of carbs, grease ball joints, spoke wire wheels, changing oils in gearbox, back axles etc etc, not to mention the rotting bodywork, everything is computerized more or less these days but that said much more reliable but they can still not be right.

Finding someone in Thailand who is prepared to go beyond the boundaries to find the real problem is the crucks of the matter for farangies I guess.

I'm on the cusp, Old enough to have experienced all of this and still young enough not to need Viagra.. Can't put up a tongue out smilie so here is the code anyway :

Cool... It worked..Don't know enough of the smilie codes though..

Edited March 1, 2013 by Crossy

[Crossy]

For those struggling with the forum since the 'upgrade' try clearing your browser cache and power off/on your router (usual Thaivisa solution).

There do also seem to have been issues with the ISP caching old page versions.

Others have been switched to the basic editor mode (most of the edit bar is greyed out), switch back with the switch icon top left of the edit bar and it should stay put.

Yes, I had a (the) Montego 2.0 GTi estate in red, one of the last of the line when they were using up bodyshells and parts, all the trimmings. By then they had finally sorted the handling, just in time to discontinue the marque

No Warpie, I don't need the blue pills, yet!

[funlovinkid]

Hi Lickey, thanks for the suggestion. The car has an automatic transmission, and yes, I actually have tried what you suggest, but it doesn't seem to ping when I do this. The pinging normally occurs when accelerating lightly while the car is moving relatively slowly, but in a high gear. For example, if the transmission has automatically shifted into 3rd or 4th gear, and then I allow the car to slow a bit, and then lightly accelerate, it will often ping because the engine is lugging a bit under the circumstances.

One thing that I've been pondering is whether it's possible to confirm whether the ECU (and/or any computer chips inside) are correct for the car. In that regard, I've heard from several Thais that a lot of computer chips get swapped around inside used mobile phones which are sold in the mom 'n' pop phone shops. The customer thinks they're buying quality equipment for a good price, but the internal components are inferior quality (and performance), and of course, much cheaper for the seller.

Because I didn't notice any pinging when I first bought the car, and only began to notice it at around the 6-month mark, I can't help but wonder if something related to the ECU got swapped out at some point. Because the newer cars will burn 10% or even 20% ethanol gasohol fuels, which are considerably cheaper than the benzene equivalent, I can't help but wonder if there's a black market for the ECU's (or the relevant chips inside) from the newer cars. Assuming these parts are physically compatible with older cars, the potential cost savings for the buyer could be substantial over time. If my 2011 ECU (or chips) were replaced with older versions at some point, it might explain the onset of the pinging.

Sorry if I'm sounding a little paranoid here, but I know how popular it can be to "cut corners" in this country, and as I mentioned earlier, I'm grasping at straws. Does anyone know how I can verify that I have the correct ECU and/or internal chips?

About the chips what these thais say using mobile phone chips this is typical thai ghost story.

No phone chip can be used in a car there functions are very different.

Your car wouldn t run at al if they would fit in the socket what I also doubt a lot.

What could have happend is they swapped it with a chinese tuning chip or so, one ment for the car or another car wich is the wrong one or bad quality.

Hi Roadrunner, just a point of clarification: my point about the mobile phones was that the phone shops will often sell a used mobile phone with inferior (and non-standard) computer chips inside. The buyer makes the decision to buy the phone based on the outward appearance (i.e., say, an iPhone 4), but the internal components aren't original, and in fact have been swapped out with inferior stuff. The buyer has no idea, of course, because they have no way to determine what is an original computer chip for an iPhone 4, and they probably wouldn't bother to look inside anyway. They then spend a lot of time trying to figure out why the performance of their slightly used phone is so poor.

I wasn't suggesting that anyone is trying to use mobile phone chips in Toyota ECU's, but rather, was trying to make the point that, if it's possible to swap ECU's from new-model Toyotas with ECU's from older Toyotas, or even swap out some of the chips inside (assuming they're removable), then there would probably be a financial incentive for dishonest people to do this. So far, all the work on my car has been done by Toyota dealers, but that doesn't mean that a clever (and dishonest) Toyota mechanic doesn't know how to make a buck on the side by selling off my 2011 ECU (or chips) and replacing it (them) with older versions. As the car owner, I would probably be clueless, much like the used mobile phone buyer. The mobile phone buyer gets bad phone performance, and the Toyota owner gets an engine that pings, possibly leading to early engine failure. But the vast majority of car owners wouldn't recognize the sound of pinging, and wouldn't have a clue of the significance anyway.

[transam]

Do something for me. In the morning, leave your door open and your ear outside. When you start your engine there is a short time when the oil must reach all parts under pressure. Start the car and tell me if there is excess noise BEFORE the oil has pressurized the engine.

[funlovinkid]

I'm not a mechanic with 20+ years experience but I am an engineer with 30+.

My 2c worth, shoot it down if you will:-

Modern engines have to run very lean to meet emissions regulations. This means the mixture is right on the edge of detonation, far, far closer to the line than anything we worked on when we were young (yes I repaired and tuned my own engines, because I had to, we had no money and several kids). The tuning is kept on that fine line by the engine management system and its array of sensors.

I suggest that what our highly skilled mechanics are detecting as detonation is just that, very light detonation, but it is within the design parameters of the engine and its management system. A surmission that is supported by the fact that putting higher octane fuel in (which would have killed such a light a pink dead in my day) has zero effect, the management system tunes the mixture and timing so the engine is again right on the line.

When I had my first new car (it was a Rover Montego, I was 30 something) it sounded like it was pinking on acceleration, but putting 4* in it had no effect and the man at the garage said it was normal to hear a light pink under load. 80,000 miles later said car was still on the same engine and still making the same light tinkle. Then I wrapped it round a very solid tree, this cured the pinking dead

Anyone like to add?

Hi Crossy, thanks for the input. I was already pondering the same thing. I must say that the pinging that I've been hearing from my engine has in fact been typically very light. Sometimes I believe I'm hearing the pinging, and to confirm, I switch off the air conditioner, just so I can hear better. There is even a newly-resurfaced road near my house that makes for very little road noise, and I often check for pinging while I happen to be on that road because it's easier to hear. So the pinging isn't normally very loud, but this fact doesn't give me much comfort. The car now has around 12K kilometers on it, and I'm wondering if this issue will drive me bonkers over the life of the vehicle.

I was riding in a friend's 2008 Vios recently, and heard no pinging whatsoever. Hmm, maybe I should offer to buy his ECU.

[funlovinkid]

All good points, but knocking isn't just about fuel mixture it's also about mechanical and spark timing, in fact it's more about mechanical and spark timing then it is even about fuel grade so proper programming should be able to correct it for the most part.

Warpy is correct. Forget fuel, the management ECU with all it's sensors ''should'' pick up pinking and adjust the timing to compensate. End of story. UNLESS, there is a problem with the hardware.

A point of clarification: if the pinging is caused by the mixture igniting before TDC -- and before the spark -- then the reason would be that the mixture is too lean, not that the spark occurred too early in the cycle. Either way, you're right in that the ECU should be able to adjust to prevent this from happening. In this case, it should be adjusting the fuel/air mixture, not the spark timing.

If in fact the fuel/air mixture is too lean, this might be because (as Crossy mentions) the 2011 emissions requirements are more stringent than before, and because Toyota is attempting to meet them by leaning up the mixture. Because of this possibility, I've also pondered whether Toyota is riding a fine line between emissions requirements and engine durability. I've been involved in class-action lawsuits before, and it's always more of a headache than it's worth. I also doubt if such a thing would exist in Thailand.

Maybe I should buy a Honda?

Edited March 1, 2013 by funlovinkid

[funlovinkid]

Do something for me. In the morning, leave your door open and your ear outside. When you start your engine there is a short time when the oil must reach all parts under pressure. Start the car and tell me if there is excess noise BEFORE the oil has pressurized the engine.

Hi TransAm, thanks for the suggestion. I did what you suggested, and the engine sounds are very standard when starting. No unusual rattling or anything else, the engine sounds the same when starting as it does when running normally.

[transam]

Do something for me. In the morning, leave your door open and your ear outside. When you start your engine there is a short time when the oil must reach all parts under pressure. Start the car and tell me if there is excess noise BEFORE the oil has pressurized the engine.

Hi TransAm, thanks for the suggestion. I did what you suggested, and the engine sounds are very standard when starting. No unusual rattling or anything else, the engine sounds the same when starting as it does when running normally.

OK, thats one of my theories out the window.

[Kwasaki]

I was riding in a friend's 2008 Vios recently, and heard no pinging whatsoever. Hmm, maybe I should offer to buy his ECU.

Well !! For sure I reckon you have got your answer now then !!

[WarpSpeed]

Do something for me. In the morning, leave your door open and your ear outside. When you start your engine there is a short time when the oil must reach all parts under pressure. Start the car and tell me if there is excess noise BEFORE the oil has pressurized the engine.

Hi TransAm, thanks for the suggestion. I did what you suggested, and the engine sounds are very standard when starting. No unusual rattling or anything else, the engine sounds the same when starting as it does when running normally.

Find a stretch of road that runs next to a nice block wall, shut off everything you don't need (not including A/C leave it on, the more low rev engine load the better) put it in low gear (like second if a manual or gently hold the brake while accelerating with an auto to stress the engine) and drive while listening to the sounds bouncing off the wall.

Thanks Crossy at least it seems the emoticons and other options are now available again.. I don't believe you about the blue pill though because you gave it away by telling me what color it was! , until then, I had no idea!!

Edited March 2, 2013 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

I was riding in a friend's 2008 Vios recently, and heard no pinging whatsoever. Hmm, maybe I should offer to buy his ECU.

Well !! For sure I reckon you have got your answer now then !!

Maybe a partial one at least, see if he'll allow you to use it to test yours? Have a professional switch them and see if he develops your issues and if your issues are resolved then? If he's a good enough friend it shouldn't be a tough ask...

[WarpSpeed]

All good points, but knocking isn't just about fuel mixture it's also about mechanical and spark timing, in fact it's more about mechanical and spark timing then it is even about fuel grade so proper programming should be able to correct it for the most part.

Warpy is correct. Forget fuel, the management ECU with all it's sensors ''should'' pick up pinking and adjust the timing to compensate. End of story. UNLESS, there is a problem with the hardware.

Maybe I should've bought a Honda?

There fixed that for ya...

[WarpSpeed]

All good points, but knocking isn't just about fuel mixture it's also about mechanical and spark timing, in fact it's more about mechanical and spark timing then it is even about fuel grade so proper programming should be able to correct it for the most part.

Warpy is correct. Forget fuel, the management ECU with all it's sensors ''should'' pick up pinking and adjust the timing to compensate. End of story. UNLESS, there is a problem with the hardware.

A point of clarification: if the pinging is caused by the mixture igniting before TDC -- and before the spark -- then the reason would be that the mixture is too lean, not that the spark occurred too early in the cycle. Either way, you're right in that the ECU should be able to adjust to prevent this from happening. In this case, it should be adjusting the fuel/air mixture, not the spark timing.

If in fact the fuel/air mixture is too lean, this might be because (as Crossy mentions) the 2011 emissions requirements are more stringent than before, and because Toyota is attempting to meet them by leaning up the mixture. Because of this possibility, I've also pondered whether Toyota is riding a fine line between emissions requirements and engine durability. I've been involved in class-action lawsuits before, and it's always more of a headache than it's worth. I also doubt if such a thing would exist in Thailand.

Maybe I should buy a Honda?

You've confused my post just a bit here, it's precisely because the fuel mixture is too lean on low octane fuels that detonation occurs and higher octane fuels do not which is the premise of my post..If you already have a timing issue that is creating this detonation then it is compounded by lower octane fuel, and timing adjustment is a major part of an ECU's function..

[Kwasaki]

I was riding in a friend's 2008 Vios recently, and heard no pinging whatsoever. Hmm, maybe I should offer to buy his ECU.

Well !! For sure I reckon you have got your answer now then !!

Maybe a partial one at least, see if he'll allow you to use it to test yours? Have a professional switch them and see if he develops your issues and if your issues are resolved then? If he's a good enough friend it shouldn't be a tough ask...

Really what I meant to say was he should take the bloody thing back to Toyota and get them to fix the dam thing.

I haven't got a car, my wife's car is a Yaris but the same engine as the Vios I believe but don't know if the Vios has a fly by wire thottle.

Replying to where Honda is mentioned my daughters ' City ' is a very refined 1.5 to the Yaris but a totally different ride I would guess the Vios is too.

Edited March 2, 2013 by Kwasaki

[transam]

Another theory of mine . Locate the ECU, disconnect the plugs from it, leave a few minutes, reconnect. Sounds daft but was told to do this on my Volvo cos of stuff. It worked.

[transam]

[WarpSpeed]

Another theory of mine . Locate the ECU, disconnect the plugs from it, leave a few minutes, reconnect. Sounds daft but was told to do this on my Volvo cos of stuff. It worked.

Well, that is standard reset procedure but more difficult for the layman to do then just disconnecting the battery as the ECU is usually hidden under some panels somewhere. My RX8 actually has to have the brake pedal stomped a number of times with the key on but the engine not running to completely reset the ECU even after an ECU disconnect to re-time the crank sensor. Admittedly it's a rotary but the example is that it's difficult to know EXACTLY what the reset procedures are for a given model and manufacturer as they throw in their own curve balls, I'd suggest doing some internet searching putting up his issues and model as key words, I think he'll get lot more info that way across the board, aren't these Thai models sold in other markets as well like Aussie for example?..

[Kwasaki]

Farty Tours, I've downloaded a lot of that series, that said I still speak to cars and my Versys mrs thinks I am mad too !

[funlovinkid]

I tried what you suggest above (thrashing the car with a branch), but unfortunately, it still pings.

[transam]

And l thought that would do the trick. ...................................Wrong again eh................

[Crossy]

I tried what you suggest above (thrashing the car with a branch), but unfortunately, it still pings.

But now it knows its place

[chuenyongman]

Hi, anyone with a new Mitsubishi Lancer 1.8 litre engie model GLS LTD?

I am permanently experiencing the problem of the engine not achieving working temperature until it has covered 3 kilometres.

Normally a car achieves normal working temperature about one kilometre. The dealer states mine is normal.

I had tihis problem with a car about 1981 and the dealer could not help me. I took it to another dealer and the service manager was a cluey guy

and he soldered up half of the thermostat by-pass hole and from then on it behaved perfectly.

I wish to contact any one that has the same model car as I. Or if they know anyone who has the same model as I .

Thank you for any help.

[Ace of Pop]

Has the Mrs left a bag of Ping Pongs under the seat. .

[BSJ]

Has the Mrs left a bag of Ping Pongs under the seat. .

Shouldn't that be a bag of Ping Ping Ping Pongs?

[Kwasaki]

Hi, anyone with a new Mitsubishi Lancer 1.8 litre engie model GLS LTD?

I am permanently experiencing the problem of the engine not achieving working temperature until it has covered 3 kilometres.

Normally a car achieves normal working temperature about one kilometre. The dealer states mine is normal.

I had tihis problem with a car about 1981 and the dealer could not help me. I took it to another dealer and the service manager was a cluey guy

and he soldered up half of the thermostat by-pass hole and from then on it behaved perfectly.

I wish to contact any one that has the same model car as I. Or if they know anyone who has the same model as I .

Thank you for any help.

I think you should go back to a recommended Mitsi dealer, maybe better to start another topic.

Messing around with thermostats is not a good idea, it should be checked to see if it is the correct one.

You need a workshop with a car diagnostic computer to check out other related things aswell.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Kwasaki